Website for big modules built entirely of blue foam

[NevinW]

A while back someone here posted a web address for a series of pictures of the construction of a large loop HO module built entiredly of blue foam. Very mimimal wood was used except for the legs. There were some construction ideas that I wanted to look at again and (of course) I can't find the site. Anyone remember these pictures and this site? Thanks - Nevin

[jktrains]

I'm not familiar with a loop module built almost entirely of blue foam.  I know of a few different loop modules, but most are constructed of various frames or boxes with foam inserted insde the frame.  My loop module is 9 pieces and is around 11' x 17' when assembled.  The problem you'll have no using a wood frame is that the foam edges will be easily damaged during transport.

[NevinW]

This was a big reverse loop made entirely of blue foam. Wood was glued to it to provide supports for the legs and for the attachment of of the different modules. The edge was covered with masonite.- Nevin

[marknewton]

you need some sort of frame work to support the foam.  Without it, any bit of weight on the layout will snap it in 2.

Not true, David, not true at all. What basis do you have for making such a statement?

Some mates of mine have been building modules for a 7mm scale exhibition layout, which have no framing at all. They are skinned with either expanded PVC or car boot carpet to protect the edges, otherwise they rely entirely on the strength and rigidity of the foam. None of them have snapped in two.

[NeO6874]

I took david's initial response to mean any _human_ weight.  Though this depends on the thickness of the foam.  2" stuff will be able to withstand a fair amount of force before it buckles, but 0.5" or 0.75" snaps much more readily... 

[marknewton]

...eering on the side of caution.  All you need is a lightweight 1x4 or 1x2 bracing system to support the foam. 

David B

Unecessary. You don't need any timber bracing sytem at all when using 2" or 4" foam as a module base.

Have you ever actually built, transported and exhibited modules made of foam?

Mark.

[jktrains]

I have.  My experience is that you need a wood frame around the perimeter of the foam to prevent damage from transporting the modules, especially damage along the edges that butt together.  Also, even 2" thick foam, stored horizontally will develop a sag if left up supported over the entire 4' length.  I have exhibited with modules built with an exposed foam top.  The mating surfaces of the foam were easily damaged, often leading to problems when connectting modules and joining track between adjacent modules.  While I t may be able to be done, I would not consider a best practice because of the possiblilty of damage to the foam ruining the module.

Without a wood frame and just a 2" piece of foam, how do you connect two modules together?  Do you clamp them together?  Where do place the clamp?  What baout doamage to the foam from excessive clamp pressure?

[nof]

It would be interesting to see the module that the original posting was asking for. THEN we could discuss the pros and cons. Clamping it with another module or attaching it in some other way?

I have built my layout with 5cm extruded foam reinforced with an extra 5cm thick and 10cm wide frame of foam under the layout. It is supported with seven 7cm wide boards and thats strong enough for my N-scale locomotives and cars. I have seen on this forum suggestions on how to strngthen the foam that makes me think that it must be for the 1:1 models to run on it. I agree that it is nessesary to protect some parts of the layout with a harder material.

There are some disadvantages with foam but I think we should continue that discussion in another thread. Lets wait and see if someone can answer the original question. 

 

 

[NevinW]

Exactly.  I really wish I could find these pictures as it was basicially series of modules carved from blue foam into portions of the curved big reverse loop.  It was about 20 feet long whne assempbled.  The wood pieces were glued ot the bottom to support the legs, glued wood was used to connect the modules and masonite was used to edge the modules.  Essentially though, it was just big pieces of 2 inch thick foam carved into semicircles.  The wood parts were really minimal.  I have tried to find these pictures numerous times with no success.  I know it is out there cause I saw it just 10 days ago.  Weird! -  Nevin

[BigT]

Is this the thread you are looking for;

http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1191984/ShowPost.aspx

Regards,

Tony

 

[NevinW]

No but it was a thread like that where someone posted the URL that lead to a series of photos documenting the construction of these modules.  These photos were on a photobucket type site.  Not being able to find this is entirely too frustrating!  -  Nevin

[marknewton]

I have.  My experience is that you need a wood frame around the perimeter of the foam to prevent damage from transporting the modules, especially damage along the edges that butt together.  Also, even 2" thick foam, stored horizontally will develop a sag if left up supported over the entire 4' length. 

Hmm. The foam we get in Australia must be a lot stronger than the foam you blokes get in the USA. The 2" foam we have doesn't sag, even when supported only at the ends of a 4x8 sheet. I agree that facing the edges to protect them is a good idea, but that's not what was mentioned earlier - "a lightweight 1x4 or 1x2 bracing system to support the foam..." That is unecessary when using Australian foam. As I noted earlier, the modules are faced with expanded PVC sheet or carboot carpet to protect them, and that is sufficient for our conditions.

Without a wood frame and just a 2" piece of foam, how do you connect two modules together?  Do you clamp them together?  Where do place the clamp?  What about damage to the foam from excessive clamp pressure?

There's no clamps near the modules, so there's no damage from clamps. The modules sit on, and are aligned and joined by a sub-frame made of "Qubelok" aluminium section.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

1. Relax and open your mind to other people's ideas.

Mate, I'm very open to other people's ideas - that's why my layout is made of blue foam and Qubelok, not hundreds of feet of timber and tonnes of plaster-of-Paris smeared over bloody great swathes of chicken wire.

What I'm not open to is opinions presented as facts, or unequivocal statements that aren't supported by evidence...

2. Foam by itself is not reliable enough for making a modual (been there...done that). It will sag or break, or chip.....

That may be the case for the foam you use in North America. The foam I use is fine by itself for modules, as evidenced by the 52' by 26' modular layout under construction.

3. How do you attach the legs? Foam legs?

There are no legs attached to the module. The module sits on a subframe, which in turn sits on trestles. I can see you have a very different idea of what constitutes a module.

4. Foam + a bit of wood bracing is very strong and light weight

.
It is, I didn't suggest otherwise. But foam is very strong and lightweight on its own, which is why I don't see any need for wood bracing. Wood skins to protect the edges, perhaps. But even there I think there are other, more effective methods.

I'm trying to get away from the typical overweight, over-engineered model railway benchwork so popular in the past. Why use new materials if you're going to persist in using outmoded construction techniques more suited to supporting full-size trains?

5. I am not from the USA; I am Canadian and I think I dont need to be 'informed' when it comes to foam insulation.

Sorry, I can never distinguish between the two accents.

You obviously need to be informed about the foam we use, since it obviously differs from the stuff you use. You think living here in Australia, I don't also know about insulation?

6. "The 2" foam we have doesn't sag, even when supported only at the ends of a 4x8 sheet." I dont think so Tim.

Who's Tim? Get me name right, eh Bruce?

I have to call you out on this one. A 4x8 modual made of 2" foam WILL sag in the middle.

You've deliberately misquoted me. I've said nothing about the behaviour of a 4x8 MODULE, since I've never seen such a thing. In my experience, a 4x8 SHEET of foam, straight from the supplier, will not sag even if only supported at the ends. That's how I store mine while waiting to use them, and I've had no problems with sagging. Now tell me, how exactly do you reckon you're going to "call me out on this one"? Hop on a plane and come out to my workshop, armed with a straightedge?

Do me a favour...

Mark.

[grayfox1119]

WOW...I'm glad I had a drink of Captain Morgan and Coke before I read THIS thread. Did all of you guys have a bad day?? LOL

I use foam for my base. I have used the pink foam and the blus foam. The only difference is the manufacturer, Dow Corning being one of the manufacturers. I don't know who makes the foam used in Australia, or even if it is different, so I will not make any comments about it's strength.

I have bought foam in 4' X 8' size 2" thick and 4" thick. The 2" thick, unsupported, will sag in the middle with weight applied. I have heard of people using 2" foam alone, no support, and PVC tubing used for legs at the four corners, however, they had a layout that was only 24" wide, not the full 48" wide. ( The PVC legs were inset into the foam after gluing an additional 2" thick piece of foam at edge corners making the edges 4" thick.)

4" thick foam is considerably stronger, and will not sag in the middle. Of course this also assumes that some 250 pound "moose" is not going to try to crawl up onto the 4x8 sheet to effect repairs in the middle of the layout either.

As for damage to the edges, the foam is surprisingly resilient, however, once again, carelessness will damage the edges and cause chip-outs, afterall, it "is" foam, and I can break off edge pieces with my fingernails.

For a lightweight, easy, and inexpensive way to build a layout, foam will work, as long as proper care in handling is observed.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see".

[Anonymous]

LOL at this entire thread, all the poor guy wants is a link.

Cheers

[BRJN]

WOW...I'm glad I had a drink of Captain Morgan and Coke before I read THIS thread. LOL

I suppose you typed this standing with one hand on your hip and the opposite foot on a footstool.

(Check the pose, then the label on the CM bottle.) 

[marknewton]

I dont have hundreds of feet of timber and tonnes of plaster-of-Paris over bloody great swathes of chicken wire. In fact I use foam as a base with a light wood frame with 4 legs per 2x4 modual. Very light, and very strong. We tend not to use plaster-of-paris here in the modern world, but rather hydrocal.

Same difference. Here many modellers use no plaster or plaster-like material at all. Why bother with it? If a light weight module is the goal, using plaster defeats the purpose.

I would love to see pics please.

Each of the Australian layouts shown are of foam primary construction, none have timber framing for support, all are skinned with either expanded PVC, thin ply, styrene or carboot carpet to protect the edges. I can post more pictures, but these will give you some idea of the versatiltiy of this method.

Ah....the definition of a Modual here is something that stands on it's own and connects via clamps or other meothods to other moduals.

So that's why you're having so much trouble understanding what I've written so far. Alright, let's dispense with "module", and call them "sections" instead. The sections that my mates are building aren't free standing, the sub-frame is what holds everything up. It also aligns and connects the individual sections. Unlike the modular systems you refer to they're not intended to attach in random order or be completely interchangeable.

Ntrack and free-mo are 2 examples of "modualar standards" that we have adopted here in North America. Very exacting standards with years of experience behind them.

Yes, I've seen Free-Mo layouts at exhibitions in Europe. A great concept, I reckon. By contrast, what I've seen of Ntrack leaves me unimpressed - although maybe I've only seen poor examples of the modules, rather than there being an inherent flaw in the concept. But neither is relevant to what the group I mentioned is doing, since their intention is to build a layout that comprises individually owned and built sections making up a cohesive or unified whole. To the people imvolved, the things they are building are modules.

You clearly suggested that adding a framework is overkill.

I made a statement that contradicted yours, when I wrote that a framework was not an absolute necessity. These little wordgames you like to play don't do anything for your credibility.

I guess you dont recognize the Canadian Flag or my Location in my posts.

The Canadian flag? Yeah, I'd recognise it, if I saw it. But as I view the forum with the avatar and signature displays disabled, I didn't see any flag. I turned them off soon after I joined the forum - they don't add any value to the experience so I don't bother with them. As for your location, I never took much notice - never do, really.

Calling me an American is akin to me calling you a New Zealander...

I don't care what you call me. Sticks and stones, you know?

I dont know who would be more offended...the Australian or the New Zealander

Why do you reckon either party would be offended? We don't have the sort of animosity that you apparently have towards the US.

Tis a reference that everyone else will get....except people from Australia. Sorry...'mate'.

No need to apologise. It's your choice to communicate using dopey catchphrases from television. Just don't expect everyone to understand you, or to take you too seriously when you do.

But you did insinuate that a 4x8 sheet of 2" foam will NOT sag in the middle if supported by the ends...hence saying that a modual that size would be ok. You set up the inference...not me.

No, I made an unambiguous statement that you've attempted to distort. Sagging modules were never mentioned by me. There was no "insinuation" or "inference" - do you even know what these words really mean?. If your argument relies on wordgames like this, your case is very weak.

Tell ya what Mark. Enjoy your "modual" standards down in Australia.

Sarcasm works better when the spelling is correct - it's "module".

Enjoy a shrimp on the barbee for me and a cold one on the hot days ahead. Ill be thinking about you when it is -40c in the months to come (in my foam-insulated home).

A "a shrimp on the barbee"? Where'd you get this nonsense from - "Strine for Dummies"? Perhaps you mean prawns? Marinated in garlic & ginger they're very nice barbecued, but I don't suppose you do much outdoor cooking when it's -40c? I don't imagine you'd be doing much of anything at that temperature...

As for this issue, the bottom line is that a modual needs to be built for the long haul. This includes a design that is both rigid and light. This is achieved by what I have mentioned above...foam supported by light wood work.

Indeed, this is one method, but it's not the only method, which is what you're stating.

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• Reply

In my opinion and from my experiences foam by it'self wont make the cut.

[marknewton]

And yet it wasn't too valuable to waste on word games when you thought you were ahead on points...

[marknewton]

Yes, David, whatever you reckon. You keep on wasting that valuable time of yours playing games, trying to distort the meaning of what's been posted...

[Free-mo Tim]

Nevin,

 

Here are 2 links that should get you to where you want to go.

1)  <http://www.pbase.com/intermodal/isleta_module_set>

 2) <http://www.pbase.com/intermodal/dalies_module_set>

I hope one of these is the site you're looking for!

Regards from Ohio!

Tim 

[NevinW]

Thats It! Thoses were the sites I was looking for. Thanks - Nevin

[Free-mo Tim]

Whew!

I'm glad THAT is settled, at least!

Lurking again in Ohio

Tim 

[NeO6874]

just to make these clickable

http://www.pbase.com/intermodal/isleta_module_set

http://www.pbase.com/intermodal/dalies_module_set

 

It looks like in both cases, the foam in on top of plywood, in much the same manner that was suggested by other posters as opposed to being just foam with legs. 

 

I don't want to spark another long argument, but... these look like everyday modules to me....

 

[Free-mo Tim]

Dan,

 

Thank you for making the links clickable!

I respectfully disagree that these are not "everyday" modules.

Most modules maintain their rigidity based on the exterior cabinetry and cross supports. These modules use pads of plywood and spars for strength like in aircraft construction. The masonite sides add some longitudinal stability to the entire design. I like the concept; can't say that I could ever build one like it! Your mileage may vary......

Regards from Ohio,

Tim 

[ericboone]

David,

There are more rigid types of foam than the blue or pink stuff.  I'm sure you've seen the typically green foam that is typically used by florists to arrange artificial flowers.  That foam is darn rigid and wouldn't sag one bit in a 2 inch thick 4 x 8 foot sheet.  I've held in my own hands samples of foam that is blue and somewhere in between the stuff you find at the big home improvement stores and the florist's foam.  That might be the type of foam Mark has.

Eric 

[NeO6874]

Tim,

After re-looking at the photos I think I see what you're getting at...

My experience with the foam construction methods is rather limited still (and inherent terminology contained therein).  I've only recently getten back in the hobby (about 2 years now), and my last experience with building a layout was a LL trainset on a sheet of plywood with green paper when I was 5 (long story short - trainsets from 5 to about 14, school in the way, college allows SOME disposable income).

At the moment, I think my layout methodology would be akin to the layouts of old (spline/cookiecutter and plaster cloth)... but that's because thats what I remember reading about in MR all the time.  Though since foam is cheap (and way easier to work with), I'm definitely going that route as soon as I can make space come out of nowhere in my dorm room, LOL!

 

 

[marknewton]

I don't want to spark another long argument, but these look like everyday modules to me...

I make no apologies for having stood my ground. When someone from the other side of the world, who has never laid eyes on the work of either my friends or myself, but presumes to know that what we're doing can't work, I'll respond.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

David,

There are more rigid types of foam than the blue or pink stuff.  I'm sure you've seen the typically green foam that is typically used by florists to arrange artificial flowers.  That foam is darn rigid and wouldn't sag one bit in a 2 inch thick 4 x 8 foot sheet.  I've held in my own hands samples of foam that is blue and somewhere in between the stuff you find at the big home improvement stores and the florist's foam.  That might be the type of foam Mark has.

Eric 

Eric, that's what I was I was trying to tell, him, but without success. Apparently, living in some miserably cold part of Canadia makes you an expert on the strength and rigidity of foam available in Australia...

But thanks for your observations. The small layout shown in my photos is made of the green florist's foam, BTW - very strong!

All the best,

Mark.

[nof]

There are foam made for different purposes. I looked it up and there is a Swedish manufacturer that makes foam in six different strengths. All of them are pink and extruded. The strongest is 3.5 times stronger than the weakest one. I believe that even Dow that makes the blue kind I have used also make different qualities of foam.

When you use foam you must make the design with the foams strong and weak properties in mind.

Foams greatest advantage is it's low weight, a 5 cm (2") foam weights approximative the same as a 2.3 mm (less then 0.1") plywood. 

[snaggletooth999]

Mark...where do you get your foam from?

Who is the manufacturer, and roughly what is the costing?

I'm down in the South East of S.A. and believe it or not, no hardware, builder or insulation outlet can tell me anything about the foam, never mind supply it or anything else.

Many cases down here still stuck with wire 'n plaster, or struggle with irregular shaped,sized, weighted polysteyrene packing material.