Need some ideas...

[4-6-6-4 Challenger]

Here is the room that I am going to put my layout into.

The brown rectangle is where the layout is going to go.

Some of the thing that I do want to have on the layout is a steam service area that is able to hold large loco's like 4-6-6-4, 4-8-8-4, 2-8-8-2, 2-6-6-2, 2-8-4 2-10-4, etc. 

I am going to be modeling that UP line,  I am think of modeling the Baily yard steam service area in North platte nebraska during the 1940's 

I would like to have at least one main line that I can run long(ish) trains on. 

This is about all that I want.  If you could give me some tips and layout ideas let me know.

Thanks

Kyle

[gandydancer19]

So basically, what you have to work with is a 10x12 foot room. I would recommend building something around the outside like the Hogg RR bench work. Maybe even that layout. See http://www.hogrr.com/ However, I don't think that the space you have will accommodate all of the things that you want to do, at least in HO scale. For a space this size, I don't think you will be able to run that large motive power that you like, unless you are modeling in N scale.

Also, if this is your first layout, I think your plans for a large layout are a little over the top. You should start with something small. The reason? It is hard to get everything right the first time you try something new. My advice is to build smaller, then work your way up.

Sorry if this sounds so negative.

[steinjr]

Here is the room that I am going to put my layout into.

The brown rectangle is where the layout is going to go.

I might not see the whole room in your drawing. This what I seem to see:

 - what you have available is a corner of larger space
 - entry to your area is a 12' wide opening at the bottom
 - basic area depth is 10' 6" from opening to front cabinets
 - basic area width is 16'for the first 8' 6", 12' for the last 2'

 You do not say anything about need to access those cabinets. Do people need to get to stuff that are in those cabinets without having to crawl on the floor under a layout to get there ?  If they need to access it, how much space do you need in front of cabinets to open doors and get stuff ?

 Does the area need to be shared with anything else, or is it empty space, apart from the cabinets ? 

 The width of the fish tank (front to rear) must be subtracted from the 12' width of the opening into the area. How wide is it ? 

Any limitations on fastening stuff to walls ? Should the entire layout be freestanding - ie stand on legs on the floor or could it hang on the walls on the right and left end of the room ? 

 Any windows in this area ? If so how big and where ?   

 This is your first layout, right ? Got anyone to help you build or do you expect to be doing everything alone ? 

 You are a teenager. Most young adults move out from their parents home sometime between age 18 and age 25 or so, and most move into tiny apartments compared with their childhood home.

 How long do you expect to live in your current home - do you expect to move out within 2 years ? 5 years ? 10 years ? 

 Do you expect to just abandon your layout when you move out ? Or bring a smallish part of it with you to a new home - an apartment of your own, student dorm or whatever ? 

 

 

 Some of the thing that I do want to have on the layout is a steam service area that is able to hold large loco's like 4-6-6-4, 4-8-8-4, 2-8-8-2, 2-6-6-2, 2-8-4 2-10-4, etc. 

I am going to be modeling that UP line,  I am think of modeling the Baily yard steam service area in North platte nebraska during the 1940's 

I would like to have at least one main line that I can run long(ish) trains on. 

 Okay. An engine terminal can easily be fitted into your room in any relevant scale. Just have a look e.g. at engine terminal layout in the May 2008 Model Railroader.

 But large steam, longish trains and mainline run puts some serious constraints on what you can do. 

 Large steam would want fairly generous curves. 

 In H0 scale that would probably be 28-30" radius curves or so.
 In N scale that would probably be about 15" radius curves or so.

 What would you call a longish train ? 20 40' cars ?

 Ìn H0 scale that would be about 110" of freight cars (5.5" per car) - a tad over 9 feet. 
 In N scale that work out to about 60" - about 5 feet. 

 My basic recommendation if your main desire is for longish mainline freight trains would be to seriously consider going N scale.

 

 Would you essensially like to model a single location and watch multiple trains pass through this location (ie a railfan style layout) with the trains disappearing off to the east and west to "somewhere else" (ie into staging), or would you like to walk along with a single train passing through several locations, pulling into sidings to wait for other trains etc (ie an engineer style layout) ? 

  I am sure other people will have more questions for you. The purpose of the questions is not to torment you, but to help give you ideas about what you must have and what would be nice to have.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[4-6-6-4 Challenger]

steinjr-

Yes, we still have to be able to get into the cabnets in the back so we need to leave at least 2ft, we would also need to leave 2-3ft on the left side so you could get to them.

The table would be freestanding I CANT hang it from the wall.

There are no windows the layout is going to be in a finished basement.

I was planning on liveing in the house until I was 21 and im 16 now so ill have it 5 years.  The layout will stay at my parents house until I finish college.

I have looked into N scale and it just does not please me I just think it is to small.

I like the engineering style layout better.

The layout I really would like to do is have all 12ftx8ft be one HUGE yard with a HUGE steam service area on it.

P.S. I have been trying to get my parents to let me have the room above the garage and if I can get that then I will have somewhere between 30ftx15ft  If I could get that I could put all my wants into it.  I am going to have to do some sweat talking to get them to let me do that tho.

[steinjr]

steinjr-

Yes, we still have to be able to get into the cabnets in the back so we need to leave at least 2ft, we would also need to leave 2-3ft on the left side so you could get to them.

The table would be freestanding I CANT hang it from the wall.

There are no windows the layout is going to be in a finished basement.

I was planning on liveing in the house until I was 21 and im 16 now so ill have it 5 years.  The layout will stay at my parents house until I finish college.

I have looked into N scale and it just does not please me I just think it is to small.

I like the engineering style layout better.

The layout I really would like to do is have all 12ftx8ft be one HUGE yard with a HUGE steam service area on it.

 Hmm - two good books for inspiration for big yard/engine terminal would be

"Model Railroader's Guide to ..."

Freight Yards: http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/12248.html

Locomotive Servicing Terminals:  http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/12228.html  

 Well worth the price to get and read.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

 

 

[steinjr]

 

 Okay, trying to summarize what we have so far:

 You want to build a H0 scale layout. Main focus of your layout should be Union Pacific Bailey Yard in North Platte, NE in the late 1940s/early 1950s, with trains pulled by big steam arriving or departing, and big steam being serviced. 

 Available space for layout is a rectangular area 13' x 8' 6" in a 16' x 10' 6" room, given that you need to leave 2' for a walkway/access to cabinets on the top of the room and 3 feet for an access aisle on the left of the room. 

 Rightmost short edge of layout area is up against a wall, as it the rightmost 4' of both the upper and lower long edges - other edges have access from both sides. Access to room is the 12' on the leftmost end of the lower edge in the figure.

 I have tried to look up availability of big steam engines in H0 scale on walthers.com to get a rough idea of engine size, price and availability.

 Looks to me like a the least expensive H0 scale 4-8-8-4 Big Boys that are listed at Walthers are Broadway Limitied Import (BLI) engines - at about $450 per engine.

 The least expensive H0 scale 4-6-6-4 Challengers are from MTH, at about $700 per engine. Looks like there aren't all that many in stock - most of these say "sold out" or "back order".

 This doesn't mean that you cannot get a better deal elsewhere - but H0 scale 4-6-6-4 and 4-8-8-4s are seems likely to cost you on the order of $400+ per engine.

 Do you already own some of these engines ? Do you have a budget that will allow you to buy several such engines for a large engine terminal ?

 Stein

 

 

[rolleiman]

In HO scale, you're going to want a Minimum of 30" radius to run those large locomotives. An 18 inch turntable (130') and roundhouse on a UP scale is easily going to eat half your space. Figuring about a 9 inch approach to the roundhouse from the turntable, you're looking at roughly a 48" diamater space, if, the roundhouse does not exceed about 1/4 circle. That will leave a few inches to Squeeze a couple tracks past it. Go half circle, on the roundhouse you're looking at about 90" diameter or there abouts. I typically, in planning figure half the turntable bridge length for the roundhouse approach to get the maximum number of tracks in. You could space it closer together at the cost of the number of tracks (without getting into fancy trackwork).

The engine facility on my next plan takes a space of about 48x132 inches (4x11 feet) for a 105' turntable, semi-circle roundhouse, and facilities (coal, sand, water, etc).. As drawn, I have 2 inches center to center on the tracks at the roundhouse doors.

I'm not trying to discourage you from building what you want, just trying to set in some reality for you..  If you can find a way to build around the walls (doesn't have to attach) and still have your access, you could do a lot more than with the space you've negotiated for yourself.

How about some photos of the actual space showing where everything is.. ?? ...  

[steinjr]

In HO scale, you're going to want a Minimum of 30" radius to run those large locomotives. An 18 inch turntable (130') and roundhouse on a UP scale is easily going to eat half your space. Figuring about a 9 inch approach to the roundhouse from the turntable, you're looking at roughly a 48" diamater space, if, the roundhouse does not exceed about 1/4 circle. That will leave a few inches to Squeeze a couple tracks past it. Go half circle, on the roundhouse you're looking at about 90" diameter or there abouts. I typically, in planning figure half the turntable bridge length for the roundhouse approach to get the maximum number of tracks in. You could space it closer together at the cost of the number of tracks (without getting into fancy trackwork).

 I have tried to draw in a Walthers 3 stall "modern" (ie post 1920) roundhouse with extended (125' ) stalls, an 18" (ie 130') turntable, 9 inches between turntable pit and roundhouse (on 10 degree spacings) and 18" of straight track on the approach to the turntable. 

 This is a rough illustration of how much space a H0 3 stall roundhouse would take in Kyle's layout space - placement may very well not be optimal within available space: 

 

 How would you guys lay out an engine terminal in this space ?

 Link to  Xtrkcad file showing his available layout space , if anyone wants to try their hand at drawing in some stuff for him (right click and "save as" to save file to your own computer):

 Smile,
 Stein

 

 

[steinjr]

 Kyle --

 In your first sketch, you showed that the area where you want to build your layout lays off another room - where you showed a fish tank (see my sketch below).

 I am just guestimating the size of the fish tank in your sketch to be 15x32 inches, based on a rough estimate of the dimensions of a 70 litre (20 gallon) fish tank we have in our living room.

 Could you make some measurements and post a drawing and possibly a picture or two of the area below the layout area ?

 Would it e.g. be possible to let a small peninsula for a roundhouse extend off the lowermost area of the designated layout area into the  rest of the lowermost room ?

 

Stein

 

[R. T. POTEET]

Kyle, I examined your room-layout graphic for about an hour yesterday before I had to go attend to other business and I looked in on it again this AM. The best I can come up with is that your access requirements for those cabinets leaves you little option beyond a donut-shaped layout. There are a few places where you could probably fit in 48 inch wide benchwork but most of your platform is going to be restricted to 24 inches. In HO-Scale you could - and that is a pretty big COULD - do a twice-around but only with considerable cramming; whether you like N-Scale or not it would fit better into your available space. I surmise that, since you did not include it in your layout-space drawing, that the area in front of that fish tank is in no-no land. If that is true then it is too bad because that space would be perfect for a double-sided peninsula and a balloon.

Should you elect to go with a Challenger/Big Boy motif then you need to keep in mind that turning those locomotives is going to require an 18 inch turntable - AND THAT'S A LOT OF TURNTABLE!!!

PICKY! PICKY! PICKY! You have a couple of other problems.

Firstly, if you want Onion Specific 2-6-6-2s, 2-8-4s, and 2-10-4s there is only one place to get them: they must be ordered direct from the obscure nation of Vaporiana. These locomotives are made from a material called Vaporium; anything rendered from this material is absolutely invisible . . . . . which, in this circumstance, is what you want because these specified locomotives were - at least in the case of the Onion Specific - absolutely invisible because they absolutely did not exist in the first place; UP did not have a large fleet of 2-8-8-2s but by the late '40s they would have been invisible also because, at this stage of the game, they were being cast into doors for DeSotos- that's an old Chrysler Motors brand from the era in question..

Which brings us to Bailey(?) Yard and the Challengers and Big Boys.

Now, I know that I am going to get kicked in the teeth for the following. It is highly unlikely that Bailey(?) Yard ever saw a Challenger or a Big Boy except in passing - to museums in the case of the Big Boys or to razor blade factories in the case of the Challengers. These locomotives with their high speed lugging capabilites were a much too valuable asset to waste in an environment that was still being operated as ton-miles - UP did not really become a train-miles railroad until dieselization/turbinization. These Challengers and Big Boys seldom - if ever - ventured east of Cheyenne. I doubt that Bailey(?) Yard had a turntable and engine house that was big enough to service these brutes; there was most likely a wye such as existed at Cheyenne which would have sufficed for turning if required. Southern Nebraska was the province of the triple ts and MKs both of which survived into the mid-'50s; when Diesels bumped the 9000 Class (4-12-2) machines out of the Southern Wyoming deserts they finished their useful days speeding freights across the Nebraska and Kansas prairies.

Kyle, I do wish you luck on designing a layout to fit into your designated space. 

[dehusman]

The layout I really would like to do is have all 12ftx8ft be one HUGE yard with a HUGE steam service area on it.

Many, many issues with this.  8 ft x12 feet is too large to reach across, so you will have to make a hole in the middle for access.  Assuming 30-36' radius on the ends for the big engines that gives you only 6 ft of tangent on each side.  Not really conducive to a HUGE yard and a HUGE steam service facility.

My suggestion is NOT to do Bailey yard, but do Cheyenne instead.  Do a smaller yard and a larger engine facility.

I am going to have to do some sweat talking to get them to let me do that tho.

Speaking as a parent, SWEET talking would probably work better than SWEAT talking.  8-)

Dave H.

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

Sweat talking might help if it was mowing the yard, doing the laundry, and helping with other chores!

[4-6-6-4 Challenger]

The layout I really would like to do is have all 12ftx8ft be one HUGE yard with a HUGE steam service area on it.

Many, many issues with this.  8 ft x12 feet is too large to reach across, so you will have to make a hole in the middle for access.  Assuming 30-36' radius on the ends for the big engines that gives you only 6 ft of tangent on each side.  Not really conducive to a HUGE yard and a HUGE steam service facility.

My suggestion is NOT to do Bailey yard, but do Cheyenne instead.  Do a smaller yard and a larger engine facility.

I am going to have to do some sweat talking to get them to let me do that tho.

Speaking as a parent, SWEET talking would probably work better than SWEAT talking.  8-)

Dave H.

Ya there is some more of my great spelling skills...

Ill post some pictures of the room I am working with soon.

Thanks for all of the comments so far

[4-6-6-4 Challenger]

Here is the room I am working with.

All the stuff there is going somewhere else.

[rolleiman]

It's too bad you cannot attach to the walls anywhere.. The benchwork would fit very nicely over that row of cabinets, Greatly expanding your space.

[dante]

It's too bad you cannot attach to the walls anywhere.. The benchwork would fit very nicely over that row of cabinets, Greatly expanding your space.

If the stuff on top of the cabinets can relocate, build on top of the cabinets and expand your space as Jeff suggests. You could protect the cabinet top with felt, cork or similar and simply rest the layout on the cabinets.

[steinjr]

Here is the room I am working with.

All the stuff there is going somewhere else.

 Excellent - cabinets are low, not floor to ceiling stuff. Stuff could potensially go on top of  the cabinets, with short legs set on top of some kind of protective material like felt to protect the top of the cabinets.

 Let me add the space used by those cabinets to the available space drawing below - I am guestimating that the cabinets are about 4 feet high, 2 feet deep - could you measure them and see if that is about right ?

 Are these cabinets in one piece (or have a one piece countertop), so they cannot easily be split into e.g. two  or three smaller groups of cabinets tucked under the layout here and there, or do they come apart e.g in groups of two and two cabinets ? 

 The ideal location for some of those cabinets would have been under the layout out towards that part of the room which is not going to be used for a layout - would greatly improve access to cabinets for your family and free up quite a bit of potensial layout space now used for walkways to access the cabinets.

  Okay - last thing to check to determine the limits of space potensially available - what does the area outside the opening of the room look like - like how close is the wall directly opposite the layout area - see figure below to see what I mean. Any chance of you making some measurements and posting a picture of this area ? 

 

 Smile,
 Stein

 

 

 

[Rotorranch]

The layout I really would like to do is have all 12ftx8ft be one HUGE yard with a HUGE steam service area on it.

Many, many issues with this.  8 ft x12 feet is too large to reach across, so you will have to make a hole in the middle for access. 

That is the issue I was seeing. And an access hatch would be in the way of the roundhouse/turntable facility.

Around the room with a penninsula would be more practical.

Rotor

[steinjr]

Kyle, I examined your room-layout graphic for about an hour yesterday before I had to go attend to other business and I looked in on it again this AM. The best I can come up with is that your access requirements for those cabinets leaves you little option beyond a donut-shaped layout.

 You could potensially fit a dogbone, but the return loops would eat a lot of space and possibly need a popup in the middle for access. So a donut-shape is probably the best bet. 

 Mmm - do we actually have a requirement that the layout must be a continuous run layout ?  Kyle's newest vision, given and druthers said "yard w/large engine servicing area", not "continuous run".

 

There are a few places where you could probably fit in 48 inch wide benchwork but most of your platform is going to be restricted to 24 inches. In HO-Scale you could - and that is a pretty big COULD - do a twice-around but only with considerable cramming; whether you like N-Scale or not it would fit better into your available space.

 Agreed - in N-scale he would have a decent amount of space for a largish yard/engine terminal layout with adequate staging - like the Ozark lines yard/terminal layout in Andy Sperandeo's "Guide to Freight Yards" - which fit in 6x12 feet with an extra 2x3 feet peninsula for the roundhouse area.

 

I surmise that, since you did not include it in your layout-space drawing, that the area in front of that fish tank is in no-no land. If that is true then it is too bad because that space would be perfect for a double-sided peninsula and a balloon.

 I've asked Kyle about that too - being able to fit in a 2x4 or 3x4 foot extension in this area would make more stuff possible. 

 

 

Should you elect to go with a Challenger/Big Boy motif then you need to keep in mind that turning those locomotives is going to require an 18 inch turntable - AND THAT'S A LOT OF TURNTABLE!!!

 Yep - it would take about 68" of space to fit an 18" (130' in the prototype) turntable, turntable lead, roundhouse leads and a 125' roundhouse.

 One could, of course - chose to just model the front of the roundhouse, or park engines on tracks that are 90 degrees (or more) off the approach path, to swap linear space for extra width instead.

 

Southern Nebraska was the province of the triple ts and MKs both of which survived into the mid-'50s; when Diesels bumped the 9000 Class (4-12-2) machines out of the Southern Wyoming deserts they finished their useful days speeding freights across the Nebraska and Kansas prairies.

 Mmmm - good point. The Big Boys and Challengers ran from Cheyenne, Wyoming to Ogden, Utah, didn't they ? West of Nebraska.

 Guess it kinda depends on what Kyle feels most attached to - staying close to the prototype or locating the layout in Nebraska, where he lives. Modeller's license and "what-if" can cover quite a bit of chronological and spatial inconsistency if needed or desired.

 I've poked around on the net to see what prototype photos I could find of steam in Nebraska.

 If Kyle should decide to move his time period back from the 1940s to the early 1920s or so, there are several possible interesting steam operations prototype locations:

 Website with digitized images of Old Nebraska photos: http://www.memories.ne.gov/index.php

 A couple of places that potensially look interesting:

 Omaha:

South Omaha yard
http://www.memories.ne.gov/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/opl&CISOPTR=261&CISOBOX=1&REC=4

Union Stock Yards, South Omaha:
http://www.memories.ne.gov/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/opl&CISOPTR=155&CISOBOX=1&REC=8

Unloading docks, Union Stock Yards, South Omaha:
http://www.memories.ne.gov/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/opl&CISOPTR=241&CISOBOX=1&REC=16

C,B & Q Railroad yard at McCook, NE, 1902
http://www.memories.ne.gov/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/hphsm&CISOPTR=30&CISOBOX=1&REC=6

McCook roundhouse, ca 1920-1935
http://www.memories.ne.gov/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/hphsm&CISOPTR=57&CISOBOX=1&REC=13

A 2-10-2 (?) coaling in McCook, NE, ca 1918:
http://www.memories.ne.gov/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/hphsm&CISOPTR=14&CISOBOX=1&REC=2

 I am sure there are more possible locations that would make great models for steam operations and servicing in Nebraska, if he looks for other sources of inspiration beyond the Bailey yards in North Platte, which came in fairly late (started around 1948 or so, according to a couple of web pages).

 Btw - the CB&Q photos from McCook is from somewhere called the

High Plains Historical Society and Museum
421 Norris Avenue
McCook, NE 69001
308-345-3661
[e-mail]

 It is quite likely that they may have more info on this prototype. It is not the UP, and it is not Challengers - but it likely would be a very interesting prototype to model.

 A 1939 Nebraska guide by John Richard Felton found on google books:
 http://tinyurl.com/42eagq

 described the town thus: "Railroad town and farmers trading center. The heavy loam soil of the Republican river valley produces great quantities of corn and alfalfa. Division point on the Burlington route between Omaha and Denver. Railroad employs 420 men in its shop, roundhouse and station.  The town also has a meat packing plant"

 Also found another potensially interesting book on this prototype:

 Richard C. Kistler. The High Plains Route: a History of the McCook Division of the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad. David City, NE: South Platte Press, 3rd Edition, 1987

 Anyways - food for thought. In the end, Kyle is the one that has to make the decisions on what he wants to model and how.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[Sandeky1989]

 Looks to me like a the least expensive H0 scale 4-8-8-4 Big Boys that are listed at Walthers are Broadway Limitied Import (BLI) engines - at about $450 per engine.

 The least expensive H0 scale 4-6-6-4 Challengers are from MTH, at about $700 per engine. Looks like there aren't all that many in stock - most of these say "sold out" or "back order".

 This doesn't mean that you cannot get a better deal elsewhere - but H0 scale 4-6-6-4 and 4-8-8-4s are seems likely to cost you on the order of $400+ per engine.

If you go to ether one of these online hobby shops you will find thoughs engines and other for a lot cheeper than from the walthers website(I perfer Wholesale trains personaly but im shure there are alot others out there i dont know of).

Wholesaletrains.com 

Trainworld.com 

Hope that helps 

 

[4-6-6-4 Challenger]

Kyle, I examined your room-layout graphic for about an hour yesterday before I had to go attend to other business and I looked in on it again this AM. The best I can come up with is that your access requirements for those cabinets leaves you little option beyond a donut-shaped layout.

 You could potensially fit a dogbone, but the return loops would eat a lot of space and possibly need a popup in the middle for access. So a donut-shape is probably the best bet. 

 Mmm - do we actually have a requirement that the layout must be a continuous run layout ?  Kyle's newest vision, given and druthers said "yard w/large engine servicing area", not "continuous run".

 

There are a few places where you could probably fit in 48 inch wide benchwork but most of your platform is going to be restricted to 24 inches. In HO-Scale you could - and that is a pretty big COULD - do a twice-around but only with considerable cramming; whether you like N-Scale or not it would fit better into your available space.

 Agreed - in N-scale he would have a decent amount of space for a largish yard/engine terminal layout with adequate staging - like the Ozark lines yard/terminal layout in Andy Sperandeo's "Guide to Freight Yards" - which fit in 6x12 feet with an extra 2x3 feet peninsula for the roundhouse area.

 

I surmise that, since you did not include it in your layout-space drawing, that the area in front of that fish tank is in no-no land. If that is true then it is too bad because that space would be perfect for a double-sided peninsula and a balloon.

 I've asked Kyle about that too - being able to fit in a 2x4 or 3x4 foot extension in this area would make more stuff possible. 

 

 

Should you elect to go with a Challenger/Big Boy motif then you need to keep in mind that turning those locomotives is going to require an 18 inch turntable - AND THAT'S A LOT OF TURNTABLE!!!

 Yep - it would take about 68" of space to fit an 18" (130' in the prototype) turntable, turntable lead, roundhouse leads and a 125' roundhouse.

 One could, of course - chose to just model the front of the roundhouse, or park engines on tracks that are 90 degrees (or more) off the approach path, to swap linear space for extra width instead.

 

Southern Nebraska was the province of the triple ts and MKs both of which survived into the mid-'50s; when Diesels bumped the 9000 Class (4-12-2) machines out of the Southern Wyoming deserts they finished their useful days speeding freights across the Nebraska and Kansas prairies.

 Mmmm - good point. The Big Boys and Challengers ran from Cheyenne, Wyoming to Ogden, Utah, didn't they ? West of Nebraska.

 Guess it kinda depends on what Kyle feels most attached to - staying close to the prototype or locating the layout in Nebraska, where he lives. Modeller's license and "what-if" can cover quite a bit of chronological and spatial inconsistency if needed or desired.

 I've poked around on the net to see what prototype photos I could find of steam in Nebraska.

 If Kyle should decide to move his time period back from the 1940s to the early 1920s or so, there are several possible interesting steam operations prototype locations:

 Website with digitized images of Old Nebraska photos: http://www.memories.ne.gov/index.php

 A couple of places that potensially look interesting:

 Omaha:

South Omaha yard
http://www.memories.ne.gov/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/opl&CISOPTR=261&CISOBOX=1&REC=4

Union Stock Yards, South Omaha:
http://www.memories.ne.gov/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/opl&CISOPTR=155&CISOBOX=1&REC=8

Unloading docks, Union Stock Yards, South Omaha:
http://www.memories.ne.gov/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/opl&CISOPTR=241&CISOBOX=1&REC=16

C,B & Q Railroad yard at McCook, NE, 1902
http://www.memories.ne.gov/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/hphsm&CISOPTR=30&CISOBOX=1&REC=6

McCook roundhouse, ca 1920-1935
http://www.memories.ne.gov/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/hphsm&CISOPTR=57&CISOBOX=1&REC=13

A 2-10-2 (?) coaling in McCook, NE, ca 1918:
http://www.memories.ne.gov/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/hphsm&CISOPTR=14&CISOBOX=1&REC=2

 I am sure there are more possible locations that would make great models for steam operations and servicing in Nebraska, if he looks for other sources of inspiration beyond the Bailey yards in North Platte, which came in fairly late (started around 1948 or so, according to a couple of web pages).

 Btw - the CB&Q photos from McCook is from somewhere called the

High Plains Historical Society and Museum
421 Norris Avenue
McCook, NE 69001
308-345-3661
[e-mail]

 It is quite likely that they may have more info on this prototype. It is not the UP, and it is not Challengers - but it likely would be a very interesting prototype to model.

 A 1939 Nebraska guide by John Richard Felton found on google books:
 http://tinyurl.com/42eagq

 described the town thus: "Railroad town and farmers trading center. The heavy loam soil of the Republican river valley produces great quantities of corn and alfalfa. Division point on the Burlington route between Omaha and Denver. Railroad employs 420 men in its shop, roundhouse and station.  The town also has a meat packing plant"

 Also found another potensially interesting book on this prototype:

 Richard C. Kistler. The High Plains Route: a History of the McCook Division of the Chicago, Burlington and Quincy Railroad. David City, NE: South Platte Press, 3rd Edition, 1987

 Anyways - food for thought. In the end, Kyle is the one that has to make the decisions on what he wants to model and how.

 Smile,
 Stein

 

Thanks for all that great info.  I never knew about the round house in McCook but that is awsome I would love to model that.  My thought is I could still one day get a 4-8-8-4 or 4-6-6-4 and run it on a layout just for fun.  The one thing I dont like is it is hard to find CB & Q isnt it?  I need to do more reseach on the round house and yard but I would like to model a little more modern that 1902.

[steinjr]

 The one thing I dont like is it is hard to find CB & Q isnt it? 

 Is it hard to find ? No harder than other engines. I checked walthers.com - they have both 0-8-0 switchers, 2-8-2 Mikados and 2-10-2 USRA heavies in C, B & Q colors.

 It is easy enough to find Burlington freight cars too. Walthers list 85 different freight cars. Same on the passenger side - plenty of various kinds of cars. 

  And you have those cool Zephyr streamlined diesel motor units and gasoline powered doodlebugs. 

 Quite a few interesting things about the Burlington Route, whose slogan was "Everywhere West". 

 

I need to do more reseach on the round house and yard but I would like to model a little more modern that 1902.

 Stuff I pointed out was 1915-1930 or so, not 1902. Some of the steam engines probably lasted past WW2.

 Anyways - be that as it may - did you get those last couple of measurements of your room ?

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[4-6-6-4 Challenger]

K thanks for that. What were the mesurements that ur wanted me to do.

[steinjr]

K thanks for that. What were the mesurements that ur wanted me to do.

1) I am guestimating that the cabinets are about 4 feet high, 2 feet deep - could you measure them and see if that is about right ?  

 

2) The ideal location for some of those cabinets would have been under the layout out towards that part of the room which is not going to be used for a layout - would greatly improve access to cabinets for your family and free up quite a bit of potensial layout space now used for walkways to access the cabinets.

Are these cabinets in one piece (or have a one piece countertop), so they cannot easily be split into e.g. two  or three smaller groups of cabinets tucked under the layout here and there, or do they come apart e.g in groups of two and two cabinets ? 

 

3) Last thing to check to determine the limits of space potensially available - what does the area outside the opening of the room look like - like how close is the wall directly opposite the layout area - see figure below to see what I mean. Any chance of you making some measurements and posting a picture of this area ?

 

 

 

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[Don Z]

Stein,

Here's a jpeg of the Walthers 130' turntable and roundhouse that I created with XTrkCad.

As you can see, it will consume a lot of area!

Don Z.

[steinjr]

Stein,

Here's a jpeg of the Walthers 130' turntable and roundhouse that I created with XTrkCad.

As you can see, it will consume a lot of area!

Don Z.

 Yep.

 Plan shows same thing as the illustration I made further up in the thread - about 3 1/2 foot from the far edge of turntable pit to rear wall of roundhouse.

 Here is a closeup of the illustration I made of a minimum configuration with three round house stalls:

 

 

 I was advised to leave 9" (half the pit diameter) between the turntable and the roundhouse and to space the tracks into the roundhouse with 10 degrees between the tracks.

 I have no personal experience with modelling turntables and roundhouses - they eat up way too much space compared to what I have available for my own layout, and I am more fascinated by diesel engines than steam engines, anyways. 

 Are you saying that it isn't necessary to leave as much as 9 inches of space between the edge of the turntable pit and the roundhouse door for this roundhouse/turntable combo - that there isn't any interior stall dividers or anything like that which makes it necessary to have greater distance between the pit and the roundhous ?

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[Don Z]

Stein,

From the 2008 Walthers catalog, page 439: the front of the roundhouse is located 11 15/16" from the center of the turntable. Given that the turntable diameter is 20" outside the pit, the front of the roundhouse is located 1 15/16" from the lip of the turntable pit. I hope this helps.

Don Z.

[steinjr]

Stein,

From the 2008 Walthers catalog, page 439: the front of the roundhouse is located 11 15/16" from the center of the turntable. Given that the turntable diameter is 20" outside the pit, the front of the roundhouse is located 1 15/16" from the lip of the turntable pit. I hope this helps.

Don Z.

 It sure does - thanks a lot!

 Smile,
 Stein

 

[rolleiman]

Stein,

Here's a jpeg of the Walthers 130' turntable and roundhouse that I created with XTrkCad.

As you can see, it will consume a lot of area!

Don Z.

 Yep.

 Plan shows same thing as the illustration I made further up in the thread - about 3 1/2 foot from the far edge of turntable pit to rear wall of roundhouse.

 Here is a closeup of the illustration I made of a minimum configuration with three round house stalls:

 

 I was advised to leave 9" (half the pit diameter) between the turntable and the roundhouse and to space the tracks into the roundhouse with 10 degrees between the tracks.

 

Smile,

 Stein

Actually, Stein, You can put the roundhouse as close as you want to the turntable edge. Half the pit length is a general rule of thumb I read years ago in the model press and I find it works pretty well when laying out a turntable and roundhouse. Especially when wanting to find the maximum space needed. What I really aim for is to have 2 inches center to center track distance at the roundhouse doors. Taking into account that the door frames are going to take some space, that should allow room for most locos to pass into the roundhouse. In my case, I generally don't worry about the track angles (10 degrees for instance) because any setup I've ever built to completion has had a manual (by eye) index. They should be consistant however.

Given that, the wider the angle, the shorter the distance to the roundhouse from the pit needs to be. I think Don's drawing is a little close and would require about another foot from what is shown (closer to 7' x 7' for the 3/4 roundhouse). Now, the Depth of the roundhouse and the length of the equipment will also affect the placements. If the roundhouse is Just 18" deep and it's full of 4-8-8-4s, then we will need that 2" center track spacing at the doors. But, if it's 18" deep and only will need to hold Pacifics (4-6-2) or even short diesels, then the spacing at the doors could be slightly less so we could move it closer to the turntable (with the same amount of tracks). 

Pre-indexed turntables (like the Walthers) may (not certain on this one) have a preset stop for each track. If that's 10 degrees (I think they actually provide planning templates), then we're stuck with it. If it's adjustable however then, with the criteria I've tried to lay out above, we can put the roundhouse wherever we want. Just as long as the locomotives can get in and out without restrictions.

 

[cuyama]

Actually, Stein, You can put the roundhouse as close as you want to the turntable edge.

That's not strictly true unless one is planning to scratchbuild or significantly kitbash the roundhouse. Walthers and other roundhouses are built for specific angles and distances from the center of the pit. As I noted on another thread, this is why the 90' Walthers turntable does not save quite as much space as one would hope vs. the 130' TT if one is using one of the Walthers roundhouses. The center point of the pit stays the same, so the roundhouse doors must be farther from the edge of the pit with the 90' TT to make the geometry line up.

Again, if one is willing to scratchbuild the roundhouse, it's much more flexible.

Byron
Model RR Blog