I think today I actually transitioned out of the "armchair model railroader" role when I actually assembled the first set of wall brackets for my n-scale layout and mounted the first one on the wall. The photos below show the four brackets that I preassembled in the garage, while the last two show the first bracket mounted in all its glory:
It's funny, after years I have been planning and planning and planning, finally I went out and bought the lumber and dived in and all of a sudden I had brackets. Why didn't I do this years ago?!?
Jamie
P.S.: I must give credit to Bruce Faulkner and his CSX Shenandoah Division n-scale layout, upon which the basic design of my benchwork is based. Looking at Brian's benchwork construction progress photos on his website really convinced me that the ideas bouncing around in my head might actually work. Thanks, Brian!
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loathar wrote:I know your excited to make some progress and I hate to cast a cloud of gloom on that, but I think that bracket design might tend to sag once you start putting some weight on it.
When I read your post, I thought, "Uh-oh, what did I do wrong?" Then I looked at the pictures above and realized that it is really hard to get a sense of the actual size of the brackets. The arms look much longer than they really are--they are only 10 1/4" in length. In other words, the shelves will only be 11" deep (including the fascia framing). The brackets are built with 1x3 dimensional lumber and are spaced at 16" intervals (on each wall stud). This seems to be more than adequate, but will see how it goes moving forward.
OK. (your there and I'm not) I'd just hate to see you go through all that work and run into a sagging problem. Cork, track, foam, ballast, wire, switch motors, buildings, grass, glue, PLASTER, trains, autos are all pretty light by themselves, but can add up to a bunch of weight pretty quick.
Did you ever consider those stamped steel "L" shelf brackets? Is that a three level layout or a two with the top level for lighting?
I had the same thought go through my mind.
Take a piece of 1x2 and put a diagonal brace on each support arm. You may need to extend the wall plate to do this for the bottom bracket. Another option would be a piece of plywood, cut in a triangle and mounted like a gusset plate for each arm. This would force you to drill holes for your wires running along the layout, but at the same time, it gives you neat "cable runs" between brackets.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Yikes! You guys are scaring me to the point where I think I am going to get home and find that the 1x3 arm is drooping down towards the floor! I guess now I really don't know which way to go; I have based my construction techniques on several layouts that have been in operation for numerous years without problems (one even used 1x2 instead of 1x3 members). Each of these joists/arms will only be supporting less than 1.5 square feet of layout, will I really have a serious sag issue? I did consider using the metal brackets, but did not go that way becuase even at $2 each, when multiplied by 3 per wall stud and about 50 wall studs to attach to, that's about $300 for just the brackets alone, then I still have to build the framing to sit on the brackets to support the layout. Not that I wount spend the $$$, but that seemed like overkill both financially and construction-wise.
However, this is my first significant layout and you guys certainly have much more experience than I do. What if I were to use 1x3 members ripped from 3/4" plywood instead of simple pine lumber? Would the laminated layers of the plywood be enough to overcome the sag experienced when using traditional lumber?
Thanks for the info so far and I am glad I posted pics after installing the first bracket and not the 40th!
The problem isn't the wood, and my guess is that you could have used 1x2 without sacrificing anything. But, you're going to have an issue with the connection between the horizontal pieces and the vertical piece mounted on the wall. You've got 3 screws there, but they are all within an inch or so of each other. If you apply a small amount of vertical force to the end of the support, you've got a long lever which will twist those screws in the soft pine. Once that happens, that joint will be loose forever.
My layout is a table on wheels, with a foam base. When I first started, it was very light and easy to push around, even on the carpet. Now, though, with scenery, track and trains on top, it takes a lot more effort to push this thing from one place to another. Yes, your layout will weigh a lot more than just bare wood and foam.
MisterBeasley wrote: The problem isn't the wood, and my guess is that you could have used 1x2 without sacrificing anything. But, you're going to have an issue with the connection between the horizontal pieces and the vertical piece mounted on the wall. You've got 3 screws there, but they are all within an inch or so of each other. If you apply a small amount of vertical force to the end of the support, you've got a long lever which will twist those screws in the soft pine. Once that happens, that joint will be loose forever.
Ah...OK this does make sense. Going to go back to the drawing board and see what kind of modification I can come up with taking in to account all of the previous concerns and comments above. Jamie
Yep. What Mr. B said. Those 3 screws on the arm make for a weak fulcrum/anchor point. Some good wood glue on that joint "might" help, but you might want to do some more thinking on it before you spend anymore $$$ on that idea.
Didn't mean to rain on your parade.
PS-Whatever you decide on, you might want to consider painting/staining them before you anchor them to the wall.
loathar wrote: Yep. What Mr. B said. Those 3 screws on the arm make for a weak fulcrum/anchor point. Some good wood glue on that joint "might" help, but you might want to do some more thinking on it before you spend anymore $$$ on that idea.Didn't mean to rain on your parade.PS-Whatever you decide on, you might want to consider painting/staining them before you anchor them to the wall.
I would much rather have you rain on my parade now than have layout rain all over the floor of the train room later (breathes sigh of relief). Good news is I have only invested about $40 in lumber so far, and if it can not be used for primary framing members, it can certainly be used for secondary supports such as risers, front boards, backdrop mounting, etc.
As for the painting/staining, the framing members will be completely out of view (theoretically ) when the layout is finished. In the current plan, the wall brackets extending below the lower deck will be obscured by skirting hung from the lower deck, the few inches protruding above the upper (staging) deck will be out of view to everyone unless you are over 6'-9" tall, and the backdrop will cover the exposed brackets between the decks. The arm/joists will not be visible using normal viewing angles since the front fascia will act as a viewblock. At least that's the plan--will see how it all works out in the end!
OK, think about this: Using 3/4 inch birch plywood (cabinet grade) and making the L brackets in one piece by cutting them out with a saber saw might be a better move. You could also make single L brackets this way, then screw them to the vertical wall brace where you want them. When you cut them, you can make the outer parts thinner (taper from thicker inside to thinner at the outside as desired) and round the inside corner where the vertical meets the horizontal.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Jamie,
For what my opinion is worth, I'd continue with what you've started. I might be tempted to glue AND screw the brackets together (Gorilla glue is great for this!).
I don't think you are going to have that much weight on these brackets. Spaced 16" apart, they should be more than sufficient to hold 11" wide shelves without sagging.
What kind of shelf were you planning on using? For my magazine collection, I used metal brackets every 16" and 5/8" shelving. They've been up for years and there is NO sag on any of them! I think magazines are a lot heavier than your layout would be.
I'm all in favor of over-engineering, but I think you've already done that! Keep going and keep the forum posted on your progress.
Darrell, quiet...for now
gandydancer19 wrote: OK, think about this: Using 3/4 inch birch plywood (cabinet grade) and making the L brackets in one piece by cutting them out with a saber saw might be a better move. You could also make single L brackets this way, then screw them to the vertical wall brace where you want them. When you cut them, you can make the outer parts thinner (taper from thicker inside to thinner at the outside as desired) and round the inside corner where the vertical meets the horizontal.
I have pretty much decided based on the feedback above and conversations with some carpenter and woodworking friends that I am going with the same design, but will use ripped 3/4" finish grade hardwood plywood (oak or birch as you suggest) instead of soft pine dimensional lumber. If you take a look at my original post in this thread, you will see a link to a layout by Bruce Faulkner that I based my design on (well, it would be more accurae to say that I copied the design but replaced the plywood with plain old pine thinking the shallower depth would justify this move). In fact, when I change to plywood, I will be using the exact same construction materials and methods that Bruce and his crew used, once again the exception being my shelf depths are 11" while his is 16" - 18" or so. I have to think that the dimensional stability of the laminated hardwood layers in the plywood will offset nearly all (but not all) tendencies for sag that it seems I would get if I stuck with the pine. Bruce's layout has been going strong for 6+ years now without problem so one would think this validates his construction techniques.
As for cost, I can get a 4' x 8' sheet of hardwood plywood for about $50, but I should be able to get about 19 ripped 1" x 3" x 8' boards out of it, so about 2.5 times what I would pay for pine, but obviously worth it if I would be "pining" for something better otherwise (sorry could not resist the pun).
dgwinup wrote: Jamie,For what my opinion is worth, I'd continue with what you've started. I might be tempted to glue AND screw the brackets together (Gorilla glue is great for this!).I don't think you are going to have that much weight on these brackets. Spaced 16" apart, they should be more than sufficient to hold 11" wide shelves without sagging.What kind of shelf were you planning on using? For my magazine collection, I used metal brackets every 16" and 5/8" shelving. They've been up for years and there is NO sag on any of them! I think magazines are a lot heavier than your layout would be.I'm all in favor of over-engineering, but I think you've already done that! Keep going and keep the forum posted on your progress.Darrell, quiet...for now
In flat areas such as towns, I will probably have the track and scenery atop a 2" layer of extruded foam. In the hilly areas, I will use laminated spline roadbed and plaster over cardboard web for scenery. I also do not think this is a lot of weight, but it does seem to be the opinion of many on here and a few of my carpenter friends that I will have sag issues. I am going to heed this prudent advice and go to the plywood option; again thankfully I posted this before I went much further! I will keep everyone updated as I move forward and will also update my blog since it has been a few weeks now! Thanks for the advice--I feel like I am in pretty good hands when asking for help on this board and just hope that one day I can return the favor by sharing what I learn along the way. Jamie
While its good to err on the side of caution, you've got to take into account that stuff said here will seem very, very exaggerated in your mind. In reality, even if you had any sagging, it would be like... an inch or two. Especially since you're in N-scale, with only 11" deep shelves. The only thing is that the 3 screw joint on the joist supports jutting out from the wall would probably become weak over time, without either some wood glue or a small support structure.
I haven't really checked out or read in depth the solution you've decided to go by, but as long as you get some more support, you'll be fine. Those kind of fulcrum joints are weak on their own without some sort of "hypotenuse" supports to create a triangle structure.
Keep at it though dude. You're well on your way. The hardest thing in the WORLD is getting started. Just like writing a paper. But once you get started, you realize how easy it all is and that you've been magnifying the difficulty 10-fold in your mind.
loathar wrote:Ripped hardwood would work better. I'd definitely use some good wood glue too.
Screwed & glued...check!
DeadheadGreg wrote: Keep at it though dude. You're well on your way. The hardest thing in the WORLD is getting started. Just like writing a paper. But once you get started, you realize how easy it all is and that you've been magnifying the difficulty 10-fold in your mind.
Thanks and amen to the part about getting started!
yougottawanta wrote:After reading your response I realized that I neglected to give you a piece of information that I take for granted. That is spacing for supports. We almost never install braces every 16 inches. A common spacing we use is one bracket every two feet if any kind of load is being put on the shelf. You can go every 32 inches in this case since the load is so light. If your wall studs are 16" oc (On Center ) this will work fine.I would recommend installing a piece of wood on the wall if you use the metal brackets and then fasten the metal brackets to that.
I may actually stick with the 16" oc spacing even though it is probably overkill, mostly because it will give me a bracket that I can mount the backdrop to and a joist I can mount track risers to. Of course, the particular wall shown above is load bearing so it was framed by the home builder before we moved in--the stud spacing is more like a string of random numbers between 10 and 20 rather than a nice even 16. Before I finished that room, I replaced a stud on that wall that looked more like a twisted licorice stick instead of a piece of lumber! Jamie
The cross-members on my table benchwork are spaced at 16 inches. I probably could go with 2-foot spacing, but there are other considerations than just supporting the weight. When you've got a foam base, you can't easily fasten stuff below. So, I find it very convenient to have 16-inch supports to attach terminal blocks, or to fasten wires to.
Also, the closer spacing gives you more solid places to attach risers.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
MisterBeasley wrote: The cross-members on my table benchwork are spaced at 16 inches. I probably could go with 2-foot spacing, but there are other considerations than just supporting the weight. When you've got a foam base, you can't easily fasten stuff below. So, I find it very convenient to have 16-inch supports to attach terminal blocks, or to fasten wires to.Also, the closer spacing gives you more solid places to attach risers.
Agree completely. Well said
Update! I spent the last few days starting over with my benchwork using boards ripped from plywood instead of plain old pine lumber. Wow! The brackets are obviously sooooooooo much better in quality...I am really glad I switched to this method based upon the sound advice given by the members of this forum. I have posted a few pics below and have included a complete construction update on my CSX Dixie Line* blog. Thanks again everyone! Jamie
*Since my last update, I have switched prototypes from the CSX former Clinchfield route to the current CSX route between Atlanta and Nashville via Chattanooga. After much debate, I concluded that the former Clinchfield--while still one of my favorites--just did not afford the switching possibilities that I wanted to include in my operations. Fortunately, I can use the exact same track plan in the "new" layout that I had planned to use previously, so I did not lose any work that had been done prior to the change.
You know, all of the advice that's been given thus far about good benchwork construction practices has been pretty sound. That having been said, in seeing your brackets with the short outstanding legs and tight spacing, you'll likely find that, should you decide not to build the layout, you could use those brackets for shelves to display your prized bowling ball collection!
Nice work, and keep those progress picture coming!
Jim
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
mononguy63 wrote: You know, all of the advice that's been given thus far about good benchwork construction practices has been pretty sound. That having been said, in seeing your brackets with the short outstanding legs and tight spacing, you'll likely find that, should you decide not to build the layout, you could use those brackets for shelves to display your prized bowling ball collection!Nice work, and keep those progress picture coming! Jim
Jim, This is VERY eerie...but I made almost the same comment to my wife when she looked at the completed brackets for the first time yesterday. I told her that if we sell the house and the new owners don't like trains we can pull up the tracks and market it as shelving for a bowling ball collection...spooky! Better to overbuild than underbuild, plus the benchwork will go to 18" deep along two of the walls. Still, it is incredibly solid; not even the slightest wiggle on any of the cantilevered joists (the same could not be said for the few pine brackets that I managed to install). Jamie
Autobus Prime wrote:PS:You know, you could call the attached brackets an "art exhibit". Give it some sort of postmodern name. I suggest "Fabrication No. 1".
Haha! I need to get those front boards installed before I have to start calling them "The Slashers"! Jamie
Pasadena Sub wrote:This is VERY eerie...but I made almost the same comment to my wife...spooky!
Great minds think alike!
Though if you're thinking like me, you might consider counseling...