SpaceMouse wrote:While you were replying I was fixing things. I have another runaround that should be able to hold all the cars I need for the forward facing tracks.
Ah - that extra runaround track w/engine pocket next to the depot track (?) looks good.
And you are right about long tunnel - I don't see any easy way to eliminate that one either.
I have no further objections, your honor
Grin, Stein
SpaceMouse wrote:
Mr. Spacemouse (others please excuse the temporary hijack)
Gotta have more details on that photo. Where? When? Are there more? Source?
enquiring minds want to know
Fred W
steinjr wrote: Ah - that extra runaround track w/engine pocket next to the depot track (?) looks good.
That is actually an icing platform. The depot is on the North side of the town across from the lumber yard.
I made a couple more refinements. I gave the sawmill/lumber yard an extra two city blocks. It is still a small operation, but on a layout I still wanted it to look pretty big.
I also combined the yard ladder with the runaround. This gives me an extra foot on each yard track. Makes it almost useful. I also added back the double slip so that the track to the sawmill can double as the yard lead. It was a win-win move.
Now if I can only figure out how to get some of the run from Train City to Rock Ridge exposed without crowding the scene with too many tracks.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
fwright wrote: Mr. Spacemouse (others please excuse the temporary hijack)Gotta have more details on that photo. Where? When? Are there more? Source?enquiring minds want to knowFred W
They are from the Clark Kinsey collection at the University of Washington. I've downloaded over a thousand images of logging operations from 1900-1945. They range from N. CA to WA. Right up your alley. We'll talk with you again in about a week. That's how much time I spent there a couple years ago. Enlightening stuff about what really went on.
Clark Kinsey Collection
SpaceMouse wrote:They are from the Clark Kinsey collection at the University of Washington. I've downloaded over a thousand images of logging operations from 1900-1945. They range from N. CA to WA. Right up your alley. We'll talk with you again in about a week. That's how much time I spent there a couple years ago. Enlightening stuff about what really went on. Clark Kinsey Collection
Thank you very, very much. I'll be surfing there in my all-of-a-sudden little spare time. I have taxes to finish, and picked up a temping job.
thanks, and now back to design critiques
SpaceMouse wrote: ...Now if I can only figure out how to get some of the run from Train City to Rock Ridge exposed without crowding the scene with too many tracks...
...Now if I can only figure out how to get some of the run from Train City to Rock Ridge exposed without crowding the scene with too many tracks...
This solution would only work if there was enough space in the room with the helix. You could move the helix to the left and rotate it 90 degrees. Then about half of the run to rock ridge could be exposed on a shelf in that room by running track through holes in the wall. However this would make it hard to follow your train because you would have to walk back and forth between rooms to see all of its run.
A classic bowl of spaghetti track plan which were quite popular some decades back. I don't mean that to sound critical since these spaghetti bowls were a way of compressing a long main line run into a small space. It took a while but I think I finally figured out the schematic. It is essentially an oval between Rock Ridge and the helix with a stub end yard to/from Train City and a cutoff track at the top center of the plan. This cutoff track sends trains back to Train City in the opposite direction in which they left the yard. However, if this cutoff track bypasses Train City it continues around and re-enters the Rock Ridge/helix oval in the same direction as it left the oval. This works fine for an out and back operation to/from Train City but the problem I see is that the cutoff track does not reverse directions on the continuous run portion of the line. Once trains get moving in one direction on the oval, they aren't going to be able to use the cutoff track to reverse directions on that oval. Any train leaving Train City is destined to follow a counter clockwise direction through the upper oval. Any train moving in a clockwise direction has no cutoff track to reverse direction. It will remain on the Rock Ridge/helix oval unless you want to back it up into the cutoff track toward Train City. Now this may or may not be a problem depending on your operating scheme. The cutoff track at first glance appears to be a reversing section and electrically it is but schematically it is not because it doesn't reverse train direction on the oval.
This is explained much better than I can in John Armstrong's Track Planning for Realistic Operation, the bible of track planning as far as I and many others are concerned. If you don't have it, I suggest you get it and read carefully the chapter on schematics. He deals with these issues in a very easy to understand fashion.
jecorbett wrote: A classic bowl of spaghetti track plan which were quite popular some decades back. I don't mean that to sound critical since these spaghetti bowls were a way of compressing a long main line run into a small space. It took a while but I think I finally figured out the schematic. It is essentially an oval between Rock Ridge and the helix with a stub end yard to/from Train City and a cutoff track at the top center of the plan. This cutoff track sends trains back to Train City in the opposite direction in which they left the yard. However, if this cutoff track bypasses Train City it continues around and re-enters the Rock Ridge/helix oval in the same direction as it left the oval. This works fine for an out and back operation to/from Train City but the problem I see is that the cutoff track does not reverse directions on the continuous run portion of the line. Once trains get moving in one direction on the oval, they aren't going to be able to use the cutoff track to reverse directions on that oval. Any train leaving Train City is destined to follow a counter clockwise direction through the upper oval. Any train moving in a clockwise direction has no cutoff track to reverse direction. It will remain on the Rock Ridge/helix oval unless you want to back it up into the cutoff track toward Train City. Now this may or may not be a problem depending on your operating scheme. The cutoff track at first glance appears to be a reversing section and electrically it is but schematically it is not because it doesn't reverse train direction on the oval. This is explained much better than I can in John Armstrong's Track Planning for Realistic Operation, the bible of track planning as far as I and many others are concerned. If you don't have it, I suggest you get it and read carefully the chapter on schematics. He deals with these issues in a very easy to understand fashion.
Spaghetti bowl? Maybe. I think I have done a pretty good job of maintaining visual separation--instead of a nolix to two levels, I have it one level with the upper portion on the same mountain side. And even that is a logical diverging route.
Stien did a pretty good schematic, although some of the particulars changed a little in the revisions.
While it is true that trains can't reverse. Trains can be broken down at Train City and sent in the opposite direction. I guess if I really wanted to, I could do a runaround and take the same train back the way it came, but when does a prototype do that?
I'm not sure I really get what you are talking about. If want to railfan, I can send trains in either direction and have a loop, but most trains either originate from staging or are built at Train Ciy. Turns originate from Train City go to Rock Ridge and return.
What need do I have of turning trains?
jecorbett wrote: A classic bowl of spaghetti track plan which were quite popular some decades back. I don't mean that to sound critical since these spaghetti bowls were a way of compressing a long main line run into a small space. It took a while but I think I finally figured out the schematic. It is essentially an oval between Rock Ridge and the helix with a stub end yard to/from Train City and a cutoff track at the top center of the plan. This cutoff track sends trains back to Train City in the opposite direction in which they left the yard. However, if this cutoff track bypasses Train City it continues around and re-enters the Rock Ridge/helix oval in the same direction as it left the oval. This works fine for an out and back operation to/from Train City but the problem I see is that the cutoff track does not reverse directions on the continuous run portion of the line. Once trains get moving in one direction on the oval, they aren't going to be able to use the cutoff track to reverse directions on that oval. Any train leaving Train City is destined to follow a counter clockwise direction through the upper oval. Any train moving in a clockwise direction has no cutoff track to reverse direction. It will remain on the Rock Ridge/helix oval unless you want to back it up into the cutoff track toward Train City. Now this may or may not be a problem depending on your operating scheme. The cutoff track at first glance appears to be a reversing section and electrically it is but schematically it is not because it doesn't reverse train direction on the oval.
I tried to trace out the schematics, too.
This is how I interpret them based on the operating scheme Chip has described (click on drawing to enlarge) :
Guess it all depends on how you interpret the helix - as three different staging areas, or as part of a continuous run.
Smile, Stein
Skip..you are going to have a great logging layout. Gotta ask ya a dumb question. It looks to me the door swings into the train room. If it does is it possable to rework it to swing out. If that is possable you could regain the track seperation you were looking for, and shorten the tunnel. Just a thought..enjoy...John
jwar wrote: Skip..you are going to have a great logging layout. Gotta ask ya a dumb question. It looks to me the door swings into the train room. If it does is it possable to rework it to swing out. If that is possable you could regain the track seperation you were looking for, and shorten the tunnel. Just a thought..enjoy...John
Hi John,
I lived on both sides of the Feather River as a kid in Marysville and Yuba City and at age 5 my house butted up against the SP right-of-way. There was a road next to the house so we got both air horns and house shakes.
Here is the room layout. The door to the garage could swing out, but I wouldn't gain anything. I still need to be able to carry things in from the garage.
Other than the new passing siding, I like the original Rock City much better. It has basically become 4 parallel tracks with a kick off. The turntable seems to dominate the scene.
Also in Rock City - no station to serve the "town buildings"? Is it really a town or is it a labor camp for the mine or mill?
Texas Zepher wrote: Other than the new passing siding, I like the original Rock City much better. It has basically become 4 parallel tracks with a kick off. The turntable seems to dominate the scene.Also in Rock City - no station to serve the "town buildings"? Is it really a town or is it a labor camp for the mine or mill?
It is a small town supported by the mine, but there is also the tents and mine bunkhouses/etc.
I'm going to work with the turntable a little. I might go smaller that 90 foot.
You don't need anything bigger than 75 feet for a turntable. This can handle most 2-8-2s. Still, your layout would be most comfortable with 2-8-0s (57" drivers?) and 2-6-0s (63" drivers?). 4-4-0s won't have the necessary tractive effort on those grades, and the slower speeds necessitated by the sharp curves and steep grades wouldn't seem to require a four-wheeled leading truck of a 4-6-0. So, you could even do with a smaller turntable diameter than 75'.
Mark
Doesn't Rock City even deserve some minimal shelter for its railroad patrons? Gee, give them at least a roof and three walls. It can get darn cold (in addition to wet) at those altitudes!
SpaceMouse wrote:It is a small town supported by the mine, but there is also the tents and mine bunkhouses/etc. I'm going to work with the turntable a little. I might go smaller that 90 foot.
I'd go with a 60' turntable. Is there a reason they would have or need a 90' one? Who/what would be using it? IIRC, a 2-8-2 Mike will just fit on a 60' table.
-G-
markpierce wrote: Doesn't Rock City even deserve some minimal shelter for its railroad patrons? Gee, give them at least a roof and three walls. It can get darn cold (in addition to wet) at those altitudes!Mark
Station is built...
I have a 9" turntable, but I thought I measured my son's 2-8-0 against it and found it to be an inch short. I'll double check.
Shouldn't Train City include an interchange track/yard with a mainline RR???
Coaling tower/s?? Water Towers?? Sand House?? Ash Pit??
Track Scales??
Are Livestock, Mining, and Timber a logic mix of industries?? Would a Mine in the middle of town be a "good" idea?
If Rocky Ridge is the end of the line, while is staging needed beyond it? Note, adding staging between the two stations was an excellent idea!
Have fun
Looks like you've got good operating potential. It does seem a bit 'cramped' though. Some tracks come close to adjoining buildings leaving not too much room for scenery. Have you considered a 'train elevator' like one in MR in the past? It could be a manual one, not necessarily a fully automated, or powered one like in the article. If you did that, you'd have a nice double deck layout with each deck devoted to one town. I'm sure you could then use the space under the stairs to make a loop for display running on each deck. I had to cut out about 75% of what I wanted on my layout in order to get good operations even though I fought for a year to fit it in, but since I've done that, the operations seem more fluid and easier on the eye than trying to fit everything in with compromises.
Maybe place TC industries on one track that goes into the helix room. It'd be switched by a 'master pull', then cars would have to be switched into their proper order before being pushed into their off-stage spot. Maybe use two tracks, one full of cars and one empty, so you can swap cars easier: Shove the inbounds into one track, then pull the outbounds from the other track. Next op session, reverse the order. It takes a bit of fun out, but you still get to represent the industries (maybe more) and you don't have to cram a lot of buildings into a small town.
Does the yard need to be that big? Cars that don't move, don't make money. I'm not familiar with your era of modeling, but it seems like there wasn't a big surplus of cars back then.
I like the switching in TC, but I don't like the switchback to get to those industries. You've got to empty the tail track which has industries on it, to pull the cars from the other tracks.
I hate to criticize so many things since I have respect for your answers to many other threads, but since you asked... lol You do a great job of updating your track plans. These are only my observations, forgive me if some are ignorant. I'm trying to be nice so you'll invite me to operate on it once it's done. lol Keep up the great work!
http://delray1967.shutterfly.com/pictures/5
SEMI Free-Mo@groups.io
Interesting questions, Dog.
exPalaceDog wrote: Shouldn't Train City include an interchange track/yard with a mainline RR???
The original plan has the Rock Ridge Rail Road (RRRR) as leasing trackage rights on the SP Overland Route between Sacramento and Virginia City. Train City would then be used both for the SP and the RRRR, so there would be not exchange track per se, rather just switching of destinations in the yard. The SP would handle freight originating from or destined to points outside the RRRR territory and the RRRR everything in between. I haven't completely given up on this idea yet, but I like the Coastal Redwoods terrain better. I'm kinda toying with the idea that the RRRR is a subsidiary of the SP kinda like the NWP was starting about that time.
All there, just not labeled. Train City uses oil for fuel. Rock Ridge's Climax A is using scrap wood from the mill. There are coal deliveries to Train City, but only the foundry and the blacksmith use coal over oil.
Are Livestock, Mining, and Timber a logic mix of industries??
Livestock is not an industry per se, although there is the G&D ranch (owned by Al Gorre and Ben Dephetid) that operates though the forests. Mostly the pens are rest and feed as required by law. They are conveniently located near the Bear Wiz brewery which maintains a fairly large stable of harness horses for the delivery wagons. Both the Railroad and brewery are large customers of the feed and seed located on the same track.
Train City is the only engine exchange capable yard within two hours either direction. All through trains change engines here. There is also an icing platform.
Would a Mine in the middle of town be a "good" idea?
The Rock Ridge area is on three levels. The tipple and tracks are on the lower level. The mine is on a second level and the slag is tossed in the general direction of the lower level. The town is above the mine.
If Rocky Ridge is the end of the line, while is staging needed beyond it? Note, adding staging between the two stations was an excellent idea!Have fun
As mentioned before, both Train City and Rock Ridge are in the middle of the line.
I like the story of leasing trackage and it fits the Sierra area. But it doesn't fit the Redwood area as neatly.
Any gaps in my thinking detected?
A couple of additional thoughts for possible industries:
In 1910, many towns had a small electric generating plant, the "grid" was yet to come.
By 1910, it might be a dying industry, but many towns had a "gas works" making manufactured gas for street and home lighting. It was too expensive for heating. An octogon building holding a gas holder would be interesting.
In 1910, horse power often still had four legs. A feed mill was the gasoline wholesaler of the day.
Depending on what is being mined, some sort of smelter or refinery might be needed. Maybe some "beehive" coke ovens? A "stamp" mill? Flotation plant??
Don't forget that the "timber" mill could supply "props" to the local mines.
Also note that in general the people who supplied the miners made more money then the actual miners. A miners' supply or grocery supply company might be a good bet.
In the deep Comstock mines, the companies had to supply ice to the miners to keep them cool enough to work for short periods. An ice house might also be interesting?
exPalaceDog wrote: A couple of additional thoughts for possible industries:In 1910, many towns had a small electric generating plant, the "grid" was yet to come.
I envisioned Train City having electricity, but not Rock Ridge. The generating plant will be off layout.
By 1910, it might be a dying industry, but many towns had a "gas works" making manufactured gas for street and home lighting. It was too expensive for heating. An octogon building holding a gas holder would be interesting.In 1910, horse power often still had four legs. A feed mill was the gasoline wholesaler of the day.
That would be the foundry/refinery--to the right of the lumber yard.
The sole purpose of the Rock Ridge Timber Mill.
In the deep Comstock mines, the companies had to supply ice to the miners to keep them cool enough to work for short periods. An ice house might also be interesting?Have fun
Never thunk it.
Dog FYI,
When I had a more limber body I spent a lot of time hiking both the Coastal Mountains and Sierras. Quite often we could come upon domesticated cattle. There were quite a few small ranches scattered about. I have no qualms mixing cattle and timber industries in the same area.
Ok, it finally came to me the general reason I don't like about the plan.... It looks like the track was planned and the town/industries/mines were built around it. I get the impression that other than the railroad boom towns proper, things like the mine and the lumber mill were there first and the railroad had to figure out how to get tracks to them. This accounted for some really bizarre track configurations. In mountain areas railroads had to squeeze facilities into whatever flat space they could find - the DSP&P's turntable in the barn at the Alpine Tunnel comes to mind.
I think that is why I really like your original plan better than either of these re-do's. In fact, you were actually working around (building the railroad around) pre-existing stuff just like a prototype would.
TZ,
You are exactly right. I have the buildings so I was designing the railroad to fit. And then I made everything fit better.
I'll think about that some more.
After all, we take perfectly good engines and muck them up. Why not muck up the plan a little.
SpaceMouse wrote: exPalaceDog wrote: Track Scales??In 1909? Hadn't considered it. Do I need them?
exPalaceDog wrote: Track Scales??
In 1909? Hadn't considered it. Do I need them?
Since the railroad charges for transportation, the cars would need to be weighed somewhere in route.
Since material often falls over the top edges and leaks though the bottom of hopper cars, one would assume that the miner owners and originating carrier would want to do that early in the trip.
Also, note that a scale can generate a good deal of work for your yardmaster, if needed.
My first thought would be in Train City on the spur track coming off the yard ladder beyond the single cross over near the "Door to Garage" label. You seem to have a real short spur there which isn't useful for much else.
SpaceMouse wrote:Okay, where would you put the scale?
As much as we'd like, we can't always model all desirable facilities...a choice between a caboose track and scale track?...if you plan to originate/terminate trains, then a caboose track is essential....also, scale tracks are most useful if the track serving them is double-ended (but so are caboose tracks, and we have to make our compromises/choices.)