For those who desire one to "spark it up" with controversy!!!

[Anonymous]

Recently my Daughter, Micaela, was given a book 'bout Thomas the Tankengine. While I was reading it to her, my brother, Anthony, came over into the room and made the following comment...

"How can you stand to look at those ugly trains?"

By this, of course, he meant...er...foreign trains. He was, as that I don't want to step on any of my friends' toes, suggesting that American trains (with four axles and that certain something that makes them "American") were superior to the railroads and equipment of Europe et al.

I have a love for all trains, but as I have said before, I prefer American Models because I like the nostalgia factor of it. To "break up" the lull, lets hammer this out.


Debate Topic:

Resolved: That there exists distinct characteristics that define what is an "American" train, and that Large Scale trains based on these "American" trains are significantly more pleasing that those based on "non-American" ones.

Lets have a good clean debate, we not need to destroy international friendships over debates. I cherish all of you and do not want to risk said friendships, but please don't be affraid to be pasionate in your points of contention!

I'll let you guys begin the first salvo, then I'll chime on in (as not to further influence your posts!)

Have at it!!!!
Capt Carrales

[tangerine-jack]

I must break with my countrymen and vote for European trains. I say this because the Euros have what I call "character". They look like toy trains running through Swiss Alps etc. and have a touch of whimsey (dare I say "Disney"). Not to say that they are not at all hard working and functional, just nicer to look at than our US, no frills equipment. Perhaps it is the familiarity of seeing US trains daily that make the Euros more apealing. [oX)]

[Anonymous]

Hi guys, I have always loved American railroads. But Thomas the tank? do you mean that American railroads don't talk??!! Every Brit kid has been brought up with Thomas for years, it's an institution. The majority of our preserved railways have Thomas weekends and if you listen carefully you can hear them all talking to each other. Honest!![;)]
Chers,
Kim
[tup]

[tangerine-jack]

OK, kimbrit, now I used to live in Glasgow and Blackpool and I know dang well that any noise you hear from a British loco is the sound of it's parts falling off. You guys don't make telvisions or watches because you can't figure out how to make them leak oil!!!!! On that subject, I am also a huge Dr. Who fan as well, but what's up with those cheap (even for the Chinese) special effects? Can anybody seriously be scared by a sock puppet? BTW- Peri is hot!

(just kidding! no hate mail please!!!)[oX)][(-D]

[Anonymous]

T Jack,
If you've lived in Blackpool that almost makes you a fellow seasider with sand in yer veins!! Our gas televisions are the best in the world and our watches are so good there's only us can understand them - remember we used to calculate everything in 12's. 12 inches to the foot, 12 pennies to the shilling and 12 hour markings on a watch face. It's natural for us mate!! Don't tell Thomas that his parts are falling off!!! His whistle will go all squeaky!! Now for the old Doctor Who joke about who's that?, well it's Doctor Who, who?, Doctor Who, who?....................fall about laughing. Nothing wrong with cheap special effects either, I've still got a loco with some fitted!! and if that sock puppet has cheap special effects and it's doing a Rod Hull/Emu to you then you're in serious s**t mate!!
Cheers,
Kim
[tup]

[Anonymous]

I guess I am new school cause I can still feel the times when any of the GPs rushed passed me and what feeling I felt.
As for steam all I can do is watch on TV because I am abit home bound because of my illness[V]

Thomas the Tankengine
Barney
Homies
and a bunch of others I don't pay any mind to

[grandpopswalt]

I agree with Jack. Euro steam trains are more interesting looking than American. They're colorfully painted and yes, they do seem to have more character. But I love my US prototypes! I've visited dozens of steam train museum lines and have grown very familiar with them. The old brain says "now THAT"S what a steam train looks like!"

But in defense of things British, I own an 86 Jaguar XJ6 and consider it the most beautiful auto ever made. I absolutely love this car dispite the fact that I have to put in more oil than gas to keep it running. And how about those Lucas electrics? What in the world were they thinking about? The mechanical design was obviously done with an eye toward providing future generations of mechanics with almost unlimited employment. Just kidding. The car is a delight.

Walt

[Curmudgeon]

Brit locos are certainly different.
Other than the parts falling off and leaking (more on that in a moment) they hide all the piping under jackets, and even go so far as to put bicycle fenders over the drivers, and roofless cabs with "spectacle plates".
Plus they "drive" from the wrong side.
Then, you'd never catch them sounding like 4449, either.
Of course you've got the FroXs with their half-aXXed numbering system......our 2-8-2 would be called a 1-4-1......

As far as leaking (I said there would be more)......
I haven't run into a bigger bunch of double-speak folks since the Convention in Boston.

Gotta ban Ni-Cads, as the can pollute the earth!
So what do you read in the Brit train mags?
Keep your outdoor wood from rotting and control your weeds.....by trailing crankcase drippings on your wood and along the fenceline.

And this from the folks who brought us Lucas Electrics.....and the Cormorant Helicopters in Canada, and the "new" Canadian submarines....
Can't forget the Comet, either.

British Steam......favorite of cartoonists because of lack of detail.
I figure that's why there's a bunch of Model Railroaders on the island...not much detail to model.

Can you imagine of of the Brit MMR's trying to scratchbuild a Big-Boy?

(Now that I've got you all in a tither, I'll put the smiley face).

TOC

[vsmith]

Well it depends, BRITI***rains are definetly gorgeous, for proof pop in any Harry Potter cassette and check out the consist used for the Hogswart Express. Other European locomotives were for decades pretty ugly, though I have always had a soft spot for German steam engines. But for shear impressablity and power, its US hands down. THE most impressionable RR moment I have is having UP 844 blast past me 10 feet away at 50 mph racing up Cajon Canyon. Steam, Smoke, whistle blaring, feeling the heat as it ROARED by...Big engines make a Big impression....

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpopswalt



But in defense of things British, I own an 86 Jaguar XJ6 and consider it the most beautiful auto ever made.
Walt

Sorry Walt but THAT distinction has already been claimed by the Bugatti Type 35. [;)]

[tangerine-jack]

I've owned several Brit bikes (http://www.virginiasonsofgodmc.org/vabeachindex1.htm) and I agree that yes, Sir Lucas is indeed the Lord of Darkness. I don't understand Brit engineering, the designs are absolutely brilliant, simple and elegant, yet they have the villiage idiot make the blinkin' thing and the parts don't fit without a hammerwrench. What's up with the Whitworth threads? Metric not good enough then?

I still remember Basil, Blue Peter, Space 1999, UFO, Cpt Scarlet, Thunderbirds are Go, Eastenders, Upstairs Downstairs and Z-Cars. I think all those shows had a monthly budget of around 50p, but well written and fun to watch. If the sock-puppets don't scare you, then maybe an annoying squeaky voiced robot thingy with no arms and a xenophobic complex might, if it could get up the stairs! (Remebrance of the Daleks notwithstanding!!)

As for having sand in my veins, no, but I think I have some in my shorts! Core, 'avent 'ad a decent fish 'n chip since leavin' UK.[oX)]

[vsmith]

I'm OK with Fish-n-chips, but havent had decent Indian food since my last visit to London.

[bman36]

Hey guys,
Personally I favour North American iron. I recall lotsa' years back sitting at a crossing here in the city waiting for a westbound freight to head out. The gates were down and traffic was piled up behind me. (They have long since built an underpass) I had a close view with maybe 3 cars in front of me. I don't recall what the locos were but there were four big diesels. The train was very slowly inching ahead and was not quite at the crossing. My assumption was the engineer was wanting to get the whole train moving first based on what happened next. It was a hot summer day and I had shut the engine off after idling for a few minutes. Windows were wide open so I could listen. Once there was no more banging from the couplers tightening up I could see the grin on the brakeman's face. At that moment the engineer stabbed the throttle wide open and all four diesels began to thunder forward. Exhaust shot skyward and the roar filled the calm of the afternoon. My heart raced and I nearly came unglued as the train shot forward. YOU CAN"T BEAT GOOD OLD FASHOINED NORTH AMERICAN HORSEPOWER!!! Never since then have I seen a train accelerate that quickly. Was the engineer a bit of a nut??? Probably. I bet his adrenalin was keeping time with mine. The annoyance of being held up in traffic that day was long gone. This was a fine day. This also goes back a few years since there was a caboose on the train. By the time it passed and the gates went up that train was well over 65 miles an hour. Simply put...that was awesome. Never have I seen Thomas do that...and my kids have watched nearly all of them. Later eh...Brian. [:D][:D][:D]

[tangerine-jack]

I have the opportunity of seeing Norfolk Southern coal drags daily, usually at peak traffic hours and most often with 3 or 4 high end diesels pulling 200+ coal cars, Awesome to behold? yes, massive horse power?without a doubt as the earth literaly shakes with the might of Fortune 500, and yes even fully loaded the acceleration is unbelievable, but I'm bored with it. I like what I can't get to see every day, character (or is it caricature?)!

I'm sure that Thomas is more than capable of pulling one or two cars for his friends, but what would be his hurry? He lives in the UK and can only go so far before ending up in the ocean, and besides, it's probably raining and gloomy anyway. Not to mention his lack of any real traction from all the years of oil spewing onto the rails from his fine Old World crafted components, not that he could see anyway as his Lucas headlight is burned out or shorted. What would he do when he got to his destination, eat fine world famous British cuisine? Most likely he would end up in the Villiage being asked for information as his board number was changed to #6.

That enough controversy? Come on, I'm on a roll! Bring it on![oX)]

[Anonymous]

I'm not going to even start on this one
Sod the Briti***rains.Click on the link below for a beautiful piece of engineering from 1939.
Kim,you'll like this one.This is a recent picture of my Dads tram after it's restoration.
[code]http://members.lycos.co.uk/troybetts/hpbimg/Blackpool+11.jpg[/code]
Should go back into service at the museum next year.
Troy

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tangerine-jack

I must break with my countrymen and vote for European trains. I say this because the Euros have what I call "character". They look like toy trains running through Swiss Alps etc. and have a touch of whimsey (dare I say "Disney"). Not to say that they are not at all hard working and functional, just nicer to look at than our US, no frills equipment. Perhaps it is the familiarity of seeing US trains daily that make the Euros more apealing. [oX)]

I know people who serious have issues with the first part of what you mention, many people like the "industrial" look of the "American Railroad." Sometimes even with in American Railroads. My brother dislikes the 19th century decorative locomotives in favor of latter steam that was all black paint and spartan.

The "no frills" aspect might be due to the larger distances of empty space and flat prarie that make up so much of our nations rail lines. The frontier, a knod to Fredrick Jackson Turner, effected the culture of railroading, thus functional gave way to more practical.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kimbrit

Hi guys, I have always loved American railroads. But Thomas the tank? do you mean that American railroads don't talk??!! Every Brit kid has been brought up with Thomas for years, it's an institution. The majority of our preserved railways have Thomas weekends and if you listen carefully you can hear them all talking to each other. Honest!![;)]
Chers,
Kim
[tup]

I like Thomas the Tank, it reminds me of one of those old "Little Golden Books" I used to read as a kid. There was one called "Pano the Train" that, I think, was about a train in Greece that raced it's caboose down a hill. Anyone remember or heard of this?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tangerine-jack

OK, kimbrit, now I used to live in Glasgow and Blackpool and I know dang well that any noise you hear from a British loco is the sound of it's parts falling off. You guys don't make telvisions or watches because you can't figure out how to make them leak oil!!!!! On that subject, I am also a huge Dr. Who fan as well, but what's up with those cheap (even for the Chinese) special effects? Can anybody seriously be scared by a sock puppet? BTW- Peri is hot!

(just kidding! no hate mail please!!!)[oX)][(-D]

Lets keep the British out of the flinging and slinging. Everything in Great Britain is somehow different from its American counterpart, I think that is by design. The U.S. went out of its way to make differences in culture. But I believe that it was an English Statesman who once said... "Our culture, I'm affraid, is unalterable...," It was a lie!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tangerine-jack

I have the opportunity of seeing Norfolk Southern coal drags daily, usually at peak traffic hours and most often with 3 or 4 high end diesels pulling 200+ coal cars, Awesome to behold? yes, massive horse power?without a doubt as the earth literaly shakes with the might of Fortune 500, and yes even fully loaded the acceleration is unbelievable, but I'm bored with it. I like what I can't get to see every day, character (or is it caricature?)!

I'm sure that Thomas is more than capable of pulling one or two cars for his friends, but what would be his hurry? He lives in the UK and can only go so far before ending up in the ocean, and besides, it's probably raining and gloomy anyway. Not to mention his lack of any real traction from all the years of oil spewing onto the rails from his fine Old World crafted components, not that he could see anyway as his Lucas headlight is burned out or shorted. What would he do when he got to his destination, eat fine world famous British cuisine? Most likely he would end up in the Villiage being asked for information as his board number was changed to #6.

That enough controversy? Come on, I'm on a roll! Bring it on![oX)]

Since I have never ventured to Brittania would some one of knowledge please let me know, is Thomas the Tank Engine an fair picture of British Railroading? What is the main difference in these "old world" technologies and those operation in America?

[Anonymous]

This is one that should make everyone happy. Dubbed the "French Aristocrat" by crews, it was being tested by the Pennsylvania Railroad. Imported in kit form, it operated on the Atlantic City run of the West Jersey & Seashore Railroad, a PRR subsidiary, in 1904.

Regards,
Bill C.
South Jersey

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chestnut226


This is one that should make everyone happy. Dubbed the "French Aristocrat" by crews, it was being tested by the Pennsylvania Railroad. Imported in kit form, it operated on the Atlantic City run of the West Jersey & Seashore Railroad, a PRR subsidiary, in 1904.

Regards,
Bill C.
South Jersey

Say, that is nice! The only thing that I find "odd" is the cab and the siderods, but I could live with it. Nice shine, is the coal tender also part of it (do they come as one) or is it of another model?

[Anonymous]

Capt., that's the real thing... 1:1,... 12 inches to the foot. It was brought over unassembled from France and put together in the Altoona shops of the PRR. It was an example of the DeGlenn steam compounding system. Hope that clarifies it.

Regards,
Bill

[tangerine-jack]

Hey, all, just kidding about the transatlantic jabs, OK? Only trying to "spark it up". I lived in the UK for several years and I like it a lot. I might even retire to Ireland or Wales. Please don't take me seriously! I don’t intend to demean or minimalize our European cousins’ contributions to railroading or culture in general. If not for the bravery of a certain British soldier, I may not be here today. Besides, if we can’t laugh at ourselves, then we will be laughed at by a total stranger…………….

I think the big difference between New and Old world engineering is tradition. We here in the US have always had a love affair with powerful machines, just look at 2004 ‘Vett, is that really necessary? We got huge locos with a gazillion horsepower pulling hundreds of cars thousands of miles with nary a sweat. We produced the Hemi and the Space Shuttle, Big Boy articulated locos and plasma TVs. American traditions are bigger and more power, at lower cost and greater reliability. Europeans would rather put a curly-queue on some sheet metal as opposed to making the thing more powerful. Different philosophies, neither is right or wrong. I like the European designs, sure they have a lot to be desired in our eyes, but I like them nonetheless. Again, don't take me too seriously, OK?[oX)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chestnut226

Capt., that's the real thing... 1:1,... 12 inches to the foot. It was brought over unassembled from France and put together in the Altoona shops of the PRR. It was an example of the DeGlenn steam compounding system. Hope that clarifies it.

Regards,
Bill

Yes, Yes...[:D]I know it is 1:1, but the tender looks as if it might not be a match to the loco. The tender looks more, "frontier/industrial" American.

[Anonymous]

Would an HO gauge outdoor railway be practical, considering weather,etc. conditions on the track ?

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Neely Bryan

Would an HO gauge outdoor railway be practical, considering weather,etc. conditions on the track ?

John


Welcome to the forum.[8D]

This topic should be reposted as a new topic in its own right and not buried in another thread like this. I say this so you get the most readership and the most responces.[:D]

Please repost it as its own topic and you'll get some answers, short answer, yes it can be done but it has its own very special issues....[;)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tangerine-jack
, Sir Lucas is indeed the Lord of darkness[X-)]

YOU SAID IT BROTHER! I restored a 75 MG Midget only 28,000 on the clock
( Odometer) It was the first year for them to use a electronic distributor, needless to say it has a 74 or older points type to keep it running, I spent more time fixing electrical than doing the body and paint!

European locos, their intresting.

Prime example of fixing up british stuff to appeal to americans AC Cobra need I say more[:D]. Cool british AC sports car body big detroit Iron to power it.

[Anonymous]

Here is a bit of a broadside form another country.

1/ I dislike American G scale trains as they appear grosse to me. You would be lucky to give me one; however having said that i would kill to own a maroon LGB Mogal 29192, with full digital control, smoke and full digital sound ( retail in Aus $ 2,000 plus) yes and I would pay that for one if I could get Doreen to agree. I think Mikado's are the pits just about useless to operate on a normal backyard track.

2/ Briti***rains don't do much for me either, nothing can come near an LGB DR Mallet for power qnd sheer class.

However in the real world I would like to hear from anyone about a train that will equal the mighty Australian "Ghan". It goes from Adelaide to Darwin a distance of 3000 KM in three days, pulling a comprise 3 km long. It is not a dream from the past, it is a new train on a new track crossing a continent from south to north and it has the longest straight strech of north south line in the world. Guess where the longest and second longest stretch of straight rail is, across the Nullabor Plains, thousands of kms and no trees.

So if you want to talk about real mens trains think about the Ghan.

It has passenger carriages as well, and you can party all the way if you like as well.


Rgds


Thunder from Down Under.

[Anonymous]

This has been a pretty good break in the lull! 27 posts in 24 hours. Ozzie trains, what characteristics do they have? I have seen that they are a bit of a mixture between American and European models. Is it envronmentally generated (i.e. the terrain effects the trains) or based on traditional models?

[Gary Crawley]

As Ian said trains in Australia are vey unique.
Mostly of US and GB design they were often built in Australia to suit our harsh conditions. Hot and dry, (long distance between water) Large ruling Grades etc.

Speaking of ruling grades an example is the branch line between Wollongong and Moss Vale NSW. (steepest standard gauge line in Australia) It is still in everday use by coal trains and a 4 day a week steam service.
The steam service is hauled by locos from 3801 limited (diesel in fire periods) and is called the "Cockatoo Run"

The most awesome experience you can have is to position yourself half way up the mountain and watch a fully laiden coal train (1000 tons plus) creep down at 5 MPH on full breaks (the squeal is deafening) at the same time 3801 (3801 is a Pacific that holds the Australian steam speed record between Newcastle and Sydney, NSW 100 MPH plus) is pulling its 8 car consist up at about the same speed (slipping all the way) sparks from the drivers, pressure valve lifting all the time as Engineer and fireman struggle to keep the beast moving.
AWESOME.

I don't care where a LOCO is built if it,s WORKING for a living (Steam, Diesel or Electric)
there's nothing better.
Remenber "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"
That,s what I,m trying to re-create in my Garden Railroad. (heaven)
For our overseas friends have a look at this web site.

http://www.3801limited.com.au/

Regards
Gary