Thanks for all the help in the starting phases!!! There have been a few tweaks over the last month and some construction. Track is down as you can see and I have tested servicability to all the industry spurs and it runs nicely. One thing that really helped was in the last month I have been able to operate on a LARGE operations based layout twice. Very nice!
Layout bench
Light canopy
Chip,
I was thinking for the local switching in the industries but now that I look at it I could do all my runaround moves over there if I had that siding. I tried to put a turnout on the engine service track, it left no room for a sand or fuel "building" I think I'll leave it off so there are some building areas in the yard.
The 36" track length was a random number I pulled out of the air, since then I have tried to make sure each siding has at least 48", still going to make it a little hard for my A/D track.
Dave
schdp wrote: Auto, Thanks! Since I have never run an operation style layout I really am lacking in envisioning how it would work. The way you laid it out gives me a really good idea how it can happen. Thanks a ton!Chip, I see what you mean... I'll play around with adding a siding on the other side to see how everything fits. On the RIP track, I just added that because I was going thru a website and saw it I actually think a runaround attached to the yard body would be much more useful.
Auto,
Thanks! Since I have never run an operation style layout I really am lacking in envisioning how it would work. The way you laid it out gives me a really good idea how it can happen. Thanks a ton!
I see what you mean... I'll play around with adding a siding on the other side to see how everything fits. On the RIP track, I just added that because I was going thru a website and saw it I actually think a runaround attached to the yard body would be much more useful.
Why do you need a runaround there? If your engine disconnects outside the yard, and the switcher pulls the cars toward "J", what will be come trapped and need a runaround.
On the industry for the sand and fuel stations, how about that small body stub to be used? Fuel would be a pretty quick unload not sure on the sand... ideas?
I like the engine service where it is. I'm just wondering if you could give it more room. Maybe you can't. I can't see your plan form this screen.
The smallest siding is 48 inches, well over my goal of 36" trains. I could however have a longer train just as long as I kept any other at the 48 inch min and the longest train always had priority. Thanks again to everyone! Dave Dave
Thanks again to everyone! Dave
36" is short for N scale. Like a passenger train or way-freight.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I see what you mean... I'll play around with adding a siding on the other side to see how everything fits. On the RIP track, I just added that because I was going thru a website and saw it I actually think a runaround attached to the yard body would be much more useful. On the industry for the sand and fuel stations, how about that small body stub to be used? Fuel would be a pretty quick unload not sure on the sand... ideas?
The smallest siding is 48 inches, well over my goal of 36" trains. I could however have a longer train just as long as I kept any other at the 48 inch min and the longest train always had priority.
Charles,
Thanks for that link, it helped a lot! Also on the software because I am still in the learning phase for operation type "stuff". I'll have to re-read the sections on car cards and waybills to get a better understanding of it. I have started a little database of the cars so I could printout car cards...
Other opinions may vary, but I see three passing sidings all away from the yard area where you have the most congestion and action. You really don't want to foul your yard by using it as a passing siding--the yard master would have a conniption fit. Anyway, I'd nudge your industries inland and add a long parallel track in that area. That way your industrial switching can foul the new siding instead of the main and leave the main for the through traffic.
Your yard lead probably really will extend into K or your industry siding if you max out your train size. BTW: your train size is limited by your smallest siding. (Yes, you can do a saw-by. but it will get old.)
Your space near engine service is pretty limited. Remember it is both a place to fuel and sand and a "industry" to deliver sand and fuel to. Can you service the "industry" without fouling engine service? Service can occur in off hours if the track is clear when needed. The RIP track will need a place for parts, etc. Do you plan a place to repair engines?
schdp wrote: The way I put the Inglenook puzzle allows me to use the industry door location for normal operation, the second track for empties, and the third for switcher storage... Whenever I want to play I can just clear it out and do some puzzle work....Also been thinking more about operations lately, not sure I want to shell out the cash for a software program until I have this at least running but it has made me wonder if it really would work. Say a 1-2 person operating session, that could last 2ish hours... More things I just don't know, yet
The way I put the Inglenook puzzle allows me to use the industry door location for normal operation, the second track for empties, and the third for switcher storage... Whenever I want to play I can just clear it out and do some puzzle work.
...
Also been thinking more about operations lately, not sure I want to shell out the cash for a software program until I have this at least running but it has made me wonder if it really would work. Say a 1-2 person operating session, that could last 2ish hours... More things I just don't know, yet
s:
An Inglenook, nice. Good to have some options like that for when the regular crew isn't around. The IN is a good choice for a switching puzzle, too, because most of its restriction is taken away if you take away the lead-length restriction, so it doesn't get in the way when you're doing normal operations. It's also lots of fun.
I could see this RR taking as many operators as you want or have standing room for. You could run it in a simple way by yourself or with 2 people, or even 6 or more.
Besides the through trains, you can have:
Local switching at the mine and 3 industrial areas
Way freights to drop off cars at these areas, or dedicated mine/corn plant jobs
Transfer runs to the interchange
"G" Tower(you've got mainline trains, yard trains, and industry switching to control going through there, very cool)
Possibly a dispatcher to keep everybody out of everybody's way
It looks like a great railroad.
Dave ..
The railroad is coming along very nicely. Regarding track centers ..I'd look at the NMRA RPs (http://www.nmra.org/standards/consist.html) for some good solid advice on this topic, keeping in mind the extra finger seperation you might need in switching areas.
From an operations testing standpoint you can run a paper train over a paper copy of the design just to see if the trains you're interested in running work,etc. This will help you find out if some tweaks in the track is necessary to accommodate what you want to do. I did this and gave me cause to move some turnouts and opened up the option for a double deck in one area, making for a much more enjoyable experience.
Also, you really don't need to invest in operations software yet (or maybe not at all). Card Card & Waybill approach is very flexible, time proven and adjustable to your railroad. I've used switchlist software for a prior railroad and was very happy with it. But the new railroad is so much more complex than the prvious one that I found both the setup and limits in the software did not wwould be an inhibiting factor - so I went back to the CC & WB method. You make these yourself or use the starter kits that are on the market.
Charles
Here is what I have been working on. The switchback in the N area has been removed. I changed the yard slightly, added a RIP track but may join it to the last yard stub to create a runaround. The yard lead is now the same length as the longest body track but it and the AR track is just an inch or so shy of that (3ft trains are the lenght I am shooting for). Both of these tracks double as a siding for the mainline. I took out the crossover in the F area, just felt it wasn't needed and it gives me a reason to have a lead-in industry. Oh and been playing around with switching puzzles, really like them! The way I put the Inglenook puzzle allows me to use the industry door location for normal operation, the second track for empties, and the third for switcher storage... Whenever I want to play I can just clear it out and do some puzzle work.
I've started adding where the town roads and industry parking lots are going to go. The building at O is not going to be the one I use it's just a placeholder for now as I think I'm going to use a modular or attempt a kitbash/scratchbuild 2 story building with lots of loading doors.
SM,
I'll give it a test... As for the layout image, that is an old one. I haven't posted the latest in awhile. I have removed the switchback in the one area, still working on the yard, added a 5 foot staging line to the bottom turn, it actually pulls into the tunnel like a double main but does not come out the other end. Staging will also come from an idea I have to a 2-3 turn helix off that same end. I'm thinking more of an oval helix with 2 lines that way I can kind of do serial staging as well as pull one out and go around the trains in front of it. Right now it is all in my head and I need to put it on paper to make sure it works. I'll post the layout and idea later when work slows down!
The spacing in the yard has to do with your fingers.
The spacing in the turn has to do with two trains hitting one another. You can test these before you build.
BTW: I saw none of the issues addressed that we talked about in the PMs.
OK, into the construction phase and noticed something on the track spacing. In the yard area it put most of the track at 1 1/4 inches apart, which is what I read in the "Track Planning for realistic operation" book. But recently saw a post that said it should be a minimum of 1 1/2.
Now the curves are a different story, it is laid out with 1 inch between, which I know would be bad. I did some testing with the Woodland Scenic foam risers I am using and I can fit 2 tracks on there with about 1 5/16 spacing between (15 inch radius). This is under the recommended min in the book but is it going to cause problems? I have 2 areas of the track this is going to occur.
Thanks!
Once again I am at it with a new revision based on advice...
I am really starting to feel how this railroad is going to work. I've also tried to work all the details thru as far as space for cars/locos but I'm sure that I will miss something that someone else will be like.. "Duh look there!" Please if there is anything that should be changed or that I'm going to have problems with let me know, your experience and comments are very welcome! FYI, the pink colored curves are 11 inch radius.
I've added the Walthers creamery as the large industry for now as I'm not settled on how what that will actually be, still need to go thru that industry database.
Thanks! I was able to get most of everything except 2 industry tracks to 15... Those 2 are at 11.5. Hopefully that will be ok because I think I am finally getting to a good point. Going to post it later today but want to put some labels on everything first.
schdp wrote: Just went thru the layout and was able to make all the turns a 15 radius or higher. Would that work for 80's? 90's?I could take the turnouts out of the tunnel, it gives me about 4ft of hidden staging for that side. This would be in addition to the staging on the lower level that will be connected via 4 foot cassettes until I get the helix which is part of phase 2.Thanks for the advice, I'll be looking for that database! Dave
Just went thru the layout and was able to make all the turns a 15 radius or higher. Would that work for 80's? 90's?
I could take the turnouts out of the tunnel, it gives me about 4ft of hidden staging for that side. This would be in addition to the staging on the lower level that will be connected via 4 foot cassettes until I get the helix which is part of phase 2.
Thanks for the advice, I'll be looking for that database!
At 15" you should be able to run almost anything. Some of the longest might look better if you could squeeze more, but I think everything (or very nearly) should operate.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
schdp wrote: Thanks for the advice, I'll be looking for that database!
Here - Operations Special Interest Group (OPSIG) Industry database:
http://www.opsig.org/industrydb/
Smile,Stein
A few minor thoughts:
If at all possible increase the radius on the main - 11 in will be just way too tight for 1980's era rolling stock; though it would work ok in the industrial park.
Drop the hidden turnouts in the upper right - they just don't add much and will likely be a headache given the reach to them for upkeep
I think you can safely drop the proposed exchange spur in the right corner
What about extending the long exchange spur on the bottom left into the tunnel ? That way you can have a second RR with its own loco to run an active interchange in and out of the tunnel to the small yard. maybe even some sort of regional shortline. While the scene may not be exactly protptypical, you'd have an active operational source for cars.
Staging - with this space staging would be a great thing to try and work in (or maybe I just missed it)
Manual turnouts throws such as Caboose Industries would work fine. I've used them for over 20 years and never had a complaint.
On the issue of the upper left industry - some sort of large general manufacturing plant might work well here. However, before making a selection look at the region you're trying to model and see if you can find some real examples. There's also a data base online someplace of more than 40000 industries and the products in/out and car types that service them that might be usefula as well to look into.
Question for everyone, how important is it to have an interchange line at the upper/right section of the layout? I don't plan on having a yard there and it is really causing some frustration with getting the trackage right up there.
Thanks
chateauricher,
It hasn't been mentioned but I have thought about it. I'm not sure if changing the era to 1980 to 1987 will help but I have been thinking about it. Why 87? I have one locomotive that was produced that year. I'll have to look but most of the radius are in the 15inch range.
Unless I've missed it, no-one has commented on your proposed 11" minimum radius curves for an N-scale 1990-present layout...
You will likely find that 11" is very tight and will frustratingly limit what locomotives and rolling stock you can run problem-free. I strongly suggest you consider using larger curves (in the 16-18" range).
This has evolved very nicely! I agree with Spacemouse's comments on the underground turnouts. I have a double crossover that is going to be partly concealed, and I already dislike it intensely. To the point where I'm thinking about pinning it in the straight through position and sacrificing the operational flexibility is will give me. (This is far from a done deal, just an indication of the seriousness of the issue).
Should there be a loco escape switch up at K?
I like the solution to the exchange track.
I don't like the turnouts underground. I did that once thought I had to. Very bad idea.
Ground throws are a good solution. In the layouts where I operate they all use ground throws. The are easy, efficient and reliable. It looks like what you have is reachable as well. Ground throws can be 2 -3 feet from the turnout if needed by using piano wire.
Well I did a little work on the Industrial park area by putting them in a more logical arangement so car/truck traffic could get to the buildings. Not sure it it is too structured now but I think it is shaping up.
I've also added a hidden staging under the right side elevation, going to design in a removable top for the mountain so I can maintain the turnouts in there and get any derailed freight. I figure I could hide the seams with trees... ok idea?
Been thinking about all these turnouts and how to switch them, local place says use tortoise but at close to 40 turnouts that is going to add up! Been looking a the ground throws for the lower/close ones and either tortoise or cable mounted throws for the rest. I've seen a lot on the tortoise and reb caboose ground throws but how about some others, what else is used that works?
I still feel that I don't have a good plan for the top large industry. Here is what I would like and if you can find of any ideas that would be great. I would like something the uses several different types of material, coal, grain, chemical, box car. Something that would need it's own switching engine. I would want to drop off a large delivery and pick up empties from another line. Right now I just put in a creamery but thought maybe a petfood manufacturer, posibly a consumer products manu. Ideas?
Lastly should I put in a few more smaller industry/drops on the top section? It seems a little light.
Thanks again for taking the time...
PS. Ignore the 2 ideas for the coal mine, I just can't decide at this point
hrm... I tried that but just couldn't get it worked out and be able to maintain the track. Is it really important to be able to reach the top spirl in a helix?
Space mouse, what do you think of Auto's idea of making it a siding? a double switch is about $100 vs $20 for the 2 switchs Could get another engine with the savings... or if I can make the helix work the exchange would really come from the under side.
schdp wrote: As far as the helix, I am still thinking of it... have to get some land rights for an extra 3ft that will take the lower exchange track to the lower level
Trackage rights? You have room either under the coal mine or under "J" in the upper right.
And helices look harder than they are. If you cut your circles semi close and use all-thread as your supports, you will have really fine adjustments that you can make to get it perfect.
schdp wrote:have to get some land rights for an extra 3ft that will take the lower exchange track to the lower level Thanks, Dave
Thanks, Dave
LOL... thanks to you too Dave! You gave me a real gut buster of a laugh with that one! Yeah, land rights. It's a tough sell for all of us. I too feel the helix is out of my league at this time but I have a spot reserved where I would sure like to put one....someday.
BlueHills,
Thanks, I've had a lot of help! The yard is growing and staging will come from below. I do like your hidden "wait" staging. I was already thinking about hiding a removable section of the upper right tunnel if I did that I would put an area in there for the train to halt.
As far as the helix, I am still thinking of it... have to get some land rights for an extra 3ft that will take the lower exchange track to the lower level