I find it interesting that prototype locomotives have the same behavior as the models with universal motors that Daan describes. Their series traction motors are larger versions of the traditional toy-train motors and, like them, provide no intrinsic braking. Unless, of course, the locomotive is equipped for dynamic braking, which requires rewiring the motors on the fly to serve as generators.
Here's the most recent topic on the subject of controlling speed uphill and down:
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1151451/ShowPost.aspx
Bob Nelson
Apart from the weird terminoligy I seem to use it's as you figured it out, frank. There is one problem with it. If you feed the center rail through a resistor, the train will descend slower, but also uphill it will get lower voltage. You could use a 2 position relais for it and wire it to your switchmachines, that way that the resistor is switched on when the train goes downhill and off when it goes uphill (combined by switch straight = no resistor, switch turned out = resistor on.)
The problem with postwar steamers not being regulatable downhill is something purely mechanical. An AC motor has a field and a rotor coil, no magnets. In any DC canmotor the magnets "stick" to the rotor when no power is supplied, reducing it's speed. (the reason why momentum flywheels are used; they avoid abrupt stops). On AC motors whithout power or with just a little power there is absolutely NO braking force apart from the friction in the gears. Steamers used straight gears, no wormwheel combination, and straight gears have very low friction. The low friction of the gears in combination with the lack of any braking force in the motor results in postwar steamers braking loose when going downhill.
The F3's, Alco's and even the turbine have wormgears which have a lot more friction when the wheels try to drive the gears the other way round. Those can be regulated (sort of) going downhill.
Thanks for your advice Bob.
Bob:
Your depth of knowledge in this area is most impressive, particularly to a wiring dork such as myself. If there is something I know nothing about (possible exceptions being brain surgery and nuclear fission) it is wiring.
I read the thread and it might as well be in Chinese. Any chance you have the "4 Dummies" version?
I am thinking there is a device that gets hooked up in line between the power source and the third rail. Is that basically true? What about the feed to the outer rail?
What I want to do is be able to have the power to the track be high enough so the train will ascend without straining and after it turns around and comes back it will descend the grade slower without throttle jockeying.
That is the way it works. But Daan's terminology is a little strange to me. The term "feeder" usually refers to the wires used to connect the track to the transformer, particularly when connected to a part of the track far from the transformer. I have never seen the word "variator". I think he means "rheostat", which is just a variable resistor. Lionel made 5-ohm rheostats, which are easy to find and cheap, but I would not describe them as triangular.
A modern alternative to the rheostat is a string of bridge-rectifier modules, which do not suffer from the voltage variation with load that Daan correctly described for resistors. These have been discussed extensively recently:
Using a Variac or multiple transformer outputs for this purpose is a bad idea and can be a fire danger.
so if I understand this correctly, the "feeder rail" is the center rail?
You isolate the center rail and feed power to that section through a resistor? The outer rail feed stays the same?
It's quite simple. The feeder rail is isolated on the top and the bottom of the incline. The resistor, variac or whatever you want to use to drop the power is between the feeder and the rails. The isolated part is the fed through the resistor instead of directly from the transformer and the voltage on the downhill section will be lower.
BUT if you go measure it with your voltmeter you won't find any difference. A resistor starts working when something uses power, so when a postwar train goes downhill the resistor will do it's job. The small triangle variators (same stuff as inside the white 25 watt resistors) have the advantage that they can be set to any value, so you don't need to buy several fixed ohm resistors to get the result you want.
A long time ago I use a 24 volts tranformer, a piece of plastic, and a lot of screws connected with resistors to power my layout. Every step "up" was one resistor less, resulting in a very primitive way of voltage regulation. The counterpart was that K-line engines with those small dc can motors in their trucks where not regulatable at all. They didn't consume any noticable power and then the resistors don't work..
Now I'm using a nice electronic Z750 from MTH, which is a lot more comfortable to use..(powered by a Märklin transformer)
daan wrote: I used those white 25 watt resistors from radioshack to power my layout with. Even 0.5 ohms gives a quite noticable speed drop.. You could also use a locomotive with cruise control on those declines, but postwar engines didn't have those I guess.
I used those white 25 watt resistors from radioshack to power my layout with. Even 0.5 ohms gives a quite noticable speed drop.. You could also use a locomotive with cruise control on those declines, but postwar engines didn't have those I guess.
How do you do that?
About that decline and the speed, on ebay there are those odd triangle shaped Lionel variacs for sale sometimes. Though not really an option to power a complete layout, you could use them to ease the trains going downhill. The section downhill is isolated and fed through the variator which can be set to a lower voltage.
2986:
That decline is just less than 3% in each direction. The minimum speed you need to ascend causes you to really roll on the downslope, which has steamers coming close to doing the two wheeler.
Get that slope as gradual as you can, or use bigger radius - you will have trouble coming in at 4% on o27.
ok grayson, this is sorta getting of topic here, im not gonna get into a ft vs tubular fight with ya. I am too cheap to buy fast track, hows that. I dont buy it because i cant afford it.
how about a no no being too steep of a grade going up. before i asked and knew the general rule of thumb on grade mine was like 8 or 9% not good, quickly realized my mistakes...
My current layout is on a 4x8. I recently put carpet on top of it, and I can barely here the sound of the track, and im pulling 10 cars.
Grayson
"Lionel trains are the standard of the world" - Jousha Lionel Cowen
Bad Planning idea # 6; ordering anything from a catalog from Lionel or MTH and expecting to see it before a year & a half passes. That is why I have quit ordering from any catalog!!
Lee F.
Yea, I havent been on in a while, if you read the Friday Night Chat thread you would understand.
Zeke, as far as fastrack being more costlier, look at your 2007 catalog. I know you like to buy your trains on ebay and yard sales, but the actual current retail price of a fastrack 072 switch is $80, while a O gauge 072 tubular switch is a retail of $115.
aww grayson...i was wondering were you were. Haven't heard from you in awhile.....
You know i really dont like fast track for two reasons: cost and noise.
I do like the fact of that its convienant, like if i wanted to put a little track down on the carpet or take some somewere to show a friend a little layout. but thats not enough for me to run out and buy some.
Them switches are really price. if id got started with fast track then maybe i would use it but i wasnt.
And frank i like this post alot. i did one of your no nos but that was before i saw this thread.
072 switch problem? Answer: Fastrack 072 switches.
My deep love with fastrack has led me to believe that people like zeke that use tubular, and always say tubular is better and that they hate fastrack, really like it. Like a person who likes another person will always deny it.
CSX- Chessie, Seaboard, and the X means many times more. Why cant fastrack and tubular be "many times more"? The look good together.
And Frank, wonderful post.
These are really finicky. I had to use this switch in order to keep the distance between tracks to a minimum, as #22 switches (o31) really extended out, but trains really jostle and jump through these. In addition, cetains engines will not make it through these at all - my post war 681 and 221 being two I had in mind for this level.
Truer words ne'er spoken. I have three, which I bought when I was new to the hobby, on my layout. They are coming out as soon as I have (a) a free weekend to tear them out and replace them with FT switches, (b) a spare $150 for FT switches and another $100 for various odds and ends, and (c) the patience to do it all. 0-72s are the albatross of the Lionel world.
Re the poster talking about putting track too close together, I have learned my lesson on that, too. On one curve on my layout two lines are JUST close enough for a jolly little collision that has already sent one extruded aluminum passenger car to the repair shop with stretched truck rivits.
Even the Mouse can expect some bad weather lately, hope the weather clears up for your friends! Also don't leave anything in plain site in the car or the window will be broken & the stuff removed by your Florida welcoming committee & found at a local pawn shop.
About the availability of Lionel products offered in the catalog, I have ordered some K-Line track now made by Lionel and am still waiting on the expected arrival date! Ordered it from My Rose Hobby Shop in Jupiter FL, called twice since ordering it and still no date as to when it may arrive.
Snow is a four-letter word to me, Lee.
My friends are going to Disney World. I hope the weather clears up for them. They have 2 little boys that are chomping at the bit to go!
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Jaabat,
For your friends flying in on friday all I can say is expect a delay at the airport!
This morning, thursday @ 9:15am 4-12-07, we had a tornado warning issued with possible hail stones. All I can say is the weather is a bit violent down here at times lately, could be global warming!
If you want to check the weather channel the postal zip code is 33465 or 33484.
Personally I would rather put up with the snow storms up north!
About the use of Fastrac or tubular track all I will add is to each his own!
phillyreading wrote:FasTrack is available in 36, 48, 60, 72 inch radii... that is 4 by my count and 84 and 96 are supposed to be on the way. The switches will eventually be available for everything up to 72 inches I believe...Brent,Didn't know that Fastrac was available in four sizes for curves as my favorate hobby store only carries two sizes in curves.Also GarGraves track is available in curve sizes up to 118 inches, and you can make your own curve sizes by using their flex-track, can't do that with Fastrac!Lee F.
FasTrack is available in 36, 48, 60, 72 inch radii... that is 4 by my count and 84 and 96 are supposed to be on the way. The switches will eventually be available for everything up to 72 inches I believe...
Brent,
Didn't know that Fastrac was available in four sizes for curves as my favorate hobby store only carries two sizes in curves.
Also GarGraves track is available in curve sizes up to 118 inches, and you can make your own curve sizes by using their flex-track, can't do that with Fastrac!
Lee, Lionel puts out a catalog twice each year. Believe it or not, all the different FasTrack is shown quite clearly!
FasTrack has its detractors, but I love it. No ballasting to do, great conductivity, and the switches are smooth and reliable.
phillyreading wrote: rtraincollector,I second your thoughts on GarGraves track and will add that GarGraves track has more choices for curve sections and switch options and needs only adapter pins to go to tubular track, no track space wasted. I use mainly GarGraves switches on my layout to keep down problems, had too many problems with Lionel switches in the past 12 years, so any switch that acted up got replaced with a GarGraves switch.For me Fastrac is too limited because of only two curve sizes and two switch sizes, needs an adapter track to go to tubular thereby wasting available track space on the layout.Lee F.
rtraincollector,
I second your thoughts on GarGraves track and will add that GarGraves track has more choices for curve sections and switch options and needs only adapter pins to go to tubular track, no track space wasted. I use mainly GarGraves switches on my layout to keep down problems, had too many problems with Lionel switches in the past 12 years, so any switch that acted up got replaced with a GarGraves switch.
For me Fastrac is too limited because of only two curve sizes and two switch sizes, needs an adapter track to go to tubular thereby wasting available track space on the layout.
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