scales and manufacturers

[RhB_HJ]

Hi all,

I've been busily measuring the LGB 30340 RhB C 2012 Museumcar. Well there are enough discrepancies that need to be listed that I decided to post a preliminary comparison chart first.



One of the RhB Forum members provided those dimensions and yes, they checked out.

I'm now doing the "insert the dimensions in the drawing" routine and there are a lot of dimensions. But it is a very good example on just how many different scales one will find in LGB products. Even on a car that LGB terms

QUOTE: The LGB model is a faithful replica of the original complete with interior furnishings and authentic livery and lettering. With this model, another request of the LGB faithful has been fulfilled.

Of course there are very many different dictionaries and it is possible that LGB/EPL has a very special one in which there are completely new definitions.
"New Speak" anyone?? [;)][;)][}:)][}:)][:D][:D][:D]

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by folkestonekeith
.......................................................

We all know we have a mess of scales etc. so why can't the likes of LGB and all the others just tell us what they do. If Roco can do it why can't the others.......

Hi Keith,

Precisely!

To take LGB as an example and being specific to RhB equipment; I have a sneaky suspicion that until recently (let's say three years) LGB looked at prototype info as a "guideline". Conveniently using the R1 rule as the reason for "not so to scale".
Interestingly they have just released the "Bim" cars (DB prototype) and those puppies measure 800mm overall. The next interesting part is the position of the truck king pins (575mm center distance) and yet they still negotiate R1 (It's a cardinal rule in Nürnberg).
Needless to say that even RhB EW1 coaches would fit in that "foot print" and the trucks are closer to the ends of the cars. In other words what "prevents" LGB from going to scale length on the coaches is the jarring impression the user would get when comparing the shortie cars to scale cars. A typical example in the freight car line is the old and the new Gbk-v, "hmmmmmmmm how interesting" is the politest comment. Of course you know the new Gbk-v was a direct result of KISS producing one first, and in many respects a better model to boot. Of course there are those Large Scalers who opine that the KISS car just doesn't have "That LGB Feel". Personally I get a good laugh from those comments; yep, who cares if it is a better model if it just doesn't feel right.[;)][}:)][;)][;)][}:)]
Well, those "connoisseurs" already got a "Feel" of the newer, "Made in China" LGB items and for some strange reason they are not impressed. The models may be more accurate, but the "Feel" is gone.[:D][:D][:D]
I've only been in Large Scale since 1999 - just a newbie - and I obviously haven't read enough on the subject, how else could I have missed that LSers are really a touchy-feely bunch!
[;)][;)][:D][}:)][:D][:D][:p]

[Anonymous]

As long as it all works together you should just relax and "ignore the man behind the curtain" [:D][:p][}:)][8D][:I][^]

[folkestonekeith]

Great thread to follow since my posting when this thread started. We have a great hobby and there is plenty of room for everyone to get what they want as long as we know what we getting.

I'm a great fan of LGB (mainly the Swiss RhB and German Harz and Saxon Narrow Gauge) but I have bought some LGB Union Pacific stuff as well as the Sumpter Valley Mallet......as LGB Jack says, it all goes well together.... In view of it going well together it's obvious that the scale of the models is different so I can't understand why LGB just can't state what the scale is..... is the American stuff 1:29, 1:32 or something else.

There is the other problem mentioned in the other responses....the scale relation of the length of the model. In European HO some passenger cars are shorter than true scale. Fleischmann do this on their modern cars so they can negotiate tight radius curves. Roco also do this but they show an additional pictogram in the catalogue showing the length scale of 1:100 or 1:93.5 if it is not actual 1:87.

We all know we have a mess of scales etc. so why can't the likes of LGB and all the others just tell us what they do. If Roco can do it why can't the others.......

[Curmudgeon]

European Milwaukee Road Wheelsets.
Purely to scale.

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Curmudgeon

Spin it is, then.
Whirlygig?

Dave,

Whatelse do those guys have in the scale department??

BTW Whirlygig is way too slow. It's more like a spinning top, which is very appropriate. You know how those sort of wobble?? Similar sensation you get when you spin some of the LGB wheelsets, plenty of wobble.
I just got a new RhB coach which has a new type of wheel set - twin-spoked - and since this is a new item one could reasonably expect that the wheels would run true, thirtyeight years of experience should see to that.
But like the other "Spin", you can spin all you want, things just don't run true. Which makes me wonder: would that be an overflow effect of the WOW factor???[;)][:D][}:)][}:)][:D][:D]

[Curmudgeon]

Spin it is, then.
Whirlygig?

[RhB_HJ]

Dave and Tony, [;)][:)][;)]

To sum it up "Spin is in!"

OTOH finely crafted phrases have effect, too.

Recently I posted on a German forum

QUOTE: Übrigens mein "G - wie Gummi" Slogan bezieht sich auf den absolut flexibelsten Geschäftsbereich bei LGB: die Maßstabtreue und Maßstabeinheitlichkeit. Aus meiner Erfahrung und was mir die Händler erzählen, hinkt der Rest des Geschäftsmodelles punkto Flexibilität weit hinten nach.

Which translated means: "BTW my "G - wie Gummi" slogan refers to the most flexible business aspect at LGB: adherence to scale and uniformity of scale. From my experience and from what our dealers tell us, the rest of LGB's business model is by far not as flexible."
Well, anytime one can get a German modeler to laugh so hard that his eyes tear, you can assume that it must have hit the right spot. [;)][;)][;)] And when he posts as much on a forum, it makes up for quite a bit of the "Spin" certain mfgs put on the scale topic. [;)][;)][:)][:)]

[Curmudgeon]

Gander up?
Re-invent nomenclature?

[TonyWalsham]

Tom,
Don't you start trying to re-invent the wheel too.
Repeat after me.
"It is not "G" Gauge!!! It is # 1 Gauge".

Like Jack says and I agree with him actually.
Accurate scale seems to be of little importance.

The manufacturers can make their toys in any scale they like.
I, and a large number of other LS'ers won't buy them unless they are to a particular scale that I need.
I may find the robustly constructed and extremely smooth running LGB models suitable for conversion to a scale that does appeal to me.
Personally I can never understand why they don't build them to scale anyway.
Surely it will maximise the market potential. Especially to those coming up from the smaller scales.
However, for those coming out of Hi-Rail "Tin Plate" I can understand they are not fussed. I guess that is the market LGB, AristoCraft and USA Trains are after as that is what they know best.

What gets my gander up is the attempt to re-invent nomenclature to suit corporate marketting and BS claims by some manufacturers as to scale accuracy of what are non scale toys, also in an attempt to aid marketting.

[Tom The Brat]

The trick to scale in G gauge is to decide what you're modeling with your 45mm track.

A 3ft narrow gauge? 1:20.3

A meter guage? 1:22

Standard gauge? 1:29 or 1:32 if you're rich and finicky.

[whiterab]

Yes Tom, the flak wars are fun for those of us that have settled in to what we want to do and don't give a flip about what expectations others have.

I just worry that someone new to the hobby is going to take the word battles seriously and be turned off by all of the negative comments. Too easy to get caught up in details and to loose track of the fact that this is supposed to be enjoyable.

If I had gotten a lot of this advice before I started the hobby, I probably would have stuck to building boats[:D]

[Tom The Brat]

QUOTE: Wow, didn't mean to get everybody going!

Fun, isn't it?[:-,]

[Bucksco]

>>So, while it would be great if manufacturers did a much better job of stating their scale, the bottom line is that it's really not as important as we really like to think it is. <<

K,
You better put your flak jacket on!

[Anonymous]

If it runs on small radius 45mm track then its OK by me. I just wi***here could be commonality of nomenclature so that I (maybe 'we') would know what particular scale is under discussion.
For example the LGB chart referred to earler by Jack Lynch makes no mention of 16mm or 00 gauges but I expect they are there somewhere!

John

[kstrong]

QUOTE: Wow, didn't mean to get everybody going!

However, I thank everybody for their input! I kinda understand everything a bit better now.

Richard, please tell me what medications you're currently taking. If you've managed to make sense of all this, then you're clearly on a good mix. I'd like to patent it, and put my daughter (and the rest of her graduating class) through college. She graduates in 2023 [;)]

As you've discovered, the issue of scale and gauge as it applies to trains running outdoors is a very confusing mess, with no real clarity. A vast majority of garden railroader operate on the "if it looks good to me, I run it" theory of operation. To that end, the actual scale of a model means little, and the manufacturers delight in this, despite some making models to very specific--if a bit oddball--scales.

Those with calibrated eyeballs don't particularly worry about the scale of a model either, since they generally know the sizes of prototype equipment, and merely measure a particular model to see how it scales out in their particular chosen scale. For instance, the Delton/Aristo Classics hopper car is stated to be 1:24, but scales out almost perfectly for a Billmeyer and Smalls (prominent narrow-gauge carbuilder) hopper car in 1:20.3.) Bachmann's stated 1:22.5 generic box car scales out almost perfectly for different prototypes in 1:29, 1:24, 1:22.5 and 1:20.3.

So, while it would be great if manufacturers did a much better job of stating their scale, the bottom line is that it's really not as important as we really like to think it is.

Run what you think looks good together, be it LGB, Bachmann, Aristo, whoever. If, later on, you decide you want to focus on one particular era or specific scale, sell off what you no longer run, and buy more equipment that meets your needs. That's the beauty of this hobby.

Later,

K

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Capt Bob Johnson

HJ
One of these days you're gonna give that poor man apoplexy! He's just doing his job! As my late father said, "we're all whores, if the price weren't right we wouldn't be working there!".

I'm like Marty, all 1:29, and perturbed that structures and autos and people are hard to find in 1:29!

My thing is that to me it just seems that anything they do comes out looking european, no matter the origin!

Bob,

Jack is not that easily thrown for a fit.[;)][:)] I know he's doing his job, but that's no reason to revise history.

You're right, the lack of accessories in 1:29 is a real bummer. It would take someone like Walthers to grab a hold of the opportunity for structures and things.
Either that or provide the European mfgs with drawings, detail photos and all the good stuff to produce some real NA structures, instead of slightly altered Euro stuff.

[Anonymous]

Wow, didn't mean to get everybody going!

However, I thank everybody for their input! I kinda understand everything a bit better now.

Cheers,
Richard

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kellis

............................................................... I was thinking of switching but I kinda like this old Pola building I have and it would be a shame to waste that $120

Richard,

Unless it says 1:22.5 on the box and you know the prototype, it may be smaller.

POLA makes several buildings of which the prototypes are located in the Grisons (the area I model) and since I have a lot of the prototype info, especially railway structures, I know that those buildings are not 1:22.5 scale.

When in doubt I'm from Missouri.[;)][:)][;)]

[Curmudgeon]

Ah, but you said "Gauge".
There is a difference between "scale" and "gauge", which, if you'll go back to the top, you will see that's what this thread is all about.

And, rather than doing "marketing", at least someone listed the different "scales" on the gauge.

[Bucksco]

Sorry Tony I was not aware that Marklin produced weather resistant equipment designed to run outdoors. I do believe that EPL was the first company to mass produce large scale trains designed specifically to run outdoors (sealed gearboxes, UV resistant plastics, etc....)
I'm not talking scale or gauge but rather G as is Garden railway (built specifically for outdoor running).

[Curmudgeon]

This is funnier than a politian.

Let's say someone invents a 4-wheeled, gasoline-powered, people conveyance, and call it a "mover".

Many years later, someone else looks at it, same 4-wheels, gasoline engine, calls it an "automobile", and claims to have invented it.

Sorry, Jack, Wolfy didn't "invent" it, he "re-introduced" it.
Like Tony said, it's the distance between the rails.
The STANDARD, now accepted by the NMRA, was set by G1MRA just after the second world war, a TAD before LGB decided to "invent" it.

Marketing, huh?

"Tony,
Marklin invented #1 gauge
Wolfgang and Eberhard invented "G" gauge. G gauge is what LGB practices.
G is for Garten- I wouldn't run Marklin outdoors!

HJ,
The key words are "generally 1:22.5"
This post has been edited by Bucksco on Today, 19:59:29"

Love it.

And, if you want to know scale, frequency, any of that, just ask...and you'll get "suitable for large scale", or "proprietary information", or some variation thereof.

[Tom The Brat]

I think I'll stay out of this fight[:-,]

[TonyWalsham]

Jack,
With respect, the gauge is the distance between the rails. 45mm is the gauge in general use in the USA.
If you are referring to the scale I will agee that LGB popularised 1:22.5 running on # 1, 45 mm gauge, as "G" scale.
However, as well respected in the field of Toy Trains as LGB is, even LGB did not "invent" 1:22.5 scale.
That dates from pre WW2 and is used to represent mainline prototypes running on, if I am not mistaken, 64 mm gauge # 2.

As to not running Maerklin 1:32 models outdoors.
A number of my customers would be surprised to learn that you would not do it.
They do so with great success, and gave done so for many years. Granted they do not use LGB track as that is too coarse for reliable operation with Maerklin equipment.

[Bucksco]

Makes my brain hurt but it's nothing I would stroke out over! [;)]

[Capt Bob Johnson]

HJ
One of these days you're gonna give that poor man apoplexy! He's just doing his job! As my late father said, "we're all whores, if the price weren't right we wouldn't be working there!".

I'm like Marty, all 1:29, and perturbed that structures and autos and people are hard to find in 1:29!

My thing is that to me it just seems that anything they do comes out looking european, no matter the origin!

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TonyWalsham

Jack,
What is with this "G" Gauge thing.
There is no such gauge as " G" Gauge.
It is # 1 Gauge and has been for over 100 years. Ever since Maerklin invented it.

Or, is it LGB trying to re-invent the wheel? So to speak.

Tony, [;)][:D][;)]

Good point!

I personally believe that Jack and some others at LGBoA and EPL keep repeating the same mantra over and over in the vain hope that one day we all believe them and forget about what the real history of Large Scale including garden railways is!

Anyone who believes that 1:22.5 scale is called "G" by anyone but LGB and the hoodwinked NMRA has either a very selective memory, didn't do enough research yet or is completely NA centric i.e. doesn't have a clue who established which standards and when.

And yes Virginia, there are people like that!
In German there is a very precise expression on that syndrome: "Dumm geboren, nichts gelernt und das auch noch vergessen!" (Born stupid, didn't learn anything and forgot that as well!)

There are plenty of sites on the Internet that cover the whose standards when, just like there are plenty of sites that reference the NEM Standards.

Jack, my friend, have you ever contemplated the fact that LGB - a German company - couldn't/wouldn't follow the NEM standards (the defacto Standards of European model railway manufacturers)? Strange isn't it!?!? [}:)][;)][}:)]

BTW you know every year I tackle one special project. One year it was to prove to the rabid LGB crowd on MLS that things weren't to scale as advertised. Really hard to refute numbers nicely arranged in orderly columns which relate to each other. That was with RhB items.
Perhaps the special project for this year is doing LGB NA items, get the samples from our dealers on a rotating basis, measure and then put them on on eBay, I could even provide a "Scale Certificate" with each item. [;)][}:)][;)][:D][:D][:D]

PS Of course the first place I will publish results is an my own NA Rails forum - it's a German language forum for those who model NA "stuff" from Canada to Mexico. [;)][:)][;)]

[Marty Cozad]

In the 4 clubs that I'm in, very few care about SCALE.
I care, but thats just me. I don't know why you'd want any thing other than 1:29???

[Bucksco]

Tony,
Marklin invented #1 gauge
Wolfgang and Eberhard invented "G" gauge. G gauge is what LGB practices.
G is for Garten- I wouldn't run Marklin outdoors!

HJ,
The key words are "generally 1:22.5"