I guess no ones ABLE to do it.....this thread kinda died after I asked that Question above......Right everyboby ?????
Byron
Well I for one can't tell you due to my own personal RR, I model Short Steam trains...but I'm pretty sure Marty and many that run on his line do...You may want to check a couple of other forums...
LargeScale Central and My LargeScale...Marty hangs out on MLS most of the time....ask him, he'll let you know...I don't see why it couldn't be done!
cale
my browzer has been a pain.
the amp hours is whats important, I have for years run 18 volt tool batt in a single battery car with 2 or 3 powered units pulling 50 cars or so.
Now my 13 car USA pass set. I have one batt/RC unit to run the locos ( in the baggage car)and the 2nd batt/ switched, because I don't run at night much since I got afraid of the dark. runs my lights , no blinking. I installed some plugs I bought from Sir Tony (the RC God) and simple splice them into the under wires and pull out the drag pick ups for track power.
Battery cars are not stuck to the engine. I'm a heavy long hauler and the battery car belongs to the consist of which any group of locos can pull.
I think it would be funny seeing a steamer running w/o its batt car (the tender).
Hope this helps.
keep in mind, most all of us Batt/RC folks came from, track power (for 9 years in LS and for ever in HO scale) , so we KNOW about it.
BTY
I like batt cars because on my RR if a loco goes dead you can simply change out the batt at a station stop. in the locos, you'd have to go get another loco to bring the train in. plus its CHEAPER!!!!!! one RC car can run any locos I have.
Is it REAL? or Just 1:29 scale?
Long live Outdoor Model Railroading.
Thanx Marty,
For all the info here, I for now will stick with TP though.
As for the ol' com-pu-ta-tor, browser problem, I too been having some problems, tested Firefox, it worked fine, so I just dumped MS expl. and re-loaded it, Ok now.....
I just posted under garden discussions ( DCC in "G" large scale mainlines that are 500'+: reply) to empire ll lines post and I'm bragging cause now with the track powered up I can run everything perfectly. I invested in this system because after comparing all options ( and I own a digitrax 8A super chief) I felt this was the best bang for the lowest buck. I still can't believe the main problem was simply track noise but it was and a light bulb fixed it. I don't clean my track much but I'm indoors still.
Everyone I meet runs a different system. I'm counting the minutes till QSI releases their new sound decoder that will work on all systems. I'm not going to tell anyone who runs strictly battery that mine's better when I use my cordless tools to death and love them. I can understand the benefits. I just had to figure out why so many told me G scale track power was bad when it worked for my HO so perfectly.
DCS has many advantages and I'm staying with it even outdoors when I expand. DCC is going to run on the outside loop cause I already own it. I might just brag someday that a battery train is runnin' too!
Joe thats great, I love seeing you having fun. matter of fact i think you'll have so much fun with G that you'll sale off all the HO.
I did that when I started rr #2. my first 3 rrs was track power till we moved here 10 years ago(rr #4).
Its growing pains....
PS, you know, its even easier out here to change sidings or add main lines than indoors. we don't have to rebuild bench work and replaster sections of mountains and to creat winter scenes is simple.
The Home of Articulated Ugliness
cabbage wrote:I have waited until I was able to repeat some qualitative tests....My Question... Does/has anyone, in the battery arena, tried to design/come up with a way to "say" run a consist of 18 of Charlie Ro's, USA Trains, streamlined passenger cars, strait from the factory, lit up with batteries???? Behind a set of ABBA F-3's with a 2-K-2 Phoenix installed also, ALL.......BATTERY POWERED????Please let me know if this is possible, what I mean here "is" are you doing it right now?? My question is, not how would you suggest that it be done, but is anyone out there doing it right now....Powering a consist as I've described with RC and BATTERIES????
Say Ralph,
First, let me provide you a bit more information I had posted on another page somewhere on the forum.
This Consist is run with track power, using a state-side, commercially made, "Bridgewerks" Model TRD-25 power pack/system, rated at an output of 25 amps , 30 volts DC. This unit has digital read-out amp/voltage meters.
I powered this train consist to 20 to 22 volts and the Amp meter showed a draw of 22 to 24 amps. The train was moving at about 60 miles per hour scale speed, what's that about 75-80 KPH ?
cabbage wrote:This cannot be answered because it does not rely on Mathematics, Physics, or Chemistry. If you could sit down, work out the power requirements that this would need then -the answer would be self evident... I design multimillion pound computers, the emergency back up supply for which are large Sealed Lead Acid Batteries -which keep it going while the first of the FIVE diesal generators kicks into operation...I have also designed and built my own RC system for my locos and I abandoned it as it was not required -a simple DPDT switch and PWAM gave me what I needed.regardsralph
This cannot be answered because it does not rely on Mathematics, Physics, or Chemistry. If you could sit down, work out the power requirements that this would need then -the answer would be self evident... I design multimillion pound computers, the emergency back up supply for which are large Sealed Lead Acid Batteries -which keep it going while the first of the FIVE diesal generators kicks into operation...I have also designed and built my own RC system for my locos and I abandoned it as it was not required -a simple DPDT switch and PWAM gave me what I needed.regardsralph
My REAL Question WAS/IS---- has anyone or is anyone running anything comparable to this train RIGHT NOW, on a regular basis, for good stretches of time----TWO HOURS OR LONGER AT A TIME. Not did you push a youngster 10 20 30 40 foot or so, for 60 seconds, or build a computer the size of what ever, powered by batteries......
What I am really getting at here is----- I would really consider battery power if it could/is being done, and for how much COST.....
I don't see how it could be done reasonably priced or accomplished with this type of amperage draw for any amount of time.
repling here is almost not worth it, it takes so long for the items to load up before you can start typing.
Anyway, its all about your running habits. If you want to run 18 cars and have the room, then its worth it.
I have an older U tube video that shows the passenger all lite running as the sun sets
search
NTCGRR
and you can see it.
I don't have a current one with 3 units and all the cars,,,,yet.
lead car has battery for each end.
FYI
As a self emlpoyed person who can't spell,,hehhehe. free time is valuable. I come home from a long day, slap a battery in a charger, eat supper, then come out to relax for an hour or so. trains are always ready, watch for sticks the first time around then sit in the gazebo. maybe hour or so of walking around messing with the RR, I park the train.
Theres no work. it was all done ahead of time.
BTY, if I buy an engine ,I'm not so nuts that I "have to " run it that moment out of the box, they get Kadees, weathering, wiring. (which IS playing with your engine hands on.)
I forgot to call you ,sorry
cabbage wrote:Well, lets start off with some simple Physics shall we?You have stated that this particular combination draws 22Volts at 22Amperes, this gives a rating of 484Watts or 0.649Horse power (DIN) for your loco. I have to ask myself A: How are the motors dissipating this much heat? B: What are the transmission losses before the power actually reaches the wheels of the loco? The question you have not asked here, (or provided the information for), is: "How much power do I actually need to propel this combination?" R.M Brades B.Ed B.SC M.I.A.A.P. PhD
Yes, I do believe I have already asked that question....... By the fact that I've asked, IS ANYONE DOING THIS RIGHT NOW, WITH BATTERIES.......
SO THAN I'LL ADD THIS NOW.
TELL ME, HOW YOU ARE DOING IT ???? ALSO, HOW BIG ARE YOUR BATTERIES ?
I'm not a Professor, Physics major, nor an Engineer. I Don't have a Phd, Sheeps Skin, or noth'in, just bearly a HS diploma.
I'm just a Grease Monkey by trade, an had to drop that back about 95 due to health.
So lets just keep it simple, and just tell me, if you are doing something similar to what I've asked ??? OK.
So far no one has said strait up, yes I am running a consist of Charlie Ro's USA engines and passenger cars, similar to you, all on battery power, and here is how I've been able to accomplish that.........OK, Ralph.....
SEE LIKE THIS HERE....>
I think it could be done! If Marty is pulling 50+ cars with his diesels, why not a dozen+ Heavies with a Steamie? If you knew the weight of one of his cars, then multiplied it by 50....compare the weight against your possible consist...that'd be a pretty good comparison...
for powering your consist....you could Place your traction batt in the tender and another in the Baggage...Tender is Batt 1, Baggae is batt 2...Use batt 2 to power lights and b/u batt 1...I'd say 18vdc would do it to drive the locomotive...
Again , I think it could be done w/o too much work, but then again I'm the Battery Mafia Propaganda Chief
btw, have I seen your layout before, not in person, but from some picutres from GN Rocky? Looks familiar?
calenelson wrote: cale btw, have I seen your layout before, not in person, but from some picutres from GN Rocky? Looks familiar?
cabbage wrote:As Requested:Now, I have done as you have requested -now go and weigh some carriages and locos please and then we can work out how much power is required to run your combination. regardsralph
It's not my intention to be disrespectful or anything, nor to get a thread locked......
That said......I really don't know or quite follow your line of reasoning here....
TOO....might I ask ??? If my memory serves me right....
Was it not, YOU, who were responding to some requests/questions that I brought up awhile back, here on this Forum, in reference to the MTH, that's Mike's Train House----DCS system, that's Digital Command System ???
I don't know nothing about what is available across the pond. And if infact you too do not have, nor really know what is available, here state side, than the advise given might just all be in vein. Know what I mean....
I'm just trying to keep it simple and non-controversial, and directed to those out there who may have access to the USA trains similar to what I have and am operating.
Thanks Anyway, Byron F. Custer
Call the peoples who makes dem machines, you know.....
Toad
Ralph,
I'll get back to you on this, at a later time, OK
cabbage wrote:I will be polite about it too...A: How much power is used by the locomotive(S) to drag your combination around? UNKNOWNB: How much power is pumped into your track? KNOWN 482WattsFor some reason (as yet unrevealed) it is taking VAST amounts of power to run your combination. I cannot understand why you are pumping this amount of power into your track without cooking the locomotives or the electronics -remember most soldering irons are only 15 to 25Watts(!)regardsralph EMPIRE II LINE wrote: Yes it's already been suggested, change the car lighting to LED's...."Ever disassemble one of those cars??" I think....let's not think about that......Byron
EMPIRE II LINE wrote: Yes it's already been suggested, change the car lighting to LED's...."Ever disassemble one of those cars??" I think....let's not think about that......Byron
Yes it's already been suggested, change the car lighting to LED's...."Ever disassemble one of those cars??" I think....let's not think about that......
Well I'm Back Ralph,
I thought it might do well to try and drop back to your earlier question here, and give you some kind of a (revelation). Also, I'd like to ASK you, are you familiar with any of this equipment that I am describing ? Specifically the USA extruded aluminum Passenger cars....?
SO NOW, First of all, I might try and help, "YOU" to understand, (reveal to you), the reason for all of the "power consumption", maybe a better description, the "Amperage/Volage", being used/consumed/required, or should I say, as shown as being used, on the digital read-outs of the "Bridgewerks" power pack, to run this consist: 4-USA, F-3's, ABBA, with Pheonix sound card installed, pulling 18 lighted 32 inch long, aluminum passenger cars.
Let me also remind "YOU", once again, I am not a "rocket scientist" with all kinds of Phd's, Msd's, Lsd's, stroids, or even a Sheeps Skin, for that matter, as I've already said, "I", ONLY, bearly have, a HS (HIGH SCHOOL) diploma.
I am just a "PO BOY", originally from the otherside'a the tracks in Akron, Ohio. With a bit of Vo-Tech Electronics training, and a "Few" years of model railroading experience. I've also picked up a "Few" other things, along the way, through the "LIFE OF HARD KNOCKS".
DO "YOU", Understand now, RALPH......
May "I" EMPHASIZE NOW, that as "I" SEE IT.......... The HUGE power consumption, AS "I" SEE IT, is because of, all of the incandescent light bulbs inside of the 18 passenger cars.
And "I" am not really interested, nor desirous of replacing all of the bulbs with LED's....At this juncture....See my earlier quote please.....
SOOOOOOO NOW.....The real problem here .....EMPHASIS AGAIN, AS "I" SEE IT..... with battery power............ IS.......not what power/amperage, do the engines require.........only..... To power them......BUTTTTTTTTTTT.....How LARGE the ADDITIONAL batteries would need to be,,,,,,,, just to power all of the incandescent lights in the 18 passenger cars as well.....or even, HOW MANY....more batteries..........would be required ????
Please take the time to read my original QUESTION..... I already know that "MANY" people are already using Battery Power for their engines, to pull long freight trains, as well as shorter passenger trains, right NOW.....also in Narrow Gauge operations.
BASIC ORIGINAL QUESTION: HAS/IS anyone doing it (operating a consist similar to the one described) right NOW, or figured out a way to do it, at a reasonable cost, in the battery arena though ???
SO NOW, if YOU still want to persist with your calculations.....Each car weighs in at, about 12 Pounds, (just a bathroom scale used), I'll let YOU do the transfer to Kilos.....All made of extruded aluminum with cast trucks, wheels, and couplers.....Plastic ???? Maybe only a pound per car....I'd guess.....
Cheers???
We all, CAN, get our "Hoofe" stuck !!!..... in a "Rut" at times. This hobby has lots of room for any to model what ever they choose and enjoy modeling, "I", for one, love to model and choose, as I've already said, that which "I" personally observed and enjoyed seeing as a child, growing-up, so do it !!!!
Ok, now I am stumpped....... BUT I do understand the racing packs and the power of so.
Stummped Toad
cabbage wrote:Thank you,Let us assume that you run 18 cars each of 12lbs in weight giving a total weight of 216lbs and a scale speed of 60mph. Note pounds here are used as "American Customs" and not pounds "Avoir Dupois"This gets converted to metric to produce:Mass = 97.97Kg Velocity = 2.06mS-1 Acc = 0.08ms2Therefore the power requirement to accelerate your train is: 97.97 x 9.81 x 0.08 = 76.88WattsRunning speed at 60mph (scale) is: 97.97 x 9.81 x 0.05 = 48.05WattsIf you remember the power developed by the motors in my Meyer was: 56.56Watts for a load of 38Kg or 1Watt per 0.671KgYour combination is 48.05Watts for 97.97Kg or 1Watt per 2.038KgAssuming a constant voltage of 18Volts then a number of NiCd "9.6V Tamiya Race Packs" @ 2400mAh should do the job. Personally I would use four.This gives a, (UK price), of 4 x £6.99 or USD$55 36centsQ.E.D.regardsralph
Well Done Chapp,
I'll indulge you a bit more.....
So now, let's say that does power the engines, OK.
Although I don't think it would, I have to run this consist at a voltage setting of 20 to 22 volts, NOT 18, to get the proper speed, otherwise it's only moving at about 40 MPH scale speed, I do have a regulated 18.6 V- DC power pack, also a "Bridgewerks", it does not properly run the train at a fast enough scale speed ........
Do those calculations take into consideration the 2K2 sound board also, also the radio receiver board?? Fact is, that these engines alone, not pulling any cars, the four of them alone, draw about 10 amps, at 20 to 22 volts, per the digital readouts.
I don't believe any of your calculations take into consideration the bulbs in the coaches either, so what would be required to power them for any length of time.....TOO!!!!!
Tell me now Ralph, just how long would the charge-up time be on the engine batteries you've suggested here, and also would you please tell me in simple terms how long would they run this set of engines, at the stated speed 60 MPH. For an hour ? Two hours ? Three or four hours, MAYBE, between charges ??
I can run all day on my track power system, I think that's longer than the Eveready BUNNY !!!!
I have spoken with Marty C. He does run a battery powered consist of 7 of these cars behind a set of ABA E-Units, that's a good bit shorter of a train than what I am running though.....Also the Aristo E's do pull less power too. Don't recall for sure, how long he said it'd run between chargings though.....
For now though I think with what I am doing and the fact that I am running on Stainless steel track, with little to no cleaning required, I'll stick with track power....
Byron Custer
ToadFrogWhiteLightn wrote: Ok, now I am stumpped....... BUT I do understand the racing packs and the power of so.Stummped Toad
An here I always thought you was just the TOAD.......A STUMP ALSO ????.......HMMMMMM.....
EMPIRE II LINE wrote: ToadFrogWhiteLightn wrote: Ok, now I am stumpped....... BUT I do understand the racing packs and the power of so.Stummped ToadAn here I always thought you was just the TOAD.......A STUMP ALSO ????.......HMMMMMM.....
Ok, I hang out at a stump from time to time. The stump gives me answers. But yet has not told me what Ralph was doing during WW2.
Well Ralph,
That's a good bit of figur'in how to maybe do it, BUTTTTT....as already mentioned.....not for me at this time.
I think I will just stick with what is pretty much working for me....track power.
An just continue to....... start-go forward-stop-reverse-stop-go forward-stop-idle-run four hours-blow the horn 50 time-stop-reverse-stop-unhook-pull forward-stop-back up-stop-high ball two more hours-ring the bell 40 times-blow the horn another 50 times-run slow for 40 minutes-stop.....and turn off the power pack.PERIOD..... end of a good day of running an sip'en.
Woow, is work getting busy. I looked at my computer clock, it took 50 seconds to load up all the items before I could reply.
any way I had a good chat with Byron on the phone, we could have talked for hours. But if I had his RR I'd do the same as he does. My running times are short because I love building the RR more than running it.
Battery is great for those who have had problems with track power and want to try another way.
I defend batt/RC mainly when I hear "false" things about it.
I was nine years a track power guy. till this RR.
As Forest Gump would say, "thats all I have to say about that!"
imrnjr wrote: O'kay.....I've been attempting to run track power, got hundreds of dollars of clamps, got cleaning cars, got a PITA every time I think about running.....Mark
O'kay.....I've been attempting to run track power, got hundreds of dollars of clamps, got cleaning cars, got a PITA every time I think about running.....
Mark
Okay Mark,
QUESTION IS, are you using Brass track ??? If so maybe that's your track power/clean PROBLEM. If you've been following this on going saga (Battery Discussion).
I've made the switch to Stainless Steel track, and DO intend to continue using my Track Power system, because for what I am doing it seems to be the best route to go. If you on the other-hand are planing to run smaller scaled train consists and mainly freight, than maybe ??? Yes, switch to a battery system.
Marty C. is especially a person well worth talking to about the pros of battery operation......
Byron C.
EMPIRE II LINE wrote: imrnjr wrote: O'kay.....I've been attempting to run track power, got hundreds of dollars of clamps, got cleaning cars, got a PITA every time I think about running.....Mark Okay Mark,QUESTION IS, are you using Brass track ??? If so maybe that's your track power/clean PROBLEM. If you've been following this on going saga (Battery Discussion). I've made the switch to Stainless Steel track, and DO intend to continue using my Track Power system, because for what I am doing it seems to be the best route to go. If you on the other-hand are planing to run smaller scaled train consists and mainly freight, than maybe ??? Yes, switch to a battery system. Marty C. is especially a person well worth talking to about the pros of battery operation......Byron C.
Byron -- et al.... sorry 'bout the delay in getting back to this thread, but have been busy adding in a couple of sidings for a stockyard and town on the railway.
To your specific question I'm running aristo stainless with a combination of SplitJaw and Aristo clamps. I think the biggest problem I've got now is I didn't use the clamps on both sides at every joint....so I get a cold spot at those joints with all the dirt from an unfinished garden and the way the track moves in the Texas weather 45 to 90 and back in the spring and 70 to 100+ in the summer. Then there is the dirt issue splashing up on the track and fouling the wheels or pickups on the locomotives as well......
But with the completion of the sidings work will start on the water feature and final landscaping will begin so much of the open dirt will get plantings or stone mulch which should minimize the splash effects.... and clamps are being used to eliminate those cold spots as they show up.
Now if I could just find the money to buy ...uh....uh...err..ummm.... my wish list is gettin' pretty dadgum'd long, so I think I'll concentrate on getting the railway near done..... and yeah I think I like building it more than running it!!!!
Thanks for the spirited information dispensed here!!
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