Hi Guys,
I thought I had settled on a plan, although I never quite was happy with it. Anyway, this is where we left it.
I had two problems with it. The operators space was small and there was a lot to do in that area. Maybe 3 people would have shared the area. Also, when leaving Rock Ridge, you go down into a tunnel to get over the mountains to Virginia City which is up.
The limiting factor is I was trying to save Tater Mountain from the original Rock Ridge and Train City.
Rock Ridge and Train City II--Revision 20
You can't tell from the drawing, but this is a very vertical layout. It climbs 20" from point B to point C. There are high canyon walls and tall trees 18-30". There are lots of trestles. Except for the passing sidings/runarounds/ A/D tracks which are flat, mainline grade is 2%. The long logging switchbacks are 4%.
Detail
There is not nearly as much switching in Version 20 as there was in Version 19, but there are more varied types of trains. A person bringing down logs will not interfere with a person switching Rock Ridge who will not interfere with the person working Train City Yard and Industries.
Version 19 was mostly town, Version 20 will tall trees on every wall. This fits my dream of a tall trees/small steam layout, where Version 19 only hinted at it.
A stream runs along in front of the lower track from B to Train City. Water shed from Rock Ridge flows under the track and along the front track to the canyon where it drops into the creek by the lower track.
There is a long tunnel from lower left to upper right A to A, basically from Train City to Rock Ridge.
Problems: There are several reach issues. In the Rock Ridge corner, there is the town, which once built may need occasional dusting. In the canyon corner, where the logging line goes to staging, the track can be cleaned/cleared from the staging side.
But there are turnouts at D that are 33" from the edge of the table. They are key, and will have to be worked via remote. Service will have to be done via a hanging platform like that in MicroMark--which I'll need anyway to work around the tall trees.
The mainline has a minimum 22" radius turns and #5 turnouts. The sidings have #4s. There are several places where turn radii get to 12" but they are logging runs with geared steam. The lumber mill also has tight turns, but the switcher is a Heisler that Randell "Rock" Ridge bought, found out it couldn't haul the timber loads he expected, and was relegated to switching when he couldn't sell it.
Power is small steam. 2-8-0, 2-6-2, 4-4-0, 4-6-0, etc. and geared. Rolling stock mostly 36' old time, log cars, and wooden ore gondolas. The gondolas will get use in many functions.
The railroad is still the 4R (Rock Ridge Railroad) but it no longer leases trackage rights from the SP.
This is a "first draft" of the new concept. I expect a lot of constructive criticism from you guys.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I apologize. I couldn't control myself.
Mark
Could you flip the saw mill complex 180 degrees and put the entrance switch next to the large "dot" at the bottom and the back of the mill up near D?
Take the brewery tracks and straighten them out so they end up stubbing under the "ST" in "Stock Yard". That will let you move the switch to #1 on the other side of the brewery switch, maybe curve it towards the yard, putting the brewery between the refinery and brewery tracks and the refinery on the "bottom" of the track.
Or, move the brewery to the inside and the small industry to the outsdie, then put the refinery switch in the curve (where the road crossing is) and flip it so its a switchback. The refinery building would be in the same place, maybe flipped end for end.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman wrote: Could you flip the saw mill complex 180 degrees and put the entrance switch next to the large "dot" at the bottom and the back of the mill up near D? Take the brewery tracks and straighten them out so they end up stubbing under the "ST" in "Stock Yard". That will let you move the switch to #1 on the other side of the brewery switch, maybe curve it towards the yard, putting the brewery between the refinery and brewery tracks and the refinery on the "bottom" of the track.Or, move the brewery to the inside and the small industry to the outsdie, then put the refinery switch in the curve (where the road crossing is) and flip it so its a switchback. The refinery building would be in the same place, maybe flipped end for end.Dave H.
Thanks Dave,
I'll play with that.
FYI: The large dot is a sawdust fume and the small industry by the brewery is part of the brewery complex.
It is a difficult to understand this layout without knowing better what is going on within the helix room. A track schematic would be helpful because I'm having difficulty figuring out the layout's overall scheme. Nevertheless, it seems to me that point B is the connection with the outside world and A-A is the connection between the two modeled towns. I don't know what you intend as to what the switchback extension to the helix room is or where it ends up. Is it to represent an end-of-the-line town? What does the continuation of the mainline track past Rock Ridge beyond the switchback junction into the helix room represent and where does it end up?
I don't understand the need for such a large vertical separation. And do you want to have trains spending most of their transit time hidden in the helix room while traveling from one level to another.
The aisle appears quite narrow (about 2 feet?) and will be insufficient for two people to pass each other unless one leaves the room.... Am I interpreting the plan correctly?
Access for occasional maintenance of the turnouts to turnouts serving the sawmill complex can be readily solved with a covered/sceniced access hatch in the town area. The real problem is that the tightly-curved track leads will create havoc with coupler alignment for coupling and uncoupling, resulting in the need for a permanent opening in the town area so the sawmill can be switched.
I don't see the utility of the extremely short runaround track in the yard. If such a track is needed (as for a arrival/departure of trains), the runaround track should be on the longest yard track, not the shortest.
The plan offers a lot of switching opportunities and should keep two operators busy.
Make sure any locos you plan on running can work the grades you have planned. I built a test track not only to test locos after repair or servicing but to test grades. You may think your small steamers can handle a 4% grade but it's better to find out now before you commit to it. Hook up a gondola to the loco with weight in it duplicating the estimated load you'll pull to be certain. I have a 4-6-0 brass loco that works all day pulling cars 10 cars on a 0% grade. But you put her (by herself) on anything above 2% and it's wheel slippage time.....and that's with a Sagami can motor. (and there's no room for weight in the boiler )
-G-
Chip,
What's the difference between the saw mill and the timber mill?
Is there a logging camp where the trees are going to come from to supply either of these industries? Is that what the "logging staging" is for?
Does the 4R interchange with any larger railroad?
Lateral-G wrote: Make sure any locos you plan on running can work the grades you have planned. I built a test track not only to test locos after repair or servicing but to test grades. You may think your small steamers can handle a 4% grade but it's better to find out now before you commit to it. Hook up a gondola to the loco with weight in it duplicating the estimated load you'll pull to be certain. I have a 4-6-0 brass loco that works all day pulling cars 10 cars on a 0% grade. But you put her (by herself) on anything above 2% and it's wheel slippage time.....and that's with a Sagami can motor. (and there's no room for weight in the boiler ) -G-
The steep grades on the switchback line are a great excuse for acquiring one or more geared locomotives. Also, the trains on the line will be quite short as their length is limited by the length of the switchback leads.
A couple of things, Chip. It seems quite "directional" in that it strongly favours one direction of work/travel, and I don't think you have managed to improve a rather serious drawback to overall fun...space to move around it and manage it. The operating pit is, in a word, teensy.
Looks like a layout I'd love, BTW.
-Crandell
markpierce wrote: It is a difficult to understand this layout without knowing better what is going on within the helix room. A track schematic would be helpful because I'm having difficulty figuring out the layout's overall scheme. Nevertheless, it seems to me that point B is the connection with the outside world and A-A is the connection between the two modeled towns. I don't know what you intend as to what the switchback extension to the helix room is or where it ends up. Is it to represent an end-of-the-line town? What does the continuation of the mainline track past Rock Ridge beyond the switchback junction into the helix room represent and where does it end up?
The staging at the end of the logging line represents a logging camp, etc. I didn't have room to model that camp so I represent it off layout.
The helix room represents all points north and all points south. It is the main staging area.
The vertical separation has to do with an Allenesque 3-d asceticism. Mountains give it reason and trains climb mountains.
During an ops session the helix (staging) is the final destination. During a railfan session I just set 3 - 4 trains going and that takes care of the off-layout time.
The narrow point is 2 ft. The operating area is 30" though. The person working the yard would not be in the same area as someone working Rock Ridge. However, through trains and the logging Shay would require the person to pass in the larger area.
The real solution is to get the switches out of there. Dave has some good suggestions. I'll keep working at it. I hate pop-ups.
You are probably right, I just don't see why I need to run around more than 3 cars to service the industries.
The plan offers a lot of switching opportunities and should keep two operators busy.Mark
Thanks.
It can handle more from an operational point of view, but it would be tight. The third person would be working staging and the fourth running, trains.
Daily there would be 3 turns, a (not daily) local, 2 through freights and passenger service--plus the switcher duties in each town. (Providing the staging guy can keep up.)
Most likely, it will be me and my son.
Mark is right. The 4% swichback is for my Shay.
Lateral-G wrote: Chip,What's the difference between the saw mill and the timber mill?
The timber mill is dedicated to making reinforcing timbers for the mine. The saw mills main contract is railroad ties, but they use the cut off pieces to make construction lumber to sell to the Train City residents.
If I expand the layout, I will have a logging camp, etc. You are right though, the staging implies the logging operation.
Does the 4R interchange with any larger railroad? -G-
Yes, the Southern Pacific and Northwestern Pacific.
selector wrote: A couple of things, Chip. It seems quite "directional" in that it strongly favours one direction of work/travel, and I don't think you have managed to improve a rather serious drawback to overall fun...space to move around it and manage it. The operating pit is, in a word, teensy.Looks like a layout I'd love, BTW. -Crandell
Thanks,
I think I did improve the pit. I took the Train City yardmaster out of it completely. Now there are only 1-2 max in there.
As for the bidirectional. Yes it does, but the railroad runs each way. North to South will have runaround moves. The turntable at Rock Ridge is there to turn engines, the crew coming up from Train City to get logs or ore, must turn drop empties, turn their engine, pick up their cargo and head back, so they get both directions in one run. The Shay coming down the hill with logs does the same thing, without turning the engine around.
Dave,
Thanks, I was able to move the turnouts out of the center. I did not change the runaround.
SpaceMouse wrote: Lateral-G wrote: What's the difference between the saw mill and the timber mill? The timber mill is dedicated to making reinforcing timbers for the mine. The saw mills main contract is railroad ties, but they use the cut off pieces to make construction lumber to sell to the Train City residents.
Lateral-G wrote: What's the difference between the saw mill and the timber mill?
Other than customer, there really is no difference between the two processes. In fact the "timber mill" can be less sophisticated than the "sawmill". Ties have to be specific types of wood and cut to very specific dimensions, lumber even more so. Mine props can be really rough, they don't even need to be fully square or entirely de-barked. The only real requirement is a certain minimum size and a set length. In the Pennsylvania mills, the big timber went to ties and lumber and the smaller timber went to mine props. If a tree was too small to cut it for lumber it could be a mine prop.
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
stebbycentral wrote:Guess the one thing that gets my attention is that one very long length of tunnel track buried up against the walls. That section that runs from tunnel entrances A to A. I would hope that your intention is to employ some form of hard shell scenery, leaving a generous open space beneath. That is the only way I can see which will allow you to gain access from underneath the layout to any point on that portion of the line, to clear the inevitable derailment or stalled train.
Hollow and accessible without strain.
dehusman wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: Lateral-G wrote: What's the difference between the saw mill and the timber mill? The timber mill is dedicated to making reinforcing timbers for the mine. The saw mills main contract is railroad ties, but they use the cut off pieces to make construction lumber to sell to the Train City residents. Other than customer, there really is no difference between the two processes. In fact the "timber mill" can be less sophisticated than the "sawmill". Ties have to be specific types of wood and cut to very specific dimensions, lumber even more so. Mine props can be really rough, they don't even need to be fully square or entirely de-barked. The only real requirement is a certain minimum size and a set length. In the Pennsylvania mills, the big timber went to ties and lumber and the smaller timber went to mine props. If a tree was too small to cut it for lumber it could be a mine prop.Dave H.
Dave--
The geology in California is much different than that of Pennsylvania, and the area that Chip is modeling--that of the Coast Range--is that of a very young mountain range, in fact still being formed by Tectonic movement, and one that has actually not really solidified into the older rock that is found either in the Appalachians or even the neighboring Sierra Nevada (itself, a much younger range than Eastern topography). Out here, mining timbers were generally very well milled, very sturdy and actually much thicker than railroad ties. In fact, one of the reasons that California forests were cut over so thoroughly in the 19th and early 20th century was to supply sturdy timber for the gold and silver mines in the area. Oddly enough, the best timber was reserved for the mines, the secondary timber was milled for railroad ties.
Go figure, LOL!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Hi Skip.
As previously stated elevations would be a great help or and arrow at start and end of grades.
Being your modeling my neck of the woods I think you should loose those long tunnels for a series of shorter ones, the main reason is that logging railroads avoided them like the plague, very short one's create interest, and you have the possability of some really niftey stacked logging trackwork along the back wall and the possability of new or older abanden log landings along the route (even on grade) as well as steam donkey trails and cable runs disapearing into the forrest. Even your swich back could swing over/under the main line twice, making for some interesting trestle and ravine work.
Just my two cents....John
For those that want elevations.
Hi Mouse,
I have two comments, one general and one specific.
By having the engine escape crossover on the shortest tracks in the yard you'll be restringing the length of train that can pull into the yard and get the engine out. Perhaps this should be on the longer tracks?
I was trying to visualize how this would operate. It seems that the major yard is aimed at sending trains to the 'left'. These trains immediately dive into a major chunk of hidden track finally emerging in the Rock Ridge area. It appears the primary train traffic will be 1) orbital - just let 'em run, and 2) between the yard and rock ridge 3) your shay going back and forth between the woods and the timber mill.
It seems that a huge portion of the trip around the layout is hidden. In fact one of the longer stretches of visible track (not counting the switch back to the timber) appears to be from the city/yard counter clockwise but this appears to be unused track for trains heading from city/yard to Rock Ridge (and back). Do you really want a large portion of the run to be in hidden track? And that track is on a grade - when going up hill you will become anxious about whether a train is still moving, when going down hill trains are likely emerge out of the bottom tunnel portal going faster than the citizens of Rock Ridge trying to escape from Mongo.
What if you take that long A-A tunnel and shorten it a whole bunch bringing it out along the 'north' side of the rock ridge aisle heading 'east', it goes around the turnback curve and then enters Rock Ridge which gets flipped and relocated westward. You'll also need to do a bit of relocation on that switch back to the nosebleed logging operation. Keep the track from the city/yard heading counter clockwise more or less the same. But can you flip the yard polarity so that the throat is at the upper right part of the peninsula instead of the lower left? If you can do this it will further extend the visible run between the city and rock ridge.
It's your railroad but if I were building it I'd want to maximize the distance between town and I'd want as much of it as possible visible so I could admire the trains running through all the gorgeous scenery...
Just my $.02 worth.
These sugestions are free and quite likely are worth every penny.
Regards,
Charlie 'now we gotta go round up a whole s*** load of dimes' Comstock
BCSJ wrote: Hi Mouse,I have two comments, one general and one specific. By having the engine escape crossover on the shortest tracks in the yard you'll be restringing the length of train that can pull into the yard and get the engine out. Perhaps this should be on the longer tracks?
I meant to change on the last revision, I just forgot.
The daily trains would be:
--Freights from north and south changing power at Train City, dropping cars and picking up.
--Passenger local North and South chaning power at Train City.
--Daily Shay bringing down logs from logging camp(staging) to Rock Ridge Siding. Some to timber mill, rest to siding to be picked up and taken to Train City. Pick-up empties and return to camp.
--Daily turn to pick-up logs to be taken to Train City lumber mill. Drop off empties.
--Turn-Every other day pick-up ore from mine and leave empties.
--Weekly local freight.
It seems that a huge portion of the trip around the layout is hidden. In fact one of the longer stretches of visible track (not counting the switch back to the timber) appears to be from the city/yard counter clockwise but this appears to be unused track for trains heading from city/yard to Rock Ridge (and back). Do you really want a large portion of the run to be in hidden track? And that track is on a grade - when going up hill you will become anxious about whether a train is still moving, when going down hill trains are likely emerge out of the bottom tunnel portal going faster than the citizens of Rock Ridge trying to escape from Mongo.What if you take that long A-A tunnel and shorten it a whole bunch bringing it out along the 'north' side of the rock ridge aisle heading 'east', it goes around the turnback curve and then enters Rock Ridge which gets flipped and relocated westward. You'll also need to do a bit of relocation on that switch back to the nosebleed logging operation. Keep the track from the city/yard heading counter clockwise more or less the same. But can you flip the yard polarity so that the throat is at the upper right part of the peninsula instead of the lower left? If you can do this it will further extend the visible run between the city and rock ridge.It's your railroad but if I were building it I'd want to maximize the distance between town and I'd want as much of it as possible visible so I could admire the trains running through all the gorgeous scenery... Just my $.02 worth.These sugestions are free and quite likely are worth every penny.Regards,Charlie 'now we gotta go round up a whole s*** load of dimes' Comstock
You'd think that if I was going to have a scenic railroad that I would have had more railroad exposed. Ideally I would expose the section of track between Train City and Rick Ridge, but when I do I can't get the vertical climb needed to cross over myself in the Rock Ridge area. Still it's worth trying again. If I do pull it off, it will be worth about 3" off my helix climb.
Here are a few things that stand out -
SpaceMouse wrote:You'd think that if I was going to have a scenic railroad that I would have had more railroad exposed. Ideally I would expose the section of track between Train City and Rick Ridge, but when I do I can't get the vertical climb needed to cross over myself in the Rock Ridge area. Still it's worth trying again. If I do pull it off, it will be worth about 3" off my helix climb.
What if you punch the log track through the wall into the helix space? Not that I'd say put a lot of it in there, but it might buy you enough to make it possible. Or bring the log track off somewhere else other than the end of rock ridge.
Charlie Comstock
jktrains wrote: Here are a few things that stand out - Reverse the yard and roundhouse in Train City - coupling and uncoupling cars in the yard will require the operator to reach over the roundhouse/turntable area. A recipe for problems, especially with young kids.
I'll play with this one. Right now the ladder track is a natural feed to the cattle pens.
Access to the industries in TC is only through a series of switchbacks and turnouts that take you into the yard. This will limit what you can store in the yard and the abilityy to work the yard. Redesign along with the comment above so that the industries are accessed off the passing/runaround track at the front of TC
This one is so obvious I want to bang my head an go "Doh!"
The long section of hidden trackage when leaving TC is sure to cause problems if a train derails. There is not indicated areas of access to this track. Especially compounded since out is up against 2 walls.
There should be about a foot of clearance above and in front of the track everywhere except Rock Ridge.
The TT in Rock Ridge is unnecessary. It really only serves one track yet tacks up a lot of real estate. The access to the coaling/sanding (?) track and the other engine track can be accomplished with turnouts in a smaller space. In prototype practice TTs were rather expensive items to build and maintain. Unless they were serving a a larger number of tracks a compound ladder would suffice.
It is unnecessary for the Climax A that will switch that area, (the service track runs scrap from the mill for fuel). The real reason for the simple TT, is to turn the engine running the logging and ore turns from Train City so they don't have to back down the mountain. Kinda like this one:
The switchback track next to the pipe seems to have very little clearance. Removing the TT in RR would allow the trackage to be relocated away from the pipe.There appears to be a few areas where vertical clearance between tracks will cause scenery issues from too tight a spacing requring lengths of retaining walls or rock cliffs.
You're right I plan a lot of cliffs and steep mountains with trestle embankments and retaining walls and bridges.
Here is version 21. You'll see most of the problems brought up by you guys are gone--with the exception of the long tunnel. Everything is smoother in the cities. I lost a classification track and the last one is smallish.
Problems: Have to switchback to get to the caboose track beneath the turntable in Train City. Engine services is also tight in Train City. I lost the quick escape for the engine returning to Train City from Rock Ridge.
Note: The pipe in Rock Ridge is actually round and slants. It is not as close to the track as it looks.
SpaceMouse wrote: BCSJ wrote: I was trying to visualize how this would operate. It seems that the major yard is aimed at sending trains to the 'left'. These trains immediately dive into a major chunk of hidden track finally emerging in the Rock Ridge area. It appears the primary train traffic will be 1) orbital - just let 'em run, and 2) between the yard and rock ridge 3) your shay going back and forth between the woods and the timber mill.The daily trains would be:--Freights from north and south changing power at Train City, dropping cars and picking up. --Passenger local North and South chaning power at Train City.--Daily Shay bringing down logs from logging camp(staging) to Rock Ridge Siding. Some to timber mill, rest to siding to be picked up and taken to Train City. Pick-up empties and return to camp.--Daily turn to pick-up logs to be taken to Train City lumber mill. Drop off empties. --Turn-Every other day pick-up ore from mine and leave empties.--Weekly local freight.
BCSJ wrote: I was trying to visualize how this would operate. It seems that the major yard is aimed at sending trains to the 'left'. These trains immediately dive into a major chunk of hidden track finally emerging in the Rock Ridge area. It appears the primary train traffic will be 1) orbital - just let 'em run, and 2) between the yard and rock ridge 3) your shay going back and forth between the woods and the timber mill.
I've tried to trace out the apparent schematics of your layout from the plan:
Edit. I just realized that what I labelled as turning wye above is really a second switchback on the way up to the logging camp - got fooled by the staging helix playing two different parts at right (north ?) end of the schematic. Corrected (?) schematic:
Is it about right now ?
Are you planning to have a geared engine push empty cars ahead of it from Rock Ridge up to the logging camp, and come downhill again with the engine on the downhill side of the loaded cars ?
You probably should assign a name to the junction where the steep 4% logging w/switchbacks line joins the gentler incline (2%) mainline. Or is this the "Rock Ridge Siding" you referred to in a previous post ?
One thing I would recommend is maybe breaking that long tunnel between Train City and Rock Ridge into several shorter tunnels - both for dramatic looks (tunnel-bridge over ravine-tunnel) and for access.
The points others have made about the switchbacks in Train City and the engine escape/run around in Train City also seems like points you might want to try to tweak a little.
Smile, Stein
SpaceMouse wrote: Here is version 21. You'll see most of the problems brought up by you guys are gone--with the exception of the long tunnel. Everything is smoother in the cities. I lost a classification track and the last one is smallish. Problems: Have to switchback to get to the caboose track beneath the turntable in Train City. Engine services is also tight in Train City. I lost the quick escape for the engine returning to Train City from Rock Ridge.
I like what you have done with Rock Ridge, and I mostly like what you have done with Train City.
Only thing I wonder about is how you plan to run an engine around cars while switching Train City - four of your six industry tracks in Train City seem to be facing tracks, relative to the yard orientation.
I think you still might need a runaround somewhere in the yard. Maybe it is worth sacrificing the leftmost 2/3rds of the second longest yard track as a combined runaround/engine escape track ? You can still use this track for classification when you are setting up an outbound train.
Stein