scales and manufacturers

[Anonymous]

Did anybody make a list of which company makes what size?

Because such a thing would be very useful... I just realised how big of a different 1:20.3 and 1:22.5 is (atleast I think it is 22.5, whatever lineol used to make...)

I think I am going to go 22.5, since I have 4 cars and 1 building that is such size. So knowing what to buy from where would be a big help.

Thanks,
Richard

[folkestonekeith]

some manufacturers make models in different scales - what I think is most important is that all manufacturers clearly state in their catalogues, websites and adverts what scale is used for each model.....a simple solution one would think......

[tangerine-jack]

I wish I had better news for you, but this battle has been raging for a long time. As Keith said, it would be easier if the manufacturer would TELL US WHAT FRIGGIN' SCALE IT IS!!!! HELLO!!!!!!!!!!! MANUFACTURERS"??? ARE YOU LISTENING????

[Curmudgeon]

Oh, boy.
First, they don't care.
They sell all they make.
Like a Warbonnet GP-9.

Anyway, older USA, 1:22.5 (LGB Clones)
Newer, 1:29, including locos.

Bachmann- Big Hauler, all rolling stock less V-dump, 1:22.5.
Most Spectrum engines, 1:20.

LGB- Suitable For Large Scale.

Aristo- Basically 1:29, Classic 1:24.

Delton is 1:24.

Lionel mostly 1:32. (the older, small freight cars is anybodies guess).

MDC, 1:32, except what's not (like the caboose is 1:24).

Mikey is 1:32.

I don't think it's quite as important than revealing the specific prototype so we can figure it out on our own.

TOC

[Anonymous]

Wow, this looks like more of a headache then a hobby lol...

I feel so lost...

Well, I returned my bachmann engine now I guess I am looking for a new one..

It looks like LGB is what I have to stick with if I want to keep it in scale... I was thinking of switching but I kinda like this old Pola building I have and it would be a shame to waste that $120

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kellis

Wow, this looks like more of a headache then a hobby lol...

I feel so lost...

Well, I returned my bachmann engine now I guess I am looking for a new one..

It looks like LGB is what I have to stick with if I want to keep it in scale... I was thinking of switching but I kinda like this old Pola building I have and it would be a shame to waste that $120

Rich,

Yep, you stick with LGB and you will be "well served" in the "Scale" department.
Of all the manufacturers, LGB is the least likely to tell you what scale (as in "a specific ratio to the prototype") it is. If you want to find out you need to buy an item and measure it, compare it to the prototype and then you know. When you do that with North American models, please let us in on the nitty gritty.[;)][;)][:D]

BTW LGB is also the mfg with the most number of scales in the product line-up. They are so versatile, they have no problem incorporating three and more different scales in the same item. The more features you measure the more different scales you will find.
But it all looks "good" together i.e. from the Maine two-footers to large modern hoppers it all fits into the same cubic space or cross section (more or less).

If Jack Lynch joins the discussion he will likely tell you that it all fits "G Scale" or "G Gauge" (depends on the day of the week[;)][:p][;)]) and that LGB is a TOY manufacturer.
Soooooo if you aspire to be a garden model railroader, choose carefully.[;)][;)][:D]

[Bucksco]

Richard,
At the risk of being ripped to shreds for posting this you might want to check out this pdf:
http://www.lgb.de/pdf/GChartDE.pdf
And before everybody out there jumps all over me about scale fidelity I need to point out the fact that LGB does not claim to produce a particular "scale". We manufacture a program of "G" gauge trains that can all interact well with each other within that program. In other words if you run LGB trains with LGB trains they will all look and perform well together -functionally and esthetically.
This is not everybody's cup of tea (as you will see from the responses that are posted in reaction to my post!).
LGB is "G" gauge-45mm.

P.S. - Didn't get a chance to fini***yping this before someone took a shot at me ![;)]

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Bucksco

........................................
P.S. - Didn't get a chance to fini***yping this before someone took a shot at me ![;)]

Poor Jack![;)][:D][:D][:D]

Didn't you know we have a "Scale and Manufacturers topic" alarm system at the office and the production shop; it's tuned to many of the Large Scale fora in both English and German.
If I had known that you were about to post I would have held off. At least I hit your general "tenor" pretty accurately.

BTW you really need to speak with the "Vaterhaus", on their website they still prominently feature:

QUOTE: LGB is big. The letters "LGB" stand for "Lehmann Gross Bahn" or "Lehmann's Big Train." LGB trains are G-scale (generally 1:22.5) - four times larger than conventional HO-scale trains (1:87).

Direct quote from http://www.lgb.de/english/was_ist_lgb/was_ist_lgb.asp

I added the Italics so it is either to see what LGB Germany (aka EPL) mentions on this score.
Personally I have no problem with 1:22.5 scale, I just wi***hat LGB would adhere to it more often. Especially when it comes to RhB items.[;)][;)][:)][:D] 1:22.5 would be a perfect fit!

PS the C2012 has arrived, but it will be next week before I get to measuring. Since this topic is perfect for a little illustration of the "problem", I will gladly post a drawing and the table for all the different measurements. It will be interesting to see how many different scales are combined in that one coach. [;)][;)][:)][;)]

[TonyWalsham]

Jack,
What is with this "G" Gauge thing.
There is no such gauge as " G" Gauge.
It is # 1 Gauge and has been for over 100 years. Ever since Maerklin invented it.

Or, is it LGB trying to re-invent the wheel? So to speak.

[Bucksco]

Tony,
Marklin invented #1 gauge
Wolfgang and Eberhard invented "G" gauge. G gauge is what LGB practices.
G is for Garten- I wouldn't run Marklin outdoors!

HJ,
The key words are "generally 1:22.5"

[Marty Cozad]

In the 4 clubs that I'm in, very few care about SCALE.
I care, but thats just me. I don't know why you'd want any thing other than 1:29???

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TonyWalsham

Jack,
What is with this "G" Gauge thing.
There is no such gauge as " G" Gauge.
It is # 1 Gauge and has been for over 100 years. Ever since Maerklin invented it.

Or, is it LGB trying to re-invent the wheel? So to speak.

Tony, [;)][:D][;)]

Good point!

I personally believe that Jack and some others at LGBoA and EPL keep repeating the same mantra over and over in the vain hope that one day we all believe them and forget about what the real history of Large Scale including garden railways is!

Anyone who believes that 1:22.5 scale is called "G" by anyone but LGB and the hoodwinked NMRA has either a very selective memory, didn't do enough research yet or is completely NA centric i.e. doesn't have a clue who established which standards and when.

And yes Virginia, there are people like that!
In German there is a very precise expression on that syndrome: "Dumm geboren, nichts gelernt und das auch noch vergessen!" (Born stupid, didn't learn anything and forgot that as well!)

There are plenty of sites on the Internet that cover the whose standards when, just like there are plenty of sites that reference the NEM Standards.

Jack, my friend, have you ever contemplated the fact that LGB - a German company - couldn't/wouldn't follow the NEM standards (the defacto Standards of European model railway manufacturers)? Strange isn't it!?!? [}:)][;)][}:)]

BTW you know every year I tackle one special project. One year it was to prove to the rabid LGB crowd on MLS that things weren't to scale as advertised. Really hard to refute numbers nicely arranged in orderly columns which relate to each other. That was with RhB items.
Perhaps the special project for this year is doing LGB NA items, get the samples from our dealers on a rotating basis, measure and then put them on on eBay, I could even provide a "Scale Certificate" with each item. [;)][}:)][;)][:D][:D][:D]

PS Of course the first place I will publish results is an my own NA Rails forum - it's a German language forum for those who model NA "stuff" from Canada to Mexico. [;)][:)][;)]

[Capt Bob Johnson]

HJ
One of these days you're gonna give that poor man apoplexy! He's just doing his job! As my late father said, "we're all whores, if the price weren't right we wouldn't be working there!".

I'm like Marty, all 1:29, and perturbed that structures and autos and people are hard to find in 1:29!

My thing is that to me it just seems that anything they do comes out looking european, no matter the origin!

[Bucksco]

Makes my brain hurt but it's nothing I would stroke out over! [;)]

[TonyWalsham]

Jack,
With respect, the gauge is the distance between the rails. 45mm is the gauge in general use in the USA.
If you are referring to the scale I will agee that LGB popularised 1:22.5 running on # 1, 45 mm gauge, as "G" scale.
However, as well respected in the field of Toy Trains as LGB is, even LGB did not "invent" 1:22.5 scale.
That dates from pre WW2 and is used to represent mainline prototypes running on, if I am not mistaken, 64 mm gauge # 2.

As to not running Maerklin 1:32 models outdoors.
A number of my customers would be surprised to learn that you would not do it.
They do so with great success, and gave done so for many years. Granted they do not use LGB track as that is too coarse for reliable operation with Maerklin equipment.

[Tom The Brat]

I think I'll stay out of this fight[:-,]

[Curmudgeon]

This is funnier than a politian.

Let's say someone invents a 4-wheeled, gasoline-powered, people conveyance, and call it a "mover".

Many years later, someone else looks at it, same 4-wheels, gasoline engine, calls it an "automobile", and claims to have invented it.

Sorry, Jack, Wolfy didn't "invent" it, he "re-introduced" it.
Like Tony said, it's the distance between the rails.
The STANDARD, now accepted by the NMRA, was set by G1MRA just after the second world war, a TAD before LGB decided to "invent" it.

Marketing, huh?

"Tony,
Marklin invented #1 gauge
Wolfgang and Eberhard invented "G" gauge. G gauge is what LGB practices.
G is for Garten- I wouldn't run Marklin outdoors!

HJ,
The key words are "generally 1:22.5"
This post has been edited by Bucksco on Today, 19:59:29"

Love it.

And, if you want to know scale, frequency, any of that, just ask...and you'll get "suitable for large scale", or "proprietary information", or some variation thereof.

[Bucksco]

Sorry Tony I was not aware that Marklin produced weather resistant equipment designed to run outdoors. I do believe that EPL was the first company to mass produce large scale trains designed specifically to run outdoors (sealed gearboxes, UV resistant plastics, etc....)
I'm not talking scale or gauge but rather G as is Garden railway (built specifically for outdoor running).

[Curmudgeon]

Ah, but you said "Gauge".
There is a difference between "scale" and "gauge", which, if you'll go back to the top, you will see that's what this thread is all about.

And, rather than doing "marketing", at least someone listed the different "scales" on the gauge.

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kellis

............................................................... I was thinking of switching but I kinda like this old Pola building I have and it would be a shame to waste that $120

Richard,

Unless it says 1:22.5 on the box and you know the prototype, it may be smaller.

POLA makes several buildings of which the prototypes are located in the Grisons (the area I model) and since I have a lot of the prototype info, especially railway structures, I know that those buildings are not 1:22.5 scale.

When in doubt I'm from Missouri.[;)][:)][;)]

[Anonymous]

Wow, didn't mean to get everybody going!

However, I thank everybody for their input! I kinda understand everything a bit better now.

Cheers,
Richard

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Capt Bob Johnson

HJ
One of these days you're gonna give that poor man apoplexy! He's just doing his job! As my late father said, "we're all whores, if the price weren't right we wouldn't be working there!".

I'm like Marty, all 1:29, and perturbed that structures and autos and people are hard to find in 1:29!

My thing is that to me it just seems that anything they do comes out looking european, no matter the origin!

Bob,

Jack is not that easily thrown for a fit.[;)][:)] I know he's doing his job, but that's no reason to revise history.

You're right, the lack of accessories in 1:29 is a real bummer. It would take someone like Walthers to grab a hold of the opportunity for structures and things.
Either that or provide the European mfgs with drawings, detail photos and all the good stuff to produce some real NA structures, instead of slightly altered Euro stuff.

[kstrong]

QUOTE: Wow, didn't mean to get everybody going!

However, I thank everybody for their input! I kinda understand everything a bit better now.

Richard, please tell me what medications you're currently taking. If you've managed to make sense of all this, then you're clearly on a good mix. I'd like to patent it, and put my daughter (and the rest of her graduating class) through college. She graduates in 2023 [;)]

As you've discovered, the issue of scale and gauge as it applies to trains running outdoors is a very confusing mess, with no real clarity. A vast majority of garden railroader operate on the "if it looks good to me, I run it" theory of operation. To that end, the actual scale of a model means little, and the manufacturers delight in this, despite some making models to very specific--if a bit oddball--scales.

Those with calibrated eyeballs don't particularly worry about the scale of a model either, since they generally know the sizes of prototype equipment, and merely measure a particular model to see how it scales out in their particular chosen scale. For instance, the Delton/Aristo Classics hopper car is stated to be 1:24, but scales out almost perfectly for a Billmeyer and Smalls (prominent narrow-gauge carbuilder) hopper car in 1:20.3.) Bachmann's stated 1:22.5 generic box car scales out almost perfectly for different prototypes in 1:29, 1:24, 1:22.5 and 1:20.3.

So, while it would be great if manufacturers did a much better job of stating their scale, the bottom line is that it's really not as important as we really like to think it is.

Run what you think looks good together, be it LGB, Bachmann, Aristo, whoever. If, later on, you decide you want to focus on one particular era or specific scale, sell off what you no longer run, and buy more equipment that meets your needs. That's the beauty of this hobby.

Later,

K

[Anonymous]

If it runs on small radius 45mm track then its OK by me. I just wi***here could be commonality of nomenclature so that I (maybe 'we') would know what particular scale is under discussion.
For example the LGB chart referred to earler by Jack Lynch makes no mention of 16mm or 00 gauges but I expect they are there somewhere!

John

[Bucksco]

>>So, while it would be great if manufacturers did a much better job of stating their scale, the bottom line is that it's really not as important as we really like to think it is. <<

K,
You better put your flak jacket on!

[Tom The Brat]

QUOTE: Wow, didn't mean to get everybody going!

Fun, isn't it?[:-,]

[whiterab]

Yes Tom, the flak wars are fun for those of us that have settled in to what we want to do and don't give a flip about what expectations others have.

I just worry that someone new to the hobby is going to take the word battles seriously and be turned off by all of the negative comments. Too easy to get caught up in details and to loose track of the fact that this is supposed to be enjoyable.

If I had gotten a lot of this advice before I started the hobby, I probably would have stuck to building boats[:D]

[Tom The Brat]

The trick to scale in G gauge is to decide what you're modeling with your 45mm track.

A 3ft narrow gauge? 1:20.3

A meter guage? 1:22

Standard gauge? 1:29 or 1:32 if you're rich and finicky.

[TonyWalsham]

Tom,
Don't you start trying to re-invent the wheel too.
Repeat after me.
"It is not "G" Gauge!!! It is # 1 Gauge".

Like Jack says and I agree with him actually.
Accurate scale seems to be of little importance.

The manufacturers can make their toys in any scale they like.
I, and a large number of other LS'ers won't buy them unless they are to a particular scale that I need.
I may find the robustly constructed and extremely smooth running LGB models suitable for conversion to a scale that does appeal to me.
Personally I can never understand why they don't build them to scale anyway.
Surely it will maximise the market potential. Especially to those coming up from the smaller scales.
However, for those coming out of Hi-Rail "Tin Plate" I can understand they are not fussed. I guess that is the market LGB, AristoCraft and USA Trains are after as that is what they know best.

What gets my gander up is the attempt to re-invent nomenclature to suit corporate marketting and BS claims by some manufacturers as to scale accuracy of what are non scale toys, also in an attempt to aid marketting.

[Curmudgeon]

Gander up?
Re-invent nomenclature?