Can't decide which to use MTH Z-4000 or the Lionel ZW?

[jimhaleyscomet]

One advantage the new ZW has over the Z-400 is in running conventional engines with the remote / cab1.  I already had DCS and TMCC command base, but that one advantage made the ZW worth the purchase for me.

 Jim H

[Deputy]

One advantage the new ZW has over the Z-400 is in running conventional engines with the remote / cab1.  I already had DCS, but that one advantage made the ZW worth the purchase for me.

 Jim H

Jim: You lost me there. Are you saying that CAB-1 will also run conventional locos? If so, I will have to give it a try. I have both CAB-1 and DCS running simultaneously. Don't see why a transformer should make any difference in running conventional locos. Isn't that more a function of the controllers?

Dep

[Anonymous]

 Jim ... you confused me there also . Are you trying to say the Z-4000 won't run conventional locos ? It is alot more diversified than the ZW !  You can even cable the lionel trainmaster to her ! And the most advanced digital remote controller .... plus any and all conventional engines .  DEP maybe you understand that statement but I'm still scratchin my head over that one .

[Deputy]

 Jim ... you confused me there also . Are you trying to say the Z-4000 won't run conventional locos ? It is alot more diversified than the ZW !  You can even cable the lionel trainmaster to her ! And the most advanced digital remote controller .... plus any and all conventional engines .  DEP maybe you understand that statement but I'm still scratchin my head over that one .

Just: My Z-4000 runs both my postwar 681 Lionel loco in conventional mode and my Proto 1 & 2 modern locos as well as TMCC locos with the use of their Command Base and CAB-1 and cable. The only problem is running both TMCC/Proto locos with conventional locos. You can do it, but your maximum speed will be limited to the maximum power you apply to the track for the conventional loco. No idea what Jim is talking about.

Dep

[jimhaleyscomet]

Think of the new ZW as a MTH DCS unit with handles.  When you add the cab 1/command base you can control the voltage exactly like you do with the DCS /Handheld.  The only two differences are the minimum starting voltage (ZW is close to zero, DCS is 5V),  and the number of voltage steps (DCS is .5V I think, ZW has 64 steps at full on handle(i think) but the the step voltage is reduced as the ZW handle is pulled back toward 0).  Therefore if you set the ZW handle at 5 Volts, each step is 5/64V or about .1V.  This gives VERY fine low speed control of conventional locomotives.  I am not sure about the exact number of steps the ZW has but the effect is a nearly infinate number of voltage steps for slow speed control.  As a result my conventional modern (Williams, Lionel) locomotives can crawl around the layout VERY slow.

 Jim H

[Deputy]

One advantage the new ZW has over the Z-400 is in running conventional engines with the remote / cab1.  I already had DCS, but that one advantage made the ZW worth the purchase for me.

 Jim H

Jim: What we are wondering about is the above statement..."running conventional engines with the remote / cab1". It seems to mean you can control conventional locos using CAB-1. Is that what you mean or are we reading it wrong?

Dep

[jimhaleyscomet]

You can use the TMCC CAB1/Command Base to run conventional locomotives when using the new ZW/Bricks as the "transformer".  Remember the new ZW black case is not really a transformer.  It is just a control unit (the transformer is in the bricks) similar to Mikes DCS track control unit (TCU).  The new ZW black case will recieve signals from the command base which recieves signals from the Cab 1. 

 The new ZW is the only control unit that will accept signals from the Cab1/command base to control voltage to the track and also has voltage handles.  

Another way to look at it....

Take Mike's DCS TCU.  Add Handles.  Remove the 5V minimum setting.  Then you are close to the equivalent of the New ZW / Command Base combination.

Sorry I am not better at describing this,  it took me quite a while to figure it out myself.  It was not until I went to my club and saw New ZW controllers with bricks, a command base, and remote running conventional locomtives VERY slow and fine on the "kids" table.  The club used the handles to set the maximum voltage low so kids would not derail and so the engines started slow.

Jim H 

[Anonymous]

The new ZW has 4 powermasters built in. One for each of the 4 outputs. So if you connect a Command base to it, you can now control the voltage output of each of those 4 handles remotely via. the CAB-1 with fantastic fine control of conventional locos. Naturally, this ZW - Command base tandem handles TMCC operations splendidly also. I think that it's a bit short sighted to proclaim that any specific solution, be it a transformer, control system, etc. as being the "the only way to go". It really depends on each operator's situation. I run conventional and TMCC only - no DCS. So for me, the best solution IS the new ZW as it has many built-in features that cater to the type of locos that I run. Mike view my layout at: http://home.comcast.net/~graz6/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

[jimhaleyscomet]

Here is yet another way to look at it.

When Lionel redid the ZW they moved the transformer out of the case to the bricks.  They left the handles (and manual voltage controller) inside the black ZW case.  Then they added TMCC circuitry to control the output voltage (Just like a TMCC engine controls voltage to its motors). 

When MTH designed the Z-4000 they left the transformer in the case and they kept manual voltage control (via handles) in the unit.  They added the cool meters and PS programing tools.  But they left the DCS voltage control circuitry in the DCS Track Control Unit (TCU).

 For conventional locomotives, a New TMCC ZW-Command Base-Remote operates like Mike's Z4000-DCS TCU-Remote.  The main difference is that the Mike's combination starts at minimum 5V.  The TMCC combination starts near 0V.  That can make a big difference in conventional voltage efficient can style motor locomotives.  

p.s.  I currently run my New ZW -Command Base- through my DCS unit fixed voltage channels.  I run both systems simultaneously along with conventional operation locomotives and they all play nice together.   As far as I can tell, the only disadvantage to having two (really three including conventional operation) control systems is the cost of investing in each control system.   

 Jim H

[Birds]

The manual for the ZW (p. 9, 10, and 11) explain what Jim is talking about, including the compressed steps.

The manuals for all the transformers (and various power control devices) can be downloaded from the company's websites.

Chris

[Deputy]

Since I have very few conventional locos, the Z-4000 is my preference. I like the volt-amp gauges too. Any conventional locos I have will be converted to Proto 2 and the ones like the postwar S2s won't see all that much runtime anyway. BTW....the ZW only comes with TWO powerhouse power supplies. You can buy two more for a total of 4 (for an extra $200).

Dep

[Deputy]

Something else that has cropped up on new ZWs...LOOSE HANDLES!! If you look in the February 2007 issue of CTT, you will see there is an article on page 66 concerning repairing loose throttles. More and more the Z-4000 seems like a "best buy".

Dep

 

[Anonymous]

Since I can control the output of the ZW handles via. the CAB-1 for both command and conventional locos, I never really have to touch the handles. Mike

[jimhaleyscomet]

Since I can control the output of the ZW handles via. the CAB-1 for both command and conventional locos, I never really have to touch the handles.
Mike

Ditto!  Aside from the fact that that only applies to early "new ZW's" and not current production.  My handles are still firm.

Jim H 

[Deputy]

Note that that same article also said "However, some issues still appeared" even after Lionel's fix. It's not 100% fixed in the new models either.  

Hmmmm...now I am wondering...if you are using TMCC/CAB-1 and you never touch the handles, is the ZW necessary at all?

Dep

[csxt30]

Since I have very few conventional locos, the Z-4000 is my preference. I like the volt-amp gauges too. Any conventional locos I have will be converted to Proto 2 and the ones like the postwar S2s won't see all that much runtime anyway. BTW....the ZW only comes with TWO powerhouse power supplies. You can buy two more for a total of 4 (for an extra $200).

Dep

2 powerhouses do not cost 200 dollars. Check CTT's advertizers.

[Anonymous]

Dep,
The ZW eliminates the need for 4 separate powermasters to be wired in with 4 stand-alone power bricks to give the full compliment of remote control of conventional locos as well as Command locos for my layout.
The handles are there is I ever feel so inclined to run in traditional style and frankly, the unit looks as cool as the postwar originals.
The separate power bricks aren't a big issue for me as my layout is permanent and the bricks reside under the layout. I'd like to keep components to a miniumum but the reality is that if you are tying your switches and accessories into your command system you are going to end up with a lot of wiring and components under the table no matter what. The scaleability of the new ZW is also nice if I ever need to add more power.
Lastly, since my layout is smaller, the ZW controller can sit on a small control stand and not visually overwhelm the layout like the Z4K might.
Mike

http://home.comcast.net/~graz6/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

[Deputy]

Since I have very few conventional locos, the Z-4000 is my preference. I like the volt-amp gauges too. Any conventional locos I have will be converted to Proto 2 and the ones like the postwar S2s won't see all that much runtime anyway. BTW....the ZW only comes with TWO powerhouse power supplies. You can buy two more for a total of 4 (for an extra $200).

Dep

2 powerhouses do not cost 200 dollars. Check CTT's advertizers.

I was quoting Lionel catalog prices. I know you can get them for less. But we need to have some kind of reference point/baseline for comparison or we will have a hundred posts saying "I can get it for $XXX at OOO".

Mike: Just too dang many components to buy for my liking. I'd rather just buy two Z-4000s than a bunch of bits and pieces. Like I said, my layout will be pretty much full DCS/TMCC. I don't see running more than 2 trains at any one time. Heck, it will only be a 8 foot by 16 foot layout.

Dep

 

 

 

[csxt30]

Since I have very few conventional locos, the Z-4000 is my preference. I like the volt-amp gauges too. Any conventional locos I have will be converted to Proto 2 and the ones like the postwar S2s won't see all that much runtime anyway. BTW....the ZW only comes with TWO powerhouse power supplies. You can buy two more for a total of 4 (for an extra $200).

Dep

2 powerhouses do not cost 200 dollars. Check CTT's advertizers.

I was quoting Lionel catalog prices. I know you can get them for less. But we need to have some kind of reference point/baseline for comparison or we will have a hundred posts saying "I can get it for $XXX at OOO".

Dep

I see, we don't want to be realistic in pricing. Let's overprice the stuff we don't like so others will agree more willingly. Not me.

[Deputy]

I see, we don't want to be realistic in pricing. Let's overprice the stuff we don't like so others will agree more willingly. Not me.

Noooo...but it makes it MUCH easier when we have ONE set of prices to work with. That being the manufacturer's catalog prices. I also say that the price of an MTH Z-4000 is $429.95 (the full catalog price). Obviously, I didn't pay that much. But I won't give an advantage to EITHER side in the price matter. If you don't like Lionel's catalog price, complain to Lionel. We have to have SOME kind of comparison point to measure things. Using discount prices we would be all over the spectrum with a zillion posts saying "I can get it for". That wouldn't give a fair comparison at all.

Dep

[nblum]

For many items Lionel discounts to dealers are 10% greater than MTHs so the street price of the ZW might well be discounted more from the MSRP than the Z4000.  Once again the only compelling reason for using the Z4000 is if you are using PS1/PS2 locos or like the built in meters and the only compelling reason for using the ZW is if you are are only operating conventional locos (other than PS2) or need the capability for 760 watts of power for your layout.

[Deputy]

Thanks Neil. That works for me

Dep

[Anonymous]

 Any way you look at it with shipping and/or taxes included 2 powermasters will run you about $200.00 !

[nblum]

"Any way you look at it with shipping and/or taxes included 2 powermasters will run you about $200.00 !"

 

I assume you mean the 180 watt Powerhouses?  The ZW has the equivalent of 4 Powermasters built into it, so there's no need for additional Powermasters.  If you add the two Powerhouses to a ZW the already comes with two, it will provide four discrete variable outputs for a total of 760 watts at about 50% higher cost than a Z4000 at 400 watts, so the cost per watt of available power is significantly less with the ZW in that configuration.  Just another thing to consider.

[csxt30]

Most commom term used for prices has been "STREET PRICES". 

Powermasters are now at $49.99 in in at leat one of CTT's advertisers. A long way from $200.00 even adding shipping.

Powerehouses are now at 71 dollars, & very recently were at 54 dollars each.

A TPC is still a better way to go, at $109.00 each. 

[Anonymous]

 DEP --- Just picked up my Z-4000 at the local shop and am like a new father --- LOL !  The owner had one setup and ran every possible function and hookup possible and cut the price considerably . Said he's been selling both Z-4000 and ZW with dual 180's and advised me ... even though I knew anyway by your advice .... to get the MTH .  Said it's the most reliable and best power supply out there . And like you heard the ZW's are still buggy and he had to send quite a few back even ones he did'nt sell . Told me he only needed to repair or send back 3 Z-4000's since they came out and 1 was because the guy dropped it and cracked the case and one other almost same deal .  Third was minor problem . Told me flat out he had both but was'nt stocking anymore ZW's . Had her hooked up with my lionel command system and worked great .... with or without MTH remote . Thank you for holding in there with your praise of them because you were right ! That digital readout does a whole lot more than just be a pretty set of lights ... diagnoses problems if you pay attention. Plus it did'nt cost $200.00 extra !  She'll run anything from 1942 - future because they're upgradable . You know what you're talking about .... don't be so easy letting others down your knowledge. Again thanks millions !

[csxt30]

Good for you HOBO !! I'll probably think about making that my next purchase to now after reading your thoughts & experience on this !! Yes & you're right about Dep's knowledge on here !!  You & him bring a wealth of knowledge & expereience to the forum !! What an asset to the forum to, I always say to myself !! I can't promote the other forums but they sure would like to have you guys over there too !! Let us know how that new transformer performs !!

Thanks, John  

[ChiefEagles]

Good for you HOBO !! I'll probably think about making that my next purchase to now after reading your thoughts & experience on this !! Yes & you're right about Dep's knowledge on here !!  You & him bring a wealth of knowledge & expereience to the forum !! What an asset to the forum to, I always say to myself !! I can't promote the other forums but they sure would like to have you guys over there too !! Let us know how that new transformer performs !!

Thanks, John  

John, you made me spit coffee all over the caboose with that one. 

[nblum]

"And like you heard the ZW's are still buggy and he had to send quite a few back even ones he did'nt sell . "

 

Well, this is the only dealer in the country I've heard of who considers the ZW buggy.  He's not related by birth or marriage to anyone in the industry, by any chance? ;)

[Anonymous]

 Hey I tell it like it is or was told by a man who sells and repairs them all . He said dollar for dollar the Z-4000 is way beyond a better system and quote " much more reliable and packed with many more advanced features " . He's 71 years old although you would'nt think it ... has been in train repair and selling retail for over 30 years and in the hobby since he was a child . I'd tend to believe him over others . He did'nt push either unit on me nor pressure me . There are 2 complete layouts setup in his store with both transformers/controllers linked to both remote systems . He left me run and try all the features and engines he had on them . He stocks about every engine made and rolling stock by about all manufacturers . It's an all train store ... not a remote control car or plane store sidelining trains . 4 or 5 customers at the least jumped in with us while we were running through the process giving advice and backing him up. Like he said -- " I have them both here but the facts speak for themself and this MTH is what I use at home and only them " . The large inventory of "G" scale engines amazed me . Are they HUGE ! It was like being in disneyworld only getting to run the show --- LOL  His place is alot more out of the way and was the first visit there for me but will never go to the other shops from now on . List price does'nt exist there and regular customers get even more discounts . Oh and   ChiefEagles I hope you have a z-4000 with those good breakers when you spit coffee all over your train and they kicked not frying anything ! --- HAHHAHAA  I never told anyone on here what to buy by brand but have reserched the devil out of and personally tried both and gave my conclusion . If the truth hurts ... sorry ... but if trying to help someone from dumping hundreds on less tecnologically advanced components angers some of you I can't help that . Like Dragnet said "ONLY THE FACTS MAAM " .  There's an old saying  "A FOOL AND HIS MONEY SOON PART " I don't do panic buying or on word of mouth only ... I research and try to the max from now on and wanted to give my leg work experiences on transformers to those who can't try them personally as I was able to . Buy which one you want ... I don't care I'm not promoting any brand . I'd never tell anyone what to spend their hard earned money on . So any of you can SPIT all over your trains or whatever like the fellow above did after reading another post here ----