Interesting track laying discovery onto foam subroadbed

[Greg H.]

Thanks Greg,
Next time I'm in Hobby Lobby, I'll check it out.Did you notice what kind of thickness it is?

 Or if it can be thinned out and used in a spray bottle, or an eye dropper?

Thanks

 Ed 

IIRC, it's a little thicker than Elmers white glue, and it's going to take some experaments to find out if it will thin - it does say that tool's can be cleaned up with warm water and detergent.

I found out this little bit of information today, that may be of some use - Hoof glue does not become brittle when dry, it retains some flexability.   The very thinned glue has been used on cordage ( such as bow strings ) to stiffen it and strenthen it.  

[TheK4Kid]

Thanks Greg,
Next time I'm in Hobby Lobby, I'll check it out.Did you notice what kind of thickness it is?

 Or if it can be thinned out and used in a spray bottle, or an eye dropper?

Thanks

 Ed 

IIRC, it's a little thicker than Elmers white glue, and it's going to take some experaments to find out if it will thin - it does say that tool's can be cleaned up with warm water and detergent.

I found out this little bit of information today, that may be of some use - Hoof glue does not become brittle when dry, it retains some flexability.   The very thinned glue has been used on cordage ( such as bow strings ) to stiffen it and strenthen it.  

 

Thanks Greg,

 I think I'll get some and experiment with it, and see how it thins out , if it even will, and test its adhesion properties also as it is thinned out.

 

 Ed 

[train18393]

Here is a different attack. My layout is built to be moveable (not portable) It is built of mostly 2' x 8' pieces of 2" blue foam. Each piece has a frame constructed of 1x4s under it. The cabeling and tortise switch machines are all installed so they do not stick down farther than the width of a 1x4, which is about 3 1/2 inches. I used WS foam roadbed on the mainlines with the spurs directly on the blue foam. I used Liquid Nails for Projects to stick the foam to the 1x4 frames, the roadbed to the foam and the track to the foam or roadbed as applicable. The ballast is WS fine grey and secured with the WS (Scenic Cement?) or what ever WS product is approriate. (I am at work, and I use alot of WS products so I get them mixed up sometimes. Perhaps it is age getting to me.) Just so you know the 2' x 4' foot sections are connected to each other by carriage bolts with doll pins for alllignment. The wires pass through holes drilled in the 1x4 frame and they are connected to barrier terminal blocks so they can be disconnected and pulled through if it is necessary to move the layout. I hope I never have to do that. BUT...

All this makes for pretty loud operations. My cure is 2' x 4' pieces of 1/4" paneling attached to the bottem of the layout with fiberglass insulation in the 3 1/2" dead space with all the switch machines and wireing. Be careful to leave room for the Tortises, but they are attached to a 3/4" thick piece of MDF about 6" square under the points of each switch. My layout is a fairly large 23' x 20' walk in L shape and my armpit fits just over the top of the layout, so it is relativly high. It is mostly 2' wide against the two walls, and the 4' wide where access it from both sides, so reach is no problem, and the finished look on the underside of the layout looks much better and the layout is much quiter. Of course on the top of the blue foam there is track, buildings, ground foam and other scenic elements, but the sound is not noticable against the sound generated by the sound system in the engines. The most noticible sound is through the tunnel on one end of of the L, and I think that is from the blue foam with the rocks cast in lightweight Hydrocal on that. I am still working on cureing that part...Did you ever stand next to the railroad tracks? They can be quite loud as well, so I can live with some noise.

Paul

Dayton and Mad River RR  

 

[Greg H.]

Did you ever stand next to the railroad tracks? They can be quite loud as well, so I can live with some noise.

Paul

It's not so much the noise of model trains that I find irratating but the pitch - I can live with 'Clank, Clack, Clunk, Rummmmbbbbel' of prototypes - it's the clicky, wrrrrr, russsshhh of the model that doesn't sound right - like listening  and expereancing the harmonics of finely tuned engines of a B17 fly by at only a couple hundred yards away, and then having to put up with a little two cycle weed eater scream it's head off .

Higher pitches also tend to be more penitrationg and appear to sound louder than they realy are, and it becomes it more irratating. 

[TheK4Kid]

Here is a different attack. My layout is built to be moveable (not portable) It is built of mostly 2' x 8' pieces of 2" blue foam. Each piece has a frame constructed of 1x4s under it. The cabeling and tortise switch machines are all installed so they do not stick down farther than the width of a 1x4, which is about 3 1/2 inches. I used WS foam roadbed on the mainlines with the spurs directly on the blue foam. I used Liquid Nails for Projects to stick the foam to the 1x4 frames, the roadbed to the foam and the track to the foam or roadbed as applicable. The ballast is WS fine grey and secured with the WS (Scenic Cement?) or what ever WS product is approriate. (I am at work, and I use alot of WS products so I get them mixed up sometimes. Perhaps it is age getting to me.) Just so you know the 2' x 4' foot sections are connected to each other by carriage bolts with doll pins for alllignment. The wires pass through holes drilled in the 1x4 frame and they are connected to barrier terminal blocks so they can be disconnected and pulled through if it is necessary to move the layout. I hope I never have to do that. BUT...

All this makes for pretty loud operations. My cure is 2' x 4' pieces of 1/4" paneling attached to the bottem of the layout with fiberglass insulation in the 3 1/2" dead space with all the switch machines and wireing. Be careful to leave room for the Tortises, but they are attached to a 3/4" thick piece of MDF about 6" square under the points of each switch. My layout is a fairly large 23' x 20' walk in L shape and my armpit fits just over the top of the layout, so it is relativly high. It is mostly 2' wide against the two walls, and the 4' wide where access it from both sides, so reach is no problem, and the finished look on the underside of the layout looks much better and the layout is much quiter. Of course on the top of the blue foam there is track, buildings, ground foam and other scenic elements, but the sound is not noticable against the sound generated by the sound system in the engines. The most noticible sound is through the tunnel on one end of of the L, and I think that is from the blue foam with the rocks cast in lightweight Hydrocal on that. I am still working on cureing that part...Did you ever stand next to the railroad tracks? They can be quite loud as well, so I can live with some noise.

Paul

Dayton and Mad River RR  

 

 

Hi Paul,

 Sounds interesting.ButI have a question.The 2x4 paneling 1/4 inch thick, did you attach it directly to the  bottom of the foam table tops?Then put fiberglass insualtion in the dead space?
My tables (  3---6 foot wide by 8 foot long tables, made of two inch pink foam joined ened to end,and built like a bed slat framework, 1x4's on the outside framework, with 1x3's on 16 inch centers, like a big bed frame.

So if I werte to imitate your setup, cut the 1/4 inch by 2x4 pieces into suitable sizes, place them in the spaces between the 1x3's across the width of the tables underneath, then put fiberglass insulation in the deadspace?

So let me ask you this.If I were to cut either panelling pieces, or lets say 1/4 inch plywood, into approximately 16 inch wide by 6 foot long pieces, then attach these underneath in between the framework  up against the bottom of the foam with liquid nails, then put the fiberglass insulation in, is this what you did, or am I off here in my perceptions of how you did things? 

Would this be correct?

Ed 

[train18393]

Ed,

The insulation is fiberglass with paper backing is just like goes into a wall. I cut squares to fit into the benchwork, with a cutout where a switch machine sticks out a little from the blue foam. I put the paper down against the thin paneling. I use small nails to attach the plywood to the bottem of the framework. You never know when you may need to remove the fiberglass and the panel to access for upgrades/maintenance, so do not use any kind of permanent attachment. Small screws would be great also. I would think about a #6 or #8 with a countersunk head (so there is nothing to put gashes in your noggin with) about 3/4" or 1" long.

The piece of paneling covers the entire bottem of the module, so It is usually 2' x 8'. (I do not know why I said 2x4, I think the 4 was a typo.)  Most of my modules are that size, but some are not as The sizes are made to fit into the available space, with 2x8 being the most commen.

So in a nutshell, pieces of wall insulation are put up into the recesses of the framework with the 2" blue foam on top and a sheet of panelling is attachedto the very bottem to hold the fiberglass up, and give the railroad a somewhat finished look.

There are also cut outs in the plywood for the legs to extend through in the places where necessary. Ducking under is no big deal as it is a high layout. If it were not so high I would have used the cheepest plywood I could have gotten for that task. Perhaps inexpensive sheets of masonite would be even be better as it is less resonate than plywood or perhaps an experiment with 2' x 4' sound deadning suspended ceiling tiles would be worth trying. I would think you could attach ceiling tiles with fender washers and screws.

So starting from the top you have roadbed, track, scenery, whatever, then 2" blue foam, then the 1x4 frame with the foam stuck directly to the top of that with Liquid nails for Projects. Tucked into the recesses of the 1x4 frame is fiberglass insulation, then finally the panel goes on to hold the fiberglass insulation. Hopefully this clears it up for you, If not I will be glad to provide more information. The blue foam is attched directly to the framework, there is no plywood between the blue foam and the framework.

Paul

Dayton and Mad River RR 

[TheK4Kid]

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the information.I now understand how you did it.I actually gave some thought to the idea of celing tiles before I read your latest post, thnking that between them and the fiberglass insulation, hardly any sound could resonate, and any that transferred through the 1x3 crosspieces, would be absorbed by the celing tiles.

My layout is high enough to easily roll around underneath on a small wheeled bench seat.The use of small woodscrews to attach the pieces holding the insualtion would be quite easy, and in the event of needing to do any undertable work, could easily be removed and set aside, plus giving a nice finsished look to the tables.
I am considering one other method also.On the bottom of my 1x3's attaching pieces about 2 to 3 inches wide across the width of the table, with liquid nails, so the bottom will look something like an I'Beam, then on the bottom of these, attaching  velcro strips, then velcro on whatever I attach the fiberglass to, and simply push them into place, and if need to remove for undertable work, they could easily be removed and reattached.
What do you think?

I noriginally designed my tables and layout this way, because I may move it from my basement to what is now my 3 car garage (attached) when I expand my 3 car garage further out, and place my garage doors to face the street instaed of being on the end of the house like they are now.The area that is now my garage, will be heated and cooled, and also give me the space to move much of my tablesaws, radial arm saw, band saw, etc into one side making my shop upstairs in one side of what is now my garage.
My tables can easily come apart, the legs removed, all the loose stuff on top taken off , tilted up on edge, and up the stairway and into the garage(later to become new train room, and alsp part of it a closed off workshop, giving me room downstairs to put a new family room with fireplace, big screen TV, etc, and making my future wife quite happy, giving her another room to decorate.
When my buddy Denny and I built the first table, we tried taking it up the stairway, it was light, and the two of us very easily moved it.
Then just bolt 2x4 legs back on, and set it in place in its new room.
And if Deb and I ever decide to move, it can easily be moved again.
I have buddies who have big layouts made of heavy plywood and lumber in their basements, that the only way to move them, is cut them up, which will partially destroy the layout, and making putting it back together in a new location very difficult, so I gave this method a lot of thought.
Two guys, possibly a third could easily take mine apart, move it and reassemble it without a lot of difficulty.

 Ed

 

 

[dante]

Perhaps inexpensive sheets of masonite would be even be better as it is less resonate than plywood or perhaps an experiment with 2' x 4' sound deadning suspended ceiling tiles would be worth trying. I would think you could attach ceiling tiles with fender washers and screws.

Paul

Dayton and Mad River RR 

Acoustic ceiling panels primarily absorb the sound generated within the room they are located that impinges their surface.  They are not so good at preventing sound transmission.  They might help reduce some reverberant sound in the above location, but I wouldn't count on it without an experiment.

[train18393]

ED,

If you had a flange to work with couldn't you cut pieces of celing tile, plywood or whatever just a little bit wider than the distances between the flanges and then put the fiberglass bats in with a panel pushed all the way in above one flange, then put the other edge above the other flange and let gravity hold the thing in place. But that does sound like a good idea with the flanges on the 1x3s

I am leaving for school in Norman Oklaholma for a month on the 11th. I am not always quick to respond to these while I am at school. I work as an Electronics Tech for the USPS and every time we get a new piece of equipment I get sent to some school for awhile, usually on the outskirts of Norman OK, with limited transportation. I usually take craftsman car kits to build while there to occupy my time. So if I am slow to answer that is my  excuse after the 11th. If you E-mail me I will get it sooner, but the bbs will work, but slower for me.

Paul

Dayton and Mad River RR