IMHO, the OP has asked a perfectly legitimate question.
When we prepare our layout plans, we put all the emphasize on the track plan, whereas scenery is usually treated as a stepchild. Scenery is much more than what fills the space not covered by track. Special care has to be exercised when it comes to slopes, dips, cuts and ravines. They usually require much more space than we figure.
A good layout plan does not only consider operation, but it is designed with scenery in mind. That´s why I usually prepare quite detailed drawings, just for me to visualize scenic possibilities.
Like this:
... or this:
Sir Madog IMHO, the OP has asked a perfectly legitimate question.
Oh, it's a perfectly legitimate question, but a perfectly legitimate response is to roll up your sleeves and experiment a little, give it a try, make some mistakes, and learn from your mistakes.
Otherwise, it becomes a matter of paralysis by analysis.
Rich
Alton Junction
Paul--
But once again, you're stuck in the precision construction mindset. Yes, if you're building a fighter jet or a submarine, you have a detailed drawing (a metric butt-ton of them, actually) that shows you step by step every little detail that you need to do. But that's not what you're doing. Ever seen the guys design these things? I once watched a designer spend almost two full shifts at a CAD terminal trying to route a pipe through a given space without too many bends. Do you think he spend all that time just making pretty lines? He tried and failed about 20 different times before he got it to work.......
Gidday Paul,
As a follow on to CTValleyRR story, I've been presented with a drawing which while it looked great on paper required a bionic hand and X-ray vision to fit in the aircraft, it was impossible even if there had been enough room to fit the item we would have had to de-skin part of the fuse and the wing spar web. Not a goer. What happened was that I did, following the designers parameters, install the item where it could be easily accessed, then the installation drawings were drawn, and approved. That scenaro happened on several occasions.
So what I am endorsing is...
,
richhotrain Paul, here is what we want to see from you. Get some of the basic materials to build a mountain, or a cliff, or a waterfall, and just do it. If it looks like crap, so be it. Take photos along the way and post them when you are finished, not before. Don't ask any questions along the way. Just do it. Just build it. Then, submit the photo sequence of your masterpiece. That is your assignment. You have one week to complete it. A week from tomorrow, we want to see photos. That gives you two weekends. Get going. Rich
Paul, here is what we want to see from you.
Get some of the basic materials to build a mountain, or a cliff, or a waterfall, and just do it. If it looks like crap, so be it. Take photos along the way and post them when you are finished, not before. Don't ask any questions along the way. Just do it. Just build it. Then, submit the photo sequence of your masterpiece.
That is your assignment. You have one week to complete it. A week from tomorrow, we want to see photos. That gives you two weekends. Get going.
...........Richs' advise. After only 25 years in the same game I relish the freedom of model railroading.
I make a mistake in the train room, so what, re do it, does it annoy me, if I'm honest yes, but was it life threatening , NO!!!
So relax, have a go, join in and have Fun.
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
richhotrain Sir Madog IMHO, the OP has asked a perfectly legitimate question. Oh, it's a perfectly legitimate question, but a perfectly legitimate response is to roll up your sleeves and experiment a little, give it a try, make some mistakes, and learn from your mistakes. Otherwise, it becomes a matter of paralysis by analysis. Rich
There is something to what you say, Rich. After all, a plan is a plan, nothing but a plan.
Well, I'm doing it. It takes time but I'm doing it. For you guys who have been at it for a while you have all the stuff you need. I'm still aquiring it. I have a 22 mile drive to the hobby store one way and he doesn't always have what I need so he has to order it.
So I build a structure here (so I can finish laying track), build a piece of rolling stock here, lay track where I can and test it out and tweak it with trains running, and basically have a to do list.
Like I said as an example, I can't finish laying the track under the mining company till it's painted, I couldn't paint it till I got the paint, I just got the paint yesterday.
I have to cut into the foam under some existing track to make a ravine for a river and build a trestle bridge over the curved track. Building the bridge with the bents will be easy but getting the foam cut will be a little bit of a challenge. I can do it though.
I had to send the 44 ton GE switcher back to Bachman and I hope they come through for me. I had to fix a Baldwin VO-1000 because all wheels were working but one was dead electrically. No idea how because there's only one wire to the bus bar for the truck! But it's fixed.
It's like I'm trying to do 20 million things at once and am on hold for 99% of them for one reason or another.
I'm doing it though and I don't think I have paraylis by analysis, just waiting for materials. So in the meantime I like to ask questions. This is how I like to learn, by asking questions. Some of the questions are out of simple curiosity, some are for help.
Paul_in_GA I have a 22 mile drive to the hobby store one way and he doesn't always have what I need so he has to order it.
I have a 22 mile drive to the hobby store one way and he doesn't always have what I need so he has to order it.
Oh boy, been there, done that.
Paul_in_GA I'm doing it though and I don't think I have paraylis by analysis, just waiting for materials. So in the meantime I like to ask questions. This is how I like to learn, by asking questions. Some of the questions are out of simple curiosity, some are for help.
Not saying you do, just a comment from my own experience that you can only think about something for so long, then you just gotta do it. Not you personally, I am referring to anyone and every one.
Here's what my son and I have done so far at least with the learning kit. I see him only every other weekend so it'll be done in a couple of weeks.
Well, hellfire, as one of my clients used to say.
That looks pretty darn good.
Paul, you are a lot further along than you think you are.
Nice work.
That´s darn good work.
Did you say you were a newbie?
richhotrain Paul_in_GA I'm doing it though and I don't think I have paraylis by analysis, just waiting for materials. So in the meantime I like to ask questions. This is how I like to learn, by asking questions. Some of the questions are out of simple curiosity, some are for help. Not saying you do, just a comment from my own experience that you can only think about something for so long, then you just gotta do it. Not you personally, I am referring to anyone and every one. Rich
Well, Paul, I do have to say that from the tone of many of your posts, it doesn't sound like you're asking questions about the hobby while you wait for materials to arrive. (And in a side note, you posted elsewhere about all the stuff you do have, and it doesn't look like you're missing any essentials). But really, your posts sound like you're agonizing over how to do things that you've never done before and can't visualize how to do. So please forgive us if we seem pushy. Because in this hobby, there's no substitute for experience, especially the kind that's earned the hard way -- through trial and error. So when you ask for information (or help) in a way that sounds like you've reached paralysis by analysis, don't be surprised when the bulk of the advice you receive is variations on "Just Do It".
I'm also a bit baffled by your difficulty in obtaining supplies. Is the hobby shop 22 miles a way, or a couple hours (although these conditions aren't necessarily contradictory)? I commute 24 miles one way every day, and have four good hobby shops within that radius. I also make extensive use of the Internet for buying stuff. So what seems like an issue to you is something I take in stride. That said, I frequently have to pause in projects and get some materials, but since I have so many other demands on my time -- other MR projects, other hobbies, Scouting, and work -- that it's really not an issue.
But really, a hobby is supposed to be fun. If it is, as it sounds like, a source of stress and anxiety, then perhaps you should find a different one. No one wants a newcomer to succeed more than I do. I mean that. But I also don't want to force someone into a hobby that doesn't suit him just because it happens to be one of my passions.
BTW, Paul, do you know that there are clinics at train shows where you can learn some of this stuff? You can also watch "how to" demonstrations by many exhibitors. Your LHS might also offer something similar. You can also, as someone suggested above, build dioramas to hone your skills (I've done many in my day).
So, to return to the thread (and yes, Ulrich, it WAS a legitimate question, but couched in terms that suggested Paul thought it was impossible for him) you have to have a fairly firm handle on your requirements. If you want to build a ravine 100 scale feet deep, you need about 14" of vertical clearance to do it. For a river at the bottom, you need a flat spot a little wider than you want the river to be. That detail has to be built into your layout somehow, either by cutting through your base or elevating your tracks, and yes, you should cover that in your layout design, although you CAN simply take your Sawzall to the plywood later. Then, you need a framework that governs the basic shape. Then you need a hardshell on that framework. After that, you add the large rock forms, and finally fill in with little details. Small ledges, crevasses, streams and waterfalls, vegetation. This last stuff doesn't have to be planned in, but can be added with minor alterations. Once, while modifying my layout, I removed a road and filled in some rocky formations near the tracks using Sculptamold, leaving a meandering flat spot where the road had been. Looking at it, I realized that with a couple more dabs of Sculptamold at a couple of spots on the on the rock face, I could create a nice little waterfall dropping into a reed-lined pond, with a lazy creek flowing out of it. Voila! Instant scenery element, inspired by inadvertently building a place for it as I changed my layout.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Paul_in_GA Here's what my son and I have done so far at least with the learning kit. I see him only every other weekend so it'll be done in a couple of weeks. [Pix deleted for space considerations]
[Pix deleted for space considerations]
See, Paul, this is actually very good work, especially for someone who's only been in the hobby for a couple of months. You should be able to apply these same techniques to your layout with great success.
richhotrain Well, hellfire, as one of my clients used to say. That looks pretty darn good. Paul, you are a lot further along than you think you are. Nice work. Rich
Thanks Rich and thanks to all of you who have replied. I'm pretty pleased with it and it's just a learning kit.
CTValleyRR richhotrain Paul_in_GA I'm doing it though and I don't think I have paraylis by analysis, just waiting for materials. So in the meantime I like to ask questions. This is how I like to learn, by asking questions. Some of the questions are out of simple curiosity, some are for help. Not saying you do, just a comment from my own experience that you can only think about something for so long, then you just gotta do it. Not you personally, I am referring to anyone and every one. Rich Well, Paul, I do have to say that from the tone of many of your posts, it doesn't sound like you're asking questions about the hobby while you wait for materials to arrive. (And in a side note, you posted elsewhere about all the stuff you do have, and it doesn't look like you're missing any essentials). But really, your posts sound like you're agonizing over how to do things that you've never done before and can't visualize how to do. So please forgive us if we seem pushy. Because in this hobby, there's no substitute for experience, especially the kind that's earned the hard way -- through trial and error. So when you ask for information (or help) in a way that sounds like you've reached paralysis by analysis, don't be surprised when the bulk of the advice you receive is variations on "Just Do It". I'm also a bit baffled by your difficulty in obtaining supplies. Is the hobby shop 22 miles a way, or a couple hours (although these conditions aren't necessarily contradictory)? I commute 24 miles one way every day, and have four good hobby shops within that radius. I also make extensive use of the Internet for buying stuff. So what seems like an issue to you is something I take in stride. That said, I frequently have to pause in projects and get some materials, but since I have so many other demands on my time -- other MR projects, other hobbies, Scouting, and work -- that it's really not an issue. But really, a hobby is supposed to be fun. If it is, as it sounds like, a source of stress and anxiety, then perhaps you should find a different one. No one wants a newcomer to succeed more than I do. I mean that. But I also don't want to force someone into a hobby that doesn't suit him just because it happens to be one of my passions. BTW, Paul, do you know that there are clinics at train shows where you can learn some of this stuff? You can also watch "how to" demonstrations by many exhibitors. Your LHS might also offer something similar. You can also, as someone suggested above, build dioramas to hone your skills (I've done many in my day). So, to return to the thread (and yes, Ulrich, it WAS a legitimate question, but couched in terms that suggested Paul thought it was impossible for him) you have to have a fairly firm handle on your requirements. If you want to build a ravine 100 scale feet deep, you need about 14" of vertical clearance to do it. For a river at the bottom, you need a flat spot a little wider than you want the river to be. That detail has to be built into your layout somehow, either by cutting through your base or elevating your tracks, and yes, you should cover that in your layout design, although you CAN simply take your Sawzall to the plywood later. Then, you need a framework that governs the basic shape. Then you need a hardshell on that framework. After that, you add the large rock forms, and finally fill in with little details. Small ledges, crevasses, streams and waterfalls, vegetation. This last stuff doesn't have to be planned in, but can be added with minor alterations. Once, while modifying my layout, I removed a road and filled in some rocky formations near the tracks using Sculptamold, leaving a meandering flat spot where the road had been. Looking at it, I realized that with a couple more dabs of Sculptamold at a couple of spots on the on the rock face, I could create a nice little waterfall dropping into a reed-lined pond, with a lazy creek flowing out of it. Voila! Instant scenery element, inspired by inadvertently building a place for it as I changed my layout.
Well, I'm having fun. Sometimes I get frustrated because I have to wait for one thing to come in the mail. And yes, the hobby store is 22 miles away but it's a two hour round trip because of traffic.
As for shows, well we have one coming up in Warner Robbins which is a butt TON load of miles south of me. I'm stuck out here in the boonies with a long drive to the hobby shop, waiting on the mail, and no one else around that does this hobby (as far as I know). My wife even suggested putting a post on Craig's List looking for people in this area who do it but I said no way, there's a lot of psychos on Craig's List now. It's not like it used to be.
I was asking questions about the hobby while waiting for stuff to arrive. Questions like cross sections and elevated drawings, things like that, just basic knowledge.
Today I painted the mining company aluminum and I want to wait till tomorrow before it's totally dry. I used enamel spray. THEN, I have to scrape out the channels where the glue will go. Not many but enough that it will require time to do.
In the meantime I can start on another structure which will be painted by hand except for the roof which needs to be airbrushed (which I need to practice on). The kit is the Salida Coal co. I spoke to the owner of the company the other day for about 90 minutes. He told me how he made the kits (they're Hydrocal) and about the real actual building that's still standing. But get this, in the kits it came with some strips of fine black sandpaper and I THOUGHT it was for sanding the Hydrocal joints but it's actually ROOFING material! LOL!!
It's a VERY detailed kit and authentic down to the minutest detail. He's gonna send me some of the real-world photos he took of it.
So while the paint was drying today I washed and waxed the Vette. Nice.
As for my river, well, I have three inches of pink foam on the "sacred sheet" 4 x 8. I plan on cutting into it all the way down to the plywood and first making the embankments which are Chooch stone ones. Then I have to build the bridge with wood stock I bought and mitre them as this will be on a curve. Then I have to glue the stock to the bents and place it in the river bed. They're real wood and already stained, they look nice. Then I have to cut and shape the river itself. All this UNDER existing track that is laid but not glued in that basic area.
So you see, I have been busy.
Cheers. Paul.
Paul, the really critical part, if you are inclined to use your career experience, is getting the track system to work well. Otherwise, it isn't a model railroad. So, the finnicky part is ensuring your clearances over the rails when you have an overpass, or that your grades are reasonable, your curves work for the trains, and that the cars and locomotives won't come off the rails on curves because you don't have level or even roadbed...the rails wobble.
Everything else on the space is a guesstimate, a vision, an idea or six, and a rough idea of what their footprint will be. How will you orient them, at what level above mean grade level on the layout, and what type of doable rails will allow access? Literally, you stand, staring down at nothing in the space, and you imagine a mountain so big, so wide, right about here....or maybe over there.
I recommend using 3/4" masking tape to mark out your track plan in 2-D. Mark the edges of the space/layout frame, too. You can use a length of lath to mock up a grade where you think it should start, and see what kind of clearance you have where one track crosses another. You can create a mock-up of a mountain made of hot-glued strips of cardboard and place it where you think it would work. Paint up the portals and see if you need to adjust your rail tape.
Eventually you will build an image which forms the basis of your plan. You might even be able to use that cardboard hill after all, but add to it, or cover it with some foam chunks and plaster.
Plan to fail. At least the first time, assume you won't like what you create, or that it will be the wrong idea entirely. Prepare to modify your idea as you go. Most of us do that, even with careful plans, detailed ones. They are inevitable, those changes. You break something and place a patch or insert, cover it up with sculptamold or drywall mud, and then glue and sprinkle ground foam. Later, the eyes won't remember what is below the nice landscape.
Crandell
selector Paul, the really critical part, if you are inclined to use your career experience, is getting the track system to work well. Otherwise, it isn't a model railroad. So, the finnicky part is ensuring your clearances over the rails when you have an overpass, or that your grades are reasonable, your curves work for the trains, and that the cars and locomotives won't come off the rails on curves because you don't have level or even roadbed...the rails wobble. Everything else on the space is a guesstimate, a vision, an idea or six, and a rough idea of what their footprint will be. How will you orient them, at what level above mean grade level on the layout, and what type of doable rails will allow access? Literally, you stand, staring down at nothing in the space, and you imagine a mountain so big, so wide, right about here....or maybe over there. I recommend using 3/4" masking tape to mark out your track plan in 2-D. Mark the edges of the space/layout frame, too. You can use a length of lath to mock up a grade where you think it should start, and see what kind of clearance you have where one track crosses another. You can create a mock-up of a mountain made of hot-glued strips of cardboard and place it where you think it would work. Paint up the portals and see if you need to adjust your rail tape. Eventually you will build an image which forms the basis of your plan. You might even be able to use that cardboard hill after all, but add to it, or cover it with some foam chunks and plaster. Plan to fail. At least the first time, assume you won't like what you create, or that it will be the wrong idea entirely. Prepare to modify your idea as you go. Most of us do that, even with careful plans, detailed ones. They are inevitable, those changes. You break something and place a patch or insert, cover it up with sculptamold or drywall mud, and then glue and sprinkle ground foam. Later, the eyes won't remember what is below the nice landscape. Crandell
Thanks again Crandell. I will floow everyone's advice. This is imagination at work and not detailed schematics. I have to create, to see in my mind's eye what I want. Imagine myself there I guess...
Paul:
Tom Oxnard's article is really worth reading. He details his thought process and the changes in his plan as the project went along. It really deytails the construction process. I found it very interesting to see how someone else approaches a scenery project.
Joe
JoeinPA Paul: Tom Oxnard's article is really worth reading. He details his thought process and the changes in his plan as the project went along. It really deytails the construction process. I found it very interesting to see how someone else approaches a scenery project. Joe
Ok Joe, I'll bite, where can I find said article?
Thanks.
It's the article you started this thread about
JoeinPA Paul: It's the article you started this thread about Joe
Duh! My bad, thanks. I have so many books and magazines now they're coming out my ears.
Paul_in_GA JoeinPA Paul: It's the article you started this thread about Joe Duh! My bad, thanks. I have so many books and magazines now they're coming out my ears.
Paralysis by readanalysis !
richhotrain Paul_in_GA JoeinPA Paul: It's the article you started this thread about Joe Duh! My bad, thanks. I have so many books and magazines now they're coming out my ears. Paralysis by readanalysis !
LOL! I'll get it done Rich. Rome wasn't constructed in a 24 hour time period.
It may take me longer but I'll get it done. I'm not stopping.
You all have about done this topic til its toast.................
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
selector Plan to fail. At least the first time, assume you won't like what you create, or that it will be the wrong idea entirely. Prepare to modify your idea as you go. Most of us do that, even with careful plans, detailed ones. They are inevitable, those changes. You break something and place a patch or insert, cover it up with sculptamold or drywall mud, and then glue and sprinkle ground foam. Later, the eyes won't remember what is below the nice landscape. Crandell
Sheesh. I would HATE to have anyone see what's under some parts of my layout. Last week I drilled a hole in the hardshell for a tree, and a piece of newspaper came up on the drill bit. This in a spot that I would have sworn was made of Sculptamold over foam board. Probably some old plaster cloth down there as well.
FWIW, I'm on my 3rd major modification to my second layout since restarting the hobby a dozen years ago. The river on this one has been redone three, maybe four times. I'm still not sure I like it, but it'll do until I get some other parts done.
Crandall's right, though. The only place you need perfection is in your trackwork.
mobilman44 You all have about done this topic til its toast.................
No we haven't. Not until Paul either has an operating layout or gives up!
CTValleyRR mobilman44 You all have about done this topic til its toast................. No we haven't. Not until Paul either has an operating layout or gives up!
Well I have an "operating" layout sans scenery. I can run trains and spot cars on sidings where the businesses will be. So when I need a little fix I run trains. It's fun, except when they derail because I didn't have the points set right.
Paul_in_GA Well I have an "operating" layout sans scenery. I can run trains and spot cars on sidings where the businesses will be. So when I need a little fix I run trains. It's fun, except when they derail because I didn't have the points set right.
Paul, that is known as "operator error". That is what turns model railroading into sport.
Incidentally, you are the first person in the history of model railroading to commit that particular error.
richhotrain Paul_in_GA Well I have an "operating" layout sans scenery. I can run trains and spot cars on sidings where the businesses will be. So when I need a little fix I run trains. It's fun, except when they derail because I didn't have the points set right. Paul, that is known as "operator error". That is what turns model railroading into sport. Incidentally, you are the first person in the history of model railroading to commit that particular error. Rich
Yup, I know it. But I don't care, I just put it back on the rails and TRY to remember the proper point setting. I'm getting there.
Man, the first person in history? That's a cool achievement!
LOL!!!
In all seriousness, I would bet that the most recurring error in model railroading is settting the pont rails in the wrong direction or forgetting to return them to their normal position.
Hey, one of us should start a thread in that regard, so I think I will.
Dear Paul & Friends
It was in these forums that I learned the phrase "analysis to paralysis," and I had/have it. I put off building my son's model railroad for at least eighteen months because I couldn't figure out how to get started. All of the essential skills are things I've never done or haven't done in nearly thirty years.
Benchwork scares me, so I pussed out and bought a used ping-pong table in July of 2011. I think I laid the first piece of track about three months ago. I have close to 400 files on my computer from RailModeller, a Mac track design application, and ended up going with a simple double oval with the outer oval having an incline.
Paul, you got busy right away and are kicking major butt on that learning kit. Way to go! I spent six hours today finessing just the part of my son's layout that will go under his mountain tunnel. So much of that time was in testing--running trains both ways on two loops at three speed settings to iron out derailments.
But tomorrow is the day I finally get to tack down the cardboard strips I ordered from Micro-Mark two years ago.
Analysis to paralysis. I'm that guy.
--Jaddie