NOT choosing between DCC and DC...

[corksean12]

My layout only has room for small engines, and at the moment I only have 1 loco, which has a DCC decoder.I use Bachmann ez command. Ive started looking to expand my loco fleet, but some of the locos I want will probably not have room for a decoder. I wasn't sure if I should only use dcc ready locos or go back to dc and only have 1 loco running at a time. Then it hit me,why choose? my plan is to have the track bus connecting to banana speaker jack sockets, and have my Bachmann dcc controller and a dc controller each connected to banana plugs so when i want DC opperation, I can detach the DCC controller and vice versa.my trackplan is basic, no balloon loops or anything complicated.

would that work? or in other words, can you really have cake and eat it too?

[corksean12]

By the way, the sockets are available at radioshack here

 

[tomikawaTT]

Since you seem to be planning to change the entire layout from DC to DCC (or the reverse) at the same time, I'd say go for it.  Just make sure all of your analog DC (not decoder equipped) powered rolling stock is safely off any powered section of rail before plugging in your DCC system - the constant power to the track will smoke an unprotected motor.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL system)

[corksean12]

yeah I learned that lesson the hard way....

[corksean12]

are all dcc decoders able to run on dc too? i hadnt thought of that.

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

are all dcc decoders able to run on dc too? i hadnt thought of that.

In general, yes.  Som ehave a CV that can be set to enable and disable this mode.  A decoder that doesn't run on DC will do nothing.

 

[loathar]

are all dcc decoders able to run on dc too? i hadnt thought of that.

I don't think all are DC compatible. You can use N and even a few Z decoders if your locos are newer and don't draw too much amperage. There's not a whole lot you can't fit a decoder in these days.

[ARTHILL]

My layout was DC. When I went to DCC I put a DPDT switch in so I could go back and forth. I never ghave gone back to DC once.

All my DC engines run on the DCC address of 00 (I have Digitrax). I left the old DC blocks in place and I can park my DC locos on sidings and turn those blocks off. When I want to run a DC loco, I turn that one block on, set 00 and a way it goes.

[larak]

My layout was DC. When I went to DCC I put a DPDT switch in so I could go back and forth.

I left the old DC blocks in place and I can park my DC locos on sidings and turn those blocks off. When I want to run a DC loco, I turn that one block on, set 00 and a way it goes.

I plan to do something similar once I can afford DCC. The DPDT switch is the way to go. A lot easier than jacks and plugs. It can even be a center-off type. Just make sure that it can handle AT LEAST 5 amps. 10 would be better as some of the cheaper ones are overrated.

Karl

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

are all dcc decoders able to run on dc too? i hadnt thought of that.

I don't think all are DC compatible. You can use N and even a few Z decoders if your locos are newer and don't draw too much amperage. There's not a whole lot you can't fit a decoder in these days.

A decoder might not respond to DC, but unless you way overvoltage it, it isn't going to hurt anything.  A DC signal is just a DC signal that goes forward and reverse really fast.

[uprr]

I'm glad to see someone else is doing the same thing!! really easy to do. I was also thinking about the toggle sitch idea but went the speaker jack route.

[mikebo]

It is my understanding that Soundtraxx decoders other than Tsunamis will not tolerate DC at all. I'm not willing to try it but that's what my LHS warned me when I said I was building a layout that could go from DC to DCC.

In actuality, I rarely run DC any more and will probably convert to DCC only when I expand my current layout.

Mike

[Phoebe Vet]

There is no need to switch back and forth.  Your EZ Command will run one DC engine on address 10.  You can even run one DC and up to 9 DCC engines at the same time.

When you are ready to move up, there are several good DCC systems.  All of them will run one DC engine.  Since your DC controller can only run one engine, why change back and forth?

[wjstix]

BTW what engines are looking at that you think won't have room for DCC?? Nowadays it's pretty hard to find an engine that's too small for a decoder, even tiny engines like say the Spectrum two-truck Climax is set up to accept a 'plug and play' 8-pin decoder.

[corksean12]

One of the reasons for wanting to keep DC I forgot to mention is that I want to have an automatic IR shuttle system, and I read on another thread that that is harder to do on DCC, and  figured it would be even harder if not impossible to do on EZ command. The reason for the jacks and not a switch is just so I can store the controllers away when not in use.

One of the locos I want in the future is a BR 0-4-0 pug:

http://www.collectiques.net/catalogue/hornby/trains/pugclass0f.html

Probably not impsossible to get a decoder into one, but difficult. and I would like to take my time with decoder conversions anyway.

 

[tormadel]

BTW what engines are looking at that you think won't have room for DCC?? Nowadays it's pretty hard to find an engine that's too small for a decoder, even tiny engines like say the Spectrum two-truck Climax is set up to accept a 'plug and play' 8-pin decoder.

I have a P2K SW8. And it's instructions say a decoder was not included because it wouldn't fit. But it later says to remove the weight in the engine to make room for a decoder if you want to go that route. Now removing the weight from a locomotive, even a switch engine, sounds like folly to me since it would be able to pull a toothpick without some trackion. Any advice on this?

[tormadel]

Also, for the most part, I am starting out my collection buying locomotives without sound or DCC controllers in them. But, prefer models that are DCC ready. Believeing that when I'm ready to start operations I would like to have all the same decoder from same manufacteror etc. The spectrums come with it in there, but from reading the documentation I don't believe there will be too many problems intergrating them.

<I really need a good book I can trust to teach me about wiring and DCC>

[Phoebe Vet]

<I really need a good book I can trust to teach me about wiring and DCC>

http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/12242.html

If your layout is small and you don't need transponding or detection then the way you wire for DCC is to hook one wire from the control station to the right rail, the other to the left rail, check for short circuits and plug it in.

If you want to use it to it's potential, then try the book at the above link.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

The Bachmann system can run DCC and DC locos at the same time without the use of a separate power pack. Also for small locos, Digitrax makes several decoders for N and Z scale that are robust enough for use in HO locos and will fit almost anywhere.

[wjstix]

BTW what engines are looking at that you think won't have room for DCC?? Nowadays it's pretty hard to find an engine that's too small for a decoder, even tiny engines like say the Spectrum two-truck Climax is set up to accept a 'plug and play' 8-pin decoder.

I have a P2K SW8. And it's instructions say a decoder was not included because it wouldn't fit. But it later says to remove the weight in the engine to make room for a decoder if you want to go that route. Now removing the weight from a locomotive, even a switch engine, sounds like folly to me since it would be able to pull a toothpick without some trackion. Any advice on this?

Well I have a P2K switcher - I think it's an SW8 - that I run back to back with my BLI NW-2 (which came with factory sound and DCC). I had no trouble converting it to DCC, just "plug and play" as I recall.

I have had to remove the additional weight from a couple of engines to get a decoder to fit in but we're talking about a very small change in the engine's weight, it still has the weight of the chassis (which I think has a weight under the motor?). Maybe an ounce?? It's not that big.

Besides any loss in weight is made up for by the improved running properties - momentum to allow gradual starts and stops, Back EMF to allow it to run up and down hills without changing speed, setting the CV's to allow a greater range of control at lower speeds, etc...not to mention adding sound if you want.

Remember P2K makes SW8's with factory DCC and sound afterall, and they run and pull fine. Plus you should be able to convert any HO or OO engine to DCC, look at the N scale engines with DCC, even Z scale ones !!

[wjstix]

BTW that Hornby 0-4-0 is OO not HO... In OO scale, 4mm=1' not 3.5mm=1' as in HO, so it's about 1/8th larger than an HO model of the real engine would be, giving you more room for a decoder!!

[DigitalGriffin]

would that work? or in other words, can you really have cake and eat it too?

Hmmmm most difficult question grasshopper.  The answer is a definiate "maybe"

If you want to run two locos at the same time on DC you will need to seperate your layout into "blocks."  Blocks are electrically isolated sections of your layout that have power applied to them only when necessary.

It is possible to power "by the <turnout> points" so that only 1 track is powered at a time.  HOWEVER:

1.  This is best for yard layouts

2.  PECO track is the only compatible track I know of with this wiring scheme.

For what it's worth, you can fit a decoder in just about anywhere these days.  I've even seen people cram sound into HO scale 0-4-0T Docksides!

[DigitalGriffin]

When I want to run a DC loco, I turn that one block on, set 00 and a way it goes.

I just want to make sure but....

You are running modern can motors for address 0 trains?

I always cringe whenever I hear someone doing this.  While it does work, it does involve some serious risk.  Especially if you let your engine sit at speed 0 with the power on!  Most people don't stop to think that with DCC the current is alternating and that your motor is getting a full voltage impulse signal for reverse on a regular basis, even though the engine may be going full speed forward.  This causes a lot of motors to overheat and burn out.

[tormadel]

BTW what engines are looking at that you think won't have room for DCC?? Nowadays it's pretty hard to find an engine that's too small for a decoder, even tiny engines like say the Spectrum two-truck Climax is set up to accept a 'plug and play' 8-pin decoder.

I have a P2K SW8. And it's instructions say a decoder was not included because it wouldn't fit. But it later says to remove the weight in the engine to make room for a decoder if you want to go that route. Now removing the weight from a locomotive, even a switch engine, sounds like folly to me since it would be able to pull a toothpick without some trackion. Any advice on this?

Well I have a P2K switcher - I think it's an SW8 - that I run back to back with my BLI NW-2 (which came with factory sound and DCC). I had no trouble converting it to DCC, just "plug and play" as I recall.

I have had to remove the additional weight from a couple of engines to get a decoder to fit in but we're talking about a very small change in the engine's weight, it still has the weight of the chassis (which I think has a weight under the motor?). Maybe an ounce?? It's not that big.

Besides any loss in weight is made up for by the improved running properties - momentum to allow gradual starts and stops, Back EMF to allow it to run up and down hills without changing speed, setting the CV's to allow a greater range of control at lower speeds, etc...not to mention adding sound if you want.

Remember P2K makes SW8's with factory DCC and sound afterall, and they run and pull fine. Plus you should be able to convert any HO or OO engine to DCC, look at the N scale engines with DCC, even Z scale ones !!

 

Ah, so then it is a matter of ingeinuity ;)

[SpaceMouse]

I have a P2K SW8. And it's instructions say a decoder was not included because it wouldn't fit. But it later says to remove the weight in the engine to make room for a decoder if you want to go that route.

I put a N-scale decoder in my PK2 S-1 and it's a lot smaller than an SW-8. You might consider an N-scale decoder.

[wjstix]

Ah, so then it is a matter of ingeinuity ;)

Well, I guess so...if it takes 'ingenuity' to remove the body shell, take off the small weight block, pull out the dummy plug, plug in the decoder, and put the shell back on the chassis.

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

Ah, so then it is a matter of ingeinuity ;)

Well, I guess so...if it takes 'ingenuity' to remove the body shell, take off the small weight block, pull out the dummy plug, plug in the decoder, and put the shell back on the chassis.

Sometimes it takes a little more ingenuity thatn that!  Especially in N scale.

Look at decoders labelled for Z scale, as well.  In general they provide sufficient current for modern HO locos, just smaller, and more expensive.

 

[tormadel]

Ah, so then it is a matter of ingeinuity ;)

Well, I guess so...if it takes 'ingenuity' to remove the body shell, take off the small weight block, pull out the dummy plug, plug in the decoder, and put the shell back on the chassis.

 

Well if I am using a decoder intended for N or Z scale in a HO locomotive it should not just fit right in lickity split. Should take some jury rigging. Even if the connector is universal < and i think it is, i haven't actually read about DCC yet> then it should plug in fine but still need to be made secure.  I don't want to just leave it to flop about bad things happen to electronics when you are not carefull with them.

[Vail and Southwestern RR]

Ah, so then it is a matter of ingeinuity ;)

Well, I guess so...if it takes 'ingenuity' to remove the body shell, take off the small weight block, pull out the dummy plug, plug in the decoder, and put the shell back on the chassis.

Well if I am using a decoder intended for N or Z scale in a HO locomotive it should not just fit right in lickity split. Should take some jury rigging. Even if the connector is universal < and i think it is, i haven't actually read about DCC yet> then it should plug in fine but still need to be made secure.  I don't want to just leave it to flop about bad things happen to electronics when you are not carefull with them.

Kapton tape.  You can use black electrical tape, but it is thicker, and messier.

 

[ARTHILL]

I have four DC engines sitting on my layout. They sit on tracks that I turn off with a toggle left over from DC days. They just sit there. I MUST turn the toggles off when I am not using them. When I want to run one, I turn that toggle on, set the throttle for 0 and run it. When I am done I MUST get that engine back to a block that I can turn off. It works fine. It will be better when I get them all DCC, but the brass ones are difficult and must wait their turn. In the mean time I have engines I like to run.