First, I am certain that this is not the first time this has been discussed. But, I would like to hear from folks about the subject (possibly again). If you think that I am beating a dead horse, please be kind enough and have the good manners not to express your negative opinions.
My layout will have about 120 feet of mainline. It is a point to point layout with staging at each end. I have about 30% of the mainline installed (but that includes part of the main yard. I have tried to make it single track with 2 long passing sidings already built. I will run N&W Y6b's, J's, and A's. Coal trains with about 18 cars and a caboose. I have not decided about the rest of the mainline. That is whether or not to single or double track it. My layout is based on the N&W's Pocahontas Division in the fall of 1958. The line was, of course double tracked. I thought that some areas of single tracks with long passing sidings might make for more interesting operations.
Please, let me know of your experiences and thoughts.
Craig North Carolina
Aikidomaster... I have tried to make it single track with 2 long passing sidings already built. I will run N&W Y6b's, J's, and A's. Coal trains with about 18 cars and a caboose. ...The line was, of course double tracked.
Single track or widely spaced (and perhaps non parallel) double tracks make the run seem longer. And at what point does a very long passing siding look like a double track mainline.I guess it depends on how faithful to the original you want to be.
"I thought that some areas of single tracks with long passing sidings might make for more interesting operations."
So would John Armstrong (or A.C. Kalmbach). If you haven't ready chapter 3 of Track Planning for Realistic Operation 3rd Ed. by Armstrong, you should. Even with a double track you still need passing sidings.
Co-owner of the proposed CT River Valley RR (HO scale) http://home.comcast.net/~docinct/CTRiverValleyRR/
Aikidomaster My layout will have about 120 feet of mainline. It is a point to point layout with staging at each end. I have about 30% of the mainline installed (but that includes part of the main yard. I have tried to make it single track with 2 long passing sidings already built. I will run N&W Y6b's, J's, and A's. Coal trains with about 18 cars and a caboose. I have not decided about the rest of the mainline. That is whether or not to single or double track it. My layout is based on the N&W's Pocahontas Division in the fall of 1958. The line was, of course double tracked. I thought that some areas of single tracks with long passing sidings might make for more interesting operations.
The decision really hinges on what you consider more "interesting operations".
Following the prototype's track arrangements only works well if you are following the prototype's operations.
In the '50s, Armstrong divided operations into 3 basic categories. Most of us tend to lean one direction more than the others, but few of us are totally in one camp.
At the simple end from a layout design perspective is the "spectator". The spectator basically railfans in miniature. He recreates telltale scenes - in your case, perhaps watching a loaded coal drag pass a significant landmark - and watches the trains pass through them. Scenery is important to the spectator. So is plenty of staging, as the spectator generally doesn't want to spend significant time working a yard making and breaking up trains. For the spectator's layout, double track is often a plus, especially if it is prototypical. The double track allows longer trains and higher train density.
The engineer enjoys being the train crew on his train - conductor, fireman, engineer all in one person. Typically, this person enjoys running way freights so he can do switching along the route. Engine servicing before and at the end of the run are often important items for the engineer. Single track main is often better suited to the engineer so that he has to periodically clear the main for higher priority trains. Designing a layout to sit an engineer is more difficult than it may seem. If running a train is too easy, the layout is boring. If the obstacles become too difficult, frustration sets in. And the thresholds may change over time as the engineer gains operating experience.
The dispatcher is all about running a railroad with multiple trains. Obstacles have to be overcome while getting the job done. Timetables need to be met. I have never operated on a club layout that was far enough long to know/understand this type of operation well. But many club layouts, and some private layouts were of this type.
So what type of operations are you envisioning? And how big an operating crew?
Some of the more successful point-to-point layouts that were known for operations (I'm thinking of Delta Lines and the Victoria Northern in particular) used double track at least part way from the larger terminal to the division point, and single track for the rest.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Craig...
If you are to be having operating sessions you might want to consider some things that were brushed against above.
What is it that you are trying to model?
If you are to be using a card or similar computer generated switching system, will a single track cause a bottle neck? This is important as you don't want to punish your operators. There is a fine line between prototypical operation and frustrations of being backed up waiting for yard access.
Setting your times for route schedules can solve some of this but new operators will have trouble keeping up with the clock and what might have started out simple enough turns into something quite different.
Double track can be used for a passing track or left and right traffic in and out of a yard.... Beware of CNW left side drive ! ! ! !
Many modelers put their pike into some service before extensive scenic work. You may want to run some operating sessions with single track and then decide if a second track is necessary before landscaping.
Recall that the big boys will add track options in yards or accesses if traffic justifies it.
see yaBob
You could always build a double main line with crossovers. That way, you have all of the benefits of a double main line with the operation challenges of a single main line with long sidings.
My layout is a double main line, and I would not do without it.
Rich
Alton Junction
Aikidomaster First, I am certain that this is not the first time this has been discussed. But, I would like to hear from folks about the subject (possibly again). If you think that I am beating a dead horse, ............ Please, let me know of your experiences and thoughts.
First, I am certain that this is not the first time this has been discussed. But, I would like to hear from folks about the subject (possibly again). If you think that I am beating a dead horse, ............
Gidday Craig, As long as you have made sure the horse is actually dead !!!
Seriously as far as I'm concerned you have legitimate concerns / thoughts that you require opinions on, this topic was discussed here not that long ago,
http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/203807/2228214.aspx#2228214
but unless you were going to resurrect it or "hijack it", I don't see why there should be any negative comments for you starting your thread, besides it gives the opportunity for others offer "new" opinions.
As I said in that thread MY preference was having a predominately single track main with passing sidings but that I also wanted "a bob each way' by having a double tracked "helper district.
"The engineer enjoys being the train crew on his train - conductor, fireman, engineer all in one person. Typically, this person enjoys running way freights so he can do switching along the route. Engine servicing before and at the end of the run are often important items for the engineer. Single track main is often better suited to the engineer so that he has to periodically clear the main for higher priority trains. Designing a layout to sit an engineer is more difficult than it may seem. If running a train is too easy, the layout is boring. If the obstacles become too difficult, frustration sets in. And the thresholds may change over time as the engineer gains operating experience." Fred W
From Fred Ws post, I would have to say that I definitely tend towards "The Engineer".The layout I get to operate on from time to time is single tracked, but also caters for "The Spectator" in that they generally run the express passenger or "hot shot" freights "through " the layout.
"If you are to be using a card or similar computer generated switching system, will a single track cause a bottle neck? This is important as you don't want to punish your operators. There is a fine line between prototypical operation and frustrations of being backed up waiting for yard access". Bob, Boise Nampa & Owhee.
Again I must be lucky, though in reality its actually down to lots of fine tuning by the Layout Owner, he holds a quick debrief session at the end of operations, that the time spent in "the hole" waiting for the priority trains to go through is not actually that long and well spent in having a "quick brew-up and yarn with others in the same predicament.
Bobs suggestion about having operation sessions before landscaping is a particularly valid one.
To outsiders I've always described "operations" as akin to playing chess with trains.
No pressure but looking forward, long term, to see your layout as 1958 will be the cutoff date on my planned North Eastern freelanced railroad. Reckon that you guys that model a specific prototype in a specific time frame are making a rod for your own backs, but have to admire you for doing so.
Cheers,the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Just because one builds a double track main line does not necessarily mean it needs to be operated as a double track main line. For certain operating sessions just make portions of the double track closed (or even make certain they are closed by parking MOW equipment or some such thing on them). That way you can operate as a single track mainline. The best of both worlds.
Texas Zepher Just because one builds a double track main line does not necessarily mean it needs to be operated as a double track main line. For certain operating sessions just make portions of the double track closed (or even make certain they are closed by parking MOW equipment or some such thing on them). That way you can operate as a single track mainline. The best of both worlds.
Well said. That is a great idea with the parked MOW equipment. Or just a string of freight cars parked temporarily on one of the main lines.
hi gentlemen,
the first time i read about this issue is probably more then ten years ago. In Model Railroad Planning, a layout built by Jeff Wilson modeling the joint track of several class 1 RR's along the Ohio River, was presented. Followed a year later by a short message why he had given up the project. It also was a point to point railroad, with a rather "short" mainline. Beside having to build over 10,000 trees he became aware of operational, money and time issues. He felt he was ending up with huge staging area's; with lots of cash and time involved by building or buying numerous prototypical correct and famous passenger trains. All that ado for a few minutes of fun, for the very short time it took his hot-shots to blast through between the staging area's.
Not even 5 minutes of love for 25 years in jail, Jerry Lee Lewis made a song about it.
When you are after building a busy double track mainline, with huge engines and long trains, a loop to loop design or a continuous run probably is the better choice. On such a railroad the way-freight or local will need a playground completely independent from the main; so yards will become pretty large indeed . By doing more then one lap or using the same train "more" times during a session the balance between staging and the visible part will be more satisfying.
With a point to point system, you will need to find ways to keep the pace and the number of trains down, by giving switching duties to the through-trains or/and to have them wait in sidings. The length of these long trains however might cause a severe design problem. The question remains if your layout will still be a believable model of the Pocahontas division of the N&W.
What seems to be your big love for a real railroad, maybe due to the awesome pics by O.W. Link, is not necessarily the one that makes you happy as a model for the next decades. You are facing some difficult decisions.
Smile
Paul
Wasn't Allen McClelland's V&O, both old & new, single track with passing sidings?????
CPR's Belleville Sub is single track with passing sidings of various lengths.
It's your railway, do what makes sense & fun to you.
My railway is single tracked. I prefer it that way as yes there will be bottle necks of traffic where my dispatcher is going to be his/her toes.
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
Another possibility is a non-parallel double track mainline, somewhat like Southern Pacific's Donner Pass line in the California Sierra Nevada mountains, or Santa Fe in portions of California and Arizona. In Espee's case, a newer second track with easier grades was built somewhat parallel to the original grade, but not STRICTLY parallel (in some instances, the two grades are separated by several miles and enough elevation difference to allow for several crossovers).
Union Pacific, which owns the Donner Pass line now, made both tracks multidirectional several years back for double-stack tunnel clearance purposes, so it wouldn't be un-prototypical on a model railroad to see, say, an eastbound train on a westbound track.
It's a concept that I adapted for my own MR, which is a 'loop' instead of point-to-point, and allows twice the running space for my trains. And with the non-parallel concept, my train never seems to appear to be going through the same scenery twice.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
LION has a FOUR track main line. An express track and a local track in each of two directions.
Time table calls for 478 local trains daily, I do not dispatch the express trains, they just run on closed loops by them selves, but in theory there would be about 500 daily express trains as well.
I have 6 train sets serving the local track from 242nd Street to the South Ferry Loop and back again a distance of 9+ scale miles, and making the run in 18 minutes, including all of the stops. Trains run on a five minute headway, and as the tower operator / dispatcher all I handle is the interlocking plant at 242nd Street. Operation of the trains is automatic.
At the moment there is just one train set in each direction on the express loops, but I really should have two train sets on each because my interval between trains is a tad bid more than it should be. If I did that I would have to coordinate with Nevins Tower and with Lenox Tower as those trains enter the Broadway tracks. It is doable by hand, but my automation is not that far along yet.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
LIONOne would expect no less for a subway line (largest in ND I believe)
Hmm. So a train leaves staging at one end of the layout, travels the main line, and within 120 feet (two scale miles in HO) the train enters staging at the far end. Trip over? What happens next? Can you reverse the train direction in staging so that it sooner or later runs back to where it came? Or do you have to swap the engine and caboose by hand? Or do you run the train backwards to get back where it came from?
For me, the idea of getting a train on the tracks, coupled up, and out of staging, and then after just a couple of minutes, put that train into staging, and get out another one, is unattractive. Once I get a train going, I like to admire it running for quite some time. Was it me, I'd have a loop at each end to give continuous running.
As far as operation goes, a single track main with passing sidings keeps you busy if you have two trains running at the same time. The inferior train has to get itself into a siding and clear the main for the superior train. Whereas with a double track main you can have two trains running at the same time and never worry, they won't collide.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
Since I am modeling a stretch of Santa Fe in Oklahoma on three decks, which includes trackage at Oklahoma City, Enid and other towns, and since I operate it as the Santa Fe did in 1988-89, and since the mainline is single track with passing tracks, that is what I model. Works fine for me, I am happy with the operation, and it pretty much resembles the full size line it models.
Bob
Aikidomaster I have not decided about the rest of the mainline. That is whether or not to single or double track it. My layout is based on the N&W's Pocahontas Division in the fall of 1958. The line was, of course double tracked. I thought that some areas of single tracks with long passing sidings might make for more interesting operations.
I have not decided about the rest of the mainline. That is whether or not to single or double track it. My layout is based on the N&W's Pocahontas Division in the fall of 1958. The line was, of course double tracked. I thought that some areas of single tracks with long passing sidings might make for more interesting operations.
Totally up to you.Single track increases the dependence on dispatching and creates more interaction between trains, double track looks better if you are modeling a line that had double track.
Either way, nothing prevents you from keeping speeds down as your trains moves along the layout, and having some passing sidings beside the double track, so a train can go into a siding to let another train overtake it, or declaring that some section of the double track main is out of bounds due to track work or something like that.
If you want to see an inspirational layout which is partly single track and partly double track, have a look at the layout belonging to Grampy's Trains.You can see that layout in this thread: http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/135313/1517796.aspx#1517796
Here is the schematic, to the best of my abilities as judged from looking at the photos of the layout - bottom part goes on the left end of the top part:
Smile, Stein
Fred,
I have thought that about 6-7 operators would be good. That would be 3 people for east bound trains and 3 people for westbound trains. There would be a yard locomotives in which there are 2 arrival/departure tracks, and 4 classification tracks along with a roundhouse, turntable and a few industries. This might mean that 2 people are needed for yard work. There would be a dispatcher. I plan to use the way bills for car routing. Thanks!
Bob,
I am not very experienced with operating a model railroad prototypically. I have built some scenery, but that is just a large mountain that has 42 inch radius (for inner track) doing a 180 degree turn. Then, there are background mountains against the wall. There is a mainline, large passing siding with crossover, and 2 tracks to the coal tipple. I plan for heavy coal traffic and at least 3 mines modeled. I will run one eastbound and one westbound passenger train daily. Wood products are another industry that I want to incorporate. Thanks for the help.
Hi Graig,
6 people running trains, while the running time between staging yards is about 3 minutes you could have a train entering your yard every minute. Here the pace of activities probably can't cope with all the incoming trains.
With so many trains , and you have to keep your engineers occupied, you will need huge staging yards. Lets assume 4 of these engineers are running main line consists, lets assume it takes them 10 minutes to go from yard to yard they will run between 8 and 10 trains each during a session. Your staging yards should have a 16 to 20 train capacity at both sides.
The pace of the wayfreight or local will be much slower. Never the less with such a busy main line it will be hard to serve industries along the main. Without knowing much more about your track plan, you could show it on here, it is impossible to talk about possible operations on your layout.
For some reason, John Armstrong's dictum "don't do anything twice" always sticks with me.
I'd be tempted to look at having one end of the layout being a staging / fiddle yard, and the other end a "working" yard with a turntable / roundhouse, fueling facilities, and yard tracks to break down and assemble trains. A reverse loop as part of the staging area would be nice, allowing you to turn trains either to be re-used during the operating session (like a passenger train) or just to be turned to be ready for the next operating session.
As far as double-track vs. single-track, I always find when I get confused and can't find the answer in a track planning book, the last resort is to look at what the real railroad did. With long trains running both directions, double track made sense for the N&W so I suspect would make sense for your model of the N&W.
Paul,
I lived in Roanoke, VA for 10 years. I was there when the O. Winston Link Museum was opened. But, my love of the N&W steam actually came from riding #1218 and #611 on excursions. 25 years ago, I was living in Salisbury, NC. #1218 came thru town and turned around on the Y at the station. I was railfanning with my 3 years old daughter at that moment. We were allowed in the cab of #1218 and rode while the engine was turned!! That was it for me!! I have been a fan of the Southern Railway, but they dieselized too early for my tastes. The merger of N&W and Southern Ry in 1982 made it easy to want to follow both.
N&W Pocahontas Division, in a way reminds me, of our nearby high mountain iron of Pennsy's Gallitzin Tunnels -- Just a few minutes west of the Horseshoe Curve -- Then 4-track PRR operations which are now largely 3-track N&W mainlines.
Compare those pictures to of a nearby (Pocahontas area) N&W Elkhorn Tunnel traction, and photos found at this N Scale Pocahontas Division website -- Heavy-duty Class I railroading. Prototype operations seem to be more 2-track than 1-track -- Although you can still see 1-track tunnels, etc.
Since you have the room, you might consider a 2-track mainline, but with one of the mains subject to 1-track (passing track) operations. In other words, you could have one of the two mainlines provide more of a heavy-duty (constant-running) appearance of "coming from the world beyond" while "going to the world beyond."
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
dstarr,
There is a classification yard half way between the two staging yards. As far as turning locomotives, I have planned that one staging yard will be another visible yard with a turntable. I had thought about a wye but that takes up too much space.
Well, the thought of 16-20 train staging yards scares me because of my limited space. I guess I need to think about operations a lot more before continuing on with construction.
One of my many problems, is that I have NEVER participated (nor been invited) to an operating session. So, besides reading a lot of books on the subject and reading the FORUM, I have just been "winging it".
To be honest, I love the building of structures and making scenery. Therefore, operations has been an after thought.
AikidomasterOne of my many problems, is that I have NEVER participated (nor been invited) to an operating session. So, besides reading a lot of books on the subject and reading the FORUM, I have just been "winging it". To be honest, I love the building of structures and making scenery. Therefore, operations has been an after thought.
Unfortunately this really puts you at a disadvantage. Layouts with operations added as afterthoughts, and layouts where the designer/builder had minimal or no experience operating rarely run like those created by and for experienced operators. Even armed with a lot of "book learning" there's a lot to incorporate that only experience will show you. Hopefully you can connect with some good operating crews and get some first-hand exposure, and stay flexible when it comes to changing your layout based on what you learn.
Rob Spangler
Stix,
You come up with a good point that I have already thought about but had not drawn up plans. That is having one of the staging yards in "the open" and having a turntable for the locomotives (and some of the equipment).
I am certain that the staging track that is the hardest to reach will be the one with the most problems! I love scenery, and another yard at the end of the layout would be another opportunity for scenery.
Rob,
I am trying to remain flexible with respect to the layout plan. That is why I started with the classification yard (in the "middle" of the layout and then started building "west". The yard is far from complete and the servicing facilities are not installed. I have been running some trains westbound and doing some classification switching in the west end of the yard (the east end is a "work in progress"). This has made me come up with some design changes in the yard for smoother operation. I am lengthening the drill track as it was not long enough for some of the trains I plan to run.
Thank you for your input. There is a nearby club that has a layout that is 95% complete. I have hesitated in going there because of various excuses. One is that there is not much left to do on the layout. And two, is that I am somewhat embarrassed about my lack of operational running. Guess it is time to pay them a visit.
If they make you feel embarrassed over your lack of experience, shame on them (and probably not a club to be involved with). Everyone has started somewhere and with limited knowledge. It's only by providing experiential and learning opportunities that the hobby not only sustains but grows.
Aikidomaster Thank you for your input. There is a nearby club that has a layout that is 95% complete. I have hesitated in going there because of various excuses. One is that there is not much left to do on the layout. And two, is that I am somewhat embarrassed about my lack of operational running. Guess it is time to pay them a visit.
I have no interest in joining a club, and I have no first hand experience with operations.
But if I were you, my plan would be to contact the club and ask if you might attend an operating session to observe. Then, if the club members are willing, simply attend, observe, and ask questions without being a pest or nuisance. Once you get comfortable and gain a little knowledge of operations, you will be good to go.
It depends too on what you mean by "operating". In recent years that has come to mean "a bunch of guys getting together once a month to 'operate' a layout". I'd argue "operation" means doing more with your layout than watching trains run 'round and round. If you're running on a schedule (either timed or sequence) or just running a way freight dropping off and picking up cars, you're "operating" your layout, even if it's just you doing it.
One thing I'd add for planning/building a layout is that, IMHO, one mistake people make is that they spread out the layout's industries more or less evenly over the layout. It's probably more realistic to have groupings of industries with 'open spaces' between them, just the way a real train might stop to serve 2-3 industries in a small town, then go several miles to the next town and serve 2-3 industries there. Plus, having one big industry might be better than several small ones.