- Harry
How in the world did the fire department find out that you have an illegal layout?
I work as an Emt and know a lot of firemen I will check into this for you within the next day or so and I'll do some reasearch for you on state fire codes. what state is the layout in?
This sounds crazy, I'd hate to see you lose your layout over this.
You say you live in an apartment building, is it the Land Lord who is telling you this?
I'll have to check this out because my layout is a 7'X7' and is constructed out of the while foam that is used to insulate the walls of walk in freezers.
I'll be in touch, please don't tear it down until I look into this for ya, I know how much work goes into these things.
Jess Red Horse.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
jsoderq wrote:I live in an apartment subject to fire deparment inspections. I have to remove the layout (4x8) as it is against fire code to have exposed foam. It must be enclosed by drywall or paneling or the like.
Would covering it with Sculptamold or Hardshell do the job?
What a load of you-know-what.
Like Jess said: how'd this guy find out about your layout? Did you tell him about it or maybe someone dimed you to the building owners. Either way, don't get rid of the layout. Do some research, maybe even get a lawyer to check into this. I'd be wary of your neighbors for the time being - someone may have it in for you.
I think you're getting railroaded (sorry about that). If indeed foam is such a fire hazard, then all of us that use even Woodland Scenics ground foam or suchlike are in trouble.
de N2MPU Jack
Proud NRA Life Member and supporter of the 2nd. Amendment
God, guns, and rock and roll!
Modeling the NYC/NYNH&H in HO and CPRail/D&H in N
The building code in these parts also specifies that foam insulation be covered with drywall (not with panelling, though) and I believe that it's because of the fumes released when the foam burns. I was going to use foam for the second level of my layout, but plywood is cheaper and I find it easier to work with, too.
Wayne
MisterBeasley wrote:The issue is probably not the flammability, but rather the toxicity of the smoke if the foam is in a fire supported by other flammable material.
True. But this guy better not have any OSB wood in his place - the glue they use in that stuff releases formaldehyde when burned. You'll still die, but your body will be preserved. Point is, there's lots more toxic stuff in a dwelling than just the foam, if indeed that is the op's real problem to begin with (see my other post here).
A few minutes on the NFPA website reading about the legitimate issues of fire protection related to foam insulation tells me this is a bona fide issue. iIs this issue so dangerous to our health and safety that those who advocate the use of foam should be reminded of their responsibliity to warn us of how to properly protect our family from that danger? Similar to the warning, before you cut plywood, make sure you are wearing eye protection.
And if we have chose to use some, just how do we rmake our use of foam safe?
I for one do not want to have my local fire department citing me for having a fire hazzard in my basement. And I want a fire with the toxic issues even less. I think Mr. Beasley is correct.
This is not a joke or something to be rationalized away.
Joe Daddy
Maybe I am out to lunch but it seems to me that the building codes only apply to materials used in construction of the building. The foam on a layout would not apply as it is not part of the building. The foam used in your furniture will burn and release toxic fumes when it burns. I don't suppose the firedepartment wants you to get rid of the sofa.
government!!!
Bluhills is correct. Otherwise, everyone with a stryofoam cooler in their house would be in violation, or even the foam trays your pork chops come on.
There are codes concerning construction that may apply to...construction.
This may be coming from your land lord, but it seems foolish. As a landlord myself, I'd be more concerened about scenery materials in the carpeting than a fire hazard.
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
The typical HO layout I'm talking about is 10 X 20 feet or larger, contains perhaps a half dozen or more sheets of 1-2" foam and is for all intents and purposes built into the house.
Next time you go camping take a piece of 3/4 plywood and a piece of 1" foam both about a foot square. Get the fire going and throw both into the fire at the same time. Notice how long it takes the foam to be totally consumed vs the plywood.
At the minimum, this thread speaks to the need of equiping our train rooms with an approved fire extinguisher and at least one smoke alarm.
Foam melts and disolves into a flamable liquid/gas very quickly. Wood retains its shape, initial strength and form for a much longer time frame.
Anyone experience or know someone who lost all or part of their layout due to fire?
Joe
joe-daddy wrote: Anyone experience or know someone who lost all or part of their layout due to fire?
I wonder if the Woodland Scenic foam products would be affected by this?? They're supposed to be made to a different formula so they're non-toxic when heated (like when cutting with a hot wire cutter).
This argument is horse-hocky.
The OP's inspector was wrong, at least as it would apply to a home.
Building (fire) codes cannot prohibit you from having flammable materials in your home.
Period.
Some more info. This was the fire department doing the inspection, it has nothing to do with the owners. The issue is not toxic smoke. Fire departments currently never enter a fire scene, no matter how small , without breathing apparatus because of the toxic fumes.
The issue is the ease with which the foam will ignite - at very low temp and with a very small ignition source. Some, but not all, foam is treated to not maintain ignition by itself. Covering the foam with something not readily igniteable will suffice, but all surfaces including the underside would have to be covered. The rule is no exposed foam. as far as the coolers, etc, they do not fall under the regulations because of the size and are considered "personal items".
Midnight Railroader wrote: This argument is horse-hocky.The OP's inspector was wrong, at least as it would apply to a home.Building (fire) codes cannot prohibit you from having flammable materials in your home.Period.
although I would use a stronger term than horse-hocky!! You got one of those inspectors that think they're God!! Thankfully they are few & far between!! If he does not relent when you explain that the layout is no different than your bed or other furniture, call his superior. If not in your municipality, your state will have a governing body in charge of building inspectors. In NJ it's the DCA, Diovision of Consumer Affairs - check your state. In 40+ years of contracting I only had one serious run-in with an inspector - one phone call to the DCA ended that in 24 hours!!
What city was this in?
As a former habitability safety building inspector for the City of Los Angeles I also inspected apartment units for code violations, including citing tenants for unsafe conditions, one aspect of my job was fire code enforcement, and this is complete horse-hockey to me also!
If "flamable contents" were that big an issue, half the contents of American homes would have to be chucked out, so what that inspector said was overstepping the bounds of his enforcement IMHO. Modern blue or pink foam are engineered not to flame, remember they are building products, they may melt and smoke when exposed to flame but the entire room would have to be on fire for that to occur, then I think you have a bigger issue to worry about.
I had ran into a couple model train layouts in the course of my inspections, unless there is shredded foam particles all over the place or some other aspect that could create a life/safety issue like blocking required exits, then it falls under the catagory of contents just like furniture, and you CAN NOT order someone to remove furniture or other personal belongings unless there is a clear and present hazard. Even then your enforcement has limits. If the room its in is reasonably clean then there was no issue.
There are far worse conditions out there that this inspector should be worried about. Far greater risk from the flammable foam in old sofas and matresses than from the amount of foam on a stupid train layout, yet if its still in good condition, I had NO authority to order removal of old furniture, if I cannot order old furniture or old gas stoves or old gas in-floor heaters - as long as they were in good order, I do not see how this inspector could order the removal of something like a model train layout.
Keep the layout, I would fight it.
Have fun with your trains
jsoderq wrote:I live in an apartment subject to fire deparment inspections. I have to remove the layout (4x8) as it is against fire code to have exposed foam. It must be enclosed by drywall or paneling or the like. The inspector said some foam is even stenciled with the fact that it has to be covered. Latex paint will not be enough to cover the foam. Also, he pointed out you may be voiding your fire insurance with a foam layout as it is a known fire hazard, same as illegal wiring. I don't want to hear all the crap about government etc. Anyone else ever run into this? Might be worth checking with your insurance man if he is a friendly guy.
If paint wouldn't be enough to cover it, I would use a 2" brush and cover the foam with one or two coats of pre-mixed joint compound and then paint it a tan latex color. This will give some texture to the foamboard more so than just paint.
Everyone stores flammable or toxic material in their houses or apartment. There is no way around it. I would have to believe that this pertains to building materials that are in the structure of your apartment and not your personal belongings.
The point is that, as a tenant, if you are in violation of local codes and ordinances, your landlord may have recourse, including evicting you. The net result is...no layout for the purposes of this topic. Remember that such codes and ordinances are for the protection of everyone who might be affected by your decisions. This includes first responders, the landlord, the families all around you in the building, and the owners and occupants of adjacent buildings.
I would be consulting my insurance policy holders and a lawyer. The insurance facts will be free, the lawyer will run you anywhere from $200-thousands, depending on the billable hours it takes until you decide to throw in the towel or until you prevail.
It may just be cheaper to move in the long run.
My
Ahah, the Inspectors!! Had one like that when I was having my music room put on the house about thirty years ago. He'd be out every day to watch the contractors like a Hawk, kept delaying everything because of imagined building code violations. And this was very reputable, well known Sacramento Valley contracting company.
I finally got so angry at his high-handed Pontificating, I called my father, who just happened to be in charge of Construction and Maintenance for the Tahoe National Forest. Explained the situation to him, he drove down from Nevada City, looked around the construction site--lo and behold, said Inspector came out and started his usual Pontificating. Dad took him aside, had a few quiet words with him, Inspector went away and never came back, room got finished. If the rest of the house was up to the standards of my music room, it could survive a 9.0 earthquake!
Plain and simple--you landed an Inspector with a God Complex. Exposed foam, my great Aunt Tillie! I've been using blue and pink foam on my layout for the last eight years, I got MY idea of doing it from MR magazine. Call the Inspector's Supervisor, tell him what the Inspector told you. You'll probably have to hold the phone about three feet away from your ear from all the hysterical laughter.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Next time the fire department comes around ask to see their search warrant! When they go, "HUH", then tell them to get in their truck and go put out a fire somewhere...and don't come back!
Not sure about where you are but around here a private home is just that. PRIVATE! Even if it is in an apartment building.
As for the term personal item. The layout is a personal item. It is not part of the building, is not permanently attached and will not be sold with the premises. Sounds like a personal item to me.
jsoderq wrote:Some more info. This was the fire department doing the inspection, it has nothing to do with the owners. The issue is not toxic smoke. Fire departments currently never enter a fire scene, no matter how small , without breathing apparatus because of the toxic fumes.The issue is the ease with which the foam will ignite - at very low temp and with a very small ignition source. Some, but not all, foam is treated to not maintain ignition by itself. Covering the foam with something not readily igniteable will suffice, but all surfaces including the underside would have to be covered. The rule is no exposed foam. as far as the coolers, etc, they do not fall under the regulations because of the size and are considered "personal items".
I have about 5000 objects in my home which will easily ignite at a very low temp and with a very small ignition source. They will readily maintain ignition by themselves. They are called "books".
It sounds like you are advocating enforcement of this supposed regulation. Is that correct?
HarryHotspur wrote:I have about 5000 objects in my home which will easily ignite at a very low temp and with a very small ignition source. They will readily maintain ignition by themselves. They are called "books".
Fahrenheit 451...Strange movie...
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twhite wrote: Ahah, the Inspectors!! Had one like that when I was having my music room put on the house about thirty years ago. He'd be out every day to watch the contractors like a Hawk, kept delaying everything because of imagined building code violations. And this was very reputable, well known Sacramento Valley contracting company.
I had the opposite combination. The contractor was a crook and a bad worker, and the Inspector made only cursory visits. After we fired the contractor and had the job properly inspected (at our expense) it took a long time to get it re-done correctly.
As for the Inspector, well, he was either incompetent or on the take, and maybe both.
BlueHillsCPR wrote: Next time the fire department comes around ask to see their search warrant! When they go, "HUH", then tell them to get in their truck and go put out a fire somewhere...and don't come back! Not sure about where you are but around here a private home is just that. PRIVATE! Even if it is in an apartment building. As for the term personal item. The layout is a personal item. It is not part of the building, is not permanently attached and will not be sold with the premises. Sounds like a personal item to me.
Actually no. There is a definite reason they do these inspections. As an apartment dweller the conditions in your apartment could pose a threat to the safety and health of fellow tenants, so your apartment is not your castle and you are subject to any necessary inspections the local governing authority might deem necessary for public safety, problem buildings here in LA so bad in so many places that the city determined to make ALL apartments subject to manditory yearly inspections, that was my job. But that said, we had very specific rules to folow before we could access any apartment unit.
1st we had to notify the owner in writing that an inspection needed to be scheduled, this notice included instructions that all tenants had to be given a written 30 day notice of when the inspection would occur, that their units were subject to said inspection, in writing why the units were going to be inspected and listing the city ordanance allowing it, namely for heath and safety violations. Remember our primary goal was slum busting, so most of the time we werent inspecting Beverly Hills 90210, even though I found a few dumps in some VERY tonie neighborhoods also!
On the day of our inspection, the owner or building manager or both would meet me, once we began, the owner/manager, not me, would 1st knock or ring the bell, several times if needed, if no answer then they would open the unit with a master key, and shout into the unit to make sure anyone there knew we were entering, if the unit was locked and the owner couldnt open it, we didnt knock the door down, we moved on, telling the owner to try and have the unit available on reinspection, but even then if we couldnt get in, that was it, we let the owner know he was responsible at that point to ensure the unit was up to code. We were lucky if we inspected 50-60% of units. 90% of the time if someone was there to open the door, they were more than happy to see me, many a tenant made time to be there and wanted their units inspected, and gladly pointed out where there were issues, particulary with problem buildings.
Then there was the other 10%,
Oh My! the things I saw, I could tell you stories that would make your hair turn white! Trash piled to the ceiling, holes in floors, rotting food strewn all over the place, newspapers stacked so high the floors sagged, roaches the size of chihuahuas, places where the stink clung to you after leaving, and these were tenant caused problems...so we definelty had a clear purpose for our inspections.
I was always professional with the owners and tenants, I only looked at the strick code aspects, not doing anything that could be interpreted as taking a personal biased against any owner or tenant no matter how big a jackhole one or the other was being, and believe me I meet a few! It was a tought job but I loved it and was sad to give it up, but I'm happier now, less stress. Seams to me like this inspector was just being a nitpicker, must be in a quiet neighborhood.
Oh I could tell you stories about some of the "personal items" I saw... OMFG!....
No, but a landlord can. Fire inspectors tend to be a little overzealous. I had one chew me out for having an ash tray next to a 5lb can of ink in a print shop. Claimed I was gonna blow the place up! He REALLY freaked out when I started flicking lit matches into the open can in front of him!!( the guy was clueless!)Sounds like the OP should have gone with hard shell!
I don't know what the residential laws/codes are here in NY, but when I worked at Dunham Studios, on commercial/public layouts, all exposed areas, (foam and wood) had to be painted with a fire retardant paint, (including the uderside of all the benchwork). It always struck me that all the ground foam, plastic and wood buildings, trees, etc were still "unprotected". Have you ever seen how fast a model tree will burn?
If it turns out that you truely can't have the exposed foam, see if painting the exposed surfaces with fire retardant paint will satisfy the code. It might be an inconvience, but still better than having to toss the layout. And of course if the apartment were to burn down, the layout would still be standing!
Jay
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