Thought it was my wiring...
Why is it that when you have a light hooked up to the accessory side of the transformer that I lose my forward-neutral-reverse capability? Only goes forward.
Then if I undo the wire from the accessory side I get my forward-neutral-reverse back to the engine.
Am I only supposed to use intermitent buttons on that side? I already wired everything up for an under the bed layout. For some reason I expected the lights to stay on and the engine to work as intended.
What should I do? I didnt intend to use 2 transformers.
What transformer terminals are connected to what rails of the track; and what two points on the track or the transformer is the light connected to? In your reply, be sure to distinguish between the U terminal under the A terminal and the U terminal under the B terminal, as they are probably not connected together inside the transformer.
The CW80 has some "unusual" internal wiring, which may figure into your problem.
Bob Nelson
rudedog, I had this same thing happen a few weeks ago. Here is my scenario:
(I am at work so I can't double check my U post, but I believe the black nobby is the U)
I have the center rail hooked up to the Red A post
I have the outer rail hooked up to the black (U) post under A
I have the two lighting hooked wires hooked up to red B and black (U) under B
My forward neutral and reverse worked fine until two weeks ago. On that day I hooked up one more accessory with lighting. Before it was three lighted buildings. When I hooked the forth building into the lighting scheme I lost the trigger for my e-unit. FOR ME THIS ONLY HAPPENED WITH PERCY AND THOMAS!!!! My pensy and docksider work just fine. Only e-units Thomas and Percy stopped working. When I disconnected the lights from aux power (B) thomas and percy returned to normal.
So for me, it not only had to do with the CW-80 but also Thomas and Percy. We know that Thomas and Percy had a unique relationship with the CW-80 because of the need of a draw (a light or something) on the track in order for their e-units to work.
This was a very interesting experience for me.
rudedog, did this happen with a Thomas train, or another train. What train does it happen with?
It happens with K-Line, Williams and Lionel engines.
There is only one pair of wires connected to the track for power and NO other wires connected to the track for anything else.
The track is SuperSnap by K-Line and the rail power is connected through one of their track sections which has a small green light where the wires connect. You have to take apart the underside of the (wire terminal housing) on that piece of track to be able to see where each of the wires connect to the rails.
Did that. Found a small capacitor bridging the two wire terminals. Maybe for the little green light? I dont know.
Transformer to track:
(A) terminal, red to the inside rail. (U) terminal under the (A) teminal is on the outside rail.
I have switched those rail wires back and forth with no difference.
Transformer to accessory:
(B) terminal, red to accessory. (U) terminal under the (B) terminal to accessory.
rudedog,
Specifically what accessory and is the accessory in any way attached to the track?
Regards, Roy
Only the two wires from the track side of the transformer are attached to the track.
Doesnt matter what accessory it is. It behaves in this manner with just one light attached to the accessory side of the transformer. Take off the light and I have the fwd-neutral-reverse back again.
Attach the light again, forward only.
It seems like Rudedog and HopperSJ have the very same symptoms. I'm baffled. What I know about the CW80 doesn't explain this interesting new "feature". However, I suspect that this strange behavior would not affect its performance underwater at the end of an anchor chain.
The interesting thing in my situation is that I CAN use the accessory posts to run some accessories. I have two CW-80's set up exactly as I described above except that one runs lights and the other runs my lionel sawmill. The one connected to the sawmill runs without a hitch. So did the other one with only three lighted accessories on it, but the forth lighted accessory triggered it. It seemed like it needed a certain amount of amperage(?) draw before it triggered the symptoms.
I found it facinating. How bizarre! I was about to post this very topic theother da, but got too busy. Don't have an answer, but I plan on running my lights off a separate AUX transformer and will run something else off the CW-80. (assuming it works for that!)
(I just liked this smiley so I included it!)
Thought for sure removing that section of track would do it.
But its still the same.
Because there are now two totally different versions of the CW-80, in order to try to answer questions it is imperative to know which version you have. Please look on the bottom of your CW and post the date of manufacture which should appear either as a four digit number, such as 1104; or a four digit number with an alpha prefix, such as G0906.
bf
The version he has will not make a difference. The only difference between the two versions is which set of posts are tied together inside the transformer. Older ones have the A-B posts tied together internally (what I would call common) and newer ones (starting apparently in late 2006) have the two U posts tied together internally (again what I call common).
One only encounters a problem with a functioning CW-80 if they attempt to treat the two black U posts as a common for track AND accessories on the older units. This is loosely (very loosely) equivalent to tying the A-B-C-D posts on PW ZW together to use them as a common when a common already exists on the U posts.
The CW-80 should be able to power accessories such as rudedog's light bulb and still run the trains normally. I have used dozens of these transformers with no problems, but I am very careful to check which terminals are common by ohming between the A-B or U-U posts to determine which ones are common (indicated by a short circuit) and then I wire the layout appropriately
At this point I cannot think of a single reasonable explanation for what rudedog is experiencing.
Rudedog, call Lionel customer service and tell them that it is not working right. Lionel has shown they are more than willing to take care of CW-80 problems - typically by replacing it.
Rudedog,
Which version do you have?
Roy,
With all respect, I think you and the rest are missing something here, perhaps a "sneak path," perhaps having to do with that capacitor that you were concerned about earlier.
The hook up track with the capacitor in it was removed and replaced with regular track. Its still the same.
Numbers are:
6-14198 Made in China 0304
bf - you must have missed my earlier post and suggestion to remove the track with the capacitor which rudedog did (prior to your post) and he reported it had no effect.
OK. At the very least we have established that you have one of the older CW-80's. For simplicity, it should be hooked up with the A and B posts as "common," that is connected to an outside rail AND to the common post of any accessory that has any chance of making electrical contact with the outside rail or similar "common" conductor. This includes any accessory with a metal frame that might contact the outside rail, or anything connected to the outside rail.
The U-under-A post should go to the center rail; the U-under-B post should provide power the insulated side of the accessory. This will result in the horn and whistle buttons being reversed, but that's the price you pay with an old CW-80; even one that is otherwise working perfectly.
As Roy has clearly stated above, on an older version of the CW you then need to make absolutely certain that there is no cross-connection whatsoever between the two U posts -- not even a single strand of wire or a "conductive contaminent" such as a screw or staple or the like. Some accessories are essentially all plastic and probably could not cause your problem; but others have a metal base that is used as common or ground, and they could.
In order for the old CW-80's to cause an e-unit to cycle properly, the voltage must drop to zero, which does not always happen when the throttle is set to zero or the direction button is pushed. It sounds as if the e-unit is getting just enough voltage (from somewhere) to keep it from cycling. If push comes to shove, try to cycle the e-unit by pulling the plug out of the wall, and let us know whether anything will cycle the e-unit with the accessory connected. The old CW's generally cycle e-units better with a constant load, such as an illuminated caboose or passenger car on the track.
If you want to try to diagnose and resolve your problem you will need to reduce the number of components to bare minimums: the transformer, a short section of track, a loco with e-unit and lighted car, and an accessory. If you don't want to try to work through this, then go the Lionel Service route. Maybe they will replace a nearly three year old CW, maybe not. They don't repair them, as we all know.
As long as people have ideas I will continue to try. But I dont think its ever going to work.
Hooked it up per the instructions of bfskinner but its still the same. Tried it with one passenger car and its still the same. Then I tried 2 passenger cars and it did cycle the e unit but with mixed results. It would go into neutral maybe 3 or 4 times then reverse. Or it would go from forward right to reverse then 5 neutrals. No rhyme or reason.
Im using a K MP15 now but will try a LIONEL Docksider then will try with 027 LIONEL track to see if that will work.
Taking suggestions for a transformer that will work. Did I mention that Im not so happy. Thanks to everyone trying to help. My 10 year old is pretty forgiving cause we been putting off this troubleshooting for 6 months now.
I remember when I was 10. I got a Lionel General set. Great set but engine doesnt run anymore despite still being in great physical condition. I also wanted the Blue Comet set on the opposite page of the catalog. Never got that one though.
A Day Without Trains is a Day Wasted
Rudedog, HopperSJ,
What is striking about this thread is the similarity of your problems although there are significant differences.
Presumably due to it's unfortunate reputation, many people simply assume the CW-80 must be the cause -- and sometimes it is. But I am struck by the fact that HopperSJ's transformer worked until he hooked up the "fourth" accessory. I would suggest going back to just the first accessory and seeing whether it can still be hooked up by itself and have the CW operate correctly. If so, remove it, and then hook up only the fourth accessory. If that recreates the problem, it would seem that the problem is with the accessory and/or how it's hooked up.
It is difficult to explain, but the fact is that with the older CW's, even when wired up according to the "official" instructions, some perfectly-functioning accessories will work while others will not. The problem is not with the accessory per se, but with the hookup instructions, and a simple workaround is available. (See especially paragraphs two and three of rwmcclellan's detailed post of Feb 17, 4:12 PM.)
HopperSJ: because it is ultra-important with every question about the CW-80, please post the manufacturer's date from the bottom of the case for each of your transformers. (Either a four-character number or a five-character with an alpha prefix.) I'd also like to know what these accessories are, what kind of track, etc.
The early CW's were known to do unexpected things, but they did not do "mystical" things. Their behavior always has a rational cause, although sometimes the cause is internal to the transformer and one generally can't get to it. So, in my opinion, the sensible approach is the one that the behavioral psychologist B.F. Skinner would have taken: focus on its observable behavior (what it does and will do) and and keep adding and manipulating external variables one at a time until the problem arises again and it becomes clear what is going on.
This generally means removing the CW from the layout, disconnecting all wires, and plugging it in to see whether the green light and the fan come on. If they do, one can then begin systematically to add components, one at a time, to discover exactly when problems arise. In this process, remember that all you need are the components themselves and a certain amount of patience. An ohm-meter can be useful, but a voltmeter will generally just confuse things because it won't read correctly (see earlier posts by Lionelsoni and others) although it will give "sensible" readings (that is, readings other than zero or 19 volts) with a load on the transformer outputs.
Lets see what the locomotive is seeing. When you press the Direction Button, track voltage goes to "0' . The PC board or "E Unit" in the engine is turned off. when power is reapplied it advances to the next mode (Forward, Neutral, reverse, etc).
If you have a meter, is the Track Voltage going to "0"? If not, you have a backfeed somewhere. Maybe a LED used for lighting backfeeding on the CW80?
Don U. TCA 73-5735
Hey rudedog,
I didnt have the same problem as you did but nonetheless I had a problem with that darn CW-80. I ended up calling Lionel and having them replace it and that is what they did. The problem is solved. Just call Lionel and tell them the thing just quit working. They will replace it.
DMUinCT,
According to the Owner's Manual, the CW-80 was designed so that one can slow a train to a standstill without tripping the e-unit, such as at a station, and then proceed in the same direction. Sometimes this works a bit too well, and the e-unit continues to receive sufficient power when the direction button is pushed or the throttle pulled all the way back such that the e-unit will not cycle reliably. This is normally worked-around by adding a lamp or two to provide small constant loads on the CW's outputs.
I agree that the likely cause of the failure of the e-units to cycle reliablly is the presence of a little current from somewhere. You referred to this as back-feeding; earlier I used the term "sneak path" more as a metaphor than as a technical term. The question remains: how does hooking up certain accessories cause this to happen?
tex702
Maybe Lionel or one of their authorized dealers will replace the CW-80 and maybe they won't. Please read the specific conditions of the warranty as located in the Owner's Manual which can be found at the Lionel website. Rudedog's CW-80 is technically well out of warranty. If all anyone had to do was to call and get a free replacement, there would be no need for the hundreds of pages of text devoted to the subject. Sometimes, in out-of-warranty situations, it depends on who you get to talk to. I know from multiple personal experiences. By the way, if Lionel should agree to replace the transformer, it would be wise to ask for one of the new versions, which eliminate the need for hook-up "workarounds" and run very well indeed.
bfskinner,
Here is the CW-80 info I reported on the "CW-80 cate code poll" thread a month back:
HopperSJ wrote:Here are my two CW-80's. I have not had any problems with either of them.Thomas Set bought 11/05 1) 0205 2) P/N: 6-141983) Posts A and B are common.4) no problems Cascade Range bought 04/061) 1205 2) P/N: 6-141983) Posts A and B are common.4) no problems
Here are my two CW-80's. I have not had any problems with either of them.
Thomas Set bought 11/05
1) 0205
2) P/N: 6-14198
3) Posts A and B are common.
4) no problems
Cascade Range bought 04/06
1) 1205
My first one is the one currently hooked up to the four accessories, they are all lighted buildings (actually it is 5, the fifth one tripped it up). The accessories that were working are Irene's Diner, a speeder shed, an illuminated station platform and a plasticville log cabin that I added a 12 volt incandecent lamp to. These are all hooked up using bus wiring (accept the station platform). When I added a plasticville cathedral (w/ 2 12 volt lamps I put in) to the bus the CW-80 stopped flipping the e-unit ONLY on Thomas and Percy. Again, my other engines reverse just fine. Because the wiring is in bus, it would be hard to remove one item at a time, except the station platform. When I remove the lighted accessories altogether (or flip my switch for lighting), everything returns to normal opperation.
I can go try and switch my transformers around, but the problem with that is I have set the accessory output to unique levels on both CW-80's. The second one is set pretty low to keep my sawmill from zipping the logs right through (and shaking my house apart!!) and the first one, with the lighted accessories is set higher to keep those lights bright! (it is not nearly maxed out, though!)
HopperSJ,
Thanks for the prompt and complete update on your hookup. One thing is clear from the dates of manufacture and your observation that the A and B posts are common: you definitely have two of the older, non-revised CW's. Normally these work best when wired "backwards" with the A and B posts as common, whether by bus or point-to-point wiring. U-under-A should power the center rail; U-under-B should power the "hot" side of any accessories, and A or B, it doesn't matter which, should go to the outside rail and any common ground. If this convention is adhered to throughout the layout, it should work except that the whistle and bell buttons will be reversed.
Sometimes folks underestimate the total load that their layout puts on their transformer. The CW-80 has two sets of outputs, but only one wattage rating. The amount of output used by the accessories must be subtracted from the total available, leaving that much less for the track. In your case, it sounds like there should be enough power for everything; but.... I understand that it is difficult to break the layout down, but I don't know how to proceed unless we can isolate some components and then reassemble them, testing at each step.
In my own case, I keep a couple of transformers on my bench, a 1033 and a CW-80, along with a piece or two of 40 inch tubular track (free of shorts) and some color-coded wires with alligator clips. Then I start "from scratch" and add one element at a time until I recreate the problem that occurred on the layout. For example, I first make sure the green light and fan work. Then I hook the outputs to the track: first the throttle posts, and then the accessory posts by themselves. Then I go back and hook up the throttle posts and put a loco on the track and cycle the e-unit a few times to make sure the loco moves freely and the e-unit cycles properly, taking care not to send the loco flying off the bench. If the e-unit fails to cycle I add a load, such as an illuminated caboose, and try again. Then I unhook the throttle from the track and hook it to an accessory. If that works, I disconnect everything from the throttle posts and essentially try the same tests using the accessory posts. If everything works to this point, I connect the throttle posts to the track and the accessory posts to the accessory, making certain that thers is no cross connection between any metal part of the accessory and the track. Of course, all of this has to be down at relatively low power settings on both the throttle and the accessory posts lest things start flying around. If everything still works, fine. If not, I check to see whether the green light on the CW-80 is telling me something, either by being off altogether, or blinking, which is indicative of an overload. If all is well, I start putting things back on the layout, one at a time, and observe the ensuing behavior step by step.
In most cases, if I don't get impatient and skip steps, I can isolate the problem. Sometimes I can even fix it. Since I can't follow this diagnostic procedure with your set, I can't do much more here; but I am impressed (read, vexed) by your statement that everything works but the e-units on your Thomas and Percy locomotives, and even they work in the absence of the illuminated cathedral. Very puzzling.
Maybe another member can spot what's going on here. I would very much like to learn the solution.
rudedog, HopperSJ,
Has any progress been made, or has everyone given up? I have tried to do a field-experiment with what I have on hand but cannot re-create the problem.
Specifically, I hooked up an early model CW-80 (date: 0603 or June 2003) to a short length of ordinary Lionel O gauge tubular track, using posts A and B as "common." I hooked up 8 lamps on the accessory side at a nominal 12 volts, and tried a modified Lionel 2338 Milwaukee Geep with a QSI ACRU electronic e-unit, and a then a Lionel 4410 SP "Daylight" steam loco and tender, similarly modified. Everything worked perfectly.
Unfortunately, I don't have any loco's with "troublesome" e-units; that is, I have never had to add an incandescent bulb to get any of my locos to cycle their e-units reliably, whether electronic or the old electro-mechanical type. However, I am aware that some Lionel locos, particularly the starter-set types such as "Thomas" and others, sometimes need an added lamp to allow their e-unit to cycle properly with the older CW-80's.
As far as rudedog's problem goes, I remain completely stumped. For HooperSJ, I wonder if with his "bus" wiring setup, the additional lights that he has been adding could have actually reduced the load resistance on the CW-80 to a level where the "added load" was no longer sufficient to cause the e-unit to cycle. Forgive me if I am completely wrong on this -- its been a long time since school -- but when you wire additional loads in parallel, don't you actually reduce the total resistance in the circuit? If Hooper's e-unit requires the now-familiar added lamp in order for the e-unit to cycle, he should get good results with one or two lamps, which he does. But if he is connecting these additional lamps in parallel, could this not eventually reach the point where the load resistance drops below the minimum level required for the e-unit to cycle?
That seems to be what he is seeing when he adds the "fourth accessory;" i.e., the cathedral with its lamps. In a phrase, there seems to be little reason to believe that the CW is "overloaded" because we have had no report of the green light blinking, so is it possible he has defeated the add-a-lamp workaround by adding that fourth load in parallel with the others? If this isn't a totally wiggy idea, it should be easy to test. Anybody?
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