rudedog,
If I were you I would first ascertain that each of the new transformers is a "newly revised" one. (I would be very surprised if the one dated 9/06 is not.) Then I would begin with a very basic hook-up with the red terminal to center rail and the black terminal to outside rail. Then connect it to a simple track (a few straight sections) and ascertain that the direction control works reliably and that the whistle/horn button and the bell button do what they are supposed to. If the direction button fails to operate correctly, add an illuminated caboose or a lamp or the like, and see whether that fixes it.
As you add accessories you should use the red accessory terminal as "power" and the black one as "common."
If all that works, then you can keep adding things one at a time until things go haywire again, bearing in mind that at some level you will overload the transformer. You've only got a maximum of five amps to play with. If you attempt to exceed that, the CW-80 should protect itself by going into "foldback mode," reducing the power, and flashing its green light continuously. You can safely ignore occasional flashes, particularly when accelerating a train. such as starting from a dead stop, but if throttling-back does not cause the green light to stop flashing, the controller is clearly overloaded.
Hope all goes well. Please post your results in detail.
NEW TRANSFORMERS ARE HERE
All three of my transformers were replaced with new ones. The one that I opened said 09/06.
Well, sports fans, after reading of "rudedog's" apparent success this morning, I called Lionel Customer Service -- and got skunked once again. I asked them to replace my two older-version, clearly out-of-warranty CW-80's,* and when that was turned down I offered to settle for just one. No dice.
The service rep asked why I hadn't asked for a replacement sooner, but when I pointed out that at the time that I bought these, Lionel had nothing to replace them with that wasn't equally defective (A and B posts as common, whereas U and U should have been) she had no answer.
I'm the first to admit that both of my CW's run my trains just fine, but the "common ground problem" is annoying, because it won't let me use the accessory terminals as intended. Today was hardly the first time that I have brought this to their attention.
One new twist today, however: while reiterating that Lionel doesn't repair them at all, she said that if I could find a service station that had experience repairing the older BW-80 transformers (the ones that employed a controller plus a separate power brick) they could easily re-wire a CW-80 and make it right. In fact, she described the difficulty of the process as "...that's nothing."
Well, many of us have all known for a long time that if one could get past the tamper-resistant screws, get the case off (and get it back together afterwards) there wasn't much to reconnecting a wire or two; but this is the first time in my several calls to Lionel that they ever suggested that some of their service stations might make such a repair.
She was kind enough to give me the phone numbers of a couple of possibilities in my area. At least she was civil, and unlike the rep from my most recent call, did not hang up on me. When I asked whether I could quote her she said yes. Heretofore, I have always been told that there was no repair service available for the CW-80 -- period. I did not ask what this wire-switching service might cost.
Those are today's facts. Brief discussion follows:
Here was yet another example of what I call "Lionel Logic." The rep puzzled that I hadn't asked for a repacement earlier; that is, back when the only replacements available all had exactly the same defect. It has only been in the past year (perhaps as little as the most recent 10 months) that they had revised models available. Well, duh!
If there is "nothing" to fixing the mis-wiring of the early CW-80's, why didn't Lionel tell us that from the beginning? Why did it take the better part of three years for the the Chinese manufacturer to stop doing it wrong and start building them right?
According to a recent post on the other major toy-train forum, the chief engineer at Lionel stoutly maintained for a matter of years that there was "no problem" with the CW-80 -- rather like what Chevy and Ford told us about the Corvair and the Pinto. I understand he is no longer with Lionel.
Some of you may have better luck than I did, but don't count on it. It may depend on whom you talk to; but I see no evidence of a change in the bleak "corporate policy" that has surrounded the CW-80 right from the get-go.
I believe that if you have an older version of the CW that is clearly out of warrantly, you have little recourse other than to try to find a repair shop to fix it at your expense. If you have an old version that is still under warranty, you may be able to get Lionel to replace it with one of the new, revised ones.
Lionel Customer Service seems fond of suggesting that customers write letters about their concerns. A month ago I did exactly that. I suggested that certain Owner's Manuals need prompt attention, particularly as they dealt with "the CW-80" (both versions), accessories, and the various special FasTrack sections. I addressed the letter to Jerry Calabrese himself. To date I have received no response -- not even an acknowledgement of receipt -- from either Mr. Calabrese or a "staffer," and no action or impending action is apparent. Big surprise.
* Dates of manufacture: 0603, 0405:
Congratulations! I'm surprised, but happy for you.
When you get your new one, aftermaking sure it's not just new but also one of the revised ones, please report back on how it handles your particular accessory-post load problem as described in your earlier posts.
Just got off the phone with a lady csr at Lionel...
No questions asked, she was typing up a return authorize request before I finished talking. She said they will take back all three of my 2004 dated CW80's and swap them out with new ones. Even gonna pay my shipping if I include the postage receipt.
As long as they are true to their word I will still be a Lionel fan. For me its more than just these transformers... I needed a boost like this cause with all the lawsuits and esp the downfall of K-Line, I was losing interest in trains and esp Lionel.
Only one other time did I use Lionel customer service and they were great that time as well. This time they have gone way above and beyond standing behind their product, as I thought they should have recalled these anyway.
I will let everyone know the outcome. Thanks to you guys too.
Rudedog, et al,
Is this thread dead? It began with such promise. I thought we had a chance to learn something really useful about the CW-80. What happened?
Were you able to get in touch with Lionel? Any joy?
Well, I dont think Im overloading the CW80. It won't cycle when just 1 wheat bulb and a Docksider are present. And of course if you pull the plug or wire, the e unit cycles fine. What makes me unhappy is that we have more than one of these old production transformers. Each of them reacts the same.
Yes, we tested them when we got the sets. And I thought that it was a good idea to get another set just cause the transformer seemed so nice. But using the transformer as it was intended, with accessories (ie. a lamp post) it does not work properly. Im sure Lionel expected us to buy some accessories to add, otherwise why bother having the accessory side.
In this case you got a 10 year old trying to build a semi permanent first layout and its just not working for us. Tried many engines. Really serves us no better than an MPC era blue, red or black 2 post transformer.
The bottom line is I will try to work with it and see if I can tune it by adding just the right amount of bulbs to the track. Maybe it will work. Otherwise, I will buy him a rejuvenated 1033 transformer. Why would you want to stop and keep going forward anyway, wouldnt it be easier to turn off the reverse unit and accomplish the same thing.
bfskinner wrote:Assuming that each lamp draws 0.25 amps, my 8 bulbs would have drawn exactly 2 amps. HooperSJ's first three accessories should have drawn only 3/4 amp. Adding the two-bulb "cathedral" would have brought the load on the U and B posts to only 1 1/4 amps. What is available to the accessory side depends on what was being driven by the throttle posts. Not having any amperage charts, I don't know how much that was. And if the transformer was truly overloaded, why did the green lamp not blink its cheerful warning? Or did I just miss it on a well-lighted workbench with a whole lot of excitements going on? I can make mine blink and "fold-back" power anytime I want by simply adding enough illuminated passenger cars to a consist. Why did my CW go into "hiccup mode" and why did it reboot itself after being unplugged? Could it be that hiccup mode and extreme fold-back were one and the same thing?
Assuming that each lamp draws 0.25 amps, my 8 bulbs would have drawn exactly 2 amps. HooperSJ's first three accessories should have drawn only 3/4 amp. Adding the two-bulb "cathedral" would have brought the load on the U and B posts to only 1 1/4 amps. What is available to the accessory side depends on what was being driven by the throttle posts. Not having any amperage charts, I don't know how much that was. And if the transformer was truly overloaded, why did the green lamp not blink its cheerful warning? Or did I just miss it on a well-lighted workbench with a whole lot of excitements going on? I can make mine blink and "fold-back" power anytime I want by simply adding enough illuminated passenger cars to a consist. Why did my CW go into "hiccup mode" and why did it reboot itself after being unplugged? Could it be that hiccup mode and extreme fold-back were one and the same thing?
Well my accessories had more lamps than you mentioned. Here they are:
Irene's diner - 3 bulbs (.25 * 3 = .75)
speeder shed - 1 bulb (.25)
log cabin - 1 bulb (.25)
illuminated station platform - 2 bulbs (.25 * 2 = .50)
Therefore the first four accessories had .75 + .25 + .25 + .50 = 1.75 amps
Then I added the cathedral - 2 bulbs (2 * .25 = .50) making the total amp draw 2.25 amps.
That may confirm your theory bfskinner. Although, like you, I wonder why I didn't get any blinking of my light. I just assumed Percy was having problems until I did further investigation and discovered it was isolated to him (and Thomas). My other engines are all small. I wonder what would have happened if I had a big diesel or larger steamer. Maybe it would act irradically like your's did on your bench....
[This post crossed with Lionelsoni's latest.]
HopperSJ, rudedog, lionroar88, and others,
The Owners Manual for the older model CW-80 says the following: "Your CW-80 Transformer provides a total output of five amps. The track outputs will deliver all of this power to the track when no accessories are connected to the transformer." [Emphasis mine.] "Keep in mind that connected accessories borrow some of this power. For example, if the accessories require two amps of the five-amp capacity of the transformer, you have three amps available for track power." --Lionel CW-80 Transformer Owner's Manual, part number 71-4198-250, 11/05, p.10.
From this I infer that the accessory outputs can deliver at least 2 amps, but it is not clear that they they can deliver more than that. Page 11 goes on to say "Accessory operation is intermittent or absent [.] Check for loose, shorted, or improper connections. The accessory output voltage may have been set too low for the accessory."
My "library" does not contain any more information than that.
Still, lionroar88 may have hit it. It would be useful to know, with no train or other load connected to the throttle posts, how much of its rated 5 amps can the CW-80 deliver to the accessory posts? And what effect would running a modest-sized loco on the throttle have on the accessory output? Anyone want to call and find out? I would, but I'm tired of getting hung-up on. Lionel Tech Service should be open tomorrow, Wednesday, for those who dare.
You might want to post this problem on the OGR forum. They have several authorities on the CW-80, including Dale Manquen who posts under his real name, as does Chuck Sartor of Mizell Trains, and of course there is OGR executive and train-repair guru Dave Barrett, who responds to questions now and again. I am not a member of that forum, but I do read it occasionally.
Bob Nelson
bfskinner,
That's awesome that you were able to recreate what I am experiencing. Again, no answers, but it suggests there is a connection with significant load on the accessory output and the track output. As I said before, for me the answer will lie in running my lights off an separate aux transformer and just running someting that needs a unique voltage setting off the CW-80. My sawmill loves running off my other CW-80.
Interesting morning. Just to add to the data-base, I decided to try to get my older model CW-80 (0603) to misbehave and succeeded this time. Put a Williams CSX diesel cab number 7848 on the bench track and began adding lamps in parallel to the accessory terminals. With two 14 volt lamps all was well. With 4, however, the e-unit began cycling erratically, and with 8 it wouldn't cycle at all.
Disconnected the lamps and substituted a postwar-vintage motorized accessory (397 coal loader.) No problem. Re-connected a couple of lamps in parallel with the 397. Big problem: the e-unit wouldn't cycle, the loco wouldn't run, the coal loader wouldn't run. Nothing would run, on either the throttle side or the accessory side. The green light (overload indicator) stayed on and never even blinked. During all this excitement the horn sounded spontaneously a couple of times.
Thought I had "blown" the loco, the transfomer or both. Put loco on layout, powered by postwar ZW, and it worked perfectly. Back to the workbench. Tried several loads individually on the CW. No throttle response, no useful accessory output. The lamps (2) just blinked about once per second, whether connected to the throttle posts or the accessory posts. Unplugged the CW from house current, let it stand for a few seconds, plugged it back in and all was well once again -- as if it had been "re-booted."
This is the first time in over three years of trying that I have been able to re-create one of the CW-80 mis-behaviors that I have read so much about. Don't have a clue as to what caused it or why it cleared up. Advice for rudedog and HooperSJ: Call Lionel Tech Service. Speak to a male. If a woman answers, hang up. Not politically correct, of course, but possibly the best advice based on my experiences with that bunch.
rudedog, HopperSJ,
Has any progress been made, or has everyone given up? I have tried to do a field-experiment with what I have on hand but cannot re-create the problem.
Specifically, I hooked up an early model CW-80 (date: 0603 or June 2003) to a short length of ordinary Lionel O gauge tubular track, using posts A and B as "common." I hooked up 8 lamps on the accessory side at a nominal 12 volts, and tried a modified Lionel 2338 Milwaukee Geep with a QSI ACRU electronic e-unit, and a then a Lionel 4410 SP "Daylight" steam loco and tender, similarly modified. Everything worked perfectly.
Unfortunately, I don't have any loco's with "troublesome" e-units; that is, I have never had to add an incandescent bulb to get any of my locos to cycle their e-units reliably, whether electronic or the old electro-mechanical type. However, I am aware that some Lionel locos, particularly the starter-set types such as "Thomas" and others, sometimes need an added lamp to allow their e-unit to cycle properly with the older CW-80's.
As far as rudedog's problem goes, I remain completely stumped. For HooperSJ, I wonder if with his "bus" wiring setup, the additional lights that he has been adding could have actually reduced the load resistance on the CW-80 to a level where the "added load" was no longer sufficient to cause the e-unit to cycle. Forgive me if I am completely wrong on this -- its been a long time since school -- but when you wire additional loads in parallel, don't you actually reduce the total resistance in the circuit? If Hooper's e-unit requires the now-familiar added lamp in order for the e-unit to cycle, he should get good results with one or two lamps, which he does. But if he is connecting these additional lamps in parallel, could this not eventually reach the point where the load resistance drops below the minimum level required for the e-unit to cycle?
That seems to be what he is seeing when he adds the "fourth accessory;" i.e., the cathedral with its lamps. In a phrase, there seems to be little reason to believe that the CW is "overloaded" because we have had no report of the green light blinking, so is it possible he has defeated the add-a-lamp workaround by adding that fourth load in parallel with the others? If this isn't a totally wiggy idea, it should be easy to test. Anybody?
HopperSJ,
Thanks for the prompt and complete update on your hookup. One thing is clear from the dates of manufacture and your observation that the A and B posts are common: you definitely have two of the older, non-revised CW's. Normally these work best when wired "backwards" with the A and B posts as common, whether by bus or point-to-point wiring. U-under-A should power the center rail; U-under-B should power the "hot" side of any accessories, and A or B, it doesn't matter which, should go to the outside rail and any common ground. If this convention is adhered to throughout the layout, it should work except that the whistle and bell buttons will be reversed.
Sometimes folks underestimate the total load that their layout puts on their transformer. The CW-80 has two sets of outputs, but only one wattage rating. The amount of output used by the accessories must be subtracted from the total available, leaving that much less for the track. In your case, it sounds like there should be enough power for everything; but.... I understand that it is difficult to break the layout down, but I don't know how to proceed unless we can isolate some components and then reassemble them, testing at each step.
In my own case, I keep a couple of transformers on my bench, a 1033 and a CW-80, along with a piece or two of 40 inch tubular track (free of shorts) and some color-coded wires with alligator clips. Then I start "from scratch" and add one element at a time until I recreate the problem that occurred on the layout. For example, I first make sure the green light and fan work. Then I hook the outputs to the track: first the throttle posts, and then the accessory posts by themselves. Then I go back and hook up the throttle posts and put a loco on the track and cycle the e-unit a few times to make sure the loco moves freely and the e-unit cycles properly, taking care not to send the loco flying off the bench. If the e-unit fails to cycle I add a load, such as an illuminated caboose, and try again. Then I unhook the throttle from the track and hook it to an accessory. If that works, I disconnect everything from the throttle posts and essentially try the same tests using the accessory posts. If everything works to this point, I connect the throttle posts to the track and the accessory posts to the accessory, making certain that thers is no cross connection between any metal part of the accessory and the track. Of course, all of this has to be down at relatively low power settings on both the throttle and the accessory posts lest things start flying around. If everything still works, fine. If not, I check to see whether the green light on the CW-80 is telling me something, either by being off altogether, or blinking, which is indicative of an overload. If all is well, I start putting things back on the layout, one at a time, and observe the ensuing behavior step by step.
In most cases, if I don't get impatient and skip steps, I can isolate the problem. Sometimes I can even fix it. Since I can't follow this diagnostic procedure with your set, I can't do much more here; but I am impressed (read, vexed) by your statement that everything works but the e-units on your Thomas and Percy locomotives, and even they work in the absence of the illuminated cathedral. Very puzzling.
Maybe another member can spot what's going on here. I would very much like to learn the solution.
Here is the CW-80 info I reported on the "CW-80 cate code poll" thread a month back:
HopperSJ wrote:Here are my two CW-80's. I have not had any problems with either of them.Thomas Set bought 11/05 1) 0205 2) P/N: 6-141983) Posts A and B are common.4) no problems Cascade Range bought 04/061) 1205 2) P/N: 6-141983) Posts A and B are common.4) no problems
Here are my two CW-80's. I have not had any problems with either of them.
Thomas Set bought 11/05
1) 0205
2) P/N: 6-14198
3) Posts A and B are common.
4) no problems
Cascade Range bought 04/06
1) 1205
My first one is the one currently hooked up to the four accessories, they are all lighted buildings (actually it is 5, the fifth one tripped it up). The accessories that were working are Irene's Diner, a speeder shed, an illuminated station platform and a plasticville log cabin that I added a 12 volt incandecent lamp to. These are all hooked up using bus wiring (accept the station platform). When I added a plasticville cathedral (w/ 2 12 volt lamps I put in) to the bus the CW-80 stopped flipping the e-unit ONLY on Thomas and Percy. Again, my other engines reverse just fine. Because the wiring is in bus, it would be hard to remove one item at a time, except the station platform. When I remove the lighted accessories altogether (or flip my switch for lighting), everything returns to normal opperation.
I can go try and switch my transformers around, but the problem with that is I have set the accessory output to unique levels on both CW-80's. The second one is set pretty low to keep my sawmill from zipping the logs right through (and shaking my house apart!!) and the first one, with the lighted accessories is set higher to keep those lights bright! (it is not nearly maxed out, though!)
DMUinCT,
According to the Owner's Manual, the CW-80 was designed so that one can slow a train to a standstill without tripping the e-unit, such as at a station, and then proceed in the same direction. Sometimes this works a bit too well, and the e-unit continues to receive sufficient power when the direction button is pushed or the throttle pulled all the way back such that the e-unit will not cycle reliably. This is normally worked-around by adding a lamp or two to provide small constant loads on the CW's outputs.
I agree that the likely cause of the failure of the e-units to cycle reliablly is the presence of a little current from somewhere. You referred to this as back-feeding; earlier I used the term "sneak path" more as a metaphor than as a technical term. The question remains: how does hooking up certain accessories cause this to happen?
tex702
Maybe Lionel or one of their authorized dealers will replace the CW-80 and maybe they won't. Please read the specific conditions of the warranty as located in the Owner's Manual which can be found at the Lionel website. Rudedog's CW-80 is technically well out of warranty. If all anyone had to do was to call and get a free replacement, there would be no need for the hundreds of pages of text devoted to the subject. Sometimes, in out-of-warranty situations, it depends on who you get to talk to. I know from multiple personal experiences. By the way, if Lionel should agree to replace the transformer, it would be wise to ask for one of the new versions, which eliminate the need for hook-up "workarounds" and run very well indeed.
Hey rudedog,
I didnt have the same problem as you did but nonetheless I had a problem with that darn CW-80. I ended up calling Lionel and having them replace it and that is what they did. The problem is solved. Just call Lionel and tell them the thing just quit working. They will replace it.
Lets see what the locomotive is seeing. When you press the Direction Button, track voltage goes to "0' . The PC board or "E Unit" in the engine is turned off. when power is reapplied it advances to the next mode (Forward, Neutral, reverse, etc).
If you have a meter, is the Track Voltage going to "0"? If not, you have a backfeed somewhere. Maybe a LED used for lighting backfeeding on the CW80?
Don U. TCA 73-5735
Rudedog, HopperSJ,
What is striking about this thread is the similarity of your problems although there are significant differences.
Presumably due to it's unfortunate reputation, many people simply assume the CW-80 must be the cause -- and sometimes it is. But I am struck by the fact that HopperSJ's transformer worked until he hooked up the "fourth" accessory. I would suggest going back to just the first accessory and seeing whether it can still be hooked up by itself and have the CW operate correctly. If so, remove it, and then hook up only the fourth accessory. If that recreates the problem, it would seem that the problem is with the accessory and/or how it's hooked up.
It is difficult to explain, but the fact is that with the older CW's, even when wired up according to the "official" instructions, some perfectly-functioning accessories will work while others will not. The problem is not with the accessory per se, but with the hookup instructions, and a simple workaround is available. (See especially paragraphs two and three of rwmcclellan's detailed post of Feb 17, 4:12 PM.)
HopperSJ: because it is ultra-important with every question about the CW-80, please post the manufacturer's date from the bottom of the case for each of your transformers. (Either a four-character number or a five-character with an alpha prefix.) I'd also like to know what these accessories are, what kind of track, etc.
The early CW's were known to do unexpected things, but they did not do "mystical" things. Their behavior always has a rational cause, although sometimes the cause is internal to the transformer and one generally can't get to it. So, in my opinion, the sensible approach is the one that the behavioral psychologist B.F. Skinner would have taken: focus on its observable behavior (what it does and will do) and and keep adding and manipulating external variables one at a time until the problem arises again and it becomes clear what is going on.
This generally means removing the CW from the layout, disconnecting all wires, and plugging it in to see whether the green light and the fan come on. If they do, one can then begin systematically to add components, one at a time, to discover exactly when problems arise. In this process, remember that all you need are the components themselves and a certain amount of patience. An ohm-meter can be useful, but a voltmeter will generally just confuse things because it won't read correctly (see earlier posts by Lionelsoni and others) although it will give "sensible" readings (that is, readings other than zero or 19 volts) with a load on the transformer outputs.
A Day Without Trains is a Day Wasted
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