SpaceMouse wrote:Let me ask the question this way. I ordered a piano. It came into the freight station and is waiting to be picked up. How do I get that piano into my flatbed truck?
A lot of big ol' plowboys?
We Illinois boys grow up strong. And if we don't, we know some that did!
Hope you brought a big flatbed Mouse!
BTW, we ain't guaranteeing it will still be in tune! Heck, it might not even have all it's legs. But a little glue will fix that.
Rotor
Jake: How often does the train go by? Elwood: So often you won't even notice ...
SpaceMouse wrote: Every time I see that 30" diameter operator I think of the president of the club I used to belong to. There was just no getting around that boy until he backed into a siding.
Every time I see that 30" diameter operator I think of the president of the club I used to belong to. There was just no getting around that boy until he backed into a siding.
LOL. Guess I am planning for future expansion - you actually cannot see it in the figure, but there is an area about 2 feet long that it is only 24" wide at the narrowest point - where the tool area is. There is room for two people to pass each other otherwise.
SpaceMouse wrote: I have a question. Why doesn't the cassette extend to the wall?
I have a question. Why doesn't the cassette extend to the wall?
Mostly because the bench under the layout is 24" deep. So a 24" (or shorter) cassette can be stored across the top of the bench under the shelf - ie with the opening of the cassette in towards the wall and out towards the room.
That way I can fit a _lot_ of pre-loaded cassettes under the layout, yet at the same time reach all of them easily. Longer cassettes would have to be stored sideways under the layout.
No matter how long I make the cassette for this part of the layout, I would need either two or three cassette loads of cars to create an full inbound train of 12 cars on the layout when setting up a session - it makes very little difference to me to use three cassettes instead of two.
But if experience shows that it doesn't work, I'll change it and do something else instead.
Grin, Stein
dehusman wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: I know you have experience with this stuff while what I have to work with is conjecture, so I'll just plain ask. When the train makes an LCL delivery, does it take the time to wait while the parcels are being unloaded then move the car to the team track to drop off the piano. Two different products here.Freight dock think UPS. Anything you would ship today by UPS would travel by rail to the freight dock. Anything too heavy or big to ship UPS today would go by LTL truck, which would be the same as going to the team track on the model. Any car unloaded at the freight dock is only there 15-20 minutes and stays IN the train.And before it gets more confused NO it won't be UPS doing the shipping. If anything it would be Railway Express Agency.Dave H.
SpaceMouse wrote: I know you have experience with this stuff while what I have to work with is conjecture, so I'll just plain ask. When the train makes an LCL delivery, does it take the time to wait while the parcels are being unloaded then move the car to the team track to drop off the piano.
Two different products here.
Freight dock think UPS. Anything you would ship today by UPS would travel by rail to the freight dock. Anything too heavy or big to ship UPS today would go by LTL truck, which would be the same as going to the team track on the model.
Any car unloaded at the freight dock is only there 15-20 minutes and stays IN the train.
And before it gets more confused NO it won't be UPS doing the shipping. If anything it would be Railway Express Agency.
Dave H.
The Old Dog must question that statement. The Old Hound would picture UPS as being similiar to REA (Railway Express), that is handling express packages. Express would be usually handled by passenger trains in baggage cars. It would normally be handled by baggage carts at the low passenger platform during a station stop.
The LCL freight would be handled at the freight platform. The way freight would include a "trap" car to handle the LCL freight. It would be positioned at the high freight platform while the way freight did other work at the station.
The Team Track would be used for Car Load freight for shippers and consignees who did not have their own private siding or spur.
Have fun
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
orsonroy wrote: Hi Stein, Is this a design exercise, or the plan for a real set of modules? If it's the latter, scrap Thawville and model Roberts: for about the same amount of space you get twice the switching and three times the number of sidings. That translates into more realistic switching of the scene, sinc eyou won't have to break your train as often to move cars into their appropriate spot locations
Hi Stein,
Is this a design exercise, or the plan for a real set of modules? If it's the latter, scrap Thawville and model Roberts: for about the same amount of space you get twice the switching and three times the number of sidings. That translates into more realistic switching of the scene, sinc eyou won't have to break your train as often to move cars into their appropriate spot locations
Design exercise. I am not planning to build it. I agree that Roberts would make a more interesting place to actually model.
Or this place:
More info on the prototype this design is based on at:
http://home.online.no/~steinjr/trains/modelling/fergus/
That one is also a 2x8 design exercise - I am not planning to build that one either.
The one I am actually building is this one:
orsonroy wrote: (notice that you're BARELY meeting one of the contest design parameters, namely being able to work the siding from on the modules themselves: this branch never saw an SW, so you'd need to appropriately work it with either a 2100-series Mike (BIG!) or a Geep, both of which take up far more space than that dinky diesel switcher.
(notice that you're BARELY meeting one of the contest design parameters, namely being able to work the siding from on the modules themselves: this branch never saw an SW, so you'd need to appropriately work it with either a 2100-series Mike (BIG!) or a Geep, both of which take up far more space than that dinky diesel switcher.
I know. It was designed to just barely squeak within the rules - it can be operated, but not necessarily with prototypically engines. But I rationalized than in a real life operation, where it was just part of a bigger layout, there very likely would have been a few feet extra available on either side of the LDE for _realistic_ operations.
Smile, Stein
Is this a design exercise, or the plan for a real set of modules? If it's the latter, scrap Thawville and model Roberts: for about the same amount of space you get twice the switching and three times the number of sidings. That translates into more realistic switching of the scene, sinc eyou won't have to break your train as often to move cars into their appropriate spot locations (notice that you're BARELY meeting one of the contest design parameters, namely being able to work the siding from on the modules themselves: this branch never saw an SW, so you'd need to appropriately work it with either a 2100-series Mike (BIG!) or a Geep, both of which take up far more space than that dinky diesel switcher.
(By the way: I'm modeling 20 miles down the line: the upper deck of my layout will be dominated by the Central Soya plant in Gibson City)
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
Mark & Dave,
The Mouse has a valid point to consider here, so do you you 2 guys also. The picture that Stein has shown are what was there, drawing are scans from old documents that I have from years ago from a book that my grandma wrote with here class of 1933. I spent my childhood and later years in and around this town and like I said everyone knew each other. As some stated, trains had a a curtain amount of time they could stop at each town and needed to be on their way. I called my dad this morning early and he told me that most of the freight that was unloaded in Thawville at that time was small and was handled buy no more than 4 men, and they had a curtain amount of time to unload it. I asked him about a possible piano being unloaded, he told me maybe it could be done, but it would more than typically be unloaded in Gilman, because they could handle it better their do to unloading docks and proper help and tools to move it. This was in the late 1940's. It then would fall under the responsability of the store to contact the person who bought the piano to pick it up or help them get it to there home from Gilman.
Here is good example my father told me this morning on the phone this morning. Back in the late 1940s a corn sheller came in on a short flat car, Gilman refused to unload it I guess. The Depot agent was informed of this and sent a young boy to alert the people in the town to see what could be done. Oh by the way the young boy was my dad, the station agent hired boys in Thawville for messengers, cleaning, and running general arrends at the time. A corn sheller was pulled behind a powered tractor and transported to crib sites for shelling corn, a truck, small grain truck that is, was used to haul the corn drag's, as many as 10 to 12 drags at times, these were heavy also. So I would imagine the drag's came with the corn sheller also. Dad said the train engineer gave them 10 minutes to unload the object from the flat car, refusing to pull into or dropping the car into the siding. From what My dad said it did get done in less than 10 minutes with a gang of men and 3 flat bed grain trucks, this included the drags also. I have no clue as to how they did it, but my father said there were over 30 men there helping. And here is a funny for everyone, the engineer and his crew were yelling at everyone to hurry up and never helped in any manner. So the young boys were throwing cinders at the loco, and no one tried to stop them from the town.
My dad told me by the late 1940's that train shipments had started to fade somewhat, do to the trucking industry starting to take off. As for having 2 elevators at the time, the south one was the newer on, the north unit is the original one. I told Stein that they were both used until the 1950's, then the north unit was left due to being out of date and left to rot. some of the smaller buildings were moved to the south site and the old elevator demolished in later years along with the water tower for steamers, this happened in the mid to late 1950's when they were demolished. Up until just 10 years ago the foundation for the elevator and the concrete footings for the water tower were still there, The RR removed them along with the siding.
You have to also remember and I tried to point this out earlier, the town was just 200 to 250 people at the time, and everyone knew everyone. Most of the local worked close to home for the local farmers, RR, business district, and Grain CO.
Stein did some nice drawings and did show me the long veiw so to speak of the layout of the town, but we needed more length to capture this which would not work as far as the rules Spacemouse put up. So we compressed it some to make things just as real but still functional. We had to make some changes, so this is what we did. And trust me, I was trying to get it all in the 2' by 8' area, and it just could not work.
We are willing to see or here what your comments are, so erase or add what you think should be there. And remeber guys all small towns are not created equal.
ICRR1964
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
You may find it interesting how the Southern Pacific classified its freight stations.
A - Freight in any quantity, carloads or less.
B - Freight in carload lots only
C - Freight in carloads lots or in quantitities not exceeding 5,000 lbs. No piece to be larger than two men can handle.
D - Freight in lots not exceeding 5,000. No piece to be larger than two men can handle.
E - Freight will not be handled.
I don't have the classification for the Danville station I mentioned previously, but the similar nearby town of Walnut Creek the freight station was class A. as was typical of a large majority of SP's freight stations.
SpaceMouse wrote: The plan looks better, but how do you feel with the South Tower cut out?You've worked with this longer than we have, would it make more sense to cut the feed storage?
The plan looks better, but how do you feel with the South Tower cut out?
You've worked with this longer than we have, would it make more sense to cut the feed storage?
Well, if you look at the prototype, it looks like this (2x14 foot layout plan):
To me, the south elevator is not a critical element in preserving the main look and feel of the prototype. Probably because I have only seen the town from the south towards the north.
Jeff (ICRR) - you know the town better - what do you say ?
steinjr wrote: markpierce wrote: dehusman wrote: steinjr wrote: I see your point. Maybe something like this (dumping the lumber shed, moving the south elevator and feed storage right, downsizing the north elevator to open up a bit): I thought about that but I was trying to keep the lumber shed to vary the cars and commodities inbound. Maybe keep the lumber shed, turn it 90 degr, but they use the team track to recieve cars. You could also move the shed to another location and park a flatbed with the lumber company name on it at the team track, or maybe a truck with an A frame winch to unload bundles of lumber.Dave H.Moving the tracks an inch or so closer to the bottom (front) edge would provide more separation between the railroad/industries and the business district.Mark You both make good points here. Btw - don't know if anyone looked at the prototype photos from the page I linked to, but this is what this area looked like: South Elevator is just behind the person taking the picture (or picture is probably taken from South Elevator). Map showing southern part of siding: Map showing northern part of siding: I could model the whole place (about 400 yards of it) reasonably accurate in about 14 feet in H0: Northern part of siding: Southern part of siding: But I am trying to selectively compress the scene into an 2x8 LDE. I have also considered not modelling the South elevator - just go something like this: What say ye ? Smile, Stein
markpierce wrote: dehusman wrote: steinjr wrote: I see your point. Maybe something like this (dumping the lumber shed, moving the south elevator and feed storage right, downsizing the north elevator to open up a bit): I thought about that but I was trying to keep the lumber shed to vary the cars and commodities inbound. Maybe keep the lumber shed, turn it 90 degr, but they use the team track to recieve cars. You could also move the shed to another location and park a flatbed with the lumber company name on it at the team track, or maybe a truck with an A frame winch to unload bundles of lumber.Dave H.Moving the tracks an inch or so closer to the bottom (front) edge would provide more separation between the railroad/industries and the business district.Mark
dehusman wrote: steinjr wrote: I see your point. Maybe something like this (dumping the lumber shed, moving the south elevator and feed storage right, downsizing the north elevator to open up a bit): I thought about that but I was trying to keep the lumber shed to vary the cars and commodities inbound. Maybe keep the lumber shed, turn it 90 degr, but they use the team track to recieve cars. You could also move the shed to another location and park a flatbed with the lumber company name on it at the team track, or maybe a truck with an A frame winch to unload bundles of lumber.Dave H.
steinjr wrote: I see your point. Maybe something like this (dumping the lumber shed, moving the south elevator and feed storage right, downsizing the north elevator to open up a bit):
I thought about that but I was trying to keep the lumber shed to vary the cars and commodities inbound. Maybe keep the lumber shed, turn it 90 degr, but they use the team track to recieve cars. You could also move the shed to another location and park a flatbed with the lumber company name on it at the team track, or maybe a truck with an A frame winch to unload bundles of lumber.
Moving the tracks an inch or so closer to the bottom (front) edge would provide more separation between the railroad/industries and the business district.
Mark
You both make good points here. Btw - don't know if anyone looked at the prototype photos from the page I linked to, but this is what this area looked like:
South Elevator is just behind the person taking the picture (or picture is probably taken from South Elevator).
Map showing southern part of siding:
Map showing northern part of siding:
I could model the whole place (about 400 yards of it) reasonably accurate in about 14 feet in H0:
Northern part of siding:
Southern part of siding:
But I am trying to selectively compress the scene into an 2x8 LDE.
I have also considered not modelling the South elevator - just go something like this:
What say ye ?
Simpler is better.
SpaceMouse wrote: Dave and Mark,I know you have experience with this stuff while what I have to work with is conjecture, so I'll just plain ask. When the train makes an LCL delivery, does it take the time to wait while the parcels are being unloaded then move the car to the team track to drop off the piano. Can I assume that it will always be a local that delivers the LCL freight?
Dave and Mark,
I know you have experience with this stuff while what I have to work with is conjecture, so I'll just plain ask. When the train makes an LCL delivery, does it take the time to wait while the parcels are being unloaded then move the car to the team track to drop off the piano.
Can I assume that it will always be a local that delivers the LCL freight?
Express shipments would normally be made when a mixed, passenger or express/mail train made a short stop at the depot (using normally a combine [baggage/coach or baggage/RPO] or baggage car). Such shipments would not be large or bulky (not much beyond the size of a casket). LCL shipments would normally be in a box car which would be parked at the "house track" adjacent to the depot. A piano, if it was to be delivered at the modeled town, would be from an lcl box car carrying a periodic shipment to the town which combined other goods to make better use of the car's capacity. Since the car would contain shipments for multiple recipients, it would be parked near the depot so the items could be offloaded, protected, and released to the proper recipient. For a town of this size, the lcl shipment would nornally be delivered by a "local." Hope that helps. (Sure wish I could have had a conversation about this with my maternal grandfather who was a station agent in Dayton, Pennsylvania on the B&O, but he passed away before I was six.)
Okay, since this piano unloading apparently is very important to you - this is what I would have done if I was the agent at the depot, and a piano showed up to be unloaded:
Alternative 1: Unload piano from mainline at platform on depot, send train on it's way. Then either have recipient back his flatbed truck across the siding up to back side of depot platform to make it shorter to carry, or get a number of strong men to carry it across the siding.
People built the pyramids by hand power. People carry pianos into and out of tall city buildings. A group of strong men can carry a piano 30-50 feet across reasonably flat and level track, if need be. But I have added a gray background across the siding to the backside of the platform to signal "reasonably level ground".
Alternative 2: Have the engineer and conductor of the train halt the train with the car holding the piano at the crossing with main street and unload the piano directly into a flatbed truck on main street.
Probably wouldn't take much longer to unload the blessed piano here than it would take to unload it at the platform by the depot, and you would probably block main street anyways when you have a train at the depot - this is a rural town of 2-300 people, not a busy street in a big city.
Alternative 3: If you have the time and space, have the car containing the piano spotted at team track spot, send train on it's way, leave car there until farmer shows up to get his piano, unload directly into flatbed truck.
Alterative 4: Have them unload the piano at Roberts up the line, which was a bigger station, probably with a real freight house instead of just a place in the corner of the depot. Tell farmer to go to Roberts to get his piano.
I am sure a reasonably intelligent agent would have been able to come up with a plan for how to handle a piano, without the RR having to redesign their entire station area.
But anyways - here is a changed plan - I have now explicitly marked in a dirt track across the flat level track of the siding behind the depot/platform, so you can back a flatbed truck up to the rear side of the platform at the depot.
Red flatbed trucks represent "Chip's Piano Moving Service"
jawnt wrote: Me, personally, I'd keep the lumber yard and lose one of the elevators -- but hey, it's your town and if they had 2 elevators, so be it.
I thought about that one also, but since elevators were were pretty significant structures I thought it might change the character too much. If I were to lose one I would jettison the north one, since its "hiding" behind the water tower, another tall structure.
Guys, The only concern I see has to do with the turnout at the start of the passing siding. Perhaps a different frog angle branching to the right to avoid the bit of "S" curve. Me, personally, I'd keep the lumber yard and lose one of the elevators -- but hey, it's your town and if they had 2 elevators, so be it.
Having unloaded a few box cars on team tracks, never had a loading dock. Strong back, weak mind. Used pickups, trailers, flatbeds, 18 wheelers.
By the way, the ground between the tracks is usually level with the top of the rail and each time a car is spotted it cuts new flangeways in the dirt.
Just some observations John T.
SpaceMouse wrote: I'd say that you were a "seeing the track empty" kind of guy and I'm a "seeing the track full" kind of guy. Just kidding of course, but if there were a couple empty hoppers at the South Tower and a boxcar for either the feed mill or the lumber shed, then a delivery to the team track would block access to the freight dock until the next day's train.
Lets think about this. The freight dock is along a main line. NOT a siding. You aren't going to be unloading a piano out of a baggage/express car in a train that has a schedule on an busy mainline onto an OPEN loading dock where it may have to sit for hours or until the next day to be picked up anyway. If its coming in a boxcar they will spot it AT the team track and unload it there. The freight dock is for loading/unloading LCL parcels that they can handle with a dolly in 10-15 minutes and move into the freight house portion of the station for cover/security.
SpaceMouse wrote: Mark, the issue isn't mission critical but if it were,I'd say that you were a "seeing the track empty" kind of guy and I'm a "seeing the track full" kind of guy. Just kidding of course, but if there were a couple empty hoppers at the South Tower and a boxcar for either the feed mill or the lumber shed, then a delivery to the team track would block access to the freight dock until the next day's train. But as they used to say in construction...."can't see it from my house."
Mark, the issue isn't mission critical but if it were,
I'd say that you were a "seeing the track empty" kind of guy and I'm a "seeing the track full" kind of guy. Just kidding of course, but if there were a couple empty hoppers at the South Tower and a boxcar for either the feed mill or the lumber shed, then a delivery to the team track would block access to the freight dock until the next day's train.
But as they used to say in construction...."can't see it from my house."
A railroad wouldn't leave cars blocking access to the station platform for long. It would put the extra cars elsewhere for later delivery when there would be more room. In the "real world," these small-town sidings were a lot more empty than full. The exception was when there were extra cars that had to be parked somewhere until needed or disposed of (such as when cars were gathered in preparation for harvest). Even then, space would be left for needed access.
Space Mouse,
That was a really good question you had about the piano. Most of the farmers in the local area had grain trucks with wood sides, these were used to haul grain in the fall and the sides were taken off in the summer for straw and hay hauling. We did not hire for a professional delivery in this small town years ago so to speak. The word professional does not come into play as to speak. You went to the local cafe, or tavern and asked some good strong men for help. Remember this was a town of 200 to 250, that included children. So that ment everyone new everyone. In 1969 there was a local farmer who took ill, 7 other farmers took his crop out using there own machines, and charged nothing. I heard stories of the only doctor in town that got paid so to speak in ahhh chickens and repairs done on his home. LOL!
SpaceMouse wrote: markpierce wrote: SpaceMouse wrote:Let me ask the question this way. I ordered a piano. It came into the freight station and is waiting to be picked up. How do I get that piano into my flatbed truck?Are you kidding? In case you're not.... You and several friends would slide it from the platorm to the flatbed. The closer those are in height, the easier the task. The hard part will be getting the piano from the truck to the inside of your house. Using a dolly would make this whole process easier. Easier yet would be to hire a professional to do the job while you sip lemonade.MarkMaybe I'm just being stupid, but it doesn't look like there's enough room to get truck in there, with the passenger station the way it is, etc. At any rate, the road is not shown.
markpierce wrote: SpaceMouse wrote:Let me ask the question this way. I ordered a piano. It came into the freight station and is waiting to be picked up. How do I get that piano into my flatbed truck?Are you kidding? In case you're not.... You and several friends would slide it from the platorm to the flatbed. The closer those are in height, the easier the task. The hard part will be getting the piano from the truck to the inside of your house. Using a dolly would make this whole process easier. Easier yet would be to hire a professional to do the job while you sip lemonade.Mark
Are you kidding? In case you're not.... You and several friends would slide it from the platorm to the flatbed. The closer those are in height, the easier the task. The hard part will be getting the piano from the truck to the inside of your house. Using a dolly would make this whole process easier. Easier yet would be to hire a professional to do the job while you sip lemonade.
Maybe I'm just being stupid, but it doesn't look like there's enough room to get truck in there, with the passenger station the way it is, etc. At any rate, the road is not shown.
I had assumed that the ground level was at the height of the rails for the siding (a common practice) and that one would cross from the team track area to the freight platform. There is plenty of room on the west (left) side to park the flatbed truck there if anyone objected to your blocking the siding track.
Cox 47 wrote:Maybe you should add a retail outlet for coal...Most folks here in Illinois at that time used coal for heating and cooking....The coal yard was pretty important and busy...would do a lot of switching...Cox 47
That would be the coal yard that is between the north elevator and the stockyard. Its already there.