train lover12 wrote:that is not wat i meant. i know how to build it wat i mean is that A)wat is the best way to make angled edges?B)how far apart should the struts that the 1/4" tabletop rests on be?C)wat are the best materials to use (opinions)?D)wat is the best way to make legs? (ive seen at least 3 different ways)
that is not wat i meant. i know how to build it wat i mean is that
A)wat is the best way to make angled edges?
B)how far apart should the struts that the 1/4" tabletop rests on be?
C)wat are the best materials to use (opinions)?
D)wat is the best way to make legs? (ive seen at least 3 different ways)
I'd use Linn Westcott's "L-girder" construction. An L-girder is a piece of 1*4 wood and a piece of 1*2 wood fastened together to make an L shape. Make four L girders, running lengthwise down the room, two of them running down the walls and the other two out at the aisle edge of your table. Cut legs from 2*8 to hold the L-girders up off the floor. Space the legs out four foot or so. Make diagonal braces for the legs to prevent an accidental shove or kick knocking the leg out of place. Fasten the legs to the L-girders with drywall screws. If the floor is uneven (the usual case) put big screws into the floor end of the legs and use a wrench to level the table by turning the screw in or out.
With the L -girders up, lay joists (struts) of 1*4 on edge running from the aisle back to the wall every 2 feet. Then lay your 1/4 inch plywood on top of the joists. Finish off the aisle edge of the table with 1*4 set vertically, nailed to the ends of the joists, and high enough to hide the edge of the plywood to improve the looks.
Cut the angled joints in the aisle edge of the table with a hand saw, or a power saw if you have access to one. I would use plain 1*4 lumber for joists and table edge rather than plywood. The lumber is about the same price as ply wood, and stronger down the length of it than plywood. Ripping plywood into 4 inch strips is tedious with a hand saw. Doing it with a skilsaw and a pair of saw horses it is hard to get a truly straight cut. The 1*4 "dimensional lumber" comes ripped to width, all you have to do is cross cut it to length, an easier job.
Assume you are using flex track or snap track. This has to be fastened down to something. You can fasten your track right to the plywood with latex caulk, but I don't recommend that, it's noisy. Ply wood doesn't take track nails, the glue layers are so hard the nails bend as you push them in. I would lay either homosote ( a paper based sheet material, comes in 4*8 sheets, deadens sound and take tracknails well) or construction "blue" or "pink" foam on top of the plywood and lay your track on top of the foam. Foam can be carved into scenery with nothing fancier than a kitchen steak knife. Down side to foam, it doesn't take fasteners of any kind, you had to glue your track down to it.
Good luck
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
The best thing to do is get one of the books mentioned on benchwork. A copy may even be available in your public library. I can't stress how critical this is.
You're going to need some basic carpentry skills. Familarity with jig saws, power drills, tape measures, etc. is very helpfull.
The basic material will be standard pine lumber at your lumber yard or home improvement store (Lowes, Home Depot, etc.)
In a nut shell:
1x4's (these are parts of the L-girder)
1x2's (used for L-girder tops as well as cross bracing)
2x2's (used for legs)
These all come in 8 foot lengths. Hopefully you'll have a way to transport these from the store to your house.
You'll need some plywood as well. 3/4" inch with one side faced is best. But beware a 4x8 sheet is very heavy. Some places will saw it for you to managable sizes (4x4, 2x8, 3x8, etc.) but you better know well in advance what sizes you want it ripped to.
You'll need some 1/4 ply to make gussets for the leg suports.
Wood screws are going to be required. Usually 100 deg c'sink (countersink)ones are best. A c'sink drill is recommended for drilling the holes for these (various sizes are available for the screws you plan to use)
You may need carriage bolts, lag bolts, washers, wing nuts, etc. Once again review of the suggested reading material will help enormously. (I cannot over state this)
You'll need some saw horses to support your lumber as you cut it.
You'll need various clamps (spring, c-clamps, etc.) to hold things together while assembling.
I am sure there is more you'll need to know and tools you'll need that I can't come up with off the top of my head right now.
There are no "best ways" to make any of the things you asked about. Angles cuts can be made with sabre saws, jig saws, compound miter saws or table saws. Some are easier to do than others but each tool, when used properly will acheive the desired result. Just as there are various materials you can use. What works for me may not be what works for you. I gave you suggestions of tried and true materials proven over years and years of layout building by thousands of Model Railroaders. Same is true of the leg supports. Find a design you like and go with it.
If you can, find a local club and see what they do for benchwork. But above all go out and find some books or DVD's on building model railroads. Many, many, many books have been written on "project" railroads that have sections on benchwork. There's an ecellent DVD by Green Frog Productions on building an HO railroad. I suggest getting that and watching it. (I think it's called The Apple Valley).
hth
-G-
train lover12 wrote: no kiddingactually im not going with that trackplan anymore it was too big on serious examination well it could but the room is about 15x12' and its my bedroom so im going with an unfolded dogbone ill post the plan when it gets computerized i have it all finished on my floor and have already had one operating sessionits about 4-5x10'
no kidding
actually im not going with that trackplan anymore it was too big on serious examination
well it could but the room is about 15x12' and its my bedroom so im going with an unfolded dogbone ill post the plan when it gets computerized i have it all finished on my floor and have already had one operating session
its about 4-5x10'
Great! I think that's a wise decision -- you really should start small until you're sure you're ready for a big one. I hope it gave you some inspiration, though. That was the purpose. I think you'll find that, once you start models and scenery, that you will have more than enough to fill your free time.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Some online articles
http://users.adelphia.net/~brmetcalf/rr/bench.htm
http://rail.felgall.com/lg.htm
You can google for lots more.
Chris
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Train Lover-
You are learning a lot! And that is what I think is the best part of this hobby! The planning, thinking, designing, carpentry, electrical, and artistic skills are so wide and varied, and they will serve you a lifetime, at home, at school, and even (oh no!) at work! Taking a litte time to learn now will make the whole project so much more satisfying in the end, too!
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
MisterBeasley wrote: Have you talked with your grandfather about this? It sounds like he knows what he's doing, and could give you excellent guidance. If he's available, this would be a great project for the two of you to do together.Your layout diagram is coming through fine, by the way. I'm a bit concerned about how narrow your aisle is, though.
Have you talked with your grandfather about this? It sounds like he knows what he's doing, and could give you excellent guidance. If he's available, this would be a great project for the two of you to do together.
Your layout diagram is coming through fine, by the way. I'm a bit concerned about how narrow your aisle is, though.
The aisle should be about 20", which is the interior decorating standard for "minimum distance" for a passage. Sure, if you're trying to get two people chasing trains with walkaround throttles, that's tight, but we're talking about a young man operating solo here. He's limited to an 8x10 space, so you make some sacrifices. Plus, I served on submarines. You'd be amazed at how you can squeeze into tight spaces when you have to.
If you're going to put a liftout section of scenery in the middle of the loop, that will work, but use foam, not plywood for your base. It'll be lighter for you to lift, and you won't have to worry so much if you accidentally whack something as you lift it out.
Now you start to see what we mean by, "just because you have a drawing doesn't mean you're ready to lay track".
how do i make the aisle bigger without making the plan bigger?
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
CTValleyRR wrote: train lover12 wrote: the side with the switchback will be freestanding the other side i will make a pull out section of benchwork in the "end" of the dogboneand i will follow ur adviceSo the left side of the drawing as you posted it above will be freestanding? Hmmm. You're not planning to disconnect and reconnect track are you? That's got trouble written all over it. I think I said before -- I'm 6' tall, my layout is 4'8" wide, and I have trouble reaching the center. However, it DOES sound like you've thought about how to deal with the problem, and that's a good thing.Also, maybe someone will correct me, but I've always referred to the benchwork as the wooden frame that holds everything up (the legs and underneath supports and bracing), not the table surface on which the track rests.BTW, on plywood thickness, I think you can get by with 1/2" so long as you don't run too far between braces, since the EZ Track has some structural integrity by itself.
train lover12 wrote: the side with the switchback will be freestanding the other side i will make a pull out section of benchwork in the "end" of the dogboneand i will follow ur advice
the side with the switchback will be freestanding the other side i will make a pull out section of benchwork in the "end" of the dogbone
and i will follow ur advice
So the left side of the drawing as you posted it above will be freestanding? Hmmm. You're not planning to disconnect and reconnect track are you? That's got trouble written all over it. I think I said before -- I'm 6' tall, my layout is 4'8" wide, and I have trouble reaching the center. However, it DOES sound like you've thought about how to deal with the problem, and that's a good thing.
Also, maybe someone will correct me, but I've always referred to the benchwork as the wooden frame that holds everything up (the legs and underneath supports and bracing), not the table surface on which the track rests.
BTW, on plywood thickness, I think you can get by with 1/2" so long as you don't run too far between braces, since the EZ Track has some structural integrity by itself.
oh when i mean benchwork i also mean the tabletop and by supports i mean the things kinda like studs in a wall but the wall is the tabletop the legs are the things that hold the table up
wat do you mean by disconnect and reconnect track? im just jutting a hole in the bewnchwork in the wide loop.
Thank you, Peter, for the reminder. I allowed my frustration to emerge in my previous post, and I apologize to all.
Trainlover, please take this one step at a time, and heed Peter's posts about safety.
As far as the 40" reach is concerned, I figured the long legs were free standing (that is, the 8' side against the wall), so that the reach to the center of the peninsulas was only about 20". Am I right?
Also, I'll reiterate my point above, which may have been obscured by the attitude: there are no right and wrong ways to build benchwork, only different ways. You seem to have a handy resource in your grandfather. I'd use it. If that's not practical, you really should get a book for this one. Something you can read a few times, and refer to as you work will be the ticket. Can you get to a library that might have one, or at least an old copy of Model Railroader which might have some instructions you can photocopy? If not, my personal opinion is that would be $20 well spent at the LHS.
With all due respect to everyone involved, I need to jump in with three comments here:
(1) This thread has been pushed WAY off-topic. (And I apologize for continuing that!) There are some in this forum who get very upset about OT stuff (just about as upset as several responders here seem to be regarding overly general questions, lack of prior research, etc etc etc...)
(2) Sadly, also OT: as implied above, I've found some responses here to be a bit -- shall we say?-- abrupt. If I were in Trainlover's shoes, I'd walk away and never come back. I might even drop the hobby because so many members here appear to be unsupportive. (And yes, I know a number of you have answered some of Trainlover's questions in other threads -- I've read those threads, too...)
(3) Directed to Trainlover12: Please excuse some of the grumpiness you've seen here. Please don't let it put you off. Please keep asking questions. Despite how it might sound, everyone here really does want you to succeed in your endeavors. That said: a few notes:
--- Please recheck your trackplan with an eye to access. If I'm reading it correctly, you've got some spots that will need about a 40" reach. That's a bit much, unless you're an orangutan.
--- As far as building benchwork, as has been said before, there's as many way to do it as there are people doing it. But you've got a couple of great resources to lean on: this forum, and your grandfather. Assuming he hasn't already, have him work with you on this from the ground up, from benchwork design to proper tool care and usage. (BTW: that last part is really important. Safety first! And that also means well-maintained tools, sharp blades, etc. When I was six or seven, my dad taught me to sharpen and tune saws, planes and chisels. I'm still using those same tools to build my benchwork, and I've never hurt myself with them.)
--- Finally, I'll invite you to check out my blog (http://s-t-rr.blogspot.com) It's not too extensive, but it'll show you what I'm doing. I'll post a few more pics in the next couple of days. Feel free to email me with any questions about what I'm doing for my benchwork.
Peter
fwright and ctvalleyrr you have both eloquently and correctly stated what I was attempting to state when I initially replied to this post. My hats off to both of you!!!!!!!!!!
They were well thought and well written.
train lover12 wrote: that is not wat i meant. i know how to build it wat i mean is that A)wat is the best way to make angled edges?B)how far apart should the struts that the 1/4" tabletop rests on be?C)wat are the best materials to use (opinions)?D)wat is the best way to make legs? (ive seen at least 3 different ways)
As others have said, you are way ahead of yourself. Since you have much of the track already, try laying it full size on the floor, and then measure to get the dimensions of the benchwork sections. Allow a few extra inches between the track and edge of the benchwork so the trains don't crash to the floor.
1/4" plywood by itself is not rigid enough for a table top. You either need to use 1/2" or 5/8" 5 ply plywood supported every 16" or so, or glue at least 1" thick extruded foam to the 1/4" plywood, and still support it every 18" or so.
There are no best materials and no best way to make legs, just like there is no one best track plan. Many materials and methods will work. The best material and methods are the ones that are easiest to use for the type of layout you are building, and that you are comfortable using.
Personally, I would not permit my 12 year old (and I have one) to start such an elaborate layout. There is too much risk - risk of your losing interest, high cost to complete, risk of being beyond my ability or resources to assist. I would insist on building a starter layout table (4x6, 4x8, 5x9, etc) where the risks of my child being overwhelmed are much lower.
The track plan would start out as the simple train set oval. We build the table together so that you learn simple wood-working skills, and how to use tools. You show me that you can lay the track and wire the controller so that the train runs flawlessly, and we will add a switch (turnout) and a spur.
Now build a structure kit, and paint it for an industry on the spur. Show me you know how to run at scale speeds, and can plan the moves to spot a car on the spur if the locomotive is facing the turnout with the train behind it. Show me you can check and fix the couplers to be at the same height, the trip pins don't hit the rails, and the wheels are in correct gauge. The turnout is "tweaked" so that trains can run forwards and backwards through both paths in both directions without any derailments. Add some scenery like a creek, a bridge, some more buildings, a hill, trees, grass, and shrubbery.
Next we add a passing track and a second spur, with the second spur facing opposite to the first. Wire for 2 train operation. Practice switching moves, with and without a second train on the tracks. Decide whether skewers or track magnets will be used for uncoupling. Add more scenery and buildings, and maybe some rock castings this time.
After all these skills have been demonstrated, and you are still interested, then we move to the dream layout. Chances are very good that you have learned a lot about what you want from model railroading, and will have a much better idea of what you want the dream layout to be. And you will have the skills to build it!
Much of model railroading is learning by doing. And that means making lots of mistakes, and finding out what works for you, and what doesn't. It's always nicer to make mistakes in a smaller effort so that the rework isn't so overwhelming.
Just a side thought - as others have pointed out, your reluctance to borrow or buy books on model railroading to read is going to cause you to make more mistakes than otherwise. The books show you with pictures and diagrams how to do things in detail that is very difficult to duplicate in forums like this.
model railroading is can be fun!
Fred W
Westcott's book has some really good diagrams and step by step instructions. It also has specifics on spacing, and things like that. Even with the flat top, L-girder bechwork can be useful, it is pretty easy, and the materials are cheap. I is also really useful in making the irregular shapes. You can use 1x2s and 1x3s (or 1x4s, depending on the design). They don't have to be great, they construction of the girder pulls out a lot of imperfections.
i have the track plan finalized and all i need to do is get some more track to finish it so wat next?
BTW about the benchwork i asked because id rather have all the info i need before i start than start, need to find about something, then have to wait for it and set myself back a few days.
Johnnny_reb wrote: concretelackey wrote: adt320 wrote: buy a book, search the internet ask questions on this forum after you have done the research!! It is amazing to me that a 12 yr old ask these simplistic questions and everyone responds.That opinion is fine BUT it amazes me that someone would be so close-minded about supplying some direction, REGARDLESS OF THE AGE OF THE ONE ASKING....He has been asking questions a "LOT" of questions. Please refer to the search engine on this forum to find all the questions he has asked. And a lot of people on this forum has been trying to help him. Myself included.hint search for the user "train lover12"
concretelackey wrote: adt320 wrote: buy a book, search the internet ask questions on this forum after you have done the research!! It is amazing to me that a 12 yr old ask these simplistic questions and everyone responds.That opinion is fine BUT it amazes me that someone would be so close-minded about supplying some direction, REGARDLESS OF THE AGE OF THE ONE ASKING....
adt320 wrote: buy a book, search the internet ask questions on this forum after you have done the research!! It is amazing to me that a 12 yr old ask these simplistic questions and everyone responds.
buy a book, search the internet ask questions on this forum after you have done the research!!
It is amazing to me that a 12 yr old ask these simplistic questions and everyone responds.
That opinion is fine BUT it amazes me that someone would be so close-minded about supplying some direction, REGARDLESS OF THE AGE OF THE ONE ASKING....
He has been asking questions a "LOT" of questions. Please refer to the search engine on this forum to find all the questions he has asked. And a lot of people on this forum has been trying to help him. Myself included.
hint search for the user "train lover12"
It's not the tons of questions that bothers me. I love people who ask questions! It's the not listening to answers that gripes me.
Trainlover, you're about 3 steps ahead of yourself here. You've gone from Step 1 to Step 4 and skipped over a couple in between. You're many hours of serious work away from being ready to start benchwork. What happens when you get benchwork all built and discover that you have to modify your track alignment because the building you want just doesn't fit, or the track pieces you have don't quite fit in that space? Lumber is expensive, and time is valuable. Don't waste either by rushing into things before you're ready.
You're also making the BAD assumption that there is only one way to skin a cat. There are probably a hundred different ways to do benchwork, and they all work. Some people will find different solutions more or less successful for their particular set of circumstances, but none of them are wrong.
As I tell my own kids: NEVER, EVER make the mistake of thinking adults are stupid. We're not. We notice lots of things -- we just don't always let you know that we're on to you. Take things one step at a time. People will help you. But if you're going to ask the question, take the time to read the answer. Those of us who read / post on some other threads know exactly how much quality time you've spent on that track plan, and how well tested it really is.
Now, this is some serious advice -- and if you won't take it, I'm going to sincerely regret all the help I've given you thus far. If you're asking these kinds of questions about benchwork, you need some adult supervision to get started. I shudder at the thought of my oldest son using power tools unsupervised, and I KNOW he's used them before under my supervision. If your grandfather built your house with his bare hands and some power tools, he knows what he's doing. Get him to help, and don't try it by yourself. Trust me, if he's built a house, benchwork will be child's play to him. You provide the muscle, let him provide the knowledge and supervision. BUT MAKE SURE YOU'RE REALLY READY BEFORE YOU WASTE HIS TIME.
Thus endeth the sermon.
I used Sievers Benchwork (http://www.sieversbenchwork.com/) on my layout. It goes together very easily and quickly.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
adt320 wrote: I think the close-minded comment is all wrong. When I decided to get in to this hobby, I spent a lot of time on the internet and actually spent time at my local library ( yes I have a card) and read alot so that when I had a question, it was generally one that was not covered by the above sources. I am all for helping those that help themselves. As to age, do not even go there!!I use this forum to see the different exchange of ideas, not " how do I build benchwork?" something that is covered in any basic Model Railroad book?It is my opinion so if you want to chastise me "Oh Well"
I think the close-minded comment is all wrong. When I decided to get in to this hobby, I spent a lot of time on the internet and actually spent time at my local library ( yes I have a card) and read alot so that when I had a question, it was generally one that was not covered by the above sources. I am all for helping those that help themselves. As to age, do not even go there!!
I use this forum to see the different exchange of ideas, not " how do I build benchwork?" something that is covered in any basic Model Railroad book?
It is my opinion so if you want to chastise me "Oh Well"
I agree with IRONROOSTER that the Westcott and Wilson books are excellent references on benchwork construction. Be sure you look at the 2nd. edition of the Westcott book. It has more current info. on benchwork. I personally like the "L" girder construction method because of its flexibilty and simplicity. You don't need to have absolutely square cuts to get it to work. If you have more questions about benchwork, come back to the forum and ask. There is no such thing as a dumb question. Learn from our experience and mistakes.
Bob
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concretelackey wrote: The answer depends on a few yet-to-be-known issues....your skills or the skill available to you,the tools available to you,the building materials either available or intended to be used,the elevation requirements of your design.The first 3 are self describing, the last one means if you designed a zero elevation change in track work/scenery you can essentially build it like a table. If track work/scenery has been designed with a healthy amount of vertical seperation then perhaps a cookie cutter still benchwork would be better.
The answer depends on a few yet-to-be-known issues....
your skills or the skill available to you,
the tools available to you,
the building materials either available or intended to be used,
the elevation requirements of your design.
The first 3 are self describing, the last one means if you designed a zero elevation change in track work/scenery you can essentially build it like a table. If track work/scenery has been designed with a healthy amount of vertical seperation then perhaps a cookie cutter still benchwork would be better.
i just need a flat table about 45" high and a frame of 1/2 plywood ripped into 3"x8' strips covered by 1/4" plywood for a flat tabletop