CW-80 Tranformer - Help

[pgtr]

If anyone actually follows my posts, however, he will notice that I have NEVER advocated that someone looking for a transformer go out and buy a CW-80.

I don't recall anyone saying you did in fact advocate this. So nothing to get defensive about.

Rather, I have addressed my remarks to folks who already have one and have questions or problems.

Well let's be fair here: There also seems to be a fair # of posts on your part in past threads as well as this one directed at those who 'vent or have written this transformer off and voice their opinions or actions to that affect.

The fact is that many folks have  CW-80's and have not had any problems with them -- myself included.

Here's another 'fact' for ya: Many folks have had CW-80s and they have failed -- myself included.

But making statements with words like "many" and dressing them up as a "fact" do no service whatsoever without at least a statistical basis as to sample size etc. I don't have any statistics on the failure rate of CWs and dollars to donuts says you don't either. But as a reader of this and other forums - I'll offer not a fact but a common sensical anecdotal observation (note I'm not calling this a 'fact') this unit has an MTBF rate far above what any toy transformer should have.

I question whether those folks who are constantly comparing the CW-80 to a boat anchor or a doorstop are doing any service to the people who already have one. One member reported that he took one outside and literally used it for target practice! Very mature, don't you think? Surely such posts provide more heat than light, and the level of civility of the forum declines. So, c'mon now, play nice! In my opinion, that kind of behavior tends to "turn off" people who are new to the forum and/or new to toy trains. Is that our goal?

Well it's called venting among other things and it is a common reaction to owning a lemon for the lack of a better term. It is also good, I think, to get corroboration from others who own the same lemon and have the same experience. As I'm sure you know - if it wasn't for people 'networking' and venting over failing products we wouldn't have lemon laws on the books or mandated warranties on electronics/toys and general laws regarding merchantability.

Don't you believe it's VERY important for others to share their experiences and opinions as this helps the market place correct or control inferior products? Further this is a product that plugs into household electrical outlet and is marketed to children. Wouldn't this alone raises the bar a bit? Surely you wouldn't assuage anyone from sharing their experiences and opinions on this product would you? Now matter how much they may differ from your own right?

Indeed with forums like this - I think we don't have to wait the extended periods of time of yore for marketplace forces to eventually force inferior products to be improved or pulled from the shelves. Does anyone believe it's coincidental that Lionel is so generous regarding servicing this particular item?

Want to learn more? This is a UL listed product - UL can be contacted at: https://www.ul.com/auth/regcon.cfm. It is also a product that falls under the jurisdiction of the CPSC. They can be contacted at http://www.cpsc.gov/talk.html

[pgtr]

Lionel has made good effort in fixing the problems with the CW-80 and is making good on their commitment to replace any defective units.  I don't know of many manufacturers that would do this, especially seeing that they have yet to emerge from bankruptcy.

I'm curious - What are some examples of companies who have a 'branded' name that market consumer products to the general public who have sought bankruptcy protection and NOT honored their warranty?

In fact I'm not sure they can blow off a warranty even if they wanted to. Law requires them to offer a minimum 90 day warranty in the first place.

Gee they seem to have the money and energy to crank out new products and catalogs and what not.

Personally I think has more to say about the level of craftsmanship in the Pacific Rim ...

If their name goes on it. That's where the buck stops. Period.

[lionelsoni]

Jim, I think we agree on the goal of getting the beginner's set working.  Where we disagree is on the best way to do that.  Eric and I are of the opinion that the most expedient way is to abandon the CW-80 and to go directly to a transformer of proven reliability.  That will not only get the train moving but also keep it moving, without having to keep rolling the CW-80 dice if and when each replacement fails also, as they have been reported to do.

I was trying to point out that there are two aspects to the CW-80's problems, the concept and the execution.  The phase-control output waveform, the current leakage at the off position, and especially the arrangement of the outputs, with the common on the A and B terminals, are to my mind clearly botched and would be reasons to avoid the transformer even if it functioned reliably in its own eccentric way, which it often does not, as we have seen from the testimony here on the forum.

As for keeping the beginner feeling good about his purchase of a lemon, I think that it is already too late for that to be possible.

[Anonymous]

Lionel has made good effort in fixing the problems with the CW-80 and is making good on their commitment to replace any defective units.  I don't know of many manufacturers that would do this, especially seeing that they have yet to emerge from bankruptcy.

I'm curious - What are some examples of companies who have a 'branded' name that market consumer products to the general public who have sought bankruptcy protection and NOT honored their warranty?

In fact I'm not sure they can blow off a warranty even if they wanted to. Law requires them to offer a minimum 90 day warranty in the first place.

Gee they seem to have the money and energy to crank out new products and catalogs and what not.

I'm no expert on bankruptcy law, but I know creditors are paid first when it comes to reconciling debt.  I don't know where warranty claims fall, but my guess is it is below creditors and above stock holders.  I think they may actually have to create an account to pay warranty related claims, but I'm not certain.  This may be why they are simply providing replacement transformers.

Personally I think has more to say about the level of craftsmanship in the Pacific Rim ...

If their name goes on it. That's where the buck stops. Period.

Not discounting this.  The point is MTH, Lionel, and other - NOT TOY TRAIN related companies have manufacturing facilities in the Pacific Rim and many of them have shotting production.  Why do you think Sony, Pioneer, Denon, Yamaha, Mitsubishi, et al have production plants in the US?  Some of it has to do with shipping, but a lot has to do with the attention to detail that US workers put into their work.

At least you can open a Lionel Transformer, I know the CW-80 has tamper-proof screws (you can buy an extractor off the net if you know where to look), ever try opeing an MTH Transformer?  You can't.  You have to send it back to MTH to have it serviced, and their prices aren't cheap (I was at my LHS when a customer brought his MTH transformers - he had 6 six of them - to be serviced.  The owner told him he couldn't repair them, but he could send them back to MTH, their minimum service fee was $45.00, FOR A $60.00 transformer.  The customer ended up buying one of their 4000 transformers).  Yeah that is service for you!

[Anonymous]

My feeling is that Lionel produced a nice looking transformer that has more internal problems associated with it that just about any other toy train transformer produced to date.

Rather than go back to the drawing board and really correct all the operational problems (and they are many and varied, depending on what you run) followed by a recall and replacement, Lionel took the easy way out (for them) and simply bet that enough of these things would keep working for long enough to make it worthwhile to offer a one-for-one replacement for any that are found to be defective within the warranty period.

Obviously Lionel knows that they screwed-up big time.  I don't imagine they would now be equipping their starter sets with a "budget" version of the CW-80 (I can't recall the name of the stripped-down version) if they didn't know full well that the CW80 itself was causing a whole lot of problems and controversy.

Fold those orange and blue banners, and recognize that Lionel made a big boo-boo, and that they have done their best to skirt around the issue to their favor and not in the consumer's best interests.

My recommendation:  If you want a new and relatively small toy train transformer that you can depend on today as well as years from now, dump the CW (or just use it to power accessories) and get yourself an MRC, an MTH Z750 or Z1000, or one of the new transformers being offered by Williams.  Why take a chance with something that may or may not serve you well over time? 

[Anonymous]

Allan Miller,

PowerMax

[Anonymous]

My feeling is that Lionel produced a nice looking transformer that has more internal problems associated with it that just about any other toy train transformer produced to date.

Rather than go back to the drawing board and really correct all the operational problems (and they are many and varied, depending on what you run) followed by a recall and replacement, Lionel took the easy way out (for them) and simply bet that enough of these things would keep working for long enough to make it worthwhile to offer a one-for-one replacement for any that are found to be defective within the warranty period.

Obviously Lionel knows that they screwed-up big time.  I don't imagine they would now be equipping their starter sets with a "budget" version of the CW-80 (I can't recall the name of the stripped-down version) if they didn't know full well that the CW80 itself was causing a whole lot of problems and controversy.

Fold those orange and blue banners, and recognize that Lionel made a big boo-boo, and that they have done their best to skirt around the issue to their favor and not in the consumer's best interests.

My recommendation:  If you want a new and relatively small toy train transformer that you can depend on today as well as years from now, dump the CW (or just use it to power accessories) and get yourself an MRC, an MTH Z750 or Z1000, or one of the new transformers being offered by Williams.  Why take a chance with something that may or may not serve you well over time? 

I don't think anyone denies, or has denied, that Lionel screwed up the first version of the CW-80.  If they haven't fixed the problems with the CW-80, then why would they be putting it in their Premium Sets?  That doesn't make sense to me.

Like I have said, I have one and it works flawlessly.  Not discounting that others are having, or have had, problems with theirs in the past, the point is there is a warranty on the transformer and if you are having problems Lionel will replace it with a new one.

MTH's transformers are not flawless either... reference my post above where a fellow railroader brought 6 of his MTH transformers in for service and ended up purchasing a larger model because it wasn't work spending the money to have the small transformers fixed.

I am to the point where I don't want to buy sets with transformers because I just don't use them.  I know you can sell them on EBay or at shows or what not, but most people going to shows don't need a small transformer, and most people buying on EBay don't need one either... so to me they are a waste of money to put in sets... Lionel should make the sets available with and with out a transformer, knock the price of a CW-80 off the sets and call it a day.  Especially since some of the items in the set aren't being offered seperately... Guess it is just back to buying the engines and rolling stock seperately... but some of these new sets are danged nice!

Personally I have never understood the mantra that every product be free from defects.  It is the nature of the manufacturing process that you are going to have some problems here and there.... the CW-80 was a design flaw that resulted in problems with all early production models.  I bought one of the new 4-4-0 NPCL General engines and the first one the arrived didn't smoke and had a loose wirenut floating around in the cab, the replacement works great!  It happens... you just have to deal with the problem and get it resolved.

[Anonymous]

pgtr,

As I recall, you made your initial CW-80 post on this forum on 9/21/06 -- not three months ago. In it you all but admitted that you set up your new CW-80 for a test run without reading the manual. Evidently you didn't know that the CW-80 is unlike any other transformer Lionel has ever built, or that the "ramp-up" throttle (to cite one "defect" that you discovered) is a feature of a perfectly performing CW-80. Forum member Joe Hohmann promptly and kindly cleared that up for you.

At that point you should have been left with only a single problem -- as I understand your posts -- an erratic change-of-direction response. You would have soon received the routine advice to place a lamp or two in the circuit and the problem would have been solved. (In my experience the Lionel electronic e-units function flawlessly after this workaround. Who can point to an electro-mechanical e-unit that works as well?)

Then a lot of folks, including the highly-respected Bob Nelson (lionelsoni) posted their views. Bob stated that he had never even seen a CW-80, although he had read a lot of posts about it. Most of these have been negative, as we all know. I wish he'd get one and try it for a while. He might even like the cute little gadget despite all the bad-mouthing. But I don't fault him for suggesting other transformers to prospective new purchasers, or even to owners who have made good-faith efforts to resolve their problems and have justifiably given up.

Later in your September thread, I foolishly jumped in and tried to be of help.  Among other things, you were advised to contact Lionel. In the last post in that thread, I asked whether you had done so,  and what you had learned. As far as I can tell, you never did me the courtesy of a reply.

So ptgr, I ask again: what did Lionel do or advise in your case?

....................................

This thread began with a simple request for assistance by a new owner. I feel certain that he did not intend to jump into the middle of a war. I think we need to welcome such people to the forum and not subject them to our ongoing quarrels -- at least not until after we have resolved their problem -- if at all possible. In fact (as some of us predicted) the local dealer replaced the transformer within in minutes, and I understand that it works. He also provided a new locomotive.

Now mrw has asked another reasonable  question about the new locomotive, because it was not an exact replacement. Have you tried  to answer this second question?

............................

I have certainly made mistakes on these forums. Possibly the worst one was offering an opinion to a newbie who had just joined another forum --  which shall remain nameless. (At least I didn't  poor-mouth his new train.) Unfortunately however, my advice conflicted with that provided by the self-annointed king of that forum, and he lambasted me for it. There was no rational discussion, and indeed I was invited to attempt some interesting but physically impossible actions upon myself.

The point is, in that case, the new guy immediately took his dolls and dishes and went home -- apparently never to return. Since then I have tried to be careful not to discourage folks who are new to the hobby. This bickering does exactly that. Or so it seems to me.

 

 

[lionelsoni]

It's true that I have never seen a CW-80.  But the three things I cited above that I dislike about the concept (waveform, leakage, and terminal assignment) are undisputed "features" of the transformer.  Until I am corrected in my understanding of these, I will continue to dislike them.  I doubt that I would find them to be myths if I were to spend the money to buy one.  (I also dislike the ramping concept; but that is a personal preference; so I don't count it a flaw in the design.)

The other part is the reliability.  Some say that theirs work perfectly.  Others have had them replaced.  Even if I had a perfectly working CW-80, I can only judge by what I read here that many others were not so lucky.

We do not need to have a "party line" here on the forum.  We can disagree in a civil way among ourselves about something like this.  But I think it is unreasonable that sincerely held opinions and advice that George disagrees with should be suppressed in order to present a united front to beginners seeking advice.

[Anonymous]

I hope this person's problems with the CW-80 are fixed and he can go on enjoying his trains.

I do have a question though, for people informed about the thought processes of Lionel: It seems that this particular transformer is, well, plagued with problems. Why does Lionel keep making it, that being the case? Or, perhaps more baseline, why do the problems keep recurring?

It's ironic - my inner line transformer is a pw Trainmaster Type R that must be, what - 60 years old? A little maintenance to replace some posts that had pulled away and the thing runs like a top. It is a funny thing that the CW transformers of today seem to experience more problems than the PW warrior like the Type R. Perhaps it is more sophisticated and thus prone to problems.

 

[jimhaleyscomet]

.........

The other part is the reliability.  Some say that theirs work perfectly.  Others have had them replaced.  Even if I had a perfectly working CW-80, I can only judge by what I read here that many others were not so lucky.

We do not need to have a "party line" here on the forum.  We can disagree in a civil way among ourselves about something like this.  But I think it is unreasonable that sincerely held opinions and advice that George disagrees with should be suppressed in order to present a united front to beginners seeking advice.

 While I disagree that the CW-80 needs to be replaced as soon as you get your first set I definately agree we can disagree in a civil way!  I just dislike seeing peaple saying "use it as a boat anchor" or such when someone can easily get a replacement from Lionel or the dealer.  

 

Jim H 

[Anonymous]

lionelsoni,

Bob, I'll give you the last word.

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[pgtr]

As I recall, you made your initial CW-80 post on this forum on 9/21/06 -- [SNIP the rehash of an old thread...]
So ptgr, I ask again: what did Lionel do or advise in your case?

What does that have to do with the price of rice in China? Point is I'm adding both my CWs into the growing database of failed CWs that have been posted to the internet.

....................................

This thread began with a simple

Ah such innocence. But of course! ALL the CW threads start off as innocent and simple including the future ones yet be posted until some future year when the CW is corrected and replaced and it eventually fades to being a bad memory.

...request for assistance by a new owner. I feel certain that he did not intend to jump into the middle of a war.

I fail to understand this "war" characterization. Why bring up a word like this that has such a negative connotation? Why not focus on the merits of the CW rather than such aggressive verbosity? Should I see something constructive in words like "war"? How does introducing words like this to your CW discussions serve to welcome others to the hobby and forum in a positive light?

I think we need to welcome such people to the forum and not subject them to our ongoing quarrels -- at least not until after we have resolved their problem -- if at all possible.

First War? Now Quarrel? With whom? Over what? Again why such a defensive stance? 

Your also insinuating we (I?) are not welcoming some people to the forum - again show us reference of this. Please be specific as I for one seem to be  missing your wars, quarrels and unwelcome nature of treatment towards others on the forum.

In fact (as some of us predicted) the local dealer replaced the transformer within in minutes, and I understand that it works.

OK. Great. So why can't others share their fact based experiences and honest opinions regarding CWs though they may differ from yours?

Have you tried  to answer this second question?

Huh?

This bickering does exactly that. Or so it seems to me.

Wars? Quarrels? Now 'Bickering'? Whassup? ;-) It's just a toy transformer with an abnormally high failure rate and people call it as they see it. It's kinda like being part of a special club - the "I GOT A JUNKY CW CLUB".

IMHO one of THE most important services internet forums of all kinds offer their patrons is the opportunity to share experiences and opinions. And yes (sit down for this...) that means the FULL gamut of opinions! Most of us are adults and we can kinda sort figure the difference between it all and thick enough skins not to get bent. I see people share negative opinions here on all kinds of things ranging from track systems, rivet counts, digital control systems, sound boards, UP this and that to even strategic corporate toy train marketing plans. Show me a forum that only allows polyanna positive commentary on even the junkiest of products and I'll show you one dead forum.

 

 

 

[pgtr]

One member reported that he took one outside and literally used it for target practice! Very mature, don't you think?

Oh please let there be a video link posted somewhere!

[Anonymous]

Have you tried  to answer this second question?

Huh?

pgtr,
He asked about the replacement engine he received on his second visit to the LHS when the new CW did not control the engine properly.  He received the PRR 4-4-2 (I think) that only has one switch and not two under the chassis.

To follow up on some of this flambastic posting... people need to control their anger or angst when it comes to posting about products.  You may love MTH or Lionel or Williams or K-Line (now defunct) or whatever, it doesn't matter.  The point is there is no need to trash (and I'm not saying you do this) other company's products just because you have a veracious passion for your chosen manufacturer.  Just like the thread where Kat? came on and was asking about a train for her 3yo son.  People were recommending everything and someone came on and posted the his LHS told him that MTH engines were superior and longer lasting than Lionel's... that stunned me because as far as I knew Lionel has been around for over 100years and MTH has yet to hit their 25th aniversary!  So Lionel has engines from the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's that are older than MTH's first loco, yet MTH produces more reliable engines?

Folks, think before you post.  If you find yourself spouting off about this manufacturer is better than this manufacturer, please rethink posting the message.  Now if you want to debate the pulling power, detailing, reliability of Lionel's S-2 and MTH's S-2, now that would be an interesting and probably educational debate.  But to post about a product that you have never even touched, let alone used, just astounds me.  You can read all you want, but if you don't have personal experience then, IMHO you should not be posting as though you have first hand knowledge.

[DennisB-1]

I don't have a dog in this fight. (uh,oh-- should I  not use the word fight?) I do not own a CW but it appears that more than a handful of people have had problems with it.  Whether it's factory or customer induced is irrelevant. The point is that the transformer can be problematic.

However, when a newbie asks for advice because it's not working, the prudent thing to do is to ascertain whether it's operator error or a genuine repair problem.  In my opinion, Wolverine's approach is correct.

Lionelsoni's suggested work around may be a solution but probably not the best idea for the neophyte. 

Tossing it into the trash as others have suggested, is about as useful as flipping someone off. It may make you feel better but it does nothing constructive.