LIONEL OR MTH THE BETTER BANG FOR THE BUCK?

[Anonymous]

Reading the threads the simple answer is read CTT, over the years they have given how to articles on how to repair numerous Lionel engineering blunders.From re-shimming motors to reversing wiring on smoke units. I have Weaver, Williams, MTH, Lionel and Atlas and have sold off all of my modern Lionel with the exception of Daylight F3s and GS4. When you have to have as many "how to fix your new thousand plus dollar locomotive" as they do it should send up a red flag. Sometimes brand loyalty can be blinding. Today's Lionel is not the same company that it was in it's 1st 50 or 60 years of operation and unfortunately never will be. Consumer reports has sections for reliability ratings, this market will never be large enough to have that kind of tool so the next best thing is to research it yourself and don't be blinded by the color of the box. As Shakespeare said "What's in a name"

[3railguy]

I'm truly impressed as to how civil this thread has stayed. Let's keep it that way, shall we?

J White

If this statement is directed at me, I must say he asked for our opinions as to who makes the best trains. I gave him mine. I see nothing uncivil about it. 1948 to 1957 Lionel is my favorite. Beyond those years, things changed to my distaste and I don't care for the stuff.

[Deputy]

I'm truly impressed as to how civil this thread has stayed. Let's keep it that way, shall we?

J White

If this statement is directed at me, I must say he asked for our opinions as to who makes the best trains. I gave him mine. I see nothing uncivil about it. 1948 to 1957 Lionel is my favorite. Beyond those years, things changed to my distaste and I don't care for the stuff.

I doubt it was aimed at you, John. More likely at me

Dep

[chuck]

The Postwar stuff that everyone sings the praises to was the "good stuff".  Lionel and Flyer and others made "junk" back in those days as well.  It's just that stuff didn't survive and is now in land fills. 

Issues of reliabilty with the new stuff should be tempered with the way the trains are being sold (mostly mail order and often shipped by dubious means) and the people who buy them seem to have trouble finding/reading the instruction manuals.  These "toys" are way more complex and fragile than their 1950's counterparts.  If you buy a modern electronic wonder and treat it like a 50's Scout you have no one but yourself to blame for your problems.

The good stuff is still the good stuff whether it was made 50+ years ago in New Jersey/Connecticut or six months ago somewhere on the Pacific rim.  The junk is still junk.  Do your research and remember, caveat emptor.

[Frank53]

The Postwar stuff that everyone sings the praises to was the "good stuff".  Lionel and Flyer and others made "junk" back in those days as well.  It's just that stuff didn't survive and is now in land fills.

I've got to be the luckiest guy in the train history then. I must have 10 or 12 boxes of Lionel trains that had been sitting in my Dad's attic for almost 40 years. 100 plus degrees in teh summer to 5 or 10 below in teh winter and everywhere in between.

Six or seven engines, a load of freight cars, operating accessories, a couple of zw's etc etc, and everything worked perfectly.

What is the junk that in landfills?

[chuck]

Your dad probably had the "good stuff".  My uncle did to.  I didn't even know/see some of the lower end products till a few years ago.  "Winner" sets, exploding Scouts, sets where the scintered wheels are disintegrating.  Lionel and AF did make some fine products but there is no way that EVERYTHING they made from that time frame can or should be considered the last word in "quality".

[Anonymous]

Reading the threads the simple answer is read CTT, over the years they have given how to articles on how to repair numerous Lionel engineering blunders.From re-shimming motors to reversing wiring on smoke units. I have Weaver, Williams, MTH, Lionel and Atlas and have sold off all of my modern Lionel with the exception of Daylight F3s and GS4. When you have to have as many "how to fix your new thousand plus dollar locomotive" as they do it should send up a red flag. Sometimes brand loyalty can be blinding. Today's Lionel is not the same company that it was in it's 1st 50 or 60 years of operation and unfortunately never will be. Consumer reports has sections for reliability ratings, this market will never be large enough to have that kind of tool so the next best thing is to research it yourself and don't be blinded by the color of the box. As Shakespeare said "What's in a name"

This thread has remained very civil and then we have this... for a first post non-the-less.  It doesn't matter to me who the manufacturer is, my decisions so far have been that I am moving toward command control and bought TMCC, so I haven't purchased any MTH engines (although there are many that I like).  I'll also point out, since this was posted, that MTH had mega problems with PS1 locos as well.  NO matter what you manufacture you are bound to end up putting some below standard product on the market, it is a fact of life and manufacturing...

BTW - we are attempting to refrain from posting 'overtly negative generalistic' posts as this...

Beyond that to the forum.

[ChiefEagles]

Lion, I've got some of both [Lionel and MTH].  They all have their ups and downs.  TMCC is not easier to run from DCS remote.  I know.  I went that way first.  Then got CAB1.  No lashups with TMCC engines with DCS remote [unless you know how to cheat the system, I do].  You don't get all your TMCC features wtih DCS remote.  My problem with DCS remote is the delay.  One command has to clear before the other one can be put in.  So, I run both PS2 and TMCC engines and use both remotes [TMCC CAB1, DCS DCS remote].  Conventionals will run a lot better on a CAB1 with TPC than running them with DCS and its remote.  I know, like I said, I did the DCS route first.  Actually, I would not do without both systems.   

[Frank53]

Actually, I would not do without both systems.   

I'm doin' fine with neither . . .

[dbaker48]

Actually, I would not do without both systems.   

I'm doin' fine with neither . . .

 

DOUBLE THE PLEASURE, DOUBLE THE FUN  

And the THIRD one on order!!  I just love figuring out the new stuff and seeing the innovation. It makes me feel like ET,  DATA.....DATA.....DATA....   LOVE IT !!!! 

I run em all as many ways as I can... Conventional, TMCC, DCS, TMCCII    The expiramentation is exhilerating!!! 

[darianj]

i dont understand the MTH vs Lionel debate. They both make great products. Its kinda like the Ford vs Chevy thing. Just dont get the steadfast loyalty some people have with manufacturers.

Though I do have more MTH stuff, I have nothing against Lionel...It's just the way things seems to have worked out.

[CSXect]

Well I just could not resist to post my opinion and it is just that and not an attempt to start a war or P!$$ anyone off.

Before you decide on what O gauge train to go with I would checkout the S gauge trains by S-Helper and American Models these are realy great trains at a fair price.

Diehard S gauger with a serious O gauge habit 

 

[Anonymous]

My post wasn't directed at any one individual but more an editorial comment to help anyone that may be on the fence as to who may be the better manufacture. Seventy percent of consumers making a purchase in excess of five hundred dollars in the US perform some type of research on that given item including. I know this as I am a quality assurance consultant by trade. I can't say where the item would be purchased comes in to play as long as it is "Factory Sealed"  That being said my advise to anyone on the fence is to research, read and ask questions. Most companies that off shore track quality to provide feed back to the off shore manufactures and some have incentive programs to keep quality high. Products that are DOA (dead on arrival) or those that have engineering problems are tracked but the true measure is what is done with this information for the consumer. Case in point, some years ago K Line discovered an issue with it's Heavy Weight passenger car trucks, they sent out replacement parts to all buyers at no charge including postage. You would be amazed at how many companies still go above and beyond to satisfy consumers but at the same time many couldn't care less. I've done a lot of research on Flyer and Lionel pre 1960 from a business stand point the model they used in their service departments would make an investor cringe but it made for very loyal customers. The Facts are simply facts, being negative would I feel, be stating derogatory information without supporting data.      

[CSXect]

I have noticed    similar quality problems among all MFGs It is when you get more than just a few bad products in a row from the same company that you have to beware.

[Deputy]

My post wasn't directed at any one individual but more an editorial comment to help anyone that may be on the fence as to who may be the better manufacture. Seventy percent of consumers making a purchase in excess of five hundred dollars in the US perform some type of research on that given item including. I know this as I am a quality assurance consultant by trade. I can't say where the item would be purchased comes in to play as long as it is "Factory Sealed"  That being said my advise to anyone on the fence is to research, read and ask questions. Most companies that off shore track quality to provide feed back to the off shore manufactures and some have incentive programs to keep quality high. Products that are DOA (dead on arrival) or those that have engineering problems are tracked but the true measure is what is done with this information for the consumer. Case in point, some years ago K Line discovered an issue with it's Heavy Weight passenger car trucks, they sent out replacement parts to all buyers at no charge including postage. You would be amazed at how many companies still go above and beyond to satisfy consumers but at the same time many couldn't care less. I've done a lot of research on Flyer and Lionel pre 1960 from a business stand point the model they used in their service departments would make an investor cringe but it made for very loyal customers. The Facts are simply facts, being negative would I feel, be stating derogatory information without supporting data.      

No need to apologize. After a while on this forum you will discover that some folks can't take ANY kind of criticism of certain manufacturers, no matter if it is true and constructive or not. I found your post to be true and accurate.

Dep

 

[tschmidt]

Over time I have learned to appreciate what other manufacturers have made.  I have to say that for the longest time I would only buy my trains from one of these major manufacturers.  Then I found that K-line made a nice product and purchased some of their stuff.  I still have not bought anything from the other "big" manufacturer.  It's not because they make a bad product.  I have friends who run their trains all the time vand like them.  I just am comfortable with what I have.  I would imagine that one could argue the positives of every company.  Maybe some day I will make the leap and buy something by the other guy.  Right now I'm happy with what I have and how it works. 

TomS 

[nblum]

"My post wasn't directed at any one individual but more an editorial comment to help anyone that may be on the fence as to who may be the better manufacture."

 

My advice is to avoid paying much attention to any individual who bases their sweeping recommendation on bad experience with a handful of products of any company.  It's statistically absurd and usually represents understandable, but nonetheless largely meaningless sour grapes.  I've had literally hundreds of products from one manufacturer with less than a 1% problem rate out of the box.  That's statistically meaningful, but since I don't use these products constantly and heavily, I cannot comment on how robust they are in use.  If you read Consumer Reports they report failure rates even of excellent company's electromechanical products of at least 5-10% in use, which is no doubt no better or worse than most of our toys ;).  So when anyone tells you company X makes better products than company Y, in terms of quality, nod your head politely and head for the next conversation.  You're talking to someone with an axe to grind, and/or a personally unfortunate experience or two,  and/or who doesn't understand probability and quality assurance.

[underworld]

I didn't know they were exploding!!! For me it depends on the individual item.

 

underworld

[laz 57]

BOTH, I like em.

laz57

[Anonymous]

 I'll make my first post full of fire. Lionel!!! Bought only one piece of MTH; just to flip it. Bought a grn/grn #9 w/ proto sound for $275 NIB; basically "dealer cost", at the time. Figured I could get $350-400. Sold it a year later for $300. My point: People told me they could go to York and buy them from MTH for $225-250. Remember that "dealer cost" thing!!! MTH is cut and dry on their warranty to the day. Lionel leaves it up to the dealer in a lot of cases. At least veteran dealers. MTH has recently cut how much the dealers can make, to put more in their pockets; and cut their shipments to the US, to 4 times a year. They also don't produce all they say they'll produce in the catalogue. Lionel may be slow on some stuff, to get it out, but they do produce all of it plus uncatologued stuff. Currently have a TMCC PRR Mikado, uncatologed, just released. Bought it for $350. What a deal!!!

To finish, if it wasn't for Lionel, Mike would be a starving machinist like the rest, fighting for business, with the Chinese. Don't bite the hand that made you! Stop living off of other people's ideas, they didn't patent 50+ years ago. Check the references of your contractors. Don't trust the Chinese. Lionel isn't going anywhere: AS you file for bankruptcy, another bank offers you a $80million dollar loan. The first trial, Mike's lawyers went on commission. Don't think they'll do that again, for the appeal. It's Mike's pocket this time. Let's see how far this one goes. 

[Santa Fe Kent]

I think Santa Fe is best. And Chocolate Chip Cookies!

Shouldn't the question be between Lionel, MTH and Atlas?

I would think Atlas would beat them all....

[csxt30]

 I'll make my first post full of fire.  Let's see how far this one goes. 

Should go right out the door.

[Deputy]

Oh well...I knew it wouldn't last forever. SOMEONE had to make a post that would stir up poop.

Dep

 

[dbaker48]

I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS ARGUMENT AT ALL......

- AS SOON AS SOMEONE ELSE PAYS FOR MY TRAINS, THEN THEY CAN DECIDE WHICH ONES I GET !

- THIS WORLD WE LIVE IN IS FULL OF IMPERFECTIONS !  I CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING THAT WE AS MANKIND HAS PUT HERE THAT IS PERFECT WITHOUT FLAW.

-  THE "QUALITY" STATEMENTS THAT ARE BANTERED AROUND AS BEING SIFNIFICANT OR BY THOSE THAT HAVE THE QUALITY BACKGROUND, CERTAINLY LEAVE A LOT TO BE DESIRED.  WHEN DID CONSUMER AFFAIRS OR CONSUMERS REPORTS BECOME A QUALITY AUTHORITY???   I HAVE NEVER HEARD ANYONE ASK IF ANY OF THE COMPANIES HAVE A ISO 900x RATING, OR HAVE DONE ANYTHING WITH A 6 SIGMA QUALITY PROGRAM.  THOSE ARE THE VALID MEASURES !!!

- OH ONE LAST THOUGHT AREN'T THESE TOYS ?   AND ISN'T THIS A HOBBY? 

 

SUGGESTION:  MAYBE A GOVERNMENT AGENCY COULD BE SET UP LIKE THE FDA, THAT COULD PROVIDE US WITH AN INCREASED PERCEPTION OF QUALITY, AND ENHANCED PERCEPTION OF PRODUCTS BEING RELEASED.  (DOWNSIDE COST AND AVAILABILITY) 

 NOW LETS GO PLAY TRAINS, OR IF NECESSARY FIX THEM.

 

OH YEAH, CHECK OUT THE THREAD "MTH OR LIONEL", I PULLED IT FORWARD FROM PAGE 418 OF THIS FORUM LISTING 

[Frank53]

and folks ask me why I don't buy any of the new stuff.

I'm sticking with my post war Lionel's.

ps: Anybody got any they want to rid themsleves of?

[Anonymous]

 Well ... Williams has brass engines about or near the same price as Lionel . Lionel is tried and true for over 80 years . K-Line was the best price deal ... 99% Lionel at better prices . MTH had alot of problems and I'd only buy their newer engines ... as the proto 1 engines were extremely buggy and cost hundreds of dollars to rewire and get dependable . You only get the digital remote engines in Lionel and K-Line / tmcc ---- MTH has their version of digital which is not standard and may fall to the wayside like BETA VCR 's . Williams is like the older Lionel .... good quality --- but no advanced control systems at all . As far as the kit=brass engines they love to jump the track and derail . ------   

[Anonymous]

 I'll make my first post full of fire.  Let's see how far this one goes. 

Should go right out the door.

I'll sure go along with that "should go right out the door comment."  The original post by alandorv demonstrates a bias that would obviously color any subsequent posts from him relating to product comparisons, thereby making any of them suspect.  Probably not the best way to start out!  But, hey, everyone here is entitled to his own perspective and opinions! 

Every manufacturer I know of makes a lot of good products and a few losers.  Every manufacturer I know of has a lot of stuff that is fine right out of the box, along with a few that are problematic.

Every manufacturer making trains these days produces the bulk of items they catalog, and every manufacturer also cancels things that they discover may not sell (based on dealer orders).

Every manufacturer I know of has slippage in their delivery schedules--some slight slippage and some long-term slippage.

The bottom line is:  There isn't much difference between any of these firms.  Buy what you like, and what fits your interest in terms of era, roadname, or whatever, and take the comments of others with a LARGE grain of salt.  After all, they aren't building your railroad, and they aren't providing any financial assistance for YOUR purchases.  It's YOU hobby--follow your own path despite what anyone else may say.  And definitely ignore comments that reflect a definite and consistent brand bias, one way or another. 

[Anonymous]

 I'll make my first post full of fire.  Let's see how far this one goes. 

Should go right out the door.

I'll sure go along with that "should go right out the door comment."  The original post by alandorv demonstrates a bias that would obviously color any subsequent posts from him relating to product comparisons, thereby making any of them suspect.  Probably not the best way to start out!  But, hey, everyone here is entitled to his own perspective and opinions! 

Every manufacturer I know of makes a lot of good products and a few losers.  Every manufacturer I know of has a lot of stuff that is fine right out of the box, along with a few that are problematic.

Every manufacturer making trains these days produces the bulk of items they catalog, and every manufacturer also cancels things that they discover may not sell (based on dealer orders).

Every manufacturer I know of has slippage in their delivery schedules--some slight slippage and some long-term slippage.

The bottom line is:  There isn't much difference between any of these firms.  Buy what you like, and what fits your interest in terms of era, roadname, or whatever, and take the comments of others with a LARGE grain of salt.  After all, they aren't building your railroad, and they aren't providing any financial assistance for YOUR purchases.  It's YOU hobby--follow your own path despite what anyone else may say.  And definitely ignore comments that reflect a definite and consistent brand bias, one way or another. 

I'm going to step out on the limb with csxt and Allan on this one!

If you look at the different engines today, there is very little to no difference between Williams, Atlas, MTH, and Lionel.  Well okay, Williams doesn't build or sell anything with command control, and Atlas only sells conventional and TMCC engines... but that is MTH's fault and no one else's.  Like I said before, if MTH hadn't locked down PS2 then Lionel wouldn't have locked down TMCCII and we would have ended up with engines that could run fully on either platform... now we are being FORCED to make a choice between the two companies (if you want modern command control), and this is what I don't like.  This hobby USED to be about buying and running trains.  Now it is about 'who do you like best', I'm sorry but I grew up a number of years ago and let the cliques of HS fall by the wayside 20+ years ago.  Mike Wolf has an axe to grind and he is going to grind it as long as he sees fit.  I have no problem with that, I know a number of people who can hold a grudge for a long, long time... I also know a lot of people who are like this and have lived very short lives because of the stress they put themselves under.  It is truly sad.

I'll step off my 'self-righteous' and let it end at that.  For once it would be nice if a thread like this didn't slip into a sandbox match between people who like to hide behind their internet monikers.

Monitors - I think it time for this thread to be locked as well.

[Anonymous]

 Well ... Williams has brass engines about or near the same price as Lionel . Lionel is tried and true for over 80 years . K-Line was the best price deal ... 99% Lionel at better prices . MTH had alot of problems and I'd only buy their newer engines ... as the proto 1 engines were extremely buggy and cost hundreds of dollars to rewire and get dependable . You only get the digital remote engines in Lionel and K-Line / tmcc ---- MTH has their version of digital which is not standard and may fall to the wayside like BETA VCR 's . Williams is like the older Lionel .... good quality --- but no advanced control systems at all . As far as the kit=brass engines they love to jump the track and derail . ------   

Hobo,
I think you mean Weaver, I don't think Williams has ever manufactured a Brass engine...

Brent

[Deputy]

Oh cripes. HERE WE GO AGAIN. Another bash X-company because my favorite is Y-company. C'mon guys...do we REALLY want to see this same ol' rehash of partisan train preferences????
The thread DOESN'T NEED TO BE LOCKED. People just need to get control of their emotional responses and STOP BASHING ANY COMPANY!!!!

Dep