hello there. Cant give ya much feed back as I am just starting on my own layout. I did do a small diarama that i used the woodland scenics roadbed. to me the cork was by far easier to put down as far as curves go. I had to notch the woodland scenics a bit to keep it from buckling on the inside of the curve. nothing major tho. Also, right now standard hobby has cork roadbed on sale for 18.99 for a 25 piece case of 3 foot lengths. Goodluck with whatever you decide.
Jake1210 wrote:Hi. One with my relentless questions. lol. I just wanna get everything right ya no? But I've been thinking, I've got pretty much everything about the layout down (well, except a track plan, lol.) and I was thinking since I have found so much good in layout construction other than WS (well I feel it is better for my givens & druthers, the Mod-U-Rail system could work very, very well for someone else) so I decided to look up some cork roadbed, and Midwest cork seems to have some very reasonable prices when bought from Cherry Creek Hobbies, 25 3' sections for 26 & 1/2 bucks? Sure!!! But, the WS track bed is $7.59 for 24 feet. Obviously way more expensive foot-by-foot. But who knows, it could be better. So I am asking you people what should I get? I know this is like asking what shoes should I buy, but I am asking that you list advantages and disadvantages for each you have used. (I.E If you have used only cork, list Pros & Cons of Cork, if you've used Track-Bed, list the Pros & Cons of TB, etc) As always help is appreciated! You guys are real life savers!!!
There are other similar threads on this topic. I went the WS route. I like working with the rolls and 12"x24" pieces in yards. Easy to work with, cut, fit and looks nice. Contrary to what some may say, it can be pulled up but you need a putty knife and go slow. I used yellow wood glue to put mine down. The cons are that it is a little soft (I personally don't mind) and some folks like that cork is slightly higher. Again I am fine with the height. You can beat the speed of laying down those 24' rolls. It is easy to lay on curves too. I find no real faults for my use.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
Thanks guys, while I still haven made a final decision, I'm still leaning towards cork because of how budget efficient it is, I want to start on this thing ASAP. Only becuase, A. Money Burns a Hole in my pocket, and B. Because I dont want to spend my money on something stupid because money burns a hole in my pocket!!!
At those prices, it appears that the WS is about 3 cents/ft cheaper, no?
Go with cork. WS is soft and spongy. It's loud, hard to ballast and a pain in the butt to smooth the shoulders down.
http://www.nhshobbies.com/category_s/134.htm
Check this place out for price. He's usually the cheapest on track and roadbed. Call him for a case price. Hans is a great guy to deal with.
Jake1210 wrote: cork seems to have some very reasonable prices when bought from Cherry Creek Hobbies, 25 3' sections for 26 & 1/2 bucks? Sure!!! But, the WS track bed is $7.59 for 24 feet. Obviously way more expensive foot-by-foot.
Huh?
$26.50 / 75 feet = 35-1/3 cents per foot for cork
$7.59 / 24 feet = 31 -5/8 cents per foot for WS.
I don't think that cork is more expensive. Personally I like the WS stuff, it goes down faster and with fewer seams. They both work. What ever you're used to will probably work best for you.
Karl
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net
larak wrote: Jake1210 wrote: cork seems to have some very reasonable prices when bought from Cherry Creek Hobbies, 25 3' sections for 26 & 1/2 bucks? Sure!!! But, the WS track bed is $7.59 for 24 feet. Obviously way more expensive foot-by-foot. Huh? $26.50 / 75 feet = 35-1/3 cents per foot for cork $7.59 / 24 feet = 31 -5/8 cents per foot for WS.I don't think that cork is more expensive. Personally I like the WS stuff, it goes down faster and with fewer seams. They both work. What ever you're used to will probably work best for you.Karl
Ya, I fudged up with that, that'll teach me to not do my math!
I'm still gonna stick woth cork though.
I plan to use the WS risers and grade units. I might use Midwest Cork where necessary. But it will be the rubberized roadbed that will probably go under my Kato Unitrack.
The traditional method of building wooden bridges for the old Cork is still valid today however the WS Riser system is so well done it's no longer necessary to consume all that wood.
You can use both the cork and the WS if it pleases you. When the scenery is completed around the track, no one knows if you got wood or WS under that roadbed.
The old school thought of laying cork on plywood or other surface involved constant checks of radius, track alignment, relaying, checking again etc etc etc.... with the WS stuff, you just flop the track down, peg the risers or whatever to the proper alignment and squirt glue and wait a day or two with weights stacked along the line. You can run miles of track in a evening's work.
loathar wrote: Go with cork. WS is soft and spongy. It's loud, hard to ballast and a pain in the butt to smooth the shoulders down.http://www.nhshobbies.com/category_s/134.htmCheck this place out for price. He's usually the cheapest on track and roadbed. Call him for a case price. Hans is a great guy to deal with.
Agreed that it is spongy but I've had no problems with ballast. I use real stone from Arizona Rock & Mineral. As for loud, how can foam be loud ? I've not had that experience and would wonder how foam can be loud.
The same way a very large O scale engine can set the entire home to humming/viberating when drumming on straight plywood. Or tracks setting directly on the floor.
If you have something to soak it up Cork or Rubber will do it. Sometimes Ive put rubber pads under the legs or casters of the layout to further dampen the "Army ant march" from spreading to the rest of the room.
Safety Valve wrote: The same way a very large O scale engine can set the entire home to humming/viberating when drumming on straight plywood. Or tracks setting directly on the floor.If you have something to soak it up Cork or Rubber will do it. Sometimes Ive put rubber pads under the legs or casters of the layout to further dampen the "Army ant march" from spreading to the rest of the room.
It's cushiony foam between the track and the subroadbed. It deadens sound not transfers it. You hit it with a hammer it makes no noise other than the sound of the hammer and the hammer is quiter. I've heard folks claim it gets louder with ballast. That could be the sound resonating through the ballast (which is stiffer and glued) to the subroadbed. That would be a ballasting issue, not an issue with the foam roadbed.
jbinkley60 wrote: loathar wrote: Go with cork. WS is soft and spongy. It's loud, hard to ballast and a pain in the butt to smooth the shoulders down.http://www.nhshobbies.com/category_s/134.htmCheck this place out for price. He's usually the cheapest on track and roadbed. Call him for a case price. Hans is a great guy to deal with.Agreed that it is spongy but I've had no problems with ballast. I use real stone from Arizona Rock & Mineral. As for loud, how can foam be loud ? I've not had that experience and would wonder how foam can be loud.
I've got a length of mainline that's 1/2 WS and 1/2 cork. The train sounds nice and quite when it's on the cork. As soon as it hits the WS foam the sound from the train gets louder. Like the foam amplifies the sound somehow. I thought ballasting might help, but it only made it worse. I've had problems with my ballast not wanting to stay put too because the glue doesn't soak into it. I just REALLY dislike that stuff and I'm sorry I used the little bit that I did.
Loco wrote:I was thinking (it happens ;) If one where to try and do a bit of super elevating, would not the WS foam be useless???
I used WS foam on 2inch pink foam, used white glue to attach the WS foam roadbed, then grey latex caulk to attach the rail to the WS foam roadbed.
I tried laying down a 10 foot stretch of track with coark roadbed, although the cork wasn't glued down, I layed a ten foot stretch of track, without any glue,etc.
Then I ran one of my steam engines ( HO) on the cork test section, then tried the same on my
WS foam which is a complete loop around( first mainline) a 24 foot long by 6 foot wide walkround layout, built up from 3 - 6 foot by 8 foot tables, with 1x3's every 16 inches, and 1x4 sides.
The cork section ( unballasted and not glued down, just layed on the cork, and the cork just layed on the 2 inch foam base) was much quieter.
But I am thinking of trying something once I get all my wiring and under table work done.
Taking and putting fiberglass insulation( like you use in between wall studs when insulating a room) stuffed up under the table in between the 1x3's to absorb sound. I won't permanently attach it, but perhaps just tack it in place with either DUCK TAPE, or something similar.
That way if I need to work under the table, just pull the insulation down and lay it out of the way.
I am thinking this will absorb sound, and eliminate the drum board effect.
As far as super elevation, I super elevated both my ends of my layout ( 34 inch radius) by using 1/8 inch wide by 1/16 inch thick balsa strips, and using Elmers white glues. layed down a bead of glue, and using modelleres pins, pinned them in place so they would be underneath the outside of the track ties,raising the outside of the track by 1/16 of an inch, then when that dried, I attached my track with grey latex caulk.
Works just fine
TheK4Kid
No, WS isn't that soft. It is dense foam. I use styrene shims under the outside rail. It works fine.
Jake, I don't know your geographic location, but here in the dessicated desert cork has a rather limited lifetime before it dries out, hardens up and begins to crumble.
I have been using thin extruded foam (fan-fold underlayment) for roadbed, fastened to the plywood subgrade with latex caulk. It takes a little work to carve 2 x 4 sheets of foam into roadbed shapes, but once in place it seems to be dead silent. My quieter locomotives seem to have acquired stealth capabilities.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I have a question.I am using WS foam roadbed, my last track loop is fastened to the subroadbed with Elmers white glue. Is there a possibility it would be quieter if I used latex caulk to fasten it to the 2 inch foam subroadbed, or should continue to use Elmers white flue?I am curious if it will be a little queter if I use latex caulk instead of glue to fasten down the WS foam roadbed.The track is fastened down with grey latex caulk.My other idea is to try and put fiberglass insulation underneath my tables between the 1x3's which are on 16 inch center after all my wiring, etc is done under the table and make the insulation removable by just placing it in place and using some DUCK TAPE to hold it in place. I am curious if the fiberglass insulation will soak up a lot of the sound board effect I am getting now.Everything I read said that WS foam would be quieter or is quieter than using cork
It seems that when my trains are running, I am getting more noise through the foam than I should be.I figure it can't hurt to try, if it doesn't work, the fiberglass insulation can go overhead in the rafters .
Anyone have any opinions?
tomikawaTT wrote: Jake, I don't know your geographic location, but here in the dessicated desert cork has a rather limited lifetime before it dries out, hardens up and begins to crumble.I have been using thin extruded foam (fan-fold underlayment) for roadbed, fastened to the plywood subgrade with latex caulk. It takes a little work to carve 2 x 4 sheets of foam into roadbed shapes, but once in place it seems to be dead silent. My quieter locomotives seem to have acquired stealth capabilities.Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I dont think I need to worry about that all the way in SE Massachusettes.
TheK4Kid wrote: I have a question.I am using WS foam roadbed, my last track loop is fastened to the subroadbed with Elmers white glue. Is there a possibility it would be quieter if I used latex caulk to fasten it to the 2 inch foam subroadbed, or should continue to use Elmers white flue?I am curious if it will be a little queter if I use latex caulk instead of glue to fasten down the WS foam roadbed.The track is fastened down with grey latex caulk.My other idea is to try and put fiberglass insulation underneath my tables between the 1x3's which are on 16 inch center after all my wiring, etc is done under the table and make the insulation removable by just placing it in place and using some DUCK TAPE to hold it in place. I am curious if the fiberglass insulation will soak up a lot of the sound board effect I am getting now.Everything I read said that WS foam would be quieter or is quieter than using corkIt seems that when my trains are running, I am getting more noise through the foam than I should be.I figure it can't hurt to try, if it doesn't work, the fiberglass insulation can go overhead in the rafters .Anyone have any opinions? TheK4Kid
I am thinking that any noise might be coming from the 2" foam acting like a resonator. I use 1/2" plywood with WS foam and it is very quiet. I don't think it is the glue. I use yellow glue. How is the 2" foam secured to your 1x3s ?
Hi Engineer Jeff,
I used a product known as "Loctite Power Grab" I purchased at Menards. It's similar to Liquid Nails.
I put a bead of Loctite Power Grab on the 1x3's and layed down the 2 inch pink foam on top of the 1x3's and let it dryMy framework is quite sturdy.Right now my tables ( 3 of them, 6 by 8 feet), are setting on a concrete floor,but I plan on using indoor-outdoor carpet with a thick foam base under them, and I figure that will also help quiet it down a bit.
My tables are 1x3's on 16 inch centers, and outside framework is 1x4's , all screwed and glued together with woodscrews and Locttite Power Grab.My legs are made from 2x4's with cross bracing, and fastened on with bolts. At the bottom of my 2x4 legs are adjustabe screw pads for height and leveling adjument. I may try the insulation underneath just to see what happens, if it doesn't work, I will use it in my overhead rafters, since my layout is in the basement, and right now, all I have is bare concrete floor and walls around my walkaround layout, and at this point there really isn't any sound absorbent materials around the layout to abosrb sound.
As I recall, I did use yellow carpenters glue to fasten down the WS foam roadbed to the 2 inch pink foam tabletop, and not white Elmers glue. Has anyone else used this method, and what are your results?
TheK4Kid wrote: Hi Engineer Jeff, I used a product known as "Loctite Power Grab" I purchased at Menards. It's similar to Liquid Nails. I put a bead of Loctite Power Grab on the 1x3's and layed down the 2 inch pink foam on top of the 1x3's and let it dryMy framework is quite sturdy.Right now my tables ( 3 of them, 6 by 8 feet), are setting on a concrete floor,but I plan on using indoor-outdoor carpet with a thick foam base under them, and I figure that will also help quiet it down a bit.My tables are 1x3's on 16 inch centers, and outside framework is 1x4's , all screwed and glued together with woodscrews and Locttite Power Grab.My legs are made from 2x4's with cross bracing, and fastened on with bolts. At the bottom of my 2x4 legs are adjustabe screw pads for height and leveling adjument. I may try the insulation underneath just to see what happens, if it doesn't work, I will use it in my overhead rafters, since my layout is in the basement, and right now, all I have is bare concrete floor and walls around my walkaround layout, and at this point there really isn't any sound absorbent materials around the layout to abosrb sound.As I recall, I did use yellow carpenters glue to fasten down the WS foam roadbed to the 2 inch pink foam tabletop, and not white Elmers glue. Has anyone else used this method, and what are your results? TheK4Kid
An option may be that the 2" foam is not as rigid as 1/2" plywood and is reasonating due to the vibrations. That would amplify the sound. That's the best idea I can come up with right now. One way to find out is to add a brace across one of the 16" spans under the track and glue it to the foam. If it gets quieter then you know that's the cause. The cork may provide more support and is more rigid than the WS foam which helps dampen the resonance.
Thanks for the reply Engineer Jeff, but that is not the problem. The foam is quite rigid with the 1x3's under it. As I lay my secod inside mainline, I will try a slghtly different method for attaching the WS foam roadbed to the foam.
Once my undertable work is done, I will fill the spaces with fiberglass insulation held in place with some kind of tape, so I can take it down to work if I need to .
I am going to put some rubber or foam washers where the elg bolts attach, and see if isolating the legs helps any.Also will try rubber mats or something under the legs between the adjuster screws and the floor.
TheK4Kid wrote: Thanks for the reply Engineer Jeff, but that is not the problem. The foam is quite rigid with the 1x3's under it. As I lay my secod inside mainline, I will try a slghtly different method for attaching the WS foam roadbed to the foam.Once my undertable work is done, I will fill the spaces with fiberglass insulation held in place with some kind of tape, so I can take it down to work if I need to .I am going to put some rubber or foam washers where the elg bolts attach, and see if isolating the legs helps any.Also will try rubber mats or something under the legs between the adjuster screws and the floor.TheK4Kid
Ok, I'll be curious as to the outcome. Just remember that even if the foam is rigid, it is still a big flat surface that can resonate. Plywood can too but one of the things which helps is that the layers each go different direction. As example, a solid piece of wood with the grain all in one direction will resonate more (assuming the same dimensions) that an equivalent [piece of plywood. If you've ever done any speaker design bracing of long side of a cabinet is very important. This is no different. Again, only a theory. I'll be curious to find out how foam can appear to be louder than cork.
If I may sugesst a different idea. I used N cork under my HO track in spots where it wasn't seen. In tunnels I used Camper tape which was about 6-7 dollars at HD. It's sticky on one side.
I am using 1/2 OSB board and 1" foam for the base with mostly cork as the road bed and the house is air conditioned and low humidty year round.
I used a hot glue gun to set the cork with a few short sections about 1/2 to 1 in about every 1 to 2 feet. More if I was doing a curve just enough to hold the shape. I would then slide in the second side and again glue a spot every once in a while to hold it. The track got a short dab of glue to hold it in place usually one/two ties and check with a ribbon rail and set the curve or straight edge for staight line.
I would run a couple of cars along the rail and observe anything that looked out of place like a wobble or derail. Turn the power on and test an engine or two to see if power(DC) was ok. A short hit with cheap brown spray (99cents from Wally World) on the rails and I could ballast any section I want along the way to really set the track. I could lay 2-3 or more 3 ft sections at a time. I would before completing the ballast go back and add feeder lines for future DCC ops as I wanted. This way I could run a train around or a least think I could while I was planning where things were going.
Mistakes, sure I made a few and because it wasn't held down but by a couple of glue spots a kitchen steak knife would slip under the track or cork and cut through the glue. I could then reuse or if it was beyond saving throw away a short section of track after I cut it with a dremel.
As to the N scale cork I used, that on most all of the branch lines and it lowers the rail a slight bit from the main. I just placed the cork the width of the rails which leaves a section down the middle to be either filled in or if you're lazy like me I just spread some oil dry material (Wally World $3 or so) and carefully would make sure it was below the ties and balast over the top. Heck I think I even paint it too. A lot less work and no one will ever see it.
It's your road----have fun with it.
jbinkley60 wrote: TheK4Kid wrote: Thanks for the reply Engineer Jeff, but that is not the problem. The foam is quite rigid with the 1x3's under it. As I lay my secod inside mainline, I will try a slghtly different method for attaching the WS foam roadbed to the foam.Once my undertable work is done, I will fill the spaces with fiberglass insulation held in place with some kind of tape, so I can take it down to work if I need to .I am going to put some rubber or foam washers where the elg bolts attach, and see if isolating the legs helps any.Also will try rubber mats or something under the legs between the adjuster screws and the floor.TheK4Kid Ok, I'll be curious as to the outcome. Just remember that even if the foam is rigid, it is still a big flat surface that can resonate. Plywood can too but one of the things which helps is that the layers each go different direction. As example, a solid piece of wood with the grain all in one direction will resonate more (assuming the same dimensions) that an equivalent [piece of plywood. If you've ever done any speaker design bracing of long side of a cabinet is very important. This is no different. Again, only a theory. I'll be curious to find out how foam can appear to be louder than cork.
Good point Engineer Jeff.
I am thinking of any solutions I can.One of the main reasons I used this table construction method is it is light and can be taken down and moved easily if need be.If I were to brace in between underneath, I just don't understand how that would change anything.I could brace at an angle, or go at 90 degrees to the existing 1x3's
Or lay another set of 1x3's flat across the bottoms of the existing ones, then screw them in place. Perhaps two or three on the bottom of each table?
The idea I was originally thinking of using fiberglass batting insulation was that it would eliminate the empty space between the 1x3's and soak up the sound.I'm still open to any other ideas or suggestions.Your theory sounds good though and I understand where you are coming from on it.
I resarched all of this before I started and saw this same method used on other layouts, but no mention of noise was ever brought forth.