corksean12 wrote:Thanks everyone, I didnt know n and z scale decoders could be used in HO scale (technically I am modelling OO but its not much of difference and its quicker to say HO), i will have to check that out. I think I will still go the jack and plugs route though, so i can get an automatic shuttle system.
Now that I think about it, I believe I have an old Walthers FM H-10-44 switcher that has a Digitrax Z decoder in it.
BTW about decoders flopping around - it's a mixed thing, you want the decoder to stay in place but you have to be careful as decoders can get hot, and will melt glue or even tape holding them in place. Usually I try to get the decoder somewhere where it's free from touching anything - like above a truck in a diesel - and then taping the wires leading up to the decoder in place. The wires coming from the decoder are stiff enough to hold it in place.
On another note along this line. I'm also assuming it would be the course of wisdom to finish collecting my pieces and get started on building the layout first. Because of changing technologies the more you wait the most latest bells and whistles you'll get for your buck.
Phoebe Vet wrote: The AC voltage on the track does send reversing voltage to your DC engine. The control of it on address zero comes from stretching the zero pulse on one side or the other. That is not as efficient as DC, so the train will not perform as well, but it does not hurt your engine. The cooling of your electric motor in the engine comes from the spinning armature. The danger to your DC engine occurrs when it is not moving. It is getting the rapidly reversing current, but no armature movement, so it overheats. The overheat CAN (not necessarly will) burn out the motor. No separate blocks are required to mix DC & DCC, but you should remove your DC engines from powered track if they are not moving. Since DC engines cannot read the digital pulses, if you have more than one DC engine on the track at the same time, all DC engines will respond to the zero address just like they would if they were all in the same block of a DC layout.
The AC voltage on the track does send reversing voltage to your DC engine. The control of it on address zero comes from stretching the zero pulse on one side or the other. That is not as efficient as DC, so the train will not perform as well, but it does not hurt your engine. The cooling of your electric motor in the engine comes from the spinning armature. The danger to your DC engine occurrs when it is not moving. It is getting the rapidly reversing current, but no armature movement, so it overheats. The overheat CAN (not necessarly will) burn out the motor. No separate blocks are required to mix DC & DCC, but you should remove your DC engines from powered track if they are not moving. Since DC engines cannot read the digital pulses, if you have more than one DC engine on the track at the same time, all DC engines will respond to the zero address just like they would if they were all in the same block of a DC layout.
Very well explained! When the DC train is not moving KILL the power! (Sorry Art, I didn't mean to sound like I was picking on you. I'm just throwing out a warning to others contemplating this.)
I will throw in two more cents and state that pancake motors (Tyco) and open frame motors don't do as well as can type motors.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
onebiglizard wrote: Like many, I have a fleet of DC locos and am planning (soon I hope) to convert my layout to DCC. I have always assumed that I could convert these old DC units at my leisure, while continuing to use them on the DCC layout with address "0".However, the posts here indicating the problems with a DC unit on a full voltage DCC track opened my eyes - I can see where you could easily smoke a motor. It seems like I'm missing something though. Most (or all?) of the DCC suppliers indicate you can run a single DC unit on a DCC layout. Sounds from the posts that that may be true, with some risk to your DC motor. But does that only work if you operate your DC loco in a block that is electrically isolated from the sections running DCC? Are the 1-DC-unit-on-your-DCC-layout assurances from the manufacturers misleading, or am I just dense? Thanks,Bill Field
Like many, I have a fleet of DC locos and am planning (soon I hope) to convert my layout to DCC. I have always assumed that I could convert these old DC units at my leisure, while continuing to use them on the DCC layout with address "0".
However, the posts here indicating the problems with a DC unit on a full voltage DCC track opened my eyes - I can see where you could easily smoke a motor.
It seems like I'm missing something though. Most (or all?) of the DCC suppliers indicate you can run a single DC unit on a DCC layout. Sounds from the posts that that may be true, with some risk to your DC motor. But does that only work if you operate your DC loco in a block that is electrically isolated from the sections running DCC? Are the 1-DC-unit-on-your-DCC-layout assurances from the manufacturers misleading, or am I just dense?
Thanks,
Bill Field
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I think at this point you would only say that 'some' DCC systems support running one DC loco. There are a few reasons, the first being that running the DC loco reduces the performance of the DCC system. It isn't a huge problem, but the more trains there are running, the bigger the problem is. I think that another reason is that decoders have gotten smaller and cheaper, generally, so there are few reasons not to convert (thought there are certainly still reasons). Another reason is that to many people (and I'd say I'm in this camp) the noise when running a DC loco can be almost unbearable. One other reason (and I won't say last, since there are proabably more) is that SOME motors don't like running in this mode and do burn out.
The DC loco operated on the same track as the DCC locos. The mode of operation is sort of pulse control taken to an extreme. The voltage is flipping between full forward and full reverse, with the direction you want to go getting longer pulses. Some engines perform better in this mode than others.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
I have had no problems with my DC engines. Maybe later.
You do not have to run them on an isolated block. You store them on an isolated block. You run them of the DCC track like any other engine. Though you can only run one DC engine at a time, you can run them with as many DCC engines as you have throttles for.
tormadel wrote: wjstix wrote: tormadel wrote: Ah, so then it is a matter of ingeinuity ;)Well, I guess so...if it takes 'ingenuity' to remove the body shell, take off the small weight block, pull out the dummy plug, plug in the decoder, and put the shell back on the chassis. Well if I am using a decoder intended for N or Z scale in a HO locomotive it should not just fit right in lickity split. Should take some jury rigging. Even if the connector is universal < and i think it is, i haven't actually read about DCC yet> then it should plug in fine but still need to be made secure. I don't want to just leave it to flop about bad things happen to electronics when you are not carefull with them.
wjstix wrote: tormadel wrote: Ah, so then it is a matter of ingeinuity ;)Well, I guess so...if it takes 'ingenuity' to remove the body shell, take off the small weight block, pull out the dummy plug, plug in the decoder, and put the shell back on the chassis.
tormadel wrote: Ah, so then it is a matter of ingeinuity ;)
Ah, so then it is a matter of ingeinuity ;)
Well, I guess so...if it takes 'ingenuity' to remove the body shell, take off the small weight block, pull out the dummy plug, plug in the decoder, and put the shell back on the chassis.
Well if I am using a decoder intended for N or Z scale in a HO locomotive it should not just fit right in lickity split. Should take some jury rigging. Even if the connector is universal < and i think it is, i haven't actually read about DCC yet> then it should plug in fine but still need to be made secure. I don't want to just leave it to flop about bad things happen to electronics when you are not carefull with them.
Kapton tape. You can use black electrical tape, but it is thicker, and messier.
Sometimes it takes a little more ingenuity thatn that! Especially in N scale.
Look at decoders labelled for Z scale, as well. In general they provide sufficient current for modern HO locos, just smaller, and more expensive.
tormadel wrote: I have a P2K SW8. And it's instructions say a decoder was not included because it wouldn't fit. But it later says to remove the weight in the engine to make room for a decoder if you want to go that route.
I put a N-scale decoder in my PK2 S-1 and it's a lot smaller than an SW-8. You might consider an N-scale decoder.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
wjstix wrote: tormadel wrote: wjstix wrote:BTW what engines are looking at that you think won't have room for DCC?? Nowadays it's pretty hard to find an engine that's too small for a decoder, even tiny engines like say the Spectrum two-truck Climax is set up to accept a 'plug and play' 8-pin decoder.I have a P2K SW8. And it's instructions say a decoder was not included because it wouldn't fit. But it later says to remove the weight in the engine to make room for a decoder if you want to go that route. Now removing the weight from a locomotive, even a switch engine, sounds like folly to me since it would be able to pull a toothpick without some trackion. Any advice on this?Well I have a P2K switcher - I think it's an SW8 - that I run back to back with my BLI NW-2 (which came with factory sound and DCC). I had no trouble converting it to DCC, just "plug and play" as I recall. I have had to remove the additional weight from a couple of engines to get a decoder to fit in but we're talking about a very small change in the engine's weight, it still has the weight of the chassis (which I think has a weight under the motor?). Maybe an ounce?? It's not that big.Besides any loss in weight is made up for by the improved running properties - momentum to allow gradual starts and stops, Back EMF to allow it to run up and down hills without changing speed, setting the CV's to allow a greater range of control at lower speeds, etc...not to mention adding sound if you want.Remember P2K makes SW8's with factory DCC and sound afterall, and they run and pull fine. Plus you should be able to convert any HO or OO engine to DCC, look at the N scale engines with DCC, even Z scale ones !!
tormadel wrote: wjstix wrote:BTW what engines are looking at that you think won't have room for DCC?? Nowadays it's pretty hard to find an engine that's too small for a decoder, even tiny engines like say the Spectrum two-truck Climax is set up to accept a 'plug and play' 8-pin decoder.I have a P2K SW8. And it's instructions say a decoder was not included because it wouldn't fit. But it later says to remove the weight in the engine to make room for a decoder if you want to go that route. Now removing the weight from a locomotive, even a switch engine, sounds like folly to me since it would be able to pull a toothpick without some trackion. Any advice on this?
wjstix wrote:BTW what engines are looking at that you think won't have room for DCC?? Nowadays it's pretty hard to find an engine that's too small for a decoder, even tiny engines like say the Spectrum two-truck Climax is set up to accept a 'plug and play' 8-pin decoder.
I have a P2K SW8. And it's instructions say a decoder was not included because it wouldn't fit. But it later says to remove the weight in the engine to make room for a decoder if you want to go that route. Now removing the weight from a locomotive, even a switch engine, sounds like folly to me since it would be able to pull a toothpick without some trackion. Any advice on this?
Well I have a P2K switcher - I think it's an SW8 - that I run back to back with my BLI NW-2 (which came with factory sound and DCC). I had no trouble converting it to DCC, just "plug and play" as I recall.
I have had to remove the additional weight from a couple of engines to get a decoder to fit in but we're talking about a very small change in the engine's weight, it still has the weight of the chassis (which I think has a weight under the motor?). Maybe an ounce?? It's not that big.
Besides any loss in weight is made up for by the improved running properties - momentum to allow gradual starts and stops, Back EMF to allow it to run up and down hills without changing speed, setting the CV's to allow a greater range of control at lower speeds, etc...not to mention adding sound if you want.
Remember P2K makes SW8's with factory DCC and sound afterall, and they run and pull fine. Plus you should be able to convert any HO or OO engine to DCC, look at the N scale engines with DCC, even Z scale ones !!
ARTHILL wrote: When I want to run a DC loco, I turn that one block on, set 00 and a way it goes.
When I want to run a DC loco, I turn that one block on, set 00 and a way it goes.
I just want to make sure but....
You are running modern can motors for address 0 trains?
I always cringe whenever I hear someone doing this. While it does work, it does involve some serious risk. Especially if you let your engine sit at speed 0 with the power on! Most people don't stop to think that with DCC the current is alternating and that your motor is getting a full voltage impulse signal for reverse on a regular basis, even though the engine may be going full speed forward. This causes a lot of motors to overheat and burn out.
corksean12 wrote: would that work? or in other words, can you really have cake and eat it too?
would that work? or in other words, can you really have cake and eat it too?
Hmmmm most difficult question grasshopper. The answer is a definiate "maybe"
If you want to run two locos at the same time on DC you will need to seperate your layout into "blocks." Blocks are electrically isolated sections of your layout that have power applied to them only when necessary.
It is possible to power "by the <turnout> points" so that only 1 track is powered at a time. HOWEVER:
1. This is best for yard layouts
2. PECO track is the only compatible track I know of with this wiring scheme.
For what it's worth, you can fit a decoder in just about anywhere these days. I've even seen people cram sound into HO scale 0-4-0T Docksides!
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
tormadel wrote: <I really need a good book I can trust to teach me about wiring and DCC>
<I really need a good book I can trust to teach me about wiring and DCC>
http://kalmbachcatalog.stores.yahoo.net/12242.html
If your layout is small and you don't need transponding or detection then the way you wire for DCC is to hook one wire from the control station to the right rail, the other to the left rail, check for short circuits and plug it in.
If you want to use it to it's potential, then try the book at the above link.
Also, for the most part, I am starting out my collection buying locomotives without sound or DCC controllers in them. But, prefer models that are DCC ready. Believeing that when I'm ready to start operations I would like to have all the same decoder from same manufacteror etc. The spectrums come with it in there, but from reading the documentation I don't believe there will be too many problems intergrating them.
One of the reasons for wanting to keep DC I forgot to mention is that I want to have an automatic IR shuttle system, and I read on another thread that that is harder to do on DCC, and figured it would be even harder if not impossible to do on EZ command. The reason for the jacks and not a switch is just so I can store the controllers away when not in use.
One of the locos I want in the future is a BR 0-4-0 pug:
http://www.collectiques.net/catalogue/hornby/trains/pugclass0f.html
Probably not impsossible to get a decoder into one, but difficult. and I would like to take my time with decoder conversions anyway.
There is no need to switch back and forth. Your EZ Command will run one DC engine on address 10. You can even run one DC and up to 9 DCC engines at the same time.
When you are ready to move up, there are several good DCC systems. All of them will run one DC engine. Since your DC controller can only run one engine, why change back and forth?
It is my understanding that Soundtraxx decoders other than Tsunamis will not tolerate DC at all. I'm not willing to try it but that's what my LHS warned me when I said I was building a layout that could go from DC to DCC.
In actuality, I rarely run DC any more and will probably convert to DCC only when I expand my current layout.
Mike