12/07: Best MR since Jan. 1960.
Regarding Handlaying Turnouts. Nice technique and pictures. Now please advise me on the additional finesse to do code 55 in HO standard gauge. I know, there must be a reason nobody sells anything in HO code 55 except HOn3, but hey, I like the look in standard gauge too (for the rundown shortline that's a work in progress). Also, since I'm a little dense, is there a chart around that correlates the different turnout numbers (#6, #8, etc.) with their approximate (or exact?) matching radius? I'd like to match my turnouts to 48" radius.
Thanx...
Here is a handy-dandy chart. It is only a guide, remember, and only loosely accommodated by commercial manufacturers.
http://www.nmra.org/standards/rp12_3.html
Technically switches don't have a 'radius'. They are straight from the frog on. Unless you make a curved switch.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman wrote: Technically switches don't have a 'radius'. They are straight from the frog on. Unless you make a curved switch.Dave H.
True and false.
Every turnout has a replacement curve radius (which would replace the turnout if the latter was removed) and a sharper 'included radius' from the point heel to the straight through the frog on the curved side. It's that 'included' radius that causes long-wheelbase steam to bind in low frog number turnouts.
I personally handlay turnouts in place, by methods different in almost every detail from those in the MR article. I have also seen many other hand-laying articles, no two in full agreement. As far as I know, ALL will produce satisfactory (reasonable-looking, dependable operating) turnouts. There is no one 'right' way.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
cowcatcherrider wrote:12/07: Best MR since Jan. 1960.Regarding Handlaying Turnouts. Nice technique and pictures. Now please advise me on the additional finesse to do code 55 in HO standard gauge. I know, there must be a reason nobody sells anything in HO code 55 except HOn3, but hey, I like the look in standard gauge too (for the rundown shortline that's a work in progress). Also, since I'm a little dense, is there a chart around that correlates the different turnout numbers (#6, #8, etc.) with their approximate (or exact?) matching radius? I'd like to match my turnouts to 48" radius.Thanx...
One issue in hand laying code 55 track revolve around height of spike heads and depth of flanges - assuming you use spikes to fasten your rails to ties. There are 3 relatively popular methods to hand lay track - spiking to wood ties, glueing to wood or plastic ties, and soldering to PCB ties. A combination of methods may be used, especially in turnouts.
Glueing and soldering eliminate the spike head problem, but may occasionally induce other problems associated with rail and/or roadbed expansion and contraction.
Scale size spikes and other details are available from http://www.proto87.com/. The MicroEngineering micro spikes, although over-size, are small enough to spike code 55 rail for passage of RP25 flanges. The other issue with code 55 and 40 rail is that it becomes easier to create vertical kinks when spiking by pushing the spikes home with too much force. Just a reminder to gently snug the rail to the rail base, and no more - then you will be fine. Also, when pre-bending rail for curves (highly recommended by the way), make sure the rail does not twist out of vertical while bending. I recommend a rail bender, available from Fast Tracks, for any curve where holding a constant radius is critical. Don't ask me how I know to make this recommendation!
Other posters have explained turnout curves, so I won't waste any more time with that portion of your questions.
Also, see the bottom of Steve Hatch's web page (http://www.railwayeng.com/) for links to more info on hand laying track, including modeling hand hewn ties, and fabricating code 55 turnouts in HOn3. His track looks incredible in pictures; I'd like to see his layout in person some day.
yours in handlaid track
Fred W
Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
ssgauge - gaps between the closure rails and the cast frog. Most folks leave them between the (open) point and the stock rail, mine are at the heels of the points. Just as long as there is no continuity between the two stock rails there won't be any problems.
Hey Andy,
You folks have put out quite a few articles by various authors regarding hand laying track. You've even touched on it in some reference Kalmback volumes (Track & Lineside details).
With that being said have you been considering putting out a book on the subject really giving it the entire treatment it deserves?
I for one would love to have one goto source for handlaying track. It seems to be one of the subjects in model railroading still treated by the "hand me down" system of knowledge transference.
It would be great to have one source volume that addresses everything from laying straight track to turnouts of various frogs as well as curved turnouts. Moving on to things like crossovers, diamonds and slips.
One thing that has been confusing me lately is curved turnouts. Specifically how can you have a curved turnout with a particular frog number, say number 6, but with different outside and diverging radii?
For instance a curved turnout with a #6 frog and 36 (outside)- 28(diverging) radius, versus another with a #6 but 32 - 24 radius.
Handlaying is something that I want to tackle and I'm sure many others would as well. The results simply speak RAILROAD when done well. Right of way is dictated by local geography most of all. I really like the idea of the fast tracks concept but in the long run I'd rather have a method which doesn't depend on pre-purchased jigs.
thanks!
Martin
Hudson wrote: One thing that has been confusing me lately is curved turnouts. Specifically how can you have a curved turnout with a particular frog number, say number 6, but with different outside and diverging radii?
The track through the frog is straight. What you are doing is lengthening or shortening the distance from the points to the frog. Technically there will be two centers for the radii of the track on either side of the frog. Radius 1 will be between the points (or heels of the point) and the frog and Radius 2 will be from the frog onto the rest of the curve. The two centers will be separated by the length of the frog.
If you are handlaying the track using a "traditional" method, without using a jig or fixture you can actually curve the track through the frog and frog number becomes immaterial.
You can use wood ties and spike the rail down, you can use PC board ties, you can use CV switch kits, you can use glue to attach the rails, you can make your own frogs and points, you can buy frog and point kits, you can buy pre-made frogs and points. Many ways to skin a cat.
For making a curved turnout by hand, the easiest way I have found is to tack down flextrack along one curve, making sure you anchor it well at the points end. Lay big piece of paper over it, tack the paper down and rub a pencil on the rails and ties to trace the track. Unfasten the flex track up to the points and bend it to the other radius, put the tracing paper over the 2nd radius and trace it. You now have a template you can use on the workbench or gue to the roadbed to make a custom curved switch. I have built dozens of those over the last 20 years.
To tomikawaTT...Not to belabor this, but...I agree that a closure rail/cast frog gap would solve the short circuit problem, but in the 12/07 MR article the photos show metal rail joiners connecting the closure rails to the cast frog rails AND rail joiners connecting the closure rails to the points. ?????
thanks for clearing that up for me.
Question regarding "radius 1": That would remain the same beyond the frog correct?
"Radius 2" refers to the diverging route and it's radius past the frog?
In essence if I can lay a straight turnout I should be able to lay a curved one?
Is their any particular things to be wary of when manufacturing a curved frog?
"For making a curved turnout by hand, the easiest way I have found is to tack down flextrack along one curve, making sure you anchor it well at the points end. Lay big piece of paper over it, tack the paper down and rub a pencil on the rails and ties to trace the track. Unfasten the flex track up to the points and bend it to the other radius, put the tracing paper over the 2nd radius and trace it. You now have a template you can use on the workbench or gue to the roadbed to make a custom curved switch."
Brilliantly simple! Where di you learn that method?
What about curved crossovers, say from the outside curve to the inside curve of a double track main? Same method?
Thanks for the tips!
Thanks Andy,
We've all seen some amazing layouts with prefab track but to my eyes, and I'm sure many others, hand-laid really adds another level of realism when done well.
Maybe instead of a book a .pdf document for sale.......
One thing about handlaying smaller rail sections such as Code 55 is that it is easier to "kink" the rail by pushing the spike in too hard. This can happen with any size rail actually. Handlaying rail takes practice and patience (and good eyesight!). Too bad the Tru-Scale roadbed with integral milled ties and tie plates to correct HO gauge is no longer made. That was how I first handlaid track (not terribly well actually) -- a good way to learn and to see if you like it.
Dave Nelson
Sperandeo wrote:Hi Martin,I'd consider writing such a book if our books department ever thought there'd be a market for it. I have to admit, however, that I've never built a diamond, a slip switch of any kind, or a lap (3-way) turnout. I've fortunately chosen a protype to model that doesn't have any of those, which I think is good planning on my part if I do say so! (I'm sure I could learn how to build them if I had to.)There are several cases where I've built curved turnouts and curved crossovers, however. The easiest way, where a slightly curved standard turnout will do, is to simply bend the layout of a standard switch. Most of my turnouts, for example, follow the Santa Fe's drawing for a standard no. 6-1/2. I've made tie jigs that let me glue down switch ties for those turnouts in the standard arrangement, and I can build a standard turnout on the ties just by following the tie layout. If I put the straight side of that standard tie layout along a gentle curve and bend the whole thing to fit, I can then build a no. 6-1/2 (approximately) curved turnout. I've done this a few times so I know it works.I use otner methods for laying out longer curved turnouts and curved crossovers. Basically if you know the radii of the curves you want to connect and can draw them out on your layout, its not hard to figure out the turnout rail locations and arrange ties to support them. Just don't be surprised when using large radii that you come out with some very long turnouts.Good luck,Andy
If that book comes out, Andy, I'd like to see a section on how to make the jigs to fabricate the frogs for different number turnouts. YEARS ago (mid 70's?) our train club at McGuire AFB had a clinic on making the jigs from a piece of plywood and strips of basswood. IIRC, it was a separte jig for the different numbers and different rail sizes. Soldering the frogs would eventually damage the wood, but it was cheap enough to make new ones.
Hudson wrote: Question regarding "radius 1": That would remain the same beyond the frog correct?
Yes, it would under the context of the discussion.
Yep.
Yep. Nothings straight so you have to eyeball and check things a lot closer to make sure you aren't getting a kink in something.
You have to watch the frogs, The wider the radii, the l o n g e r the frog is and the longer the guardrails have to be. At some point it starts to look bad and if your wheels and standards aren't up to snuff, you will get wheels dropping into the frog. Curved switches are long compared to a typical straight switch so you end up using a lot of real estate with them. Make sure you really need them before you give up the distance.
Not by using a commercial jig. 8-) Some fine modelers at the Schyulkill Valley Model Railroad Club in Phoenixville, PA, back in the 1970's.
Yes but you have to be really careful about your radii and alignments, its pretty easy to get a bad reverse curve if you aren't careful. That will also be a very l o n g crossover. In radii in the 3 ft range I wouldn't doubt that point to point the distance will be 3-4 feet long. In straight track that would be somewhere around a #16-20 crossover. So be careful what you ask for.
Thanks Dave,
It's very easy to glance over and not appreciate the geometry of a wide radii curved crossover.....Makes sense though......
On a curved turnout, the length of the turnout (and the frog number, if applicable) is driven mostly by the difference between the 2 radii. The greater the spread between the inner path radius and the outer path radius, the shorter the turnout, and the smaller the frog number. The key to laying out handlaid curved turnouts is to pick the inner path radius to fit your curve, and then let the outer path radius be as big as practical (straight being the ultimate case where you now have a regular turnout). Unfourtunately, as Dave has pointed out, using a decent spread between the radii can lead to ugly reverse curves between 2 parallel curved tracks.
In HO, anything less than a 4" spread between the 2 radii usually leads to a very long curved turnout.
my thoughts, your choices