Okay, everyone. I think we've sufficiently talked this one through and then some. jsoderq's situation might be a unique one because of where he lives and resides.
The best each of us can do is to talk to and verify from our own townships and municipalities what is acceptable and legal as far as the use of exposed extrude foam in our homes - albeit attached to the wall or freestanding.
Let's move on...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I began on the assumption that it was likely toxic fumes generated from the combustion of the material, and that when permanently attached to a structure, would be considered subject to building codes.
However, I found this:
Material Safety Data Sheet
Blue rigid cellular foam board.
HAZARDOUS COMBUSTION PRODUCTS: Under fire conditions polymers decompose. The smoke may contain polymer fragments of varying compositions in addition to unidentified toxic and/or irritating compounds. In smoldering or flaming conditions, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide and carbon are generated. Hazardous combustion products may include, and are not I limited to, hydrogen fluoride, hydrogen chloride and hydrogen bromide. Studies have shown that the products of combustion of this foam are not more acutely toxic than the products of combustion of common building materials such as wood.
http://engineering.union.edu/~rapoffa/MER214/laboratories/lab7documents/Styrofoam%20MSDS.pdf
What BS. I agree either the inspector has a god complex or someone's out to get you. My 5 X 12 layout only has 2" of foam on plywood plus a small hill made out of it. I'd be more concerned with my stacks of model train magazines under my layout .
i better watch it i made a 5 X 9 layout for the local museum using blue and pink plus woodland scenic's risers (if so i didn't know!
GraniteRailroader wrote:To the few guys here who seem to need to bash the member of the public safety agency in question -
To the few guys here who seem to need to bash the member of the public safety agency in question -
If somebody can provide a citation any regulation, code, or law in the original poster's jurisdiction, then I'll reconsider. Until then (and it won't happen) I say the guy is an officious jerk. Better yet, if the original poster will post the guy's name and dept., I'll call him up and ask him.
- Harry
Depending on local codes, this could be a very real situation. While free-standing and self supporting benchwork may find itself exempt, benchwork that has been structurally attached to the wall to be "permanent" may find itself included in certain codes such as how insulating foam can be used in building construction. It's a tight line, but it is possible.
One of the big things with these foams is that many of them don't support combustion very well. They will burn but you're more likely to see the effects of a smoldering fire and thick amounts of black and toxic smoke. Not to say that white smoke isn't toxic, or it's any better from you, but you get the point. Foam is filled with lots of Methyl-Ethyl-Funky-Bad-Stuff with so many letters in the different chemicals' names that you could play Word Jumble for hours.
What's most likely happening here is a partial misunderstanding on all sides, as well as lack of detailed and specific information about the exact situation this occurred in. Before I was a career railroader, I had a career in firefighting. I've done the same building inspections, had the same complaints about different interpretations of the code, and it all works out in the end. Do your research, don't over-react, and keep level headed. Request a meeting with the inspector, and ask to see the codes. Tell him you want to make your apartment safer, and would like to look at alternatives so that you don't lose all your work.
-Granite(Former FF 1/2, HazMat Technician, EMT)
This space reserved for SpaceMouse's future presidential candidacy advertisements
tomikawaTT wrote: SNIP Even as I type, I am in a room which is an extreme fire hazard! In addition to file cabinets full of paperwork, 64 linear feet of wall-mounted bookshelves (well stuffed,) SNIPChuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964, with foam roadbed on steel benchwork)
SNIP
Even as I type, I am in a room which is an extreme fire hazard! In addition to file cabinets full of paperwork, 64 linear feet of wall-mounted bookshelves (well stuffed,) SNIP
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964, with foam roadbed on steel benchwork)
Chuck, I know you are one of the smarter guys on this forum. You and I both know that you can throw a book in the campfire and it will burn as slow as plywood.
Neither of us wants to be in a room full of bare foam in a fire.
Joe
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
tomikawaTT wrote:Sounds to me as if you got a joker with an agenda. Maybe he had some bad memories of failing at model railroading, or maybe he objects to, "Grown men playing with children's toys." (I actually had a Marine officer say that to me once!) I'm willing to wager that he was shooting from the hip, and that his supervisors and the rulebooks won't back him up.
Sounds to me as if you got a joker with an agenda. Maybe he had some bad memories of failing at model railroading, or maybe he objects to, "Grown men playing with children's toys." (I actually had a Marine officer say that to me once!) I'm willing to wager that he was shooting from the hip, and that his supervisors and the rulebooks won't back him up.
Nail on head. Or maybe he's a member of FFoA (Foam Fighters of America). Their motto is, "I built my railroad with blood, sweat, and plywood, and by Golly, no one's gonna do it any easier." And their slogan is. "When I was your age, I had to walk to school ... 5 miles each way ... thru rain, snow, sleet ..."
BTW, I called my attorney, and he said you were right about the tags. I feel a lot better now.
HarryHotspur wrote:I called the local fire marshall to come inspect my layout to make sure I was in compliance. He said the layout was fine, but unfortunately he noticed a mattress and some pillows which had the tags removed. He said he was gonna notify the Feds. I'm afraid I'm in big trouble now.
ROFLMAO!!!
(Those tags may be removed by the consumer - you just can't resell the item without them.)
Back to the original subject. In my earlier lifetime, I was a facilities inspector for the USAF (just one of the really odd jobs I've held) Even though the Air Force had some really rigid codes, there was one area where use of foam was widespread. Every tool box was lined with the stuff, with a little pocket for each tool. Nobody ever suggested that it should be considered a fire hazard or covered with anything.
Sounds to me as if you got a joker with an agenda. Maybe he had some bad memories of failing at model railroading, or maybe he objects to, "Grown men playing with children's toys." (I actually had a Marine officer say that to me once!) I'm willing to wager that he was shooting from the hip, and that his supervisors and the rulebooks won't back him up. I would certainly get a second opinion (at the local building department) before acting on one individual's spoken word. Even if he gave you a written notice of violation (did he?) it can still be questioned.
Even as I type, I am in a room which is an extreme fire hazard! In addition to file cabinets full of paperwork, 64 linear feet of wall-mounted bookshelves (well stuffed,) a daybed (with the usual bedding,) wooden furniture, a closetful of non-fireproofed clothing and some paper posters in wooden frames, there are TWO PIECES OF PINK FOAM!!! (Each piece is approximately 1.5 x 12 inches, and 10mm thick) Egad!
It's not illegal to remove the tags after purchasing the item. It's specifically required to be there before purchase to notify the purchaser of any specific health/safety ratings, hazards, and issues they may encounter with the pillow.
On my layout it's not the foam that I'd be worried about when it comes to flammability. It's the wadded up newspaper that I made the hills out of and the brown wrapping paper that covers it that would be far more dangerous. Would the inspector complain about that? If he would then no one could own any paper materials either and they are far more flammable than blue or pink foam.
I don't know what the residential laws/codes are here in NY, but when I worked at Dunham Studios, on commercial/public layouts, all exposed areas, (foam and wood) had to be painted with a fire retardant paint, (including the uderside of all the benchwork). It always struck me that all the ground foam, plastic and wood buildings, trees, etc were still "unprotected". Have you ever seen how fast a model tree will burn?
If it turns out that you truely can't have the exposed foam, see if painting the exposed surfaces with fire retardant paint will satisfy the code. It might be an inconvience, but still better than having to toss the layout. And of course if the apartment were to burn down, the layout would still be standing!
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Midnight Railroader wrote: This argument is horse-hocky.The OP's inspector was wrong, at least as it would apply to a home.Building (fire) codes cannot prohibit you from having flammable materials in your home.Period.
This argument is horse-hocky.
The OP's inspector was wrong, at least as it would apply to a home.
Building (fire) codes cannot prohibit you from having flammable materials in your home.
Period.
No, but a landlord can. Fire inspectors tend to be a little overzealous. I had one chew me out for having an ash tray next to a 5lb can of ink in a print shop. Claimed I was gonna blow the place up! He REALLY freaked out when I started flicking lit matches into the open can in front of him!!( the guy was clueless!)Sounds like the OP should have gone with hard shell!
BlueHillsCPR wrote: Next time the fire department comes around ask to see their search warrant! When they go, "HUH", then tell them to get in their truck and go put out a fire somewhere...and don't come back! Not sure about where you are but around here a private home is just that. PRIVATE! Even if it is in an apartment building. As for the term personal item. The layout is a personal item. It is not part of the building, is not permanently attached and will not be sold with the premises. Sounds like a personal item to me.
Next time the fire department comes around ask to see their search warrant! When they go, "HUH", then tell them to get in their truck and go put out a fire somewhere...and don't come back!
Not sure about where you are but around here a private home is just that. PRIVATE! Even if it is in an apartment building.
As for the term personal item. The layout is a personal item. It is not part of the building, is not permanently attached and will not be sold with the premises. Sounds like a personal item to me.
Actually no. There is a definite reason they do these inspections. As an apartment dweller the conditions in your apartment could pose a threat to the safety and health of fellow tenants, so your apartment is not your castle and you are subject to any necessary inspections the local governing authority might deem necessary for public safety, problem buildings here in LA so bad in so many places that the city determined to make ALL apartments subject to manditory yearly inspections, that was my job. But that said, we had very specific rules to folow before we could access any apartment unit.
1st we had to notify the owner in writing that an inspection needed to be scheduled, this notice included instructions that all tenants had to be given a written 30 day notice of when the inspection would occur, that their units were subject to said inspection, in writing why the units were going to be inspected and listing the city ordanance allowing it, namely for heath and safety violations. Remember our primary goal was slum busting, so most of the time we werent inspecting Beverly Hills 90210, even though I found a few dumps in some VERY tonie neighborhoods also!
On the day of our inspection, the owner or building manager or both would meet me, once we began, the owner/manager, not me, would 1st knock or ring the bell, several times if needed, if no answer then they would open the unit with a master key, and shout into the unit to make sure anyone there knew we were entering, if the unit was locked and the owner couldnt open it, we didnt knock the door down, we moved on, telling the owner to try and have the unit available on reinspection, but even then if we couldnt get in, that was it, we let the owner know he was responsible at that point to ensure the unit was up to code. We were lucky if we inspected 50-60% of units. 90% of the time if someone was there to open the door, they were more than happy to see me, many a tenant made time to be there and wanted their units inspected, and gladly pointed out where there were issues, particulary with problem buildings.
Then there was the other 10%,
Oh My! the things I saw, I could tell you stories that would make your hair turn white! Trash piled to the ceiling, holes in floors, rotting food strewn all over the place, newspapers stacked so high the floors sagged, roaches the size of chihuahuas, places where the stink clung to you after leaving, and these were tenant caused problems...so we definelty had a clear purpose for our inspections.
I was always professional with the owners and tenants, I only looked at the strick code aspects, not doing anything that could be interpreted as taking a personal biased against any owner or tenant no matter how big a jackhole one or the other was being, and believe me I meet a few! It was a tought job but I loved it and was sad to give it up, but I'm happier now, less stress. Seams to me like this inspector was just being a nitpicker, must be in a quiet neighborhood.
Oh I could tell you stories about some of the "personal items" I saw... OMFG!....
Have fun with your trains
twhite wrote: Ahah, the Inspectors!! Had one like that when I was having my music room put on the house about thirty years ago. He'd be out every day to watch the contractors like a Hawk, kept delaying everything because of imagined building code violations. And this was very reputable, well known Sacramento Valley contracting company.
I had the opposite combination. The contractor was a crook and a bad worker, and the Inspector made only cursory visits. After we fired the contractor and had the job properly inspected (at our expense) it took a long time to get it re-done correctly.
As for the Inspector, well, he was either incompetent or on the take, and maybe both.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
HarryHotspur wrote:I have about 5000 objects in my home which will easily ignite at a very low temp and with a very small ignition source. They will readily maintain ignition by themselves. They are called "books".
Fahrenheit 451...Strange movie...
jsoderq wrote:Some more info. This was the fire department doing the inspection, it has nothing to do with the owners. The issue is not toxic smoke. Fire departments currently never enter a fire scene, no matter how small , without breathing apparatus because of the toxic fumes.The issue is the ease with which the foam will ignite - at very low temp and with a very small ignition source. Some, but not all, foam is treated to not maintain ignition by itself. Covering the foam with something not readily igniteable will suffice, but all surfaces including the underside would have to be covered. The rule is no exposed foam. as far as the coolers, etc, they do not fall under the regulations because of the size and are considered "personal items".
Some more info. This was the fire department doing the inspection, it has nothing to do with the owners. The issue is not toxic smoke. Fire departments currently never enter a fire scene, no matter how small , without breathing apparatus because of the toxic fumes.
The issue is the ease with which the foam will ignite - at very low temp and with a very small ignition source. Some, but not all, foam is treated to not maintain ignition by itself. Covering the foam with something not readily igniteable will suffice, but all surfaces including the underside would have to be covered. The rule is no exposed foam. as far as the coolers, etc, they do not fall under the regulations because of the size and are considered "personal items".
I have about 5000 objects in my home which will easily ignite at a very low temp and with a very small ignition source. They will readily maintain ignition by themselves. They are called "books".
It sounds like you are advocating enforcement of this supposed regulation. Is that correct?
Ahah, the Inspectors!! Had one like that when I was having my music room put on the house about thirty years ago. He'd be out every day to watch the contractors like a Hawk, kept delaying everything because of imagined building code violations. And this was very reputable, well known Sacramento Valley contracting company.
I finally got so angry at his high-handed Pontificating, I called my father, who just happened to be in charge of Construction and Maintenance for the Tahoe National Forest. Explained the situation to him, he drove down from Nevada City, looked around the construction site--lo and behold, said Inspector came out and started his usual Pontificating. Dad took him aside, had a few quiet words with him, Inspector went away and never came back, room got finished. If the rest of the house was up to the standards of my music room, it could survive a 9.0 earthquake!
Plain and simple--you landed an Inspector with a God Complex. Exposed foam, my great Aunt Tillie! I've been using blue and pink foam on my layout for the last eight years, I got MY idea of doing it from MR magazine. Call the Inspector's Supervisor, tell him what the Inspector told you. You'll probably have to hold the phone about three feet away from your ear from all the hysterical laughter.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
The point is that, as a tenant, if you are in violation of local codes and ordinances, your landlord may have recourse, including evicting you. The net result is...no layout for the purposes of this topic. Remember that such codes and ordinances are for the protection of everyone who might be affected by your decisions. This includes first responders, the landlord, the families all around you in the building, and the owners and occupants of adjacent buildings.
I would be consulting my insurance policy holders and a lawyer. The insurance facts will be free, the lawyer will run you anywhere from $200-thousands, depending on the billable hours it takes until you decide to throw in the towel or until you prevail.
It may just be cheaper to move in the long run.
My
jsoderq wrote:I live in an apartment subject to fire deparment inspections. I have to remove the layout (4x8) as it is against fire code to have exposed foam. It must be enclosed by drywall or paneling or the like. The inspector said some foam is even stenciled with the fact that it has to be covered. Latex paint will not be enough to cover the foam. Also, he pointed out you may be voiding your fire insurance with a foam layout as it is a known fire hazard, same as illegal wiring. I don't want to hear all the crap about government etc. Anyone else ever run into this? Might be worth checking with your insurance man if he is a friendly guy.
If paint wouldn't be enough to cover it, I would use a 2" brush and cover the foam with one or two coats of pre-mixed joint compound and then paint it a tan latex color. This will give some texture to the foamboard more so than just paint.
Everyone stores flammable or toxic material in their houses or apartment. There is no way around it. I would have to believe that this pertains to building materials that are in the structure of your apartment and not your personal belongings.
What city was this in?
As a former habitability safety building inspector for the City of Los Angeles I also inspected apartment units for code violations, including citing tenants for unsafe conditions, one aspect of my job was fire code enforcement, and this is complete horse-hockey to me also!
If "flamable contents" were that big an issue, half the contents of American homes would have to be chucked out, so what that inspector said was overstepping the bounds of his enforcement IMHO. Modern blue or pink foam are engineered not to flame, remember they are building products, they may melt and smoke when exposed to flame but the entire room would have to be on fire for that to occur, then I think you have a bigger issue to worry about.
I had ran into a couple model train layouts in the course of my inspections, unless there is shredded foam particles all over the place or some other aspect that could create a life/safety issue like blocking required exits, then it falls under the catagory of contents just like furniture, and you CAN NOT order someone to remove furniture or other personal belongings unless there is a clear and present hazard. Even then your enforcement has limits. If the room its in is reasonably clean then there was no issue.
There are far worse conditions out there that this inspector should be worried about. Far greater risk from the flammable foam in old sofas and matresses than from the amount of foam on a stupid train layout, yet if its still in good condition, I had NO authority to order removal of old furniture, if I cannot order old furniture or old gas stoves or old gas in-floor heaters - as long as they were in good order, I do not see how this inspector could order the removal of something like a model train layout.
Keep the layout, I would fight it.
although I would use a stronger term than horse-hocky!! You got one of those inspectors that think they're God!! Thankfully they are few & far between!! If he does not relent when you explain that the layout is no different than your bed or other furniture, call his superior. If not in your municipality, your state will have a governing body in charge of building inspectors. In NJ it's the DCA, Diovision of Consumer Affairs - check your state. In 40+ years of contracting I only had one serious run-in with an inspector - one phone call to the DCA ended that in 24 hours!!
I wonder if the Woodland Scenic foam products would be affected by this?? They're supposed to be made to a different formula so they're non-toxic when heated (like when cutting with a hot wire cutter).