Contracted Layout Building in MR

[selector]

Dave, you make a very sensible suggestion to my view. 

-Crandell

[SpaceMouse]

I've been a might busy the last few days and so I've only just read through this...well, nevermind.

I agree with Dave V. If pros are going to build layouts for MR for goodness sakes shows how you did what you did.

On the other hand, I don't begrudge people with money buy what they want. In the best of all worlds, I'd hire a contractor to lift my house, quadruple the size of my basement, set the house back down and build a layout to my specifications so I can start hosting ops sessions.

Then at my leisure, I go back through and build the structures, locos, rolling stock, scenery and and scenes the way I think they should be built.

In 20 years, the one built by the contractor and modified by me will look exactly like the one I took 20 years to build. But with the self-built one, I would I  have lost 10 or so years of ops sessions.

[Dave Vollmer]

I think it got buried in the midst of the debate, but I'd like to repeat a point I made yesterday:

If MR wants to run articles about professionally-built custom layouts, I'd love to learn more about the process.

The article can be in several parts (heck, they could even spread it over several issues just to keep the readers hanging).

First part deals with the process of designing and arriving at a contract.  I hope this would also disclose information about cost.

Second part deals with construction at the custom builder's location and talks about the team and what each person does as well as how they do it.

Third part deals with delivery and installation.

Fourth part visits the owner and new layout, discusses the whole experience, and operations on the new layout.

What do you guys think about that?  I think that would scratch everyone's itch.  For those of us more interested in construction, we get that in the beginning.  For those looking to draw inspiration from the finished layout, they get that in the last part.

Then we all get some insight into the process.  It's possible my opinions on the whole subject are flawed simply because I don't know enough about the process.

BTW, if you guys ever get to the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg, PA, you can see a beautiful custom HO layout built by Chris Comport of the Pennsy 4-track Middle Division in the 50s.  There's also a custom-built layout at the Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum.

I can definitely support building custom layouts for museums 100%.  I think they go a long way into explaining how the static displays worked together in motion as a whole railroad.

[hornblower]

I think most of us agree that we can all learn a thing or two from professionally built layouts, regardless of who bought it or how it came to be.  However, I personally get turned off by the MR articles that feature a professionally built layout but focus on the owner rather than the builder.  I believe all MR readers would have enjoyed (and learned from) the article far more had the focus been on the builder discussing the design and construction of the layout.  Forget who bought it.  That information isn't important to the modelling experience.  MR and it's readers would get far more information visiting the professional builder's shop instead of the buyer's house.  Model Railroader staff, are you reading this forum thread?

[RedSkin]

To All:

As the guy who started this thread, I just want to say thank you to all that participated in it.  I was just looking to start a healthy debate on this topic and to find out what the general consensus was on this sort of thing.  I guess to me it's was just a shock that MR would feature something like these in there pages.  I am one of those guys that look at the layouts feature thinking, "WOW what a great layout that this Modeler has built."  I've been interested in this hobby since I was a teenager, and my Grandfather was very instrumental in encouraging my interest.  Due to a lot of factors, I'm still plugging away at my first honest attempt at a layout.  I can remember one of the first experiences with my Grandfather, when I asked how he had laid the turnouts on parts of his layout, his explanation was to give me a soldering iron a scrap piece of wood and some rails, and showing my how to build my own frogs.  Now I've never hand laid track or claim to be a suburb scratch builder or anything even remotely close to that, but I'm challenging myself to one day be at that level.  I guess I have just carried that idea of "do it yourself" on though my whole time in this hobby.

Dave - You have my respect, a true officer and a gentleman.

Thank You All,

Brad

[shayfan84325]

i would be more impressed if it was a article on the layout building company, that sounds interesting.

I agree.  I'm not so interested in a guy who bought a layout, but I'd like to hear from the folks who built it.

I've also noticed the way MR is leaning more and more toward RTR.  The editor chimed in on a similar post about the way MR is changing and he acknowedged that the magazine is changing with the hobby (I wonder if the hobby is changing because of the magazine).  Regardless, I don't look forward to MR like I used to; my subscription runs out in three issues, then it's good-bye to MR (I doubt that they'll miss me, but I have better ways to spend my money).

[jackn2mpu]

I spent some time on the ropes today in several arenas.

Part of why I'm able to post during the day is that I'm writing my PhD dissertation, and it's nice to take periodic breaks to keep the head clear.

Well, today things were going pretty badly with some of my data...  and now I'm within 2 months of defending.  Fortunately, late this afternoon I was finally able to break through a stumbling block.

I hope everyone in this thread will understand that part of my defensiveness in this thread was borne of frustration.  This will hardly be the first time I've let external pressures affect my posts.  Wish I could swear it would be the last...

So, although I lost a day due to computer and scripting issues, I'm back on track in terms of writing.

Steinjr PMed me that he was offended by what he saw as my attempt to exclude other people from the hobby who don't view things the way I do.  I want to make it clear that's neither what I meant nor how I feel.

My favorite part of the hobby is building things with my own two hands (even though I do have lots of RTR cars and some RTR locos).  So I have trouble identifying with someone who choses not to obtain his layout by his own labors.

...but would I exclude such a person from the hobby?  No.  Not even if I had the power to do so.  We are bonded together by our love of trains, big and small...  I have my opinions, as do all of you, but when it comes to recreating railroads in miniature, the only thing that matters is that we have fun doing it, no matter how we come to it.

Dave:
First off, thank you for your service to our country.
Second: you're military - you'll make it through you doctoral defense no problem. Just think how nervous you were on your first patrol in Iraq - you made it through that and you'll make it through this.
Third: You've handled yourself well with such a hot-button issue as this. I never thought you were trying to exclude anyone from the hobby with your comments. It's just a sad statement of the times we are in when someone has an honest opinion about something, states it, and gets taken to task for it. Political correctness run amuck. I've run into the same thing way too many times myself. I have my opinions, state them, and if someone doesn't like them, tough fecal matter. If I caved in to those people, I wouldn't be true to myself. That's why you'll never see me use acronyms like IMO or IMHO. I ain't humble about any opinions I have. It's like a hot-button issue for me - guns on campus. If you have a valid carry permit, I say go ahead and let students, teachers and others on campus carry ON campus. Some won't like that, but that's part of what I believe. Just like your thoughts on pro layout builders - that's part of what you believe.

[jackn2mpu]

My thoughts:
Featuring pro-built layouts in MR? Okay, but go into details as to how the design came about and techniques on how the manufacturer built it. I'm sure there are techniques that each of us could learn. It'd be like watching Norm Abram on New Yankee Workshop build something - there's tools and techniques he uses that I'm sure not everyone knows and would be great to learn about.

As someone else in this thread said, why not have a special issue that has some of the various custom builders in it and how each of them approaches a layout design. Maybe also have them do a layout based on certain design constraints, whether they do it as a real layout or an artist's (computer's) rendering. That way, people that are in the market for something like this would have a convenient source. Just like audio magazines do with gear shootouts.

A thought does occur: I wonder how many of these pro-built layouts are actually run? And regularly? And how soon would someone with such a layout get bored with it and want something on it changed? I doubt the original builder would come in and do alterations.

[camaro]

Dave V says:

Lance Mindheim could probably build someone a great Monon layout with minimal input from the purchaser, but would need extensive documentary input if building, say, Southern Pacific's climb out of San Luis Obispo or Santa Fe's Peavine line. Were Mindheim or any other builder to build such a layout for me, you better believe that I'd be a very nitpicky customer and that the design would be my baby even if most or all of the construction were undertaken by someone else.

Andre

 Andre,

 

Unfortunately the Monon is gone.  Lance tore it down to put up a new Miami, Florida based produce district CSX HO switching layout.  This new plan and Voodoo & Palmettoes layout can be seen at www.lancemindheim.com.  My layout is my rendition of his "Voodoo & Palmettoes layout.  I can only hope its half as good as his.

 

Larry

 

 

 

 

 

 

[camaro]

I spent some time on the ropes today in several arenas.

Part of why I'm able to post during the day is that I'm writing my PhD dissertation, and it's nice to take periodic breaks to keep the head clear.

Well, today things were going pretty badly with some of my data...  and now I'm within 2 months of defending.  Fortunately, late this afternoon I was finally able to break through a stumbling block.

I hope everyone in this thread will understand that part of my defensiveness in this thread was borne of frustration.  This will hardly be the first time I've let external pressures affect my posts.  Wish I could swear it would be the last...

So, although I lost a day due to computer and scripting issues, I'm back on track in terms of writing.

Steinjr PMed me that he was offended by what he saw as my attempt to exclude other people from the hobby who don't view things the way I do.  I want to make it clear that's neither what I meant nor how I feel.

My favorite part of the hobby is building things with my own two hands (even though I do have lots of RTR cars and some RTR locos).  So I have trouble identifying with someone who choses not to obtain his layout by his own labors.

...but would I exclude such a person from the hobby?  No.  Not even if I had the power to do so.  We are bonded together by our love of trains, big and small...  I have my opinions, as do all of you, but when it comes to recreating railroads in miniature, the only thing that matters is that we have fun doing it, no matter how we come to it.

Dave,

While I'm not working on a PhD dissertation, I did complete my Masters of Science in Microbiology and Scanning Electron Microscopy.  My orals were two hours and totally exhausting and I did drink afterwards. I think exchanging points of view is healthy, no matter what the outcome.  Good Luck.

 

Larry

[Lillen]

Hi Dave,

 

I've been following this thread ever since it started with great interest. I would just like to say that although I do not agree with you. I think you have handled your self very nice. I read with interest on how you defend your stand point and argue for it politely while other disagree. This forum would be a boring place if people didn't disagree and said so while still being courteous to each other.

 

My opinion of this topic is that as long as a layout is inspirational it doesn't really matter how people reached their goals. Some guys are professional carpenters and produce excellent bench work for themselves and others, some are electricians and some us have no usable knowledge what so ever when it comes to building a layout. I liked that layout, it was nice and it's focus was very narrow but could be useful when designing just such a segment of their personal layout.

 

Anyways, it's to late and I'm not interested to get in to this discussion. I just wanted to make my own opinion clear. And then of course, still say that I think that you, Dave have handled your self nicely and have nothing to be apologetic about. You just don't agree with some of us.

 

Thanks for an interesting read.

 

Magnus

[Dave Vollmer]

I spent some time on the ropes today in several arenas.

Part of why I'm able to post during the day is that I'm writing my PhD dissertation, and it's nice to take periodic breaks to keep the head clear.

Well, today things were going pretty badly with some of my data...  and now I'm within 2 months of defending.  Fortunately, late this afternoon I was finally able to break through a stumbling block.

I hope everyone in this thread will understand that part of my defensiveness in this thread was borne of frustration.  This will hardly be the first time I've let external pressures affect my posts.  Wish I could swear it would be the last...

So, although I lost a day due to computer and scripting issues, I'm back on track in terms of writing.

Steinjr PMed me that he was offended by what he saw as my attempt to exclude other people from the hobby who don't view things the way I do.  I want to make it clear that's neither what I meant nor how I feel.

My favorite part of the hobby is building things with my own two hands (even though I do have lots of RTR cars and some RTR locos).  So I have trouble identifying with someone who choses not to obtain his layout by his own labors.

...but would I exclude such a person from the hobby?  No.  Not even if I had the power to do so.  We are bonded together by our love of trains, big and small...  I have my opinions, as do all of you, but when it comes to recreating railroads in miniature, the only thing that matters is that we have fun doing it, no matter how we come to it.

[ChrisNH]

The only problem I have with these layouts is you don't get much "how to" info in the article.. the construction portion is something like "I paid Bob who did a bangup job!". I remember one layout from Great Model Railoads a guy had built where most of it was how they moved it into the train room after it was built. About as exciting as an article about how to move a couch.

Chris 

[andrechapelon]

That reminds me...

I forgot to order GMR through MR...  But my LHS still doesn't have it.  When did it hit the shelves?

Last October.

Andre

[wm3798]

Or how about - "Save Space, Buy the Video"

More Cynical by the Minute 

[SilverSpike]

Guess they'll have to change the magazine's motto again... "Dream It, Plan It, Buy It."

Lee 

Or how about "If we Build it for you....they will come!"

[wm3798]

 

I highly doubt MR is "cheapening" our work. The magazine is about MODEL RAILROADING. No qualification is in the magazine title such as "Model railroading only for those that build their own layout and scratch build everything on it". MR readership is wide and varied. The editors know this and have to provide content that appeals across a broad spectrum. Just because they feature a professionally built layout I fail to see how they cheapen the hobby?

Guess they'll have to change the magazine's motto again... "Dream It, Plan It, Buy It."

Lee 

[Dave Vollmer]

That reminds me...

I forgot to order GMR through MR...  But my LHS still doesn't have it.  When did it hit the shelves?

[andrechapelon]

Dave V says:

My personal opinion is that what is gained by seeing beautifully constructed custom layouts in MR is outweighed by the loss caused by (a) the lack of insight into how that custom layout was contracted, designed, and built (which is what I want to know, anyway) and (b) the percetion that new people might get that the only way to have those beautiful layouts is to buy one.  Point (b) goes hand-in-hand with that other hot-button issue of the decrease in true hands-on articles in MR.

If this makes me judgmental, then I guess I'm guilty.  We are all judgmental about some things in our lives whether we wish to be or not.

My own feeling, Dave, is that this whole thread is a tempest in a teapot. To a certain extent I agree with you. OTOH, I don't see any harm in the occasional article about someone's custom built layout, especially when the owner had considerable input into the process (conceptual, if not actual construction). I really don't see how people can get the idea that the only way to get a beautiful layout is to have one built as long as such articles only appear every so often. Someone upstream mentioned the FEC layout that appeared (IIRC) in MR in 2001. In remembering that article, I don't see any way that the actual builder could have come up with the layout without massive input from the purchaser, up to and including massive documentation on the line. Someone knew the FEC cold and I think we can rule out the contractor simply because the contractor wasn't likely to be an FEC expert. Lance Mindheim could probably build someone a great Monon layout with minimal input from the purchaser, but would need extensive documentary input if building, say, Southern Pacific's climb out of San Luis Obispo or Santa Fe's Peavine line. Were Mindheim or any other builder to build such a layout for me, you better believe that I'd be a very nitpicky customer and that the design would be my baby even if most or all of the construction were undertaken by someone else.

We all have things that we find unacceptable for ourselves. For instance, there was an article in GMR 2008 on the Bona Vista. Just looking at the pictures, my own opinion was that it wasn't up to the level of Tom Johnston's Logansport & Indiana Northern or Jay Miller's Panhandle & Santa Fe. Compounding that impression was the excruciating (for me) anachronism of using a lettering font that screams 80's or later on a layout supposedly set on 1953. I look for layouts that, at a very minimum, have to be nitpicked to find era anachronisms. If something obvious destroys the illusion, that's it for me and it doesn't belong in GMR. However, except for here, I'm not going to comment on it because I think that for the most part GMR lives up to its name. GMR 2008 was one of the better ones as far as I'm concerned. OK, it had a dud in it (from my point of view). I suppose if it had been a custom built layout, that would be adding insult to injury, but the guy built it himself. It just wasn't my cup of tea. Whether or not it would inspire someone else to do likewise, I don't know. In any case, the builder obviously enjoys his layout and that ain't bad. He scratchbuilds and that ain't bad. He likes to operate, sort of, and that ain't bad. Now, if he'd just strip everything and letter his equipment using a font like Railroad Roman, the world would be a better place (from my perspective). Of course, the guy does have a working layout and I don't so he's way ahead of my game. Who am I to judge? Right now, I have nothing to show. Everything's packed away for at least the next several months.

And you are right, we are all judgmental to one degree or another. We just don't have to be vocal about it. My own internal standards are such that no layout that isn't designed for operation or adapted for operation, is not uniformly era specific and doesn't show at least an informed layman's knowledge of the prototype is of little value to me personally. It doesn't have to be based on a specific prototype, but if it's freelanced it should project a unified theme. Eric Brooman's Utah Belt comes to mind. Anything less is, for me, just a glorified train set even if it's a pretty one. However, this is the only public place you're going to hear that from me

I earlier mentioned Tom Johnson's Logansport & Indiana Northern. Of all the layouts in GMR 2008, that one raises the bar (Jim Six's photos certainly don't hurt). Ironically, it's scenically "boring" with no mountains, no bridges of any kind and it's of an era and location that do nothing for me. It's also very simply constructed. If ever there was an inspirational layout, however, that one is it. I wish it had appeared in MR instead of GMR, although it certainly belongs in the latter and raises the bar a bit.

I've rambled too long and I have a drip irrigation system to build. I suppose I could get it custom built, but I like doing things like that. Besides, they sell complete kits now. Can't even call them "craftsman" kits, either. I really don't care if the elitist editors of "Classic Sprinkler Systems" insist that if you don't use iron pipe, a pipe threader, iron nipples, tees, plugs, caps, brass sprinkler heads and pipe dope, then you ain't a "real" sprinkler system builder because any idiot can use plastic kits from Home Depot or Lowes. It's my system and I'll build it any way I want to. Besides, if it gets water to where it's needed I'll be satisfied.

Andre

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave Vollmer]

There seems to be an idea that having a layout featured in MR is an award of some kind, attesting to the owners achievements as a model railroader. I'm afraid I don't see it that way.  It's a good article or it's not - this one I thought was good. 

If you're interested in an achievement program and awards then you should join the NMRA.  They have such a program where your work is judged and awards made.  Get enough and you get awarded "Master Model Railroader" and can put MMR after your name.

For me, if you think you are a model railroader, then you are and welcome to the club. 

as usual just my

Enjoy

Paul 

I've thought about doing the MMR thing.

But I also don't want folks to think I'm looking for accolades myself.  I'm not.

When I first came in the service 12 years ago I was obsessed with earning awards and medals.  But I had a crusty old station chief, a man I greatly admired (and whose funeral I went to earlier this month), who taught me two things about that.  Number 1, if I'm good, I don't need to tell anyone.  They'll see for themselves.  Number 2, if the troops (or in this case, you guys) see me obsessed with my own advancement and not their welfare, they'll lose all respect for me.  Soon enough I had decided to focus on my people and on my job.  You know what?  That's when the accolades came.  Since then I have always been careful to pass my accolades and recognition on to my troops rather than to keep them for myself.

And so I pass along credit to those who've inspired me in the hobby when that recognition is due.

I understand that my position on this has probably caused me to lose some respect among you guys.  I hope not, but I'm realistic about it.  I can't say I'll wake up tomorrow and feel differently about custom model railroads; I still don't care for the idea.  But I will concede, as I have in the past, that my opinion in the matter doesn't invalidate anyone else's sense of enjoyment of the hobby, no matter what role they play in it.

EDIT:

FWIW, I'll try to gently and quietly back away from this thread, and leave you all to your regularly scheduled forum!  I didn't mean to cause such a ruckus...  Every now and then a thread presses one of my buttons so hard it sticks, as did this one.  My apologies to the OP for nearly hijacking the thread.

[R. T. POTEET]

Camaro, your

Buying a designed, engineered, and constructed layout from a person who does this for a living is no different that(sic) buying a custom built house.

is true enough; it becomes a horse of a different color, however, if you go around claiming that you built it yourself. If I recall correctly this is the issue that arose over the Key West Extension article that appeared in Model Railroader about ten years past; the actual builders of this layout objected that the rhetoric of this article implied that the owners of this layout had done the construction themselves.

This probably seems stupid but ownership issues do come up in courts of law; Carroll Shelby put his name on the side of his GT but the Ford trademark still stayed on the front end. If I go out and plop down twenty five thousand iron men for a Chevy, put a Smith trademark on the front end, and install custom built tail lights have I not manufactured a Smithmobile?

[SilverSpike]

My personal opinion is that what is gained by seeing beautifully constructed custom layouts in MR is outweighed by the loss caused by (a) the lack of insight into how that custom layout was contracted, designed, and built (which is what I want to know, anyway)...

The article did leave me wanting to know more too, as do many MR mag articles of late. And this seems like a missed opportunity for MR mag to take it to the next level and kick it up a notch with some "in-depth" online content for subscribers. Talk about being "elite", subscriber only content!

Case in point:(tooting my own horn here...sorry folks) Last year's MR April 2007 issue there was an article entitled Build a swinging gate for easy access to your model railroad, by Gary Hoover, and MR even posted some online content as a follow-up with a PDF included. But I was left empty handed, wanting to know more details. Well, this article ended up being a spring board for building my own swing gate, and eventually I wrote my own online article entitled Building a swing gate: an alternative to the duck under to share with those who might have a similar issue. Oh, and this tutorial is free for anyone who might need it!

[IRONROOSTER]

There seems to be an idea that having a layout featured in MR is an award of some kind, attesting to the owners achievements as a model railroader. I'm afraid I don't see it that way.  It's a good article or it's not - this one I thought was good. 

If you're interested in an achievement program and awards then you should join the NMRA.  They have such a program where your work is judged and awards made.  Get enough and you get awarded "Master Model Railroader" and can put MMR after your name.

For me, if you think you are a model railroader, then you are and welcome to the club. 

as usual just my

Enjoy

Paul 

[Dave Vollmer]

True enough, Crandell...

And my recourse is to not read those articles.  Although, as MR has thinned over these recent years, I usually do anyway...

Elitism is one of those tough nuts. 

On the one hand, pride is one of the 7 deadly sins.

On the other hand, pride in one's work and one's accomplishments is critical for maintaining one's work standards and esprit de corps.

So elitism is a strange bird.  It's a necessary evil sometimes.  So I have a habit from time to time of importing that sense of "earned accomplsihment" into my hobby.

But I also understand that it's probably not appropriate to apply that standard to something as broad and light-hearted as a hobby.

We all have a threshold between work and fun...  For some of us that threshold is closer to the "work" side than for others.  But, unless one is in the hobby as a profession, oe's sense of work should not exceed one's sense of fun.

[selector]

Okay, Dave, I am glad you have understood me....I can be abrasive in my message, and my devilish utilitarian side uses that to establish a basis on which to debate the issue without missing what I feel is the central point...if I am going to be able to participate.  The deontological side of me hopes, wincing, that I haven't singed too much.  Sorry if my words stung.

I think elitism is an apsiration...if it is healthy and not misguided.  Surely we don't discard athletic elitists as a bad thing.  We do need to have a cadre of folks who understand what can be achieved, and coaches who help some of us get there.  Along the way, necessarily, are many strewn bodies.  Why stand in judgement of them?  Why not encourage them to stand and continue, or just to stand?  I use analogies a lot, I hope that doesn't confuse people, but our hobby will be more robust with more people bringing more ideas.  Some of them may be auto mechanics who are incapable of thinking in 3-D to execute a three dimensional track plan.  But they may introduce something else that I would rather not miss, and if MR publishes that idea for me, in what way are they doing a disservice to the hobby?

We have recently discussed MR's role....it is to titillate, to encourage, but not to everyone.  It would have no readership if it appealed solely to the truly accomplished...as you doubtlessly are.

-Crandell

[Dave Vollmer]

Crandell et al.,  

I see what you're saying and I agree to a point.

But, I would add, that inclusiveness has a cost; the cost is the "watering down" of the existing group.  If the group is enriched more than it is weakened by inclusiveness, then, by all means, it should be done.  But, if more is lost than gained, perhaps not.

My personal opinion is that what is gained by seeing beautifully constructed custom layouts in MR is outweighed by the loss caused by (a) the lack of insight into how that custom layout was contracted, designed, and built (which is what I want to know, anyway) and (b) the percetion that new people might get that the only way to have those beautiful layouts is to buy one.  Point (b) goes hand-in-hand with that other hot-button issue of the decrease in true hands-on articles in MR.

If this makes me judgmental, then I guess I'm guilty.  We are all judgmental about some things in our lives whether we wish to be or not.

I'd rather read about a guy who built a layout by stapling grass mats to a ping-pong table, because he did it himself.  But you won't see that in MR, will you?  That's the true elitism, IMHO.

EDIT:

Case in point:  How about our own CudaKen?  He started with a loop of track and grass mat...  His layout is really starting to look like something.  Sure, it won't make the pages of GMR, but what he's done in a short time, with help, but mainly by his own labor, is pretty darned spectacular.  But I bet MR wouldn't do it.

[R. T. POTEET]

There are a lot of custom layout manufacturing firms advertise in the hobby press so there must be a market. I can't fathom a layout that I haven't sweat blood over but I know that there are people who, for one reason or another, either can't - or won't - devote time and energy to constructing a layout.

The only custom built layout I ever recall visiting was in the San Diego area and the model rail had a dedicated room of, I would guess, about 500 square feet which was obviously an add-on at the back of this house. The whole property exuded luxury - the whole neighborhood was luxurious for that matter - luxurious household furniture; luxurious car in the driveway; multi-hundred thousand dollar motor home parked under an awning adjacent to the house; etc, etc. This guy's layout was an island with an operating area in the middle; and the guy openly admitted that everything on this layout - which I found rather simple minded . . . . . . . . . . and boring - had been custom built for him. He had virtually no topographic scenery and his structures had been randomly selected and were very randomly placed. He was , however, running some very expensive brass steamers alongside some very cheap plastic diesels - his trackplan looked like something out of a toy train design manual; in point of fact, I got the distinct impression that, at one time this had been a Lionel set-up and all he had done was pull up the three rail track and lay down HO-Scale track in it's stead. It was weird but he was openly proud of it.

. . . . . . . . . . anyway, the kicker came when he was talking about a piece of rolling stock that, he said, needed a new truck; one of the visitors in there at the same time I was there took a look at this defective car and said that what was needed was to rebore and retap the hole in the bolster. "How do you do that?" "You chuck a tap in a pin vise." " What's a pin vise?" I about collapsed over backwards; after an expanation he said that he didn't have one of those so he'd have to take this car down to the hobby shop to get fixed. I have several pin vises just laying around and thought of offering to send him one . . . . . but he wouldn't have used it even if he had one.

That sure ain't me!!!

I don't think this rail was lazy; all that money had to come from someplace. As I have always said: Those who work hard get callouses; those who work smart get rich! . . . . . and have a model railroad layout!

And I have a lot of callouses!!!

[selector]

But, David, what is extreme about inclusiveness?  Where would the art world be without Dali and others who were almost irrational in their approach to their craft? 

I am saying that rigidity is an extreme in and of itself.  While the hobby seems to have no problem with those who insist on doing the bulk of their experience themselves, why do those people have a problem with those who do not?

Your way is already validated, but what we are discussing here is the validity of having much of one's experience in the hobby invalidated if it is not of one's own doing largely.  I think, and I hope you would accord as much validity to my own opinion as to your own, that there should be room for all kinds in the hobby.  I am not alone in having expressed that in this thread.

To stand as a group and point the finger at others is, sorry to say, entirely judgemental.  This is about singling out others who don't measure up in a way that you define; ergo, judgement.

That, my MRRing colleague, ie exclusive.  I don't think it enriches the hobby at all.  It is the same rigidity that you should hope to avoid in your faculty...with respect.

-Crandell

[Dave Vollmer]

Just a thought, but what if we, as a group, sent a pm to the MR editors telling them that we don't welcome input from dilettantes who submit articles when they have not built most of their structures and weathered their scratch built engines, and most certainly if a single screw was driven by someone other than the modeler him or herself?

That would be a strong and stern message to some of us, and to them, wouldn't it?  Would that be a succinct summary of our consensual opinion here?  So far?

Otherwise, how shall we water down the rigid standard that all of us embrace as we slide down that slippery slope to mediocrity?  Heaven forbid!

-Crandell

(Okay, yes, I'm being a wee bit sarcastic.)

EDIT:

If the intent is to put me on the defensive, you folks win.  I'm on the ropes.  I get it.  Because I'm not 100% in agreement you guys on this, I'm the "elitist" bad guy.  Got it.

Heaven forbid someone express an unpopular opinion without being heaped upon by sarcasm.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised.  I really thought we could have a decent conversation on this subject without "high horse," "looking down your nose," and heaping helpings of sarcasm.

Yet I am made out to be the one who's being non-constructive...

Sarcasm and rankor are typically the refuge of those who have run out of cogent points to argue.  I feel as if I tried to keep this civil.

[SilverSpike]

To each his own! I don't give a rats behind hoot if someone wants to blow their money on having their layout built.

If someone has the money and can afford to contract out the work of building a layout, more power to em! Probably gets the layout up a lot faster than the DIY folks, (BTW that includes yours truly!)

I consider myself a DIY kinda guy, not just for building my layout, but for around the house too. I take pride in doing tasks around the house that most people have to pay to "get er done"! Like painting (interior/exterior), minor electrical work, carpentry, flooring, dry wall, woodworking, etc... I save a lot of hard earned dough ($$$) by doing it myself around the house. Now the stuff I will not do is roofing and major electrical like putting in a new circuit. I have worked with both, but do not have the skill set to do it reliably. Now, it might take me six months put that 900 sq. ft. of tile floor in working nights and weekends, but I saved a lot of money in the process, no, a ton of money! And I can say it did it myself! Pride!

I like the satisfaction I get when looking back at a finished project on the layout or in the home and knowing it was built with my hands, not someone else's. I also know what my skill set can handle, and when I don't have the skills I try to learn as much as I can about how to approach a new task.

Some folks have the skills and patience to get things done themselves and some don't. Those folks who don't' have the time, energy, or acumen have to pay to get it done! What's wrong with that?

I wish there were more folks out there looking to pay people to get their layout built; I would love to get paid to build em! Talk about a dream job, building model railroads and getting paid to do it!