Hi everyone!
I thought I'd share an interesting discovery I made today concerning tracklaying on 2 inch foamboard.I originally used Ws foam roadbed glued down to my 2 inch pink foam tabletops ( 3 of them,each 6 feet by 8 feet for a 6 foot by 24 foot layout.My outside mainline is WS foam raodbed, and I originally used Elmers white glue to glue it to the pink foam,then layed down my track with grey latex caulk.I ran into a unique noise problem,with my tables resonating with what I thought was too much noise.I was very unhappy and had used this method thinking it would be quiet, strong, and lightweight if I ever need to move it.I did some more research on the forum, and found someone else said that white glue dries hard,and acts like a sound conductor, where latex caulk dries soft and pliable, and is less of a noise conductor.So I carefully pried up 8 feet of WS foamroadbed, and gently reglued it with clear latex caulk.Then I ran a train across it, a IHC 4-8-4 mountain steamer.As the engine traversed the first 6 by 8 foot table(glued down with white glue) it was noisy, and as it rolled onto the center 6 by 8 foot table(reglued with clear latex caulk), it suddenly became much quieter!!!!!Then as it rolled onto the last 6 by 8 foot table( still glued down with white glue, it once agin became noisy.
So I am convinced IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE which type of adhesive you use if you are building on foam like I am!
I will now slowly and carefully pry up and reglue all of my outside roadbed with clear laex caulk.
My track is glued down to the roadbed with grey latex caulk.
A lesson learned, but it does make a BIG DIFFERENCE!!!
TheK4Kid
Working on the Pennsy
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
larak wrote:I just love empirical evidence. Thanks for sharing your findings.
Thanks larak, and I'm glad to share!So many have shared with me, and made it possible for me to make it this far.I felt it was my turn to give something in return.This forum has been a wealth of knowledge to me,reading how everyone did things in so many different ways.Happy MRR'ing!
By the way, I ran that engine back and forth over that center 8 foot section quite a few times, forward, backward, slow, medium, fast, and each time it was quieter than the other two sections!
I'm dancing like Snoopy, nose turned high into the sky with a big smile on my face!!!
thanks man , that's one more mistake i don't have to make myself because i'm smart enough to learn when others make the mistakes for me
enjoy your new quiet railroad !
ereimer wrote: thanks man , that's one more mistake i don't have to make myself because i'm smart enough to learn when others make the mistakes for me enjoy your new quiet railroad !
Note to self: Caulk = Good Elmers = Bad
Thanks, K4, you saved me from a mistake down the road!
Suspicions confirmed!
When I was deciding how to assemble my current railroad there were several threads extolling white glue, yellow glue, Gorilla glue - all with the subtext that caulk was somehow "unsuitable" for the job.
Happily, I decided to go ahead with caulk anyway, happily caulking thin foam (fan-fold underlayment) to plywood, and flex to the foam. There are also a few stretches where the foam is caulked directly to the thin steel of steel stud material positioned in the form of long through girder 'bridges.'
In operation, my quieter locomotives have stealth capabilities. Some of my older locos sound like meatgrinders, but that's the loco drive, not roadbed reverberation.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
Agreed...once the track is ballasted using normal bonded ballast methods, the noise returns. I know from experiance.
I used both WS Trackbed and cork, and once ballasted there is no (that I can tell) difference between the two in the noise level.
As an aside the quitest sections are the long bridges that are mounted on plywood instead of foam. They are nearly silent.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
Ok, so now I'm going to ask a stupid question.
Why not put at least some of the ballest down whay the latex caulk is still uncured? Put the ballest down and press it in, so it goes into the culk.
Sure, it will be spoty, in places, but that can be touched up later. For that matter, why not use a flexable adheasive - I don't know, but, I was wondering about rubber cement or simular adheasive, thinned down with ( I don't know ), maybe acetone or toluene ( careful with the toluene ) to hold the ballest in place.
Sperandeo wrote:The trick with this approach is that you have to also find a flexible adhesive for gluing ballast. If you use thinned white glue as in the typical bonded ballast method, you'll be back to having a rigid connection between the track and the foam subgrade, and it will be noisy again. Some think acrylic matte medium is more flexible than white glue, but I'm not convinced it'll make any difference. I'd say some further experimentation will be needed to maintain the low noise level with ballasted track.(For those interested, Ed Ravenscroft conducted experiments trying to find a silent tracklaying system that were described in the July 1949 "Model Railroader." See "Searching for silence," page 10. He was limited by the materials avaialble at that time, but he did identify the challenges of avoiding sound transmission with rigid track structures.)So long,Andy
Thanks Andy ! What about this glue sold at Walmart known as Aleene's "Tacky Glue"??????? I have a bottle of it here in my shop.The bottle is gold colored with white labelling, and says it dries clear and flexible.Anyone have any experience with it? How about you Andy?It says on the back of the bottle "water cleanup" so I assume you could thin it out with water.
Thanks!
Hey K4
I used the tacky glue mixed 2 parts glue 8 parts water on my ballast for a module and found it just like white glue but not as brittle. Yes its loud on the foam. But a modules environment is a lot different than a home layout.
Any other glue or thinner (acetone) might attack the foam. Stick with the water soluable glues. I have tried thinning clear latex caulk but did not get good results.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
locoi1sa wrote: Hey K4 I used the tacky glue mixed 2 parts glue 8 parts water on my ballast for a module and found it just like white glue but not as brittle. Yes its loud on the foam. But a modules environment is a lot different than a home layout. Any other glue or thinner (acetone) might attack the foam. Stick with the water soluable glues. I have tried thinning clear latex caulk but did not get good results. Pete
Okay, thanks for the info Pete.I have glued down my track to the roadbed with grey latex caulk, so there is a layer of caulk to put the ballast on.Would it still cause the noise to increase again?
Interresting info. Brings a couple of questions to mind.
1. If track on foam is noisier than track on plywood, does attaching the foam to plywood help deaden the sound?
2. Has anyone tried attaching a plywood subroadbed on top of foam? Does it help reduce the noise?
Then I suppose one could always paint the cork with Krylon or Rustoleum textured paint, stick it down with laytex caulk and call it good.
Thank you,
ARTHILL wrote:Standard warning on Gorilla glue, it is a polyuerathane and foams when it cures. The foam is VERY difficult to remove.
Exacto knife. Been there, done that. I still use it for some things. The key is to use it sparingly. Don't try to fill gaps with it.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
Greg H. wrote:It just occured to me, that there is a white fabric glue that might work, it's made to alow the fabric to remain flexable, after it has dried ( it dries clear ) - I'll have to check some frabric shops to see what the name or specific type might be.
Let us know what you find out Greg.Maybe I'll call a couple of fabric shops here and see if they know.
Ed
LNEFAN wrote:I have laid all my track (Peco) and roadbed (cork) on foam using caulk. I am very near the point of ballasting but have been aware of the noise problem using white glue etc. So I've hesitated (hmmm maybe procrastinated???). At any rate, before I begin I'm hoping someone will suggest a method that will minimize noise. Is there such a method out there?
I've read that matte medium is a better choice, but the old timers have used Elmers for years.
Joe
joe-daddy wrote: LNEFAN wrote:I have laid all my track (Peco) and roadbed (cork) on foam using caulk. I am very near the point of ballasting but have been aware of the noise problem using white glue etc. So I've hesitated (hmmm maybe procrastinated???). At any rate, before I begin I'm hoping someone will suggest a method that will minimize noise. Is there such a method out there?I've read that matte medium is a better choice, but the old timers have used Elmers for years.Joe
Hi Joe,I've read that also.So is matte medium available at a crafts or art supply store?There is a HOBBY LOBBY store in Ft Wayne that sales arts and crafts supplies, etc, and they also usually send me an email once a week with a discount coupon that can be used for anywhere from 15 to 40 percent off items in the store.Is there anyone else out there reading these posts that has any knowledge or ideas to share????
Thanks guys!Happy MRR'ing to all!
TheK4Kid wrote: joe-daddy wrote: LNEFAN wrote:I have laid all my track (Peco) and roadbed (cork) on foam using caulk. I am very near the point of ballasting but have been aware of the noise problem using white glue etc. So I've hesitated (hmmm maybe procrastinated???). At any rate, before I begin I'm hoping someone will suggest a method that will minimize noise. Is there such a method out there?I've read that matte medium is a better choice, but the old timers have used Elmers for years.Joe Hi Joe,I've read that also.So is matte medium available at a crafts or art supply store?There is a HOBBY LOBBY store in Ft Wayne that sales arts and crafts supplies, etc, and they also usually send me an email once a week with a discount coupon that can be used for anywhere from 15 to 40 percent off items in the store.Is there anyone else out there reading these posts that has any knowledge or ideas to share????Thanks guys!Happy MRR'ing to all!Ed
Ed,
Modge Podge is available at Michaels and I think that is what they are talking about. If I'm wrong we'll surely hear about in in the next post or two! :)
Ok, I was Hobby Lobby, and thought that I would check on the glue that they use to glue pieces of fabric together and is still flexable after it dries clear.
It's called ......... Flexable Fabric Glue.
Go figure. It's found in the fabric section near the bias tape and other sewless heming materials.
joe-daddy wrote: TheK4Kid wrote: joe-daddy wrote: LNEFAN wrote:I have laid all my track (Peco) and roadbed (cork) on foam using caulk. I am very near the point of ballasting but have been aware of the noise problem using white glue etc. So I've hesitated (hmmm maybe procrastinated???). At any rate, before I begin I'm hoping someone will suggest a method that will minimize noise. Is there such a method out there?I've read that matte medium is a better choice, but the old timers have used Elmers for years.Joe Hi Joe,I've read that also.So is matte medium available at a crafts or art supply store?There is a HOBBY LOBBY store in Ft Wayne that sales arts and crafts supplies, etc, and they also usually send me an email once a week with a discount coupon that can be used for anywhere from 15 to 40 percent off items in the store.Is there anyone else out there reading these posts that has any knowledge or ideas to share????Thanks guys!Happy MRR'ing to all!EdEd,Modge Podge is available at Michaels and I think that is what they are talking about. If I'm wrong we'll surely hear about in in the next post or two! :) Joe
Hi Joe,
I was in a Walmart today and they had the Modge Podge glue also.I didn't pick any up yet, thought I'd wait and see what comes up on this forum over the next few days.
Greg H. wrote:Ok, I was Hobby Lobby, and thought that I would check on the glue that they use to glue pieces of fabric together and is still flexable after it dries clear.It's called ......... Flexable Fabric Glue.Go figure. It's found in the fabric section near the bias tape and other sewless heming materials.
Thanks Greg,Next time I'm in Hobby Lobby, I'll check it out.Did you notice what kind of thickness it is?
Or if it can be thinned out and used in a spray bottle, or an eye dropper?
Thanks