My around-the-walls track is naked K-Line O27 36-inch straights supported by 2 1/2 x 9/16-inch corner braces every foot. The braces are screwed into the 1/5-inch plywood that covers the drywall. (I have many other tracks on the walls for storage.) The braces fit snugly between the curled-up edges of the ties and the rails. The track is fastened to the braces with machine screws and fender washers over the rail flanges. Small bits of cardboard insulate the center rail from the washers and braces.
This puts the track quite close to the wall. In the corners, I use spiral curves to ease the track away from the wall before turning more sharply. My corners are O72-O27-O72, on small plywood shelves. This takes up not much more room than a simple O27-O27 corner.
Here are some pictures that Dave Vergun took:
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/3/755674/ShowPost.aspx#755674
Bob Nelson
Wow, that's a lot of pictures. I assume that was yours with the white corners shelves? I only looked at page 1.
So it looks like it will work though. My MTH Buckeye steam 2-8-0 works great on the 027 corners. I can put 072s in there if I need too, but I would like to keep it close to the wall as possible. Most of my straights are 35" long straits, but I can't span more than a 9" section without sag on the mock-up.
Do you have any more pictures of the entire railway?
Thanks for the insight. At least I know it can be done.
Wes
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Wes,
For mine, much smaller then what you are proposing, I used the Baltic birch for the platform and made brackets from 1x3 and 1x2 birch. It would be very costly to do yours this way. How about installing a ledger board around the entire room, secured to wall studs, and mount your support brackets at whatever interval required.
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This a a way wild idea but how about just using 2x4 or 2x6 mounted to the wall for the straight runs. Perhaps even 1x6 would work. Predrill holes in the long dimension and mount it so the 3-3/4 (or 5-3/4) inch side is horizontal. Add small plywood platforms for the curves on top of 1x3s or 2x3s (or 1x6's).
The main idea is to use a continuous support. Then you will not need to bring it out or down as far and it should dissappear into the wall.
Jim H
Wes, the reason for using the O72s is to get the track actually closer to the wall. The curves in the corners are out a little farther, but the straight track can be much closer because of the O72. Even so, the farthest my curves get from the corner of the room is (diagonally to the farthest end of the ties) 11 inches.
I endorse Doug's advice about the ledger. That's what I have on the two walls where there is no plywood. It also bridges the gaps across the tops of three windows that are higher than the door. You said your track is 7'6 high. A standard door is 6'8. You might consider putting the track just above that.
I'm a little surprised that you decided to go with 9-inch support spacing. I tested with my heaviest locomotive (Rail King Big Boy), not that I intended to run it up there, and concluded that 12 inches was as close as I needed to go.
Jim, you're living in the past!...;-) Two-by-fours are now 1 1/2 x 3 1/2.
lionelsoni wrote: Wes, the reason for using the O72s is to get the track actually closer to the wall. The curves in the corners are out a little farther, but the straight track can be much closer because of the O72. Even so, the farthest my curves get from the corner of the room is (diagonally to the farthest end of the ties) 11 inches.I endorse Doug's advice about the ledger. That's what I have on the two walls where there is no plywood. It also bridges the gaps across the tops of three windows that are higher than the door. You said your track is 7'6 high. A standard door is 6'8. You might consider putting the track just above that.I'm a little surprised that you decided to go with 9-inch support spacing. I tested with my heaviest locomotive (Rail King Big Boy), not that I intended to run it up there, and concluded that 12 inches was as close as I needed to go.Jim, you're living in the past!...;-) Two-by-fours are now 1 1/2 x 3 1/2.
3/4 x 5 1/2 for the 1x6. In bigger sizes, it gets worse: A 2x8 is 1 1/2 x 7 1/4.
Now plywood is made 1/32-inch scant. What was 1/2 inch is now 15/32.
Decking lumber is often sold in 1.25-inch nominal thickness, which is actually 1-inch thick.
Wes, here's another way of looking at the spiral-curve idea: If easing into the curve by using O72-O27-O72 curves allows you to put the straight sections just 1 3/4 inches closer to the wall compared to O27-O27, the middle of the O72-O27-O72 spiral corner will be no farther from the wall than the O27-O27 circular corner would have been.
Thanks for all of the ideas guys! I just finally sat down and had a chance to read all of these posts. I guess I'll post what I did tonight and see if it changes any ideas. I thought about the crown molding, but I didn't want to find a way to build it out in the corner (since I can't bend it). I decided that I really wanted to see as much as the train as possible, and I think what I am doing will work out. The wife looked at it and said she thought it was going to look fine, which is ultimately the deciding factor,when you think about it.
As for why I was going to put it 9"? Well I could probably space it out to 12 if I used the 35" piece, but if I used the 9" pieces or corners, I would need to tack them down to something so they dont fall apart, or flex, so I decided to just put one at every splice.
Here are a few pictures to give you some ideas. I only got one mounted today, and the piece of track is just sitting up there. Visualize a mount at every "double" railroad tie. I think by looking under it, you can see how much better I can see under and around the train. Now if it holds up...
Thanks,Wes
Those pictures say a thousand words. It sure looks like you are on the exactly right track! I love the openness
From your pictures, it does look like you're putting it just above the door, which I'm guessing is 30"x80", at about 7 feet.
If you're planning to put screws through the vertical piece of the bracket into the horizontal piece, you might want to reconsider. Building codes usually consider that a fastener into the end grain has no resistance to withdrawal at all. It may feel firm when new but can loosen with time. It wouldn't take much of a sag in one bracket to send a train to the floor. I would put a wood or metal corner brace on there, if you don't waht to go all the way to a metal support. You could put a metal brace on the top without its being very obvious.
Unless you want it for appearance, any bracket length past the track width is wasted.
With the 9-inch spacing (actually closer to 8 7/8), you will miss most of the studs, however they are spaced. Even with the 12-inches that I suggested, you will still miss most of them, assuming that they are on the usual 16-inch centers. A ledger would allow you to put the track supports wherever you need them while transferring all the load directly to the studs.
Yea, I was concerned about strength. I pondered that for a long time. I wanted to keep it all wood, and I didn't want the white rubbermaid shelf look. I actually was going to put a long triangle wedge on the mount (1.5" x 4.5" triangle) that would give support to the 3/4" piece of ply. But I wasn't sold on the idea after building this. I have a 3.5" screw going though the back of the plate through the 3/5 piece (it's 5" long), and I glued it with epoxy. It seems really strong, and the screw tightened up well because of the "better" filler wood between the laminates. I pulled on it pretty hard and it didn't move, but over time, you guys might be right. I have a biscuit jointer if that will help. I figured that, and the fact that I am putting these every 8 3/4" would pretty much make this work OK.
I was going to go back and put a screw in the bottom of the mount in the center, where I was going to put the triangle wedge to help keep the mount put. Does that change things on the orientation of the screws, or would you still suggest I put them vertical? Right now, that mount isn't in a stud. I used metal drywall fasteners. They are the ones that screw in like a big screw, and then accept a #8 screw in the center of them. If I find one that is lined up with a stud, then I'll screw directly into the stud.
The ledger board is doable. I could use 1/2" birch, but I have some 1/4" that I would love to use up (and it's less bulky). If I glued them on the ledger board, I bet I could get away with using the 1/4".
Thanks for all of the help. It's a good thing you guys are here.
So with my exceptional artist skills (yea right!), here is what I was talking about with the triangle. If this isn't deemed strong enough, then I can flip the mount over and use a much bigger triangle.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/album/576460762377932354/photo/294928804084295934/10
Wes Whitmore wrote: Yea, I was concerned about strength. I pondered that for a long time. I wanted to keep it all wood, and I didn't want the white rubbermaid shelf look. I actually was going to put a long triangle wedge on the mount (1.5" x 4.5" triangle) that would give support to the 3/4" piece of ply. But I wasn't sold on the idea after building this. I have a 3.5" screw going though the back of the plate through the 3/5 piece (it's 5" long), and I glued it with epoxy. It seems really strong, and the screw tightened up well because of the "better" filler wood between the laminates. I pulled on it pretty hard and it didn't move, but over time, you guys might be right. I have a biscuit jointer if that will help. I figured that, and the fact that I am putting these every 8 3/4" would pretty much make this work OK. I was going to go back and put a screw in the bottom of the mount in the center, where I was going to put the triangle wedge to help keep the mount put. Does that change things on the orientation of the screws, or would you still suggest I put them vertical? Right now, that mount isn't in a stud. I used metal drywall fasteners. They are the ones that screw in like a big screw, and then accept a #8 screw in the center of them. If I find one that is lined up with a stud, then I'll screw directly into the stud.The ledger board is doable. I could use 1/2" birch, but I have some 1/4" that I would love to use up (and it's less bulky). If I glued them on the ledger board, I bet I could get away with using the 1/4".Thanks for all of the help. It's a good thing you guys are here.Wes
3.5" screw! Well then I guess you probably don't need the triangle brace underneath because your track is basicly resting on the screws!I would go vertical on the mount screws, honestly. Your drywall is probably at most 1/2" thick (if the builders did it right!) and putting two metal drywall anchors so close together really does cause a weak spot to form.1/4 inch ply won't give you enough grip for the screws. You definitely would need 1/2 inch ply if going with the ledger board. If you have a lot of 1/4 inch then you may be able to epoxy two layers together to create a 1/2 board. The problem here is the double 1/4 may not = 1/2... it is frustrating!
Ok, so the mount itself is probably ok then? I'll still try to break one tonight when I get home.
I did the drywall, and it's all 1/2". That sophet (sp) houses all of my A/C and an I beam). I can get into that sophet, but it doesn't do anything for most of the other walls that I can't get behind.
I see where you are saying that I could be making a weak point in the drywall. Those metal fasteners are no more than 1.25" apart. Maybe putting one above and one below the track is the better way to do it.
In reality, using 1/2" baltic birch ledger all around the room is probably the way to do it.. Not the process I wanted to take, but all of your points are valid. I want this to last a long time. I could also router a channel down the back of the ledger board so I can fish some wire through there if I needed it.
So if I use a ledger board, can I go back to the two horizonal screws? Does it matter at that point? I could put some glue on there too.
I used 1/2-inch-thick primed (and nevermore painted) molding, ripped to 2 1/2 inches, the dimension of the corner braces that my track is mounted to, because I was crossing three windows and didn't want to obscure any more of the view than necessary. With no window gaps to deal with, you can probably find suitable molding that would be easier to work with as-is and would look better than plywood.
You may be able to see from the pictures that I let the plywood corner shelf into the ledger, so that it becomes the support for that in the corner.
Even if you don't want to go to anything like the steel braces that I used, you can probably shrink your bracket design to a much smaller footprint on the wall if it is attached to the ledger. For example, you could use a simple one-piece triangle or tapered rectangle on edge, with its top edge flush with the flat top of the ledger. You could screw a small mending plate across the top of the joint, which would take the tension load, instead of a screw from the back. (You might need the extra thickness of a 1x4 for this.)
I'm probably going to stick with the ply, as all of the half wall, baseboard, and guitar boards are all done in plywood. Think "Chipotle", minus the aluminum sheeting.
I need to keep the mounts wide enough to put both ties on a joined piece of track on so I can screw them down to the mount. I think I will keep my mounts, but add the ledger board for strength, as well as the triangle piece. That should be plenty strong enough for my needs.
Hey, what about using a toggle bolt in the vertical configuration? Then I wouldn't need the ledger board at all. Any thoughts?
I found this, which is pretty much what I'm doing after moving to vertical mounting. As a plus, i can tweak the mount to get it exactly level since the holes for the toggle is pretty big and everything will move around a little until it's snugged down.
http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/bath/accy/towlbar.html
My L shaped 22 X 12 around the walls layout is mostly on 4 ft. long free standing shelves I built. They are 18 inches wide and stand about 42" high. The loops at each end are freestanding Tables, again custom sized for the track layout and built by me. The cool thing about the shelving is it becomes a modular (movable) layout and includes other shelves below the layout for other displays of railroad or model things. Under the loop tables are great for storage.
Well I picked up a box of toggles after work and installed one along side the one I already had, plus a third that actually lined up with a stud and I installed it with a screw and finish washer. I placed my Buckeye train on there to see how it all looked. I has the visability that I wanted, and with toggles that are rated at 70 lbs, I think this will work just fine not using a shelf, or a ledger board.
Thanks,
yallaen wrote:I was really interested in this post, as this is what I'm about to tackle.
Yall:
While it's not the be all and end all, check out the layout I am building in the link in my sig line. There may be some pointers in there for you. This is the top level of my layout in progress and I will have a full main level beanth it. In particular, you may be interested in the scenery I have set up the corners, having streets come out from the corners, creating some interest in a small space.
Yea, I can see where you either like it, or you don't. Most of these kinds of layouts are on shelves, I have a site bookmarked that has a shelf all the way around a room and he used "star" wallpaper for a background, and used white styrofoam to simulate a snowy ground. This was used on a polar express train. It looks really good.
I wanted to see as much train as possible, and I wanted to be able to be able to turn the smoke up and down easily without taking the train off of the track. I still plan on doing a corner shelf with scenery, and some walls will have shelves. My ceilings are rather low, so the track is as high as low as it can be to be over the doors, but not hit the ceiling. That left around 7.5". At that height, most buildins would be close to hitting the ceiling.
We will see how it turns out. I can always change it! Wouldn't a 10' long bridge look cool? It might be hard to get a stuck train out of it though.
Edit - Wow, that is the site I have been looking for. Thanks for posting it!
yallaen wrote:I was really interested in this post, as this is what I'm about to tackle. However, I do not like the openess that this design affords :(. I'm looking at using plywood, about 4-6" wide, and secured to shelving brackets about every foot or so apart. I want to add scenary to the trackage area as it goes around the room. In one corner, I'd like to add a small station or something eye-catching. I'd route the wires underneath the plywood, and cover them up with cable cover or something. I'm considering using foam for insulator, but don't know how that will take to scenery. Thoughts? Perhaps just that woodland scenic roadbed for insulation...
Yallaen,I posted this earlier in thread. The result here is very clean and the crown molding actually forms a 'channel' you can run your wires inside. And since it is closer to the wall you won't see any of your track connections either!
lionroar88 wrote:Ever thought of using a 'stepped' crown molding? You could eliminate the brackets and use the crown to support the horizontal subroadbed.I saw this done at a restaurant many years ago. Basicly what they did was take a 1x6 and nail that to the wall parallel to the line. They then attached 1.4 round cove molding (so the curve is concave, not convex) to the bottom. Then they took a 1 x 4 and nailed that to the 1x6, top edge even. Then nailed a dental molding along the bottom of the 1x4. Then they found a 3.5 inch crown and attached that to the 1x4 so the top was parallel to the top of the 1x6 and 1x4. The result was 3+ inches of support for the ply subroad bed.
Frank,
That is absolutely awesome, and well beyond my skillset. I've never done modeling, and only planned on doing a little on this kit because I don't know what I am doing. It's obvious when you compare the two. I love the 2 track layout and the varying grades. Keep up the great work!
lionroar88 wrote: yallaen wrote:I was really interested in this post, as this is what I'm about to tackle. However, I do not like the openess that this design affords :(. I'm looking at using plywood, about 4-6" wide, and secured to shelving brackets about every foot or so apart. I want to add scenary to the trackage area as it goes around the room. In one corner, I'd like to add a small station or something eye-catching. I'd route the wires underneath the plywood, and cover them up with cable cover or something. I'm considering using foam for insulator, but don't know how that will take to scenery. Thoughts? Perhaps just that woodland scenic roadbed for insulation...Yallaen,I posted this earlier in thread. The result here is very clean and the crown molding actually forms a 'channel' you can run your wires inside. And since it is closer to the wall you won't see any of your track connections either! lionroar88 wrote:Ever thought of using a 'stepped' crown molding? You could eliminate the brackets and use the crown to support the horizontal subroadbed.I saw this done at a restaurant many years ago. Basicly what they did was take a 1x6 and nail that to the wall parallel to the line. They then attached 1.4 round cove molding (so the curve is concave, not convex) to the bottom. Then they took a 1 x 4 and nailed that to the 1x6, top edge even. Then nailed a dental molding along the bottom of the 1x4. Then they found a 3.5 inch crown and attached that to the 1x4 so the top was parallel to the top of the 1x6 and 1x4. The result was 3+ inches of support for the ply subroad bed.If you want to add scenery to the loop, you will want to go with a minimum of 1 x 6. This will give you enough depth behind the engine and cars, but I would really recommend 1 x 8. You could cut costs by using furniture grade plywood and having it cut to the width boards you are using. Lowes will do this for free, I think you get 2 free cuts per board and $.25 per cut after. You can get 6 1 x 8 boards out of 1 sheet of ply!
YES! That's exactly what I was thinking...getting plywood sheets from Lowes, having them cut the straight pieces to my dimensions! YES!! But, the shelving brackets..I was thinking of just the cheap metal ones from Lowes/Walmart etc..I want to run double track..good width suggestions??
If you are going to use the metal shelf supports, I would probably do a nice wide ledge for two tracks, unless you want to split them up like Frank did. Just make them as wide as the support is designed to hold so you have plenty of room. Here are some links.
http://www.trainweb.org/wgr/Overhead/overhead.html
http://users.sisna.com/kevinm2/
I attached 3 more brackets tonight. I'm all out, and need to make another batch. The whole train fits on there now.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804098794287/0
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804098785464/1
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804098794242/2
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804098794213/3
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804098794199/4
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804098820832/5
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804098785265/7
yallaen wrote: lionroar88 wrote: yallaen wrote:I was really interested in this post, as this is what I'm about to tackle. However, I do not like the openess that this design affords :(. I'm looking at using plywood, about 4-6" wide, and secured to shelving brackets about every foot or so apart. I want to add scenary to the trackage area as it goes around the room. In one corner, I'd like to add a small station or something eye-catching. I'd route the wires underneath the plywood, and cover them up with cable cover or something. I'm considering using foam for insulator, but don't know how that will take to scenery. Thoughts? Perhaps just that woodland scenic roadbed for insulation...Yallaen,I posted this earlier in thread. The result here is very clean and the crown molding actually forms a 'channel' you can run your wires inside. And since it is closer to the wall you won't see any of your track connections either! lionroar88 wrote:Ever thought of using a 'stepped' crown molding? You could eliminate the brackets and use the crown to support the horizontal subroadbed.I saw this done at a restaurant many years ago. Basicly what they did was take a 1x6 and nail that to the wall parallel to the line. They then attached 1.4 round cove molding (so the curve is concave, not convex) to the bottom. Then they took a 1 x 4 and nailed that to the 1x6, top edge even. Then nailed a dental molding along the bottom of the 1x4. Then they found a 3.5 inch crown and attached that to the 1x4 so the top was parallel to the top of the 1x6 and 1x4. The result was 3+ inches of support for the ply subroad bed.If you want to add scenery to the loop, you will want to go with a minimum of 1 x 6. This will give you enough depth behind the engine and cars, but I would really recommend 1 x 8. You could cut costs by using furniture grade plywood and having it cut to the width boards you are using. Lowes will do this for free, I think you get 2 free cuts per board and $.25 per cut after. You can get 6 1 x 8 boards out of 1 sheet of ply! YES! That's exactly what I was thinking...getting plywood sheets from Lowes, having them cut the straight pieces to my dimensions! YES!! But, the shelving brackets..I was thinking of just the cheap metal ones from Lowes/Walmart etc..I want to run double track..good width suggestions??
If you are running double track I think you will need to go up to 10 - 12 inches, but I'm not 100% sure. It really depends on the size cars and engines you intend to run. I think you need at least 6 - 7 inches between the center rails, but again not 100% certain.
Hobo
Installing a 3-1/2" plexiglas barrier fence along the edge will stop tumbles to the deck. I have derailled my 2-8-8-2 Mallet and 4-6-6-4 Challenger intentionally and they never scaled the barrier [3 track upper shelf at 9'-6", 2 track lower shelf at 7'-4" above the floor]. Once it derrails at any speed it has no power and dies against the barrier.
4'x8' sheet of plexiglas from Lowe's. Cut to 3-1/2" width by 4' or 8' long[your choice on length but I used 8' since it bends easily around curves]. Scored [cut] and separated on Lowe's vertical glass cutter--first two cuts free, each additional 25 cents per.
So I have a question. Does the protosmoke liquid that makes my MTH train smoke stain ceilings? My smoke stack is only 2 or 3 inches from the ceiling...
Well, my whole family (including my 6mo old son) got the stomach flu the day after Christmas. I'm still not feeling grate, and my son Jack leaves us a great present in his diaper with an intersting color. Anyhow, I made some more mounts, and started to build the tunnels through the sump pump closet. I think I'm going to build a shelf on the long wall so I can actually do some modeling in the future. Before that though, I need to build the tunnel to protect the trains from falling into the sump pump, and the corner out in the room to hold the buckeye billboard.
I was thinking that I would like to go back and build some bridges to tie in some of those mounts, but I will have to ask for some pointers from the people who know.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804125835032/0
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804125827698/1
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804125834975/2
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804125834902/3
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804125834905/4
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804125827558/5
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804125834848/6
You might try something like this for spanning window gaps. Made from inexpensive curtain track, scraps of plywood and extruded aluminum shapes from Home Depot.Derailments are easily accessable too.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5cf39b3127cce950826cce6d700000016108AbNWjls3bub
Bruce Webster
That looks great! Do you have any more pictures of that layout? I would love to see what was done in the corners, and maybe some more details of the crown moulding shelf? What are those concrete pillars from?
Thanks
Here is a site they you guys may wish to look at for wall mounted trains
http://www.cliffhangers.cc/index.html
I am a person with a very active inner child. This is why my wife loves me so. Willoughby, Ohio - the home of the CP & E RR. OTTS Founder www.spankybird.shutterfly.com
I've seen that page. Very nice stuff.
I'm more interested in the mounts, railing, and support structures of the system. From the looks of that picture, there are some things that I would like to see a little bit better.
lionroar88 wrote:Wess,Ever thought of using a 'stepped' crown molding? You could eliminate the brackets and use the crown to support the horizontal subroadbed.I saw this done at a restaurant many years ago. Basicly what they did was take a 1x6 and nail that to the wall parallel to the line. They then attached 1.4 round cove molding (so the curve is concave, not convex) to the bottom. Then they took a 1 x 4 and nailed that to the 1x6, top edge even. Then nailed a dental molding along the bottom of the 1x4. Then they found a 3.5 inch crown and attached that to the 1x4 so the top was parallel to the top of the 1x6 and 1x4. The result was 3+ inches of support for the ply subroad bed.It looked awesome! I know it maybe very expensive, but you could use paint grade boards to reduce the cost.
Sorry for not considering this more in the beginning. I mainly didn't want to do this because I didn't know what I was going to do with the curved corners, and still don't, but I'm not really happy with my first attempt. Any idea what you would do for corners?
Wes Whitmore wrote: lionroar88 wrote:Wess,Ever thought of using a 'stepped' crown molding? You could eliminate the brackets and use the crown to support the horizontal subroadbed.I saw this done at a restaurant many years ago. Basicly what they did was take a 1x6 and nail that to the wall parallel to the line. They then attached 1.4 round cove molding (so the curve is concave, not convex) to the bottom. Then they took a 1 x 4 and nailed that to the 1x6, top edge even. Then nailed a dental molding along the bottom of the 1x4. Then they found a 3.5 inch crown and attached that to the 1x4 so the top was parallel to the top of the 1x6 and 1x4. The result was 3+ inches of support for the ply subroad bed.It looked awesome! I know it maybe very expensive, but you could use paint grade boards to reduce the cost. Sorry for not considering this more in the beginning. I mainly didn't want to do this because I didn't know what I was going to do with the curved corners, and still don't, but I'm not really happy with my first attempt. Any idea what you would do for corners? Thanks,Wes
This link shows different Inside and Outside Crown Molding Corners:http://www.s4sindustries.com/crown.html
These guys sell 'flexible' crown molding:http://www.ultraflexmoulding.com/
These are the corners similiar to HomeDepot:http://webpages.charter.net/pronobis/
Hope this helps!Brent
Thanks Brent. I guess I could just run them into the corners at 45 degrees, and just make the corner top shelf overhand the molding as much as it needs to do to hold the track.
I'm trying to rework my plans and go back to a shelf based system on the bulk of the line. I like how my shorter mounts turned out, and I like being able to see under the train, but I want a shelf around the bulk of the line so I can do some modeling. I would like to keep the track to an 8" width, which doesn't leave me much room, but since my track is so close to the ceilings, I don't want do go much wider than that, or you won't be able to see anything. If I only had 6' tall doors in there! My tunnels have to go above the doors, so I'm pretty much stuck.
I have found that I can build a little train holding section on the wall that I just added those mounts to. I can use a single 42" left track change and run a 6' piece of strait parrallel with the regular line. When I get the DCS and can run two tracks on the same track, I will be able to easily get the track moved into position before the other train makes the look. I can put a train back in the yard when I can't keep an eye on their speed. I think I'll like that.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Boyd,
I don't have any plans to block any windows or doors (I have been trying to design around them), but you brought up a great idea with the "lift up" track section. I imagine a piece of shelf on a hinge with all pins removed, and wiring to that section that is always "hot" regardless of position. You could just fold it up and open the door, or whatever. Good idea!
I have changed my mind many times because I'm learning as I go. New ideas come from bad ideas, I guess.
Wes Whitmore wrote: Boyd,I don't have any plans to block any windows or doors (I have been trying to design around them), but you brought up a great idea with the "lift up" track section. I imagine a piece of shelf on a hinge with all pins removed, and wiring to that section that is always "hot" regardless of position. You could just fold it up and open the door, or whatever. Good idea!I have changed my mind many times because I'm learning as I go. New ideas come from bad ideas, I guess.Wes
I could do that. It would bring some depth to the layout. The most realistic and clean way to do that is probably with graduating trusses. Put the shelf at the lowest level that I want to be at, and then keep using longer and longer trusses to get my height that I want to get to. I only worry about grade. I think someone said that 6% grade is really pushing it, and at 77" long wall (the one between the sump pump closet and the corner in my pictures), that leaves about a 4.5" rise, max. If 3% grade seems more train friendly, then it's going to be just over 2" on that wall. So I would probably have to extend the grade around the corner and use the long strait to get my rise safely. I'll measure my lowest part, total length of the two walls, and desired ending height and get back with you!
Before this post, I was thinking about ripping out all of my mounts, putting a shelf at the bottom of that sophet with the short mounts, and find some trusses to raise the track up to the level of my first tunnel. It would be in the back of the shelf, so I would have the whole front of the shelf to model on, and the track would look really good on the trusses. The only problem is finding that many trusses. I was about to ask for help on how to build them, or a place I can get them. Since that track is close to 15' long, that's going to be a lot of trusses every 9".
I like where all of this is going though.
Are you looking for the O-27 graduated trestle set? If so I have one I could send you if you cover shipping. I have no need for it and it is taking up space in the storage bins that I will need to hide the 0-8-0 switcher I promised not to buy that somehow ended up on my credit card! I may also have the O-27 elevated trestle set, but that will take some finding because I didn't see it when I reorganized the bins to store the Christmas gifts... I think I need to make a trip to Target and get some more bins...BTW Wes I may be doing something similiar in my new house! The wife and I were talking about the new train room and I said that I wanted a really long mainline and I was thinking about running the mainline around the main room in the basement on a shelf (this has now grown into a two track mainline). She asked where I got that idea, and I told her about this thread on here... she wanted to know how to access the forums and I told her you had to have a secret decoder ring and fill out a 30 page application... She didn't seem too concerned about the shelf system, the only restrictions were: 1. No Smoke 2. No sounds and 3. It has to be easily dismantled so when we move in 5 - 10 years it won't hamper selling the house.
I told her all I'll have to do is remove the track and patch the tunnel portals in the walls.
It's great that she is willing to have it in her basement! And even better for you...You could always leave it there to help the resale value. They make good smelling smoke, you might want to try that on her.
I am looking for a tressel set. Is it the Lionel one? If so, I have read in my catalog that it raises 4.5". I think I would rather use the constant height elevated one, if my new plans work out, but you never know until you start building. Don't go digging for it. Thanks for the offer, it's very nice! I'll see if it's going to work out before I claim it. I wouldn't want to waste it. I think I might have to make it as it is probably going to have to be bigger than 4.5" too. I need to go down and measure just how high.
So on my way home, I stopped at lowes and checked out all of the shelf mounts that they have. There is a lot more available out there than I thought. I found 4 different mounts that I liked, but left them to come home and think more. I went to our local ACE, and they might just have the perfect mount for me. I tried to find one on the internet, but couldn't find one. I'll just go get one and take a picture. It's an extruded piece of aluminum that you can paint any color. It's a triangle that have a notch in it that holds a shelf board. It will hold a ton of weight, and it's almost invisable. I think it's exactly what I am looking for.
Stay tuned,
Here is the mount. Its 32" long, and holds over 125 lbs if mounted in studs. It's all metal, and I was planning on painting it the same color as my walls so it blends in as much as possible. It's made to hold the standard 5/8" shelf, so I will have to dado down my 3/4" birch ply to fit. It might just work out well.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/album/576460762377932354/photo/294928804132567800/25
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/album/576460762377932354/photo/294928804132593056/26
I'm just holding it there with my other hand. I want to paint it first. At $16 each, they are a little pricey, but I like them more than anything else. I will probably need 4 of them for my long run down my next wall. Just for reference, it's 7.25" from the wall to the outside of that tunnel. I'm not sure how much wider I should go than 8" as any wider will obstruct my view.
Looks cool. Can you run the wires inside it?
Keep us posted on how it works out!
It's hollow, but I would have to run pieces end to end, from wall to wall. That might get expensive on my 18' wall! If I can get it past the wife, I would prefer to do that. I'm going to see if they make longer pieces before I go buy out the store though.
Does anyone know if interior latex housepaint will stick to powdercoated steel? What kind of prep do I need to do to get it to stick?
So i was reading another post here, and it raised a question for me. Where can I find some good schematics on creating automatic train operations based off of train location? I found this:
http://www.thortrains.net/liolayb.gif
I want something close to this. I would like to run two trains on one track in opposite directions (at each other). I would like to hold a train in a roundout loop until the oncoming train passes by. That way I would have two trains going around the room at the same time. I could put one of these loops on each end of the oval so I have continuous train action. The 4 switches would need to be automatially thrown as well. It's starting to trickle through the layers of my head as I think about it. This stuff is great.
Here's a way to run two trains alternately around a loop, but without a siding, since they both go in the same direction:
Create a "stop" block and an "approach" block just before the stop block, each long enough to hold a train. Let the center rail be continuous all around the room and through both the stop and approach blocks. However, isolate one outside rail in the approach block and both outside rails in the stop block. Connect all the isolated rails together.
Here's how it works: A train sits in the stop block, not moving because the outside rails are not connected to anything. The other train travels around the room and then enters the approach block. Its wheels bridge the approach-block outside rails, grounding the stop-block outside rails and supplying voltage to the stopped train, which moves out of the stop block. The second train passes from the approach block to the stop block, where it stops, since there is no train following close behind it (yet).
This scheme is best used with plastic couplers (or couplers that you have deliberately insulated with tape through the mated knuckles), so that current does not flow from truck to truck through the couplers as a train enters the stop block. This current can burn out the knuckle springs.
A further refinement is a red-green signal at the end of the stop block. Wire the red lamp to the (non-isolated) outside rails, the green lamp to the center rail, and the common between them to the isolated outside rails.
Here's how that works: When there is a train in the stop block but no train in the approach block, the train's motor is in parallel with the green lamp and in series with the red lamp, so the red lamp lights. When the other train enters the approach block, it shorts out the red lamp and puts full track voltage on the green lamp, at the same time that the stopped train starts up. When the second train is fully within the stop block, the light goes back to red just as that train stops.
I think it's going to be hard to paint. It's powdercoated white, and I don't know if I can just get a can of rustoleum and paint over it or not. I might have to sand it down first.
So I could use some help on where these switches in the link are getting their power, and what is tripping them? I think I have the rest figured out (the grounding blocks). What trips these switches?
lionelsoni wrote: Here's a way to run two trains alternately around a loop, but without a siding, since they both go in the same direction:Create a "stop" block and an "approach" block just before the stop block, each long enough to hold a train. Let the center rail be continuous all around the room and through both the stop and approach blocks. However, isolate one outside rail in the approach block and both outside rails in the stop block. Connect all the isolated rails together.Here's how it works: A train sits in the stop block, not moving because the outside rails are not connected to anything. The other train travels around the room and then enters the approach block. Its wheels bridge the approach-block outside rails, grounding the stop-block outside rails and supplying voltage to the stopped train, which moves out of the stop block. The second train passes from the approach block to the stop block, where it stops, since there is no train following close behind it (yet).This scheme is best used with plastic couplers (or couplers that you have deliberately insulated with tape through the mated knuckles), so that current does not flow from truck to truck through the couplers as a train enters the stop block. This current can burn out the knuckle springs.A further refinement is a red-green signal at the end of the stop block. Wire the red lamp to the (non-isolated) outside rails, the green lamp to the center rail, and the common between them to the isolated outside rails.Here's how that works: When there is a train in the stop block but no train in the approach block, the train's motor is in parallel with the green lamp and in series with the red lamp, so the red lamp lights. When the other train enters the approach block, it shorts out the red lamp and puts full track voltage on the green lamp, at the same time that the stopped train starts up. When the second train is fully within the stop block, the light goes back to red just as that train stops.
That's what I'm talking about! That all makes sense. So if I move that approach block to halfway around the track, then I can get both trains going at the same time, right?
Train A sits in the stop block. Train B in in front of it, working around the loop. Halfway around the loop it hits the Approach bock, turning on Train A. As train B hits the stop block and waits. Train A hits the Apporach block and sends B on, and so on. I would think that any of these would be best to set your speeds of the trains as close together as possible, but your stop block idea should keep them from every hitting.
My MTH train does take a couple of seconds to take off though. The only problem I see is if the train just released from the stop block would reach the approach block before the train in front of it hit the stop block. You could probably put a second approach block right in front of the stop block for safety.
Thanks for your input. It is exactly what I needed
Well according to the link, He just wired apposing switches in reverse so when one throws one way, the other one throws for the other train, I guess.
Brent, note that I said "they both go in the same direction" in describing my scheme, which is what I use above my layout, with no sidings.
Wes, you could put the approach block halfway around. In that case the faster train would have to be no more than twice as fast as the slower one. Mine is close to the stop block because I like the action of each train's stopping at the signal after the other starts up.
Running in the same direction is easier, for sure. It's also cheaper, as you do not need any track switching! But, you also don't get and trains passing each other, which I kinda like. Of course, only one train is moving at a time, but it's a start. I don't like how slow this build is going! I need to decide what I want to do so I can get some train action going! Why don't I just settle for the premade shelving!
The main thing slowing me down is finding the same quality birch plywood that I already have, and ran out of. The stuff at the local lowes is back to being junk. I guess I lucked out on the piece that I have. I am going to have to drive all the way to the east side of Columbus and get a sheet of the good stuff, I guess. I'm still deciding what wall I want to be a shelf, and what wall I want to use the mounts like I already have. I guess I'm indecisive.
lionelsoni wrote: Brent, note that I said "they both go in the same direction" in describing my scheme, which is what I use above my layout, with no sidings.Wes, you could put the approach block halfway around. In that case the faster train would have to be no more than twice as fast as the slower one. Mine is close to the stop block because I like the action of each train's stopping at the signal after the other starts up.
Wes Whitmore wrote: Running in the same direction is easier, for sure. It's also cheaper, as you do not need any track switching! But, you also don't get and trains passing each other, which I kinda like. Of course, only one train is moving at a time, but it's a start. I don't like how slow this build is going! I need to decide what I want to do so I can get some train action going! Why don't I just settle for the premade shelving!The main thing slowing me down is finding the same quality birch plywood that I already have, and ran out of. The stuff at the local lowes is back to being junk. I guess I lucked out on the piece that I have. I am going to have to drive all the way to the east side of Columbus and get a sheet of the good stuff, I guess. I'm still deciding what wall I want to be a shelf, and what wall I want to use the mounts like I already have. I guess I'm indecisive.Wes
Wes,Have you considered a two track system? You would eliminate a lot of questions, you could even add a double crossover to allow you to 'switch' tracks, our make them inter-looping by using a crossover (think a figure 8 where one side is inside the other).
I have tried to find room for a 2 track system. Behind the TV it gets pretty tight. I guess I could move the TV, (or get a flat panel!) and I would be set. I would have to buy double tunnels instead of the singles that I have, but that shouldn't be a problem. When I originally designed my first mount, I didn't plan on 2 tracks, but I do have a way to do it without tearing down what's already mounted. I just wanted to try to put some track switches in my plan, and I thought that I found a way.
If anyone has an 042 left switcher, would you please measure how wide of a board needs to be to mount it on there. I want to cut my shelf and I don't know how wide to do it until I get my switch. I will be putting in a piece of 042 curve so I can run a parallel line with the straight section.
So tonight I put a thin piece of 1/4" birch ply on my mounts to see what it would be like if I had a small shelf all the way around the room. I lost my visability of seeing under the train, but I think I like the look better when looking from a distance. I also tried it with what little MTH track I had. You can barely see the track, so I don't think I need to switch all of my track to MTH, although I think it's probably a better platform to work with over the long run. It's just so much more expensive. The ply isn't rounded or stained. It's just to get an idea if I like it or not.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/album/576460762377932354/photo/294928804135358805/27
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/album/576460762377932354/photo/294928804135366768/28
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/album/576460762377932354/photo/294928804135374559/29
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/album/576460762377932354/photo/294928804135381774/30
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/album/576460762377932354/photo/294928804135390762/31
That link I added is for two trains headed towards each other. They use 4 switchers, which gives you the track path to get around the other train. Here is the link, just scroll down to Figure 76.
http://www.thortrains.net/modelrr0.htm
Lionelsoni,
So from what you are telling me, 5 1/2" centers + 1 1/4" to the edge, plus the same distance on the divergent track gives me a requirement of around 8" wide mounting board to get the whole assembly on a shelf? That sounds perfect. I'm going to go look at one today. Thanks for measuring for me. I would love to be able to put my switcher on a board no wider than 8 3/8" wide.
Thanks for everything,
The 1 1/4 is just to the edge of the turnout's base. You'll need more clearance for the train. If you go with the transparent safety wall idea, you'll need that clearance on both sides of the double track. The clearance will have to include the extra room for the bodies to swing out at curves.
You can actually get away with about 6 inches total (5 1/2 without the transparent wall) in the bulk of the siding by curving the track back closer together between the switches. This way you would have a wide spot only at each end of the siding.
If you do use the transparent wall, consider mounting it on standoffs instead of directly to the shelf. That way the track centerline can come to within 1 inch of the shelf edge, for better visibility. Also there will be no hard-to-clean outer corner to catch dust.
You will probably see a reflection of the white ceiling in the plastic, obscuring the view of the trains. You could paint (or cover) the ceiling black near the track, or use something like a heavy-wire fence instead.
That's not a problem at all. I'm sure someone will find your post useful.
So I went to the Train store at lunch to see what they had in way of switchings. They had a pair of 27" 027 switches. They were much cheaper than the 042 switches (They only had a single one). I took a left hand 27" switch and connected a straight to the existing strait piece, and a single 27" curve on the switched curve track to get two parallel track sections. It looks like I will need a 10.5" shelf to safely clear the wall. I might be able to bring it in a little smaller than that once I find out exactly how much swing out my train does. I'm sure the 042 would have worked with a much smaller shelf, but I didn't want to spend the extra $20 per switch, when I want 4 of them.
Wes, there's a way to have your cake and eat it too: Just curve the diverging track back toward the tangent track instead of keeping it 7.322 inches away. I can e-mail you a picture of this with the tracks only 3 inches apart on centers. The two O27 curves to do this are cut to a chord length (the distance as the crow flies between the ends of the center rail) of 7.35 inches. If you consider this recurved track to be part of the turnout and don't park a train in it, there will be no swing-out problem.
If you send me your e-mail address I can send you a picture of it.
You lost me, but a picture will probably do it.
weswhitmore@yahoo.com
Thanks!
Here is my picture, fixed up for me by Wes:
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/album/576460762377932354/photo/294928804137569714/32
Wes said: "...but that doesn't solve the problem that I still need a shelf as wide as that widest point, which is over 10". It does bring the to tracks together, but it has to go wide first. I don't think there is any way around that."
That's true; but that wide shelf needs to be only a few feet long; the bulk of the track can use a narrower shelf. I don't know what the room geography is; but you might be able to integrate the switch areas into two corners of a room. In that case, there is a different arrangement that you can use that will take up less space and avoid the S curve. I'll send it to you.
I understand that link I posted now, mainly because I got my first switch yesterday. All you have to do is wire the controls of the top and bottom switch on the left out of phase, as well as the top and bottom on the right out of phase. Just like the picture kinda shows. The train will throw the switchers in the right direction for you automatcially.
Train A traveling counter-clockwise starting at the top of the track (above section B) will enter the top left switch in the backward direction of the switcher, and the corner will be activated when the wheels enter near the Y, setting it in the straight position. At the same time, because you have a wire that connects to the straight side of that top left switcher to the divergent pin on the bottom left switcher, the BL (bottom left) switcher will be aligned for when the train goes around to the bottom of the track to pull into section C, and stop (because of the dead section in section C). Train B will be released a few seconds before as Train A passes section A.
Train B will leave clockwise out of section B, and since it hits it's first switcher backwards, will trip it in the diverged state. The wire connecting that top right (TR) switch will trip the bottom right (BR) switch into the straight position so train B will pass right by section C (where train A waits). As train B hits the bottom left (BL) switch backwards, it set the TL switcher into the divergent direction so train B can pull into section B and stop. Train A was released as train B passed section A. Lastly, train A pulls out of section C, hitting the BR switcher backwards, which will set the TR switcher in the straight position, allowing train A to pass by section B (where train B sits) in a counter-clockwise position headed to section A, where train B is realeased, and it all happens again! As long as your switchers fire, you will never collide.
Its a great design, but how much abuse can these switches take? I think each switcher gets energized at least twice per complete cycle, and more if each wheel makes a pulse as it completes a ground.
To prevent even more unnecessary ground pulses to a switcher, is there a way to have an entire train only send one pulse as it passes through a zone? It seams like since all of the trunks have solid axle wheels, each time the next wheel hits, the ground is going to be completed across the rails and it's going to energize the switch. You almost need to put rubber bands on all of the wheels on one side of a train, except for one. How do people get around this problem?
O31 turnouts don't do this; they have an internal switch that shuts off the coil after the points move. O27 turnouts do it all the time, whether they're wired together or not. I have never seen one wear out in a way that seemed to be related to this behavior.
I have often recommended another way of operating O27 turnouts in response to complaints about the buzzing that happens when you park a car on the turnout with voltage on the track. This will destroy the turnout. The trick is to operate the turnout with direct current, provided from a charged capacitor. You have to get the coil common disconnected from the center rails and bring it out of the turnout, connecting it to a grounded (to the outside rails) 5000-microfarad, 25-volt electrolytic capacitor charged from a DC supply through a 100-ohm, 10-watt resistor. The DC supply can be nothing more than a 1N4001 rectifier from an AC accessory terminal of a transformer with its common grounded.
The first time the turnout is thrown, the capacitor supplies the energy. Then, the other wheels that pass over the control rail keep the capacitor discharged. The current that flows is just the trickle that the resistor allows. When the train is gone, the capacitor recharges in a few seconds and is ready for the next time.
I am going to have to try that when the time comes. Is the O31 you are refering to the highrail turnout? I didn't think that Lionel made a O31. I know MTH does.
I started working on my shelf last night. No pictures as all I did was cut it to length and width.
Well I do like that single switching feature.
I have been giving serious consideration to ditching the O27 track and moving to all MTH track. It seems a lot louder, but I think it will look better and hold up better. Any thoughts?
It's expensive, but I don't have to build it all now.
Good, because I already have a bunch of it. I should be able to get the shelf finished and the track mounted on it this weekend. I'll feel better about this once I get some part of the project completed.
I found this site just now, and it's pretty close to what I was wanting to do. It's much better of course, and made from oak. It's also $24 per foot for the straights, and more for the corners. And it's G scale. It answered a lot of the questions I had about mounting, so I'm going to incorperate them.
http://www.locoboose.com/trestle/skytrestle.htm
Sadly enough, my shelf layout still does not exist after several years. I haven't decided if it should be one particular scale or a combination of 2 or more...?
The forum link below, that I started several years ago, had some great suggestions. You may find it beneficial to look through some of them.
Building a Shelf Layout
I hope you get further along than I did.
Brad
One thing about trains: It doesn't matter where they’re going. What matters is deciding to get on.
Sotaboy,
I'm sorry to hear about that. I'll go read about your issues with getting it completed.
I fastened down track to the two walls worth of mounts. After finding a site that does highend G scale ceiling track, I found a few more things I can do that will make it look a little better as it is, and still allow me to see the trains through the track from below.
I'm not sure about the 27" track corners now though. One the ground, the train performed fine, negotiating the corner easily, but when you are looking up at it and watching how sharp it has to turn, and how wide it has to swing, I am a little concerned. Also, when I put my Alaskan Diesel loco on there, it's swing out is so great that it hits the last mount before the corner. It's a longer train though. I'm thinking of getting a couple pieces of 42" curves and see how I like them. I would go bigger, but I don't think they make 72" curves in 027 gauge, and a shimmed up piece wouldn't look right.
All in all, I make some progress yesterday!
K-Line made O72 in O27 profile. You can probably still find sellers on the internet who have it in stock. I will repeat my suggestion of spiral curves that I made in the reply to your first posting:
In the corners, I use spiral curves to ease the track away from the wall before turning more sharply. My corners are O72-O27-O72, on small plywood shelves. This takes up not much more room than a simple O27-O27 corner.
You can see that the corners, even though they include O72, are not very large at all, because most of the turning happens in the O27 section in the middle of the curve. My tangent track is only 1 7/8 inch from the wall.
I picked up a 42" Kline corner from my local hobby shop. It's the only shop I know if that has something other than 027 27" curved pieces. That curve is much better. If I could find some Kline 72" curves, I would love to try your idea. Does the single 027 profile piece still cause any problems with trains navigating? Would a complete 42" corner, although it's out from the wall, create smoother operation because of that single 27" curve piece? If I'm going to try to hunt down some Kline track, I want to make sure it's worth it. If not, I'll just order Lionel's 42" or the 54" track, which I should be able to find.
I got a full circle (16 pieces) of K-Line O72 from http://www.hobbylinc.com/ in August for just under $40, including shipping.
The spiral is smoother than a single-radius curve, because the curvature increases gradually (okay, in two steps rather than one in this toy-train case). Prototype railroads use them extensively, with many more steps, to ease into curves.
Although an O42-O42-O42 curve starts about 2 3/4 inches closer to the corner than an O72-O27-O72 curve does, the center of the O42-O42-O42 curve is 3/4 inch farther from the corner. So they're quite similar in the space they occupy. But the gentler O72 start to the curve means that the spiral's overhang is no worse than that of a complete O72-O72-O72-O72 curve; so the tangent track can be closer to the wall than with the similar-sized O42-O42-O42 curve.
Another thought: Overhang increases approximately inversely as the square of the track radius, for any particular car or locomotive. So O42 produces about 3 times the overhang that O72 does. (And O27 about 8 times.)
Depth from wall aside, is the O72-O27-O72 curve still limit the trains that can run on it? Does that O27 piece still create problems with long axle locomotives?
I am thinking of hanging that center piece from the ceiling anyhow, since my track is so close to the ceiling, and I wouldn't be able to see any scenery that I put on a wall mounted shelf. If that is the case, I can just go with an O54 or even an O72 curve. That way, I'm not limited to trains that can run on it in th future.
It depends on whether the curvature restriction is due to the wheelbase of the individual trucks or engines or on the length between them and the angle through which they will turn. For example, my 773 and my Big Boy's centipede tender originally had trouble just because the middle wheels, even though they were blind, touched the center rail on switches. This happened even within the single curved section of a switch. On the other hand, the engines of the Big Boy had no problem, because of their shorter individual wheelbases.
I think that many times, manufacturers specify a curvature more for aesthetics or marketing than for mechanics. MTH seems to want to restrict everything they make to O31, even though much of it has no problem with O27 (which they don't make...;-).
Wel it's my Lionel that was having troubles navigating the turn. The MTH does a better job, and the speed control feature just makes it a better performer on O27 corners. Still, I wouldn't mind making it a little safer, and look better too. There is a lot of train hanging over the rail in those O27 curves, especially with the Alaskcan Diesel from Lionel. I took a picture of the O42 track on top of the O27 curve to show the difference. It's night and day. I'm not sure if I should step up to O54 just to make it even wider. I guess I could make a spiral curve with O54-O27-O54 as well.
I'm sorry I haven't been able to send more pictures of my shelf layout as you requested. Every attempt has been fruitless due to something I can't understand. I'll try to post them once I figure out what I'm doing wrong.
I think you've been getting great assistance from Bob. I've found his benchwork engineering, electical knowhow and mechanical inovations to be first rate. Even though he may not know it, he's been teaching us all a lot about problem solving here in the forum.
Bruce,
No problem at all. Bob has helped me a ton, and I keep coming back to his posts when I'm not sure what I'm doing. You can try to email me one picture at a time if you want. I'll even post them for you if you would like.
So I have a wall with two 45 degree angles in them, and I want to keep the track close to the wall. Do you think that I can use a single piece of O27, or will even one piece be too sharp to make a reliable line? I figure if your O72 can be used i the spiral, then a single track piece would probably be OK. If not, then I am going to have some troubles keeping the lines clean around the room. It probably depends on the train more than anything I guess. I could use two pieces of O52 to get the 45, but it is going to pull off the wall too much to align with the straight piece that is 3" off of the wall measured from the inside track.
My goal is to make this track sturdy enough to put a MTH (O31 safe) big boy on there with the passenger cars. It's a long train.
You would need two pieces of O72 for a 45-degree corner, just as you would for O54.
I'm afraid I don't understand the comment, "but it is going to pull off the wall too much to align with the straight piece that is 3" off of the wall measured from the inside track".
Big Boys were designed for heavy freight and likely never coupled up to a passenger train. But I tell myself that they may have occasionally pulled passenger trains occasionally during the war, what with the shortages of equipment, when I do it with mine.
Sorry Bob, it's an outside corner 45 degree corner. It then travels 5 feet, then crankes around the other 45 degree uhtil it's parallel with my first line of track I layed. Then it goes for 2 feet and passes through a tunnel that centers 5" from the wall (the center rail on the track is also at 5" there). Since I have to make sure I clear the corner when the train makes the turn, I almost have to make the first 45 degree turn just past the wall, which can be done with a 027 corner and still line up with the tunnel, but since the big curve of an o54 or 072 is large, it looks like I would need to pull the track much further off of the wall when it enters the tunnel. Outside corners aren't nice.
I get it now. Look at it this way: Keep the non-diagonal tracks, that is, the track through the tunnel and the track past the diagonal corner wall along the wall that is at right angles to the tunnel track, parallel to the walls at whatever distance you need from the walls. Start 45-degree curves right at the 45-degree corners, with the track across the 5-foot diagonal wall spaced out from that wall as much as the curves dictate. Five feet of diagonal wall corresponds to about 3 1/2 feet in the directions of the other walls; so you should be able to use any curvature you want, including O72. The gentler the curves, the farther the diagonal track will be from the diagonal wall; but the non-diagonal straight tracks will be as close to the walls as you need them to be.
That's the same Big Boy that I run on O27. I had to make a few minor modifications, mostly to the tender.
I see what you are saying. I guess I'll just have to pull the track off of the diagonal wall then, to get my clearance and line of that 2' tunnel entrance. It might require that I hang the diagonal from the ceiling instead of the wall, as it might be a decent distance, but at least I can use bigger corners if need be. I'll probably just use the 2 052 curves, as I don't need 072, and 027 might be too tight, although it sounds like you are running that long Big Boy through an 027. What modifications did you have to do to the tender? Was it just not passing through the 027 section of your spiral corner? Any pictures of that train on your shelf?
By the way, I picked up more wood from mounts and the corner shelf today. That means I need to figure out what I want to do for my corners pretty quickly.
Another way to support the corner would be to put ledgers on the non-diagonal walls, even though you're not using them generally, and long enough to tie into two but better three studs, and then extend them out to support the corner track, maybe with a diagonal piece joining the cantilevered ledgers to run under the diagonal track or nearly so.
I don't run the Big Boy on the overhead track, although I designed the track to be able to hold its weight. My track centerline is only 1 7/8 inches from the wall; so even with the spirals the Big Boy can't quite get around the corners. On the main layout, the Big Boy takes full O27 curves, not just spirals.
The only modification to the locomotive itself was to countersink a screw whose protruding head kept the link between the leading truck and the front-engine frame from swinging as far to the side as it needed to go. On the tender, I swapped axles to put the flanged wheels closer inboard: blind, flanged, blind, flanged, blind. I cut off the bottom steps to clear the O27 switch machines. And I replaced the tether by a longer one that MTH sells.
I would emagine the flanged wheelbase would be rather long before you modification on the tender. My MTH 2-8-0 blind wheels are what hang over too much on the 027 corners. It seems to work fine, but I don't trust it when it's overhead. You get a different perspecive when you can see under the train and watch the blind wheels move over the outside rail! Making that corner at least a 42" should help that. o52 would be even better. And I don't think I spiral is going to fix the issue as just about all 8 wheels fit on one piece of 027 curve now, and that's the part I don't like.
Now to actually find someone who has track other than 027 curves in stock in Columbus, OH. I can't seem to find any. Where are people finding their track besides the internet?
Well I got lucky and found some 052 curves right here near my work. Robby's Hobbies has a ton of them. I only purchased 4 pieces to see what if I liked the corner or not. It makes a big circle! Anyhow, I placed it on top of my fixed 027 corner for comparison. It's much further from the wall, but also much more gradual, and the train navigates much more naturally. I still have to support it, but it runs great. The following pictures compares the 027, 042, and 054. I also tried the spiral 054-027-054, and it's great until it hits the 027 piece, then I think it puts too much bind on my 2-8-0. I have a picture of the engine, and you can see the wheels are almost popping out of the track. There is also a picture showing how much car leans over the inside rail. Lastly, you can see the whole train navigating through the 054, which is exactly how I wanted it to look. I might make a shelf, but it's do deep that you wouldn't see anything. I will most likely just support it from the ceiling.
The 054 will work on my diagonal wall, but it won't fit in the sump pump closet, so I am going to have to stick with the 042 in there, and one more location that is only 50" wide (a hallway).
Just wanted to give you an update. Not much has been going on, but tonight was a good one. That hacksaw worked well!
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804148342085/3
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804148342133/0
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804148360712/1
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804148327687/2
I worked on the sump pump curve a little today. I built two of the three mounts to hold my plywood board, which hopefully I will get done tomorrow. I ordered the rest of my 042 curves from my loop, and picked up some 052 curves and long straights today as well.
There are some pictures of the Buckeye train on the rails as well. It's lost some luster after yesterday, but hey, 2nd place is still pretty good.
Also, I think I might have a solution to my shelf/track being too high to do any scenery on. I could use trusses to "hold" the track above a shelf that is mounted lower on the wall than the 2 walls I have now (making the track still level). If I can even lower it 5 inches, that would probably be low enough to work. I think I will try it on the corner that I just worked on using a corner shelf close to the height of the bottom of the sophet. Anyone have plans on building trusses?
Thanks for looking! It's not Franks, but I gotta learn sometime.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804151551781/7
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804151535986/4
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804151526708/5
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804151551769/6
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804151542628/0
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804151542617/1
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804151561709/2
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804151561692/3
I started ripping down the birch ply for the 18ft long shelf today. I have decided on a 7.25" deep shelf, and it will be 7.5" from the ceiling. I'll try to post some pictures after I get some of it up.
Wes..
Those pics are great..I'm adding more on my shelf layout here in a bit..
I'm to the point of tackling the wall openings. Did you just use a drywall saw for yours? And who made your portals? I just got a pair of Lionel portals at the local hobby shop..don't know if I really like them..yours look a lot better I think..
Did you do the smoke etching on the portals? Or did it come like that?
Those are MTH portals. You can get them in single or double widths, and the smoke stain is comes on them. They were $15 each, I believe. I just used a drywall saw, like you said.
I'll take some pictures of your track if you have them!
They are posted under "The start of the layout" topic..search Yallaen and you'll find them
check your mail. I sent a few pics of my layout as you requested. Looks like you're doing great on your layout so far.
My layout is getting better. I realized that I was over analyzing everything because I wanted to do it right the first time, but then I realized that there are a bunch of ways to do it. I was trying to engineer this great line based on restrictions of the room (Low ceilings but a track that was high on the wall to get over the door, wide sweeping curves, shelf widths, and mounting options). I just decided to keep building and don't get hung up on the specifics. They will work themselves out themselves. The track is so close to the ceiling that I really can't do any scenery because it couldn't be seen, so I'm just going to finish hanging the track, and then work on a real layout to satisfy the modeling needs.
I did install my dad's (he's 60 now) childhood Marx metal bridge last night. It added just what was needed at the section of track between the 54" curve and the sump pump closet. I was forced to build that straight section off of the wall because of the tunnel (and a structural stud in the closet). I also started installing my next 54" curve on the diagonal wall. I was able to keep the diagonal straight (just after the 54" 45 curve) almost as close to the wall as the long strait. Now I just need to build more mounts. That has been the downfall of not just putting up a shelf. Those mounts take a long time to make in comparison to ripping down a shelf and hanging it, but I like the visability that I get from below.
The rest of my track for the hidden section should be in today, so I will have all the track I need to finish.
Thanks for the pictures,
I just found this link. I have been doing the same thing in a room. I used brackets and shelf board and was trying to figure a better curve than 027. I have one odd piece of Lionel and one odd piece of K-Line track (both purchased in a lot of stuff on the last day of a hobby store going out of business) that I don't know what the radius/diameter is. Any place that shows various track piece dimensions?
Mine won't be working for another week or two probably, I'm still working on it
Been wanting to enjoy my Trains I had when I was a kid, and my son will like to see them run I know.
I'll try and get some pictures when I'm a little closer.
You can tell if you can figure out how many pieces make up a corner. 2 pieces is probably an 027, 3 pieces is probably a 042, and 4 pieces is at leat an 054, but could be bigger. 027 has brown ties, and high rail has black ties. The black rail goes bigger in diameter than the 027 (027 comes in 027 to 054). Also, K line and 027 match up height wise, and high rail will require a shim under the 027 track. K line has more than 3 ties on each piece (maybe 5 ties). If that doesn't work, take a piece to a hobby shop that is open, and compare what you have to what they have labeled for you.
The most reliable way to tell O27-profile track from O31 is the length of the ties, which are 2 inches and 2 1/4 inches, respectively.
For O27-profile track, the chord length, that is, the distance as the crow flies from one end to the other of the center rail is in inches
O27 9.567 (anyone, 8 per circle)
O34 12.055 (Marx, 8 per circle)
O42 10.482 (K-Line, 12 per circle)
O54 10.291 (K-Line, 16 per circle)
O72 13.754 (K-Line, 16 per circle)
For O31-profile O31 track the chord length is 10.824 inches.
yer really moving along wes. I noticed in your photo album you have a curve coming off a switch that goes out and then comes back in to get the tracks close together. A fellow showed me a trick using an o72 switch, where, instead of using a 72" curve coming off it, use one half of an o31 curve. The angle is the same, and the tracks are close together.
Keep carving away at it.
That design was scrapped because I didn't use a shelf there.
I did just pick up my MTH water tower, and a girder bidge. After seeing that tower, I think I am going to go back to running the train down that 19' long staight with some type of elavation on a shelf, instead of just the wood mounts. That is so I can put a shelf 15" from the ceiling, and use my water tower, plus more. I'm thinking I can use a 12" shelf. The track will be on the back of that shelf. I am either going to use store purchased trusses, or build up a hillside and place the train on top of it. I am estimating the track to be around 7" higher than the shelf height. Any ideas on trusses that long, or hints on building a steep hillside. If I use trusses, then there is much more room to model. That will be a learning experience.
Here's two pics of mine, Train is on track, but that's about all I have.
I also need to clean the track and cars.
I'm still working on a bridge to span the double doors into the room, just letting the paint dry.
I'm trying to find a dealer (other than ebay, but if I must) that has K-line in stock. I'd like to pick a couple of straights as they are a different length than Lionel, and some of the O71 curves.
Thanks for posting the lengths of the track. I have one piece of Lionel 042 and think I have one piece of K-line 054 (but it's about 10.5 measuring staight between the ends, not including pins). It is from the 1980's, I determined it to be O54 by hooking it to an O27 and it appears it would make a complete curve if I had another piece.
Anyway, I'm getting excited now. Hope to buy track next Friday (not tomorrow unfortunately) when I can go to a local train store.
I tried to use Lionel 35" long straights whenever possible, but I did cut down some of the pieces with a hacksaw at the corners. So far, everything runs smoothly. I sometimes wish I had used a shelf, I would be done by now.
I put up the MTH girder bridge tonight. I also designed the mount for the water tower. I hope to find some nice stuff at the train show this weekend to add to it.
Hey guys,
I was browsing this thread and figured I'd throw my own personal wall mount design out there (I have yet to build it). It's based on a "Quaker Shelf" design I found on the internet. The pics are rather large, but that is because they contain a lot of build detail. This was all done in auto-cad and includes the layout, build plan, and TMCC wiring. Some of the build details are specific to me because the room has some unique obstacles to overcome. Let me know what you think...
SB... to the boards!
Nice plan! Those corners are absolutely incredible! Nice work!What will the shelf look like face on? Looked to be trestle like from the first pic, but wanted to make sure.Again, AWESOME work and Brent
lionroar88 wrote:SB...What will the shelf look like face on? Looked to be trestle like from the first pic, but wanted to make sure.
SB...What will the shelf look like face on? Looked to be trestle like from the first pic, but wanted to make sure.
Here is a quick rendering to show you what the shlef will look like in 3D. ;)
Those look good. The modular shelf part is nice as you can just make one, attach it, and work your way across the wall. Are you going to be doubling up on the supports when you butt two shelves together?
It looks like one of your hurdles is a ceiling sophet. I have one as well, but it's only 6' 5" tall as is, so I can't go below like you did. It's also nice not to have a ceiling height or door limitation. So where are you getting your track that cheap? Where do you get a cool switcher like that?
The switches are Ross Custom O54-O31. They are the source of some confusion though, and I won't know exact side-by-side track spacing until I can measure the angle difference from one turnout to the next. I'm shooting for 3.5" between center rails on the parallel tracks without making any mods to the switches.
The odd part of my room is that closet looking space (TV niche). Also, the wall makes a sudden jog down one of the longer straights, so I came up with the "block" extension system to keep everything straight.
The shelfs are not really modular. There is 8 of them, and they will have to be custom lengths to make it across the room. There are two full length wall mounted poplar boards on each wall. The MDF corners will then sit on tops of those boards with one angle support on each end. Then there will be 8 MDF straight shelves that mount on top of the wall mounted boards with more angle supports. I don't think I'll be able to take them with me if/when we move out of that house. The good news is that the track & electronics cost the most, and the rest I can duplicate easily in another room. We'll see though since I have yet to start anything... ;)
To answere your question, No I won't double up angle supports where the shelves butt together. Since the MDF shelf is secured to the wall mounted poplar board over the entire length with drywall screws, the supports really only hold a compression load. With this design I can make the spacing between the angle supports even the whole length.
Please keep in mind that the 3D rendering is deciving as I just made it as a quick visual example. The actual floor plan shows exactly where each angle support & shelf will be...
PS: I think my track prices came from http://www.grandcentralltd.com but that was almost a year ago. They could be different now.
Hmm,
It looks like if I use Ross switches, I could mount two rails on my 7.5" boards and have a section (or two) where I can switch the trains, using a 3.5" center c-to-c layout. Using a 11-degree wye, I could keep the rest of my rail centered on the board.
Maybe I should go with Gargraves track as it's directly compatible with the Ross Switches. Since it's up on a board, doesn't matter what I use as far as aesthestics is concerned.
However, I have to buy so much straight track anyway, it might be better to just convert to Gargraves if I want to do this.
This way if I had two turnout sections, in theory I could have four trains, two on the turnout, and two on the track and set it up where they would wait if one got to close to another. Of course, you'd have to go manual to exchange trains I think.
Ok, opinions on going to Gargraves, seem like flex track past the wye's would make life a lot easier.
O27 track is perfectly compatible with Ross switches with the simply addition of Ross adapter pins. If your track is up on a shelf, there is no sense spending 10 times as much money for wooden tie tracks for the entire layout...
SB,
Maybe the best answer is that I just buy the Gargraves track for between the wye's where it would be nice to have the flex track to set the spacing and gentle transitions, but for the rest of the layout use the O27 I already have.
I'm gonna price it out this weekend and see what the difference was, I didn't think it was 10X, if it is, I'm not going gargraves. I thought it was less than 2X more.
Seems like adapter pins could be a headache, but if they work well, then I have no problem with it. With anything else I have ever done, the word "adapter" hasn't always lead to good endings.
Jason
I'm trying to map something out on a shelf, and need to ask if you guys know the track widths.
The outside edge to outside edge of two parallel tracks that use a:
1) Lionel 042 (027) switch with a single piece of 042 curve after the switch, bringing it all parallel. All Lionel 027 track.
2) MTH 072 switch with a single 72" curve after the switch, bringing it all parallel. All MTH track.
3) MTH 042 switch with a single 42" curve after the switch, bringing it all parallel. All MTH track.
I don't have any MTH track. But Lionel O42 is identical in curvature to K-Line O42, that is, it has a radius of 20.25 inches and 30 degrees per section. So the spacing on centers is 5.426 inches = 5 7/16 inches. The spacing to the outsides of the ties is of course about 2 inches more; but you'll need more than that to clear the wall.
K-Line O72 has a radius of 35.25 inches and 22.5 degrees per section, which gives 5.366 inches = 5 3/8 inches on centers, if that's any help.
You can figure the radius of any curved track if you know how great an angle in direction is turned by one section. Measure the chord, that is, the distance directly from the center of one end of the center rail to the center of the other end. Then
r = chord / (2 * sin(angle/2))
For track with 45-degree sections, r = chord * 1.307
For track with 30-degree sections, r = chord * 1.932
For track with 22.5-degree sections, r = chord * 2.563
Once you know the radius, you can calculate the distance between the parallel tracks as
d = (1 - cos(angle)) * 2 * r
For track with 45-degree sections, d = r * .5858
For track with 30-degree sections, d = r * .2679
For track with 22.5-degree sections, d = r * .1522
lionelsoni wrote: I don't have any MTH track. But Lionel O42 is identical in curvature to K-Line O42, that is, it has a radius of 20.25 inches and 30 degrees per section. So the spacing on centers is 5.426 inches = 5 7/16 inches. The spacing to the outsides of the ties is of course about 2 inches more; but you'll need more than that to clear the wall.K-Line O72 has a radius of 35.25 inches and 22.5 degrees per section, which gives 5.366 inches = 5 3/8 inches on centers, if that's any help.You can figure the radius of any curved track if you know how great an angle in direction is turned by one section. Measure the chord, that is, the distance directly from the center of one end of the center rail to the center of the other end. Thenr = chord / (2 * sin(angle/2))For track with 45-degree sections, r = chord * 1.307For track with 30-degree sections, r = chord * 1.932For track with 22.5-degree sections, r = chord * 2.563Once you know the radius, you can calculate the distance between the parallel tracks asd = (1 - cos(angle)) * 2 * rFor track with 45-degree sections, d = r * .5858For track with 30-degree sections, d = r * .2679For track with 22.5-degree sections, d = r * .1522
I can use this, and just add more estimated width for roadbed with the MTH track. Thanks!
I made a little more progress today. I cut the tunnel to go into the other room, and am getting the 054 curve close to where I want it. I tried a manual pass with my biggest train, and it passes with close to .5" clearance. I might want to get a hold of a 42" minimum car to make sure it will pass as that it my minimum curve elsewhere in the layout. I'm missing a ton of mounts, and this is just a rough-up. It answered a lot of questions for me though.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804199865856/0
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/weswhitmore/photo/294928804207192109/0
I made a little corner platform to hold the left hand 042 turnout. The two tracks will continue to the left for probably around 14 feet, and then another shelf with a turnout to one track again. I needed a place to store extra trains without physically taking them down, and this seemed logical. This has been a slow process for many reasons, but now I have a complete vision, so it should be smooth sailing from here. Not fast, but smooth...
I made 6 mounts to continue the track to the left. My next step is mounting them.
Good progress!
underworld
I have installed my first switch, and 6 double track mounts. This is the first time I have used a Lionel switch. I see what you guys are saying. You have to crank the track voltage up pretty high to get the switch to snap from one track to the other, but at the same time, the train is moving way too fast! I can see some sort of contrant track voltage control system coming my way in the future...
I only need to make about 14 nore mounts and a shelf for the other 042 switch, and then I can work on soldering on the hotpoints around the track.
I use a Lionel trolley as my test vehicle because it is light enough to make the turns around my unsupported track corners. I'm still working on those. Since this trolley doesn't have a speed control, it can really build up some speed on the straights. I'm hoping that more hotpoints fixes some of these problems. If not, I'll just install speed controllers into everything I own.
I also have to enter into the 042 switch at a pretty good clip, or the trolley will not make it though. If I tap it after it stops, it takes off again. It sounds like a power issue to me. I'll wait until later and fix it after my power distrubution have been deployed.
Wes-
I am reading your thread on this project nearly a year later. Your pictures have been moved to another website so I cannot see what you were doing. Are you done with the project? Can you share some pictures. I am just trying to do a simple shelf around the top of my boys' room for an o gauge single track to run Thomas the Train. Nothing fancy but I am trying to get ideas for support, shelf material etc.
Any advice?
Thanks-
Anne
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=0AcMXDhq0bNmL4w&emid=sharshar&linkid=link5
Here is a link to a bunch of pictures during that project. I never completed it, but need to get back in and finish. I had a bunch of questions that I needed to answer, then moved on to other things. I am more than halfway around the room now, and just need to finish up above the current layout, which is moving into the next room. When that gets moved, it should go pretty fast.
Try this contruction: Home Depot heavy duty shelf brackets for closet kits....
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This way you can adjust the height, or add a second hidden level!
Those are awesome for a lower layout, but I don't know about around the border of a room...I guess you could cut the verticals to be pretty short and it would work well.
Wes Whitmore wrote: http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=0AcMXDhq0bNmL4w&emid=sharshar&linkid=link5 Here is a link to a bunch of pictures during that project. I never completed it, but need to get back in and finish. I had a bunch of questions that I needed to answer, then moved on to other things. I am more than halfway around the room now, and just need to finish up above the current layout, which is moving into the next room. When that gets moved, it should go pretty fast.Wes
Wes - these photos are excellent. How's the engine noise running across the brackets?
How about derailments ... hopefully none, but any close calls?
It's not super quiet. I think that soffet that the track is connected to simply aplifies the track vibration, since its just a hollow box.
No derailments yet.
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