Hi --
Following Chip's post where he proposed a design contest for a H0 scale 2x8 LDE (Layout Design Element - part of a larger layout, based on a real life prototype) based on a small midwestern agricultural town in the 1950s, two of the forum regulars (ICRR1964 and steinjr) hereby present one such design: Thawville, IL.
The main givens Chip defined was (as we understood them):
Here is the layout plan we have come up with thus far (click on image to see max size):
Layout plan
Prototype information Here is a link to a web page describing the prototype location (right click on link and select "open in new window" to see this forum page and the presentation in two separate web browser windows on your screen):
http://home.online.no/~steinjr/trains/modelling/thawville/index.html
Discussion of design decisions: The main feature of Thawville, from a railroading modelling perspective, is that we have just one double ended siding, and not a very long siding at that (about 400 yards long in the prototype), shared between several businesses, with quite a few different types of RR cars being unloaded (or loaded) on that one siding.
The double ended siding could be used for runaround moves (if there is no cars being loaded or unloaded at the time). But we envision that it is more likely that it will not be used this way normally - instead the double ended siding probably will be treated more or less as two single ended sidings back to back - the southern (left) half switched by trains going south, and the northern (right) half switched by trains going north.
We envision that there normally would be cars spotted for no more than two or three out of the seven industries along the siding (feed, lumber, LCL, team spot, mill, coal, livestock).
The stuff we think is essensial to give "The Flavor of Thawville" (tm :-) is:
We added some extra stuff:
We are open to comments and suggestions on how to improve this LDE.
Interesting choices.
It makes a lot of difference what era you are modeling. I also wouldn't mind knowing what road name you are modeling.
Either way, I'm concerned about the freight platform/team area. Assuming we are talking about an era where trucks are used. The freight platform does not seen to allow access by trucks. Likewise, the "team area" does not have a loading dock. It's a riddle, no doubt, but I think you need to provide a way for trucks to load and off-load freight for transfer to and from the freight cars.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse wrote: Either way, I'm concerned about the freight platform/team area. Assuming we are talking about an era where trucks are used. The freight platform does not seen to allow access by trucks.
May not need it. In many cases the freight platform next to the main was for unloading LCL from a train on the main into the freight portion of the depot. A team could pull up along side the dock to unload. Remember it was built before automobiles.
Likewise, the "team area" does not have a loading dock.
It is very common NOT to have a dock at a team track.
but I think you need to provide a way for trucks to load and off-load freight for transfer to and from the freight cars.
You just back the wagon/truck up to the door of the rail car. If you look at old pictures of team tracks you will see that is very very common.
My concern is the location of the south elevator and stock yards. Are they far enough away from the siding and main track switches to allow a car to be spotted at the industry and not foul the main track or siding? I would be concerned that it looks too congested trying to fit so much in such a small space. I would be tempted to lose the feed storage and move the south elevator 3" to the right and every thing else 3" to the left and try to open it up a little. An alternative is to lose the feed storage and make the north elevator about half the size you've drawn to open things up. I would probably make the buildings along the rear only an inch or two thick at the most to open up the street and make sure I had depth to the foreground buildings. You want the downtown buildings fairly narrow and compressed, but away from that 1 block "downtown" things should open back up and have space between the buildings for that small town look.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
SpaceMouse wrote: Interesting choices. It makes a lot of difference what era you are modeling. I also wouldn't mind knowing what road name you are modeling.
Late 1940s/early 1950s.
IC = Illinois Central.
Either way, I'm concerned about the freight platform/team area. Assuming we are talking about an era where trucks are used. The freight platform does not seen to allow access by trucks.
Platform was used for LCL (Less than carload) freight - packages, essensially. Which were stored at the depot until picked up.
SpaceMouse wrote: Likewise, the "team area" does not have a loading dock. It's a riddle, no doubt, but I think you need to provide a way for trucks to load and off-load freight for transfer to and from the freight cars.
Likewise, the "team area" does not have a loading dock. It's a riddle, no doubt, but I think you need to provide a way for trucks to load and off-load freight for transfer to and from the freight cars.
Back the truck up to the side door of the freight car, lift stuff across. Pretty common procedure in the olden days. They used manpower, rather than forklifts to transfer loads.
Smile, Stein
dehusman wrote: My concern is the location of the south elevator and stock yards. Are they far enough away from the siding and main track switches to allow a car to be spotted at the industry and not foul the main track or siding?
My concern is the location of the south elevator and stock yards. Are they far enough away from the siding and main track switches to allow a car to be spotted at the industry and not foul the main track or siding?
Stock pen loading chute (is that the right word ?) is far enough away from the turnout to allow unloading from a center side door w/o fouling the main. South elevator isn't, though. Thanks for pointing that one out!
dehusman wrote: I would be concerned that it looks too congested trying to fit so much in such a small space. I would be tempted to lose the feed storage and move the south elevator 3" to the right and every thing else 3" to the left and try to open it up a little. An alternative is to lose the feed storage and make the north elevator about half the size you've drawn to open things up.
I would be concerned that it looks too congested trying to fit so much in such a small space. I would be tempted to lose the feed storage and move the south elevator 3" to the right and every thing else 3" to the left and try to open it up a little. An alternative is to lose the feed storage and make the north elevator about half the size you've drawn to open things up.
I see your point. Maybe something like this (dumping the lumber shed, moving the south elevator and feed storage right, downsizing the north elevator to open up a bit):
dehusman wrote: I would probably make the buildings along the rear only an inch or two thick at the most to open up the street and make sure I had depth to the foreground buildings.
I would probably make the buildings along the rear only an inch or two thick at the most to open up the street and make sure I had depth to the foreground buildings.
I have them at 1.5" (behind north elevator) and 3" depth (downtown) now. Could obviously shave off a little more if I get too pressed for depth.
dehusman wrote: You want the downtown buildings fairly narrow and compressed, but away from that 1 block "downtown" things should open back up and have space between the buildings for that small town look.
You want the downtown buildings fairly narrow and compressed, but away from that 1 block "downtown" things should open back up and have space between the buildings for that small town look.
How about if I open it up a little between the Clayton warehouse and the downtown area ?
steinjr wrote: I see your point. Maybe something like this (dumping the lumber shed, moving the south elevator and feed storage right, downsizing the north elevator to open up a bit):
I thought about that but I was trying to keep the lumber shed to vary the cars and commodities inbound. Maybe keep the lumber shed, turn it 90 degr, but they use the team track to recieve cars. You could also move the shed to another location and park a flatbed with the lumber company name on it at the team track, or maybe a truck with an A frame winch to unload bundles of lumber.
I like your LDE plan. The simple track plan leaves lots of room for scenery yet offers a good amount of operation. It replicates the "small town feel" where the typical track arrangement is a double-ended spur to serve the local industries and which most modelers incorrectly identify as a passing siding.
To me, the quintessential small-town track arrangement was like that at Danville, California, on Southern Pacific's San Ramon Branch (milepost 54.6). There were two double-ended sidings: one on each side of the branch's "mainline." One was the house track 1807 feet long serving the combination depot and the corral (stock pen and chute). The other was 1567 feet long and served two warehouses and an unidentified industry. North of these tracks was a single-ended spur 811 feet long serving more warehouses. As of the track plan's 1912 date, Danville was a small agricultural village. Now the community is suburban yuppyville, and the railroad is long gone.
Mark
SpaceMouse wrote:Let me ask the question this way. I ordered a piano. It came into the freight station and is waiting to be picked up. How do I get that piano into my flatbed truck?
Are you kidding? In case you're not.... You and several friends would slide it from the platorm to the flatbed. The closer those are in height, the easier the task. The hard part will be getting the piano from the truck to the inside of your house. Using a dolly would make this whole process easier. Easier yet would be to hire a professional to do the job while you sip lemonade.
Cox 47 wrote:Maybe you should add a retail outlet for coal...Most folks here in Illinois at that time used coal for heating and cooking....The coal yard was pretty important and busy...would do a lot of switching...Cox 47
That would be the coal yard that is between the north elevator and the stockyard. Its already there.
markpierce wrote: SpaceMouse wrote:Let me ask the question this way. I ordered a piano. It came into the freight station and is waiting to be picked up. How do I get that piano into my flatbed truck?Are you kidding? In case you're not.... You and several friends would slide it from the platorm to the flatbed. The closer those are in height, the easier the task. The hard part will be getting the piano from the truck to the inside of your house. Using a dolly would make this whole process easier. Easier yet would be to hire a professional to do the job while you sip lemonade.Mark
Maybe I'm just being stupid, but it doesn't look like there's enough room to get truck in there, with the passenger station the way it is, etc. At any rate, the road is not shown.
SpaceMouse wrote: markpierce wrote: SpaceMouse wrote:Let me ask the question this way. I ordered a piano. It came into the freight station and is waiting to be picked up. How do I get that piano into my flatbed truck?Are you kidding? In case you're not.... You and several friends would slide it from the platorm to the flatbed. The closer those are in height, the easier the task. The hard part will be getting the piano from the truck to the inside of your house. Using a dolly would make this whole process easier. Easier yet would be to hire a professional to do the job while you sip lemonade.MarkMaybe I'm just being stupid, but it doesn't look like there's enough room to get truck in there, with the passenger station the way it is, etc. At any rate, the road is not shown.
I had assumed that the ground level was at the height of the rails for the siding (a common practice) and that one would cross from the team track area to the freight platform. There is plenty of room on the west (left) side to park the flatbed truck there if anyone objected to your blocking the siding track.
Space Mouse,
That was a really good question you had about the piano. Most of the farmers in the local area had grain trucks with wood sides, these were used to haul grain in the fall and the sides were taken off in the summer for straw and hay hauling. We did not hire for a professional delivery in this small town years ago so to speak. The word professional does not come into play as to speak. You went to the local cafe, or tavern and asked some good strong men for help. Remember this was a town of 200 to 250, that included children. So that ment everyone new everyone. In 1969 there was a local farmer who took ill, 7 other farmers took his crop out using there own machines, and charged nothing. I heard stories of the only doctor in town that got paid so to speak in ahhh chickens and repairs done on his home. LOL!
Mark, the issue isn't mission critical but if it were,
I'd say that you were a "seeing the track empty" kind of guy and I'm a "seeing the track full" kind of guy. Just kidding of course, but if there were a couple empty hoppers at the South Tower and a boxcar for either the feed mill or the lumber shed, then a delivery to the team track would block access to the freight dock until the next day's train.
But as they used to say in construction...."can't see it from my house."
dehusman wrote: steinjr wrote: I see your point. Maybe something like this (dumping the lumber shed, moving the south elevator and feed storage right, downsizing the north elevator to open up a bit): I thought about that but I was trying to keep the lumber shed to vary the cars and commodities inbound. Maybe keep the lumber shed, turn it 90 degr, but they use the team track to recieve cars. You could also move the shed to another location and park a flatbed with the lumber company name on it at the team track, or maybe a truck with an A frame winch to unload bundles of lumber.Dave H.
Moving the tracks an inch or so closer to the bottom (front) edge would provide more separation between the railroad/industries and the business district.
SpaceMouse wrote: Mark, the issue isn't mission critical but if it were,I'd say that you were a "seeing the track empty" kind of guy and I'm a "seeing the track full" kind of guy. Just kidding of course, but if there were a couple empty hoppers at the South Tower and a boxcar for either the feed mill or the lumber shed, then a delivery to the team track would block access to the freight dock until the next day's train. But as they used to say in construction...."can't see it from my house."
A railroad wouldn't leave cars blocking access to the station platform for long. It would put the extra cars elsewhere for later delivery when there would be more room. In the "real world," these small-town sidings were a lot more empty than full. The exception was when there were extra cars that had to be parked somewhere until needed or disposed of (such as when cars were gathered in preparation for harvest). Even then, space would be left for needed access.
SpaceMouse wrote: I'd say that you were a "seeing the track empty" kind of guy and I'm a "seeing the track full" kind of guy. Just kidding of course, but if there were a couple empty hoppers at the South Tower and a boxcar for either the feed mill or the lumber shed, then a delivery to the team track would block access to the freight dock until the next day's train.
Lets think about this. The freight dock is along a main line. NOT a siding. You aren't going to be unloading a piano out of a baggage/express car in a train that has a schedule on an busy mainline onto an OPEN loading dock where it may have to sit for hours or until the next day to be picked up anyway. If its coming in a boxcar they will spot it AT the team track and unload it there. The freight dock is for loading/unloading LCL parcels that they can handle with a dolly in 10-15 minutes and move into the freight house portion of the station for cover/security.
Guys, The only concern I see has to do with the turnout at the start of the passing siding. Perhaps a different frog angle branching to the right to avoid the bit of "S" curve. Me, personally, I'd keep the lumber yard and lose one of the elevators -- but hey, it's your town and if they had 2 elevators, so be it.
Having unloaded a few box cars on team tracks, never had a loading dock. Strong back, weak mind. Used pickups, trailers, flatbeds, 18 wheelers.
By the way, the ground between the tracks is usually level with the top of the rail and each time a car is spotted it cuts new flangeways in the dirt.
Just some observations John T.
jawnt wrote: Me, personally, I'd keep the lumber yard and lose one of the elevators -- but hey, it's your town and if they had 2 elevators, so be it.
I thought about that one also, but since elevators were were pretty significant structures I thought it might change the character too much. If I were to lose one I would jettison the north one, since its "hiding" behind the water tower, another tall structure.
Dave and Mark,
I know you have experience with this stuff while what I have to work with is conjecture, so I'll just plain ask. When the train makes an LCL delivery, does it take the time to wait while the parcels are being unloaded then move the car to the team track to drop off the piano.
Can I assume that it will always be a local that delivers the LCL freight?
SpaceMouse wrote: Dave and Mark,I know you have experience with this stuff while what I have to work with is conjecture, so I'll just plain ask. When the train makes an LCL delivery, does it take the time to wait while the parcels are being unloaded then move the car to the team track to drop off the piano. Can I assume that it will always be a local that delivers the LCL freight?
Okay, since this piano unloading apparently is very important to you - this is what I would have done if I was the agent at the depot, and a piano showed up to be unloaded:
Alternative 1: Unload piano from mainline at platform on depot, send train on it's way. Then either have recipient back his flatbed truck across the siding up to back side of depot platform to make it shorter to carry, or get a number of strong men to carry it across the siding.
People built the pyramids by hand power. People carry pianos into and out of tall city buildings. A group of strong men can carry a piano 30-50 feet across reasonably flat and level track, if need be. But I have added a gray background across the siding to the backside of the platform to signal "reasonably level ground".
Alternative 2: Have the engineer and conductor of the train halt the train with the car holding the piano at the crossing with main street and unload the piano directly into a flatbed truck on main street.
Probably wouldn't take much longer to unload the blessed piano here than it would take to unload it at the platform by the depot, and you would probably block main street anyways when you have a train at the depot - this is a rural town of 2-300 people, not a busy street in a big city.
Alternative 3: If you have the time and space, have the car containing the piano spotted at team track spot, send train on it's way, leave car there until farmer shows up to get his piano, unload directly into flatbed truck.
Alterative 4: Have them unload the piano at Roberts up the line, which was a bigger station, probably with a real freight house instead of just a place in the corner of the depot. Tell farmer to go to Roberts to get his piano.
I am sure a reasonably intelligent agent would have been able to come up with a plan for how to handle a piano, without the RR having to redesign their entire station area.
But anyways - here is a changed plan - I have now explicitly marked in a dirt track across the flat level track of the siding behind the depot/platform, so you can back a flatbed truck up to the rear side of the platform at the depot.
Red flatbed trucks represent "Chip's Piano Moving Service"
Grin, Stein
markpierce wrote: dehusman wrote: steinjr wrote: I see your point. Maybe something like this (dumping the lumber shed, moving the south elevator and feed storage right, downsizing the north elevator to open up a bit): I thought about that but I was trying to keep the lumber shed to vary the cars and commodities inbound. Maybe keep the lumber shed, turn it 90 degr, but they use the team track to recieve cars. You could also move the shed to another location and park a flatbed with the lumber company name on it at the team track, or maybe a truck with an A frame winch to unload bundles of lumber.Dave H.Moving the tracks an inch or so closer to the bottom (front) edge would provide more separation between the railroad/industries and the business district.Mark
You both make good points here. Btw - don't know if anyone looked at the prototype photos from the page I linked to, but this is what this area looked like:
South Elevator is just behind the person taking the picture (or picture is probably taken from South Elevator).
Map showing southern part of siding:
Map showing northern part of siding:
I could model the whole place (about 400 yards of it) reasonably accurate in about 14 feet in H0:
Northern part of siding:
Southern part of siding:
But I am trying to selectively compress the scene into an 2x8 LDE.
I have also considered not modelling the South elevator - just go something like this:
What say ye ?
Express shipments would normally be made when a mixed, passenger or express/mail train made a short stop at the depot (using normally a combine [baggage/coach or baggage/RPO] or baggage car). Such shipments would not be large or bulky (not much beyond the size of a casket). LCL shipments would normally be in a box car which would be parked at the "house track" adjacent to the depot. A piano, if it was to be delivered at the modeled town, would be from an lcl box car carrying a periodic shipment to the town which combined other goods to make better use of the car's capacity. Since the car would contain shipments for multiple recipients, it would be parked near the depot so the items could be offloaded, protected, and released to the proper recipient. For a town of this size, the lcl shipment would nornally be delivered by a "local." Hope that helps. (Sure wish I could have had a conversation about this with my maternal grandfather who was a station agent in Dayton, Pennsylvania on the B&O, but he passed away before I was six.)
steinjr wrote: markpierce wrote: dehusman wrote: steinjr wrote: I see your point. Maybe something like this (dumping the lumber shed, moving the south elevator and feed storage right, downsizing the north elevator to open up a bit): I thought about that but I was trying to keep the lumber shed to vary the cars and commodities inbound. Maybe keep the lumber shed, turn it 90 degr, but they use the team track to recieve cars. You could also move the shed to another location and park a flatbed with the lumber company name on it at the team track, or maybe a truck with an A frame winch to unload bundles of lumber.Dave H.Moving the tracks an inch or so closer to the bottom (front) edge would provide more separation between the railroad/industries and the business district.Mark You both make good points here. Btw - don't know if anyone looked at the prototype photos from the page I linked to, but this is what this area looked like: South Elevator is just behind the person taking the picture (or picture is probably taken from South Elevator). Map showing southern part of siding: Map showing northern part of siding: I could model the whole place (about 400 yards of it) reasonably accurate in about 14 feet in H0: Northern part of siding: Southern part of siding: But I am trying to selectively compress the scene into an 2x8 LDE. I have also considered not modelling the South elevator - just go something like this: What say ye ? Smile, Stein
Simpler is better.
The plan looks better, but how do you feel with the South Tower cut out?
You've worked with this longer than we have, would it make more sense to cut the feed storage?
SpaceMouse wrote: The plan looks better, but how do you feel with the South Tower cut out?You've worked with this longer than we have, would it make more sense to cut the feed storage?
Well, if you look at the prototype, it looks like this (2x14 foot layout plan):
To me, the south elevator is not a critical element in preserving the main look and feel of the prototype. Probably because I have only seen the town from the south towards the north.
Jeff (ICRR) - you know the town better - what do you say ?
You may find it interesting how the Southern Pacific classified its freight stations.
A - Freight in any quantity, carloads or less.
B - Freight in carload lots only
C - Freight in carloads lots or in quantitities not exceeding 5,000 lbs. No piece to be larger than two men can handle.
D - Freight in lots not exceeding 5,000. No piece to be larger than two men can handle.
E - Freight will not be handled.
I don't have the classification for the Danville station I mentioned previously, but the similar nearby town of Walnut Creek the freight station was class A. as was typical of a large majority of SP's freight stations.
SpaceMouse wrote: I know you have experience with this stuff while what I have to work with is conjecture, so I'll just plain ask. When the train makes an LCL delivery, does it take the time to wait while the parcels are being unloaded then move the car to the team track to drop off the piano.
Two different products here.
Freight dock think UPS. Anything you would ship today by UPS would travel by rail to the freight dock. Anything too heavy or big to ship UPS today would go by LTL truck, which would be the same as going to the team track on the model.
Any car unloaded at the freight dock is only there 15-20 minutes and stays IN the train.
And before it gets more confused NO it won't be UPS doing the shipping. If anything it would be Railway Express Agency.