Deputy wrote: Well said Anj! I am in the same babyboomer boat as you. All my buddies HATE the Barret-Jackson show and refuse to even watch it. What it has done to hot rodders is just pitiful. Ditto for OCC. Most of the bikes they make end up on display and never ridden. Jesse James is the only guy I know that actually rides his choppers. And he's one hardcore dood. People are gonna pay nutball prices for E-Bay stuff for all kinds of reasons...especially at this time of year. We can just sit back and wait it out. Then get an IDENTICAL item in IDENTICAL condition for what it is really worth when buyer's remorse kicks in in January and February. I wouldn't be surprised if 682 turbines in excellent condition don't start popping up all over E-Bay as well as train stores. A WISE consumer waits to get the right price on an item. What we are seeing on E-Bay is idiocy at it's highest level. For me...I'll sit back and laugh. Dep
Well said Anj! I am in the same babyboomer boat as you. All my buddies HATE the Barret-Jackson show and refuse to even watch it. What it has done to hot rodders is just pitiful. Ditto for OCC. Most of the bikes they make end up on display and never ridden. Jesse James is the only guy I know that actually rides his choppers. And he's one hardcore dood.
People are gonna pay nutball prices for E-Bay stuff for all kinds of reasons...especially at this time of year. We can just sit back and wait it out. Then get an IDENTICAL item in IDENTICAL condition for what it is really worth when buyer's remorse kicks in in January and February. I wouldn't be surprised if 682 turbines in excellent condition don't start popping up all over E-Bay as well as train stores. A WISE consumer waits to get the right price on an item. What we are seeing on E-Bay is idiocy at it's highest level. For me...I'll sit back and laugh.
Dep
Dep,
I am in agreement with you. Wait out the holidays, be patient, and don't pay more than you are truely willing to spend on an item. Warren Buffett said once that if you are not willing to pay double for something you are considering buying, then the purchase isn't worth it. His goal being to double his investment, but basically, it means to me that regardless of the asking price or market value, you have to assign what you believe the value is. That is why something is only worth what people will pay for it. It was worth it to the buyer of the 682 to 'overpay' based on my valuation, but not his/hers.
Auctions are fickle and people tend to get caught up in the frenzy of it and end up overpaying. When you see someone else wanting what you want, you want it more and will fight for it. I do not get into bidding wars. Like a lot of guys here, I like to run my trains, I don't mind some use. What I object to and avoid are people who think that just because there is a market for this stuff that they post JUNK, and then set ridiculous reserves or starting bids for their 'rare' items.
As for the car market, that's my other passion, but without money to just throw on the fire, buying or even restoring a decent car is cost prohibitive unless you can do a lot of the work yourself. I'm gonna find out the hard way just how much fixing an old car will cost me when mine goes to the shop tomorrow (I can't do the work myself)...luckily, so far I have a car that the market hasn't really discovered and prices haven't gotten out of hand yet.
Deputy wrote: palallin wrote: But you cannot put boxes aside. For $490...just WATCH ME!!!! Dep
palallin wrote: But you cannot put boxes aside.
But you cannot put boxes aside.
For $490...just WATCH ME!!!!
You aint alone neither.
Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
Virginian Railroad
tjsprague wrote: Boxes aside, it comes down to those 3 most important issues.....
Boxes aside, it comes down to those 3 most important issues.....
But you cannot put boxes aside. In this case, they represent a substantial fraction of the value of the lot.
A collector would know that; he would also know that he did not get "hosed" but got a fair deal. Anyone who thinks he got hosed knows nothing about the collector market. Whether or not the bidder would call himself a collector, he did OK in the collector market.
This engine has value that a new-all-the-bells-and-whistles model will never have to someone who appreciates postwar Lionel. It doesn't have that value for me, but post war isn't my gig. Nevertheless, I refuse to disdain anyone who does appreciate it; rather, I congratulate him on his horse trading. Those who insist on demeaning this bidder apparently do so simply to inflate their own egos, to demonstrate their "superior" judgment, but in the end simply seem silly.
tjsprague wrote: Boxes aside, it comes down to those 3 most important issues.....condition, condition, and condition. Collectors want the absolute pristine examples. And the price guides don't really cover those rarely seen examples. Guys like me who run their older trains don't mind a few nicks and scratches. The average condition stuff is going much cheaper these days. I've sold off half a dozen PW engines in the past year, some of them fairly nice, and I'm lucky to get my original purchase price. Oh well, that's the collecting game. Luckily I had a fair amount of trains I had bought from estates, or other non-collectors which did get a fair profit. Which I then used to purchase my new interest, prewar tinplate.
condition, condition, and condition.
Collectors want the absolute pristine examples. And the price guides don't really cover those rarely seen examples. Guys like me who run their older trains don't mind a few nicks and scratches.
The average condition stuff is going much cheaper these days. I've sold off half a dozen PW engines in the past year, some of them fairly nice, and I'm lucky to get my original purchase price. Oh well, that's the collecting game. Luckily I had a fair amount of trains I had bought from estates, or other non-collectors which did get a fair profit. Which I then used to purchase my new interest, prewar tinplate.
tj: No argument about condition. It's 100% true. But it's NOT JUST COLLECTORS that want mint-to-excellent condition items. I am like you...a runner (or "operator"). But I ALSO want a very nice loco. I don't mind doing minimal fixes to something, like replacing a tender shell or a small spring. And chipped paint isn't a big worry, as long as it doesn't look like it went through a rock polisher. If I have the choice between a dirt cheap 682, and one that is excellent, I'm sure gonna try for the excellent. And if I can't win it, then I MAY consider the dirt cheap one, IF it is within my abilities to restore to excellent. For sure if the excellent 682 is jumping in price like this one did, I am just gonna sit back and shake my head and .
Paul: I have to respectfully disagree. The item link you posted is probably worth what the asking price is. Heck, 1906, I doubt there are many of them left in the WORLD!!! Just guessing, of course, I plead complete ignorance to those items . But the 682 is NOWHERE NEAR the rarity level of the item you posted. Heck...I don't think the term/description "rare" even applies to this loco. They are appearing regularly on E-Bay, and many of them are in the SAME condition as the one that sold for $800. Only they are selling for 1/2 that price. I know, because I've been tracking just about all of them. It seems like the closer we get to Christmas, the nuttier (is that a word?) the prices are getting. I would say the bids on this 682 were "in the ballpark" right up to December 14th...when it was at $476. After that...they simply went insane...
plip( 1476) US $840.00 Dec-14-06 18:14:52 PST viastandard( 14) US $830.00 Dec-14-06 18:14:56 PST woodweasle( 760) US $725.25 Dec-14-06 18:14:55 PST woodweasle( 760) US $699.99 Dec-14-06 17:03:05 PST initagain( 132) US $575.00 Dec-14-06 18:14:45 PSTsandmantrains( 165) US $476.00 Dec-14-06 16:29:45 PST
http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-GERMAN-LEHMANN-ADAM-PORTER-W-BOX-WIND-UP-MINT_W0QQitemZ180060726822QQihZ008QQcategoryZ74986QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Sorry, try this.
ben10ben wrote: Dep,You're doing nothing but showing your ignorance, as you've done many times.Premium engine and premium box means lots of money. What do you not understand about that?And, what right do have to criticise what someone pays for something?
You're doing nothing but showing your ignorance, as you've done many times.
Premium engine and premium box means lots of money. What do you not understand about that?
And, what right do have to criticise what someone pays for something?
I dont see what the hub-bub is about. The piece in question is a true rarity in its condition and desirability(is that a word?). I could see that same engine bring twice that much if you had the right bunch of collectors looking at it. The skys the limit on stuff like that.
There was just an item on e-bay recently, it was original boxes to an old Ives set I believe. I think the winning bid was $3000+. Probably not another set of boxes like it anywhere.
If thats your thing, and you have the money, what the heck.
Heres a good one in comparison. Go figure
Ben:It only means "lots of money" to those who PAY lots of money for them. Again...you are assuming that everyone who buys a 682 is immediately a collector. THEY ARE NOT. All I want is a minty-to-excellent 682 at a reasonable (read Greenberg) price. It will then be RUN on my layout as often as I can. I am NOT going to store it in some airtight vault and couldn't care less if it's in a shoebox.
Something else occurs to me. More and more I think the person who bought this was NOT a collector. A collector would know enough that the price was exorbitant and would NOT pay that amount. I'm sorry, but 682 turbines in excellent-to-mint, boxes or no boxes, are NOT valued anywhere near that high. I have also been looking around on E-Bay and I see that BOXES are for sale for a LOT LESS than $490. Again....I couldn't care less what someone pays for something. That's THEIR problem, not mine.And take that dang halo off your head. I don't even want to hear that you never laughed at or criticized someone who obviously got reamed out for something.
Crucify me if you wish, but I am related to another hoby that is doing the same thing. Collectors/speculators/bidders, whatever, are stealing the hobby. I have no qualms with turning an honest buck, but I feel that this and other hobbies are being hi-jacked. The "collector" will usually hoard these things, satisfiying only himself, while those who enjoy the hobby will share it with others. There will always be exceptions, but be it car or train, e-bay, barret-jackson, et al, have just about driven the casual hobbiest out. I am part of the baby boomer gen (not happy about that, but) and I have seen those with disposible income, push the envelope of sanity. Profiteering has hurt most of us and profited few. I have no qualms about someone liqudating their wares due to age, lack of funds & interest. The "boom" will have benefited them, and it's their gain.
I have seen vehicles 10 years ago classified as junk destroyed. Now even they command rediculous prices. I've about given up on the car hobby, because, for the most part, it has been hijacked by the people that make more money than I can imagine and spend in on crap. It has happened to the motorcycle community (thanks to OCC). Cane you buy a nice Harley for cheap? Not any more!!
These hobbies should be for the hobbiest, not the specualtor. Good on them, just leave me my hobby as affordable for the hobbiest. And no, I'm not selling my 1948 S-2 for a profit. If I could get what I paid for it (without those damn boxes), I'd be satified
And I think that is what the point is!
I am the monster in your head...And I thought you'd learn by now, It seems you haven't yet.I am the venom in your skin --- Breaking Benjamin
Deputy wrote:"There's a sucker born every minute"
"There's a sucker born every minute"
So sad, yet so true.
3railguy wrote: Excuse me but when a collector places a bid, he becomes a bidder. OK, so maybe he's not a collector. The point is, someone wanted the turbine enough to pay $840. Sure he only has 14 wins and could be a shill but the bidder before him at over $700 seems legit as he has a ton of winnings.I understood your point at the beginning of the thread. However, you and a few others have done nothing but ridicule and protest people's values throughout the entire thread. OK so Greenburg says it's worth $400. If I wanted it bad enough to pay $800, I'm going to pay it despite what Greenburg says. You guys can whine all you want.
Excuse me but when a collector places a bid, he becomes a bidder. OK, so maybe he's not a collector. The point is, someone wanted the turbine enough to pay $840. Sure he only has 14 wins and could be a shill but the bidder before him at over $700 seems legit as he has a ton of winnings.
I understood your point at the beginning of the thread. However, you and a few others have done nothing but ridicule and protest people's values throughout the entire thread.
OK so Greenburg says it's worth $400. If I wanted it bad enough to pay $800, I'm going to pay it despite what Greenburg says. You guys can whine all you want.
Well now I AM lost. I see NO relation between number of winning bids, and the person's status as a collector or OPERATOR. When people pay ridiculous prices for items...as in double or triple what they are worth, I think they leave themselves open for at lease SOME criticism. But hey....you know the saying
And that will be proven when many of us buy the 682 in the same condition as this one for half or less than what this guy paid.
I'm just glad most of realize that the price paid was ridiculous and aren't stoopid enough to get involved in making the seller wealthy
If you read in the Greenburg's price guides, there's a little notation something to the effect that prices assume no box is included.
As I said, collectors pay a huge premium for rare boxes in solid. clean condition. That's why the price is $400 over Greenburg's guides.
And, yes, there are plenty of runner quality postwar pieces out there for not much money. Just a couple of weeks ago, I got a pair of milk cars for $18 for both. I could have gotten more at the same price easily. The same person had common non-operating cars for $5 a pop.
Prices have never come down on premium pieces and premium condition.
3railguy wrote: Deputy wrote: I'm with Eric, only thing the boxes are to me is handy if I want to pack stuff up. What many DON'T seem to realize is that ALL 682s are going for BIG $$$ on E-Bay...collector condition or not. I have no idea why. Maybe people are enthralled with that tiny little lubricating linkage gizmo...I dunno. But as far as I'm concerned, the price IN GREENBERG is what they should be selling for.DepGood grief. There are 14 bids in the auction which drove the price up to over $800. What was the seller supposed to do? End the auction when the bids reached Greenburgs? LMAO. What was the reserve"? What was the opening bid? Where is this $200 tender? Is $200 the opening bid by the seller? Or is $200 what the bidders drove the price up to.You seem to think Greenburg should dictate what dealers want. That isn't the case. Greenburg is a report of what people are paying for the stuff.And so what if bidders drive prices through the stratoshere during the holiday season? It's their money and like you, they can spend it however they danged well please. I know if someone ridiculed your values you would be blowing your ego all over this forum as you are now with this poor chap. As I said in my earlier post, people willingly pay $800 for a Lionel or MTH scale steam engine and that's OK because it has lots of detail, sounds, command control, etc. A collector sees little value in that. He see's $20 worth of digital chips. He sees value in a 60 year old piece preserved in great condition. You don't seem to want to understand that.
Deputy wrote: I'm with Eric, only thing the boxes are to me is handy if I want to pack stuff up. What many DON'T seem to realize is that ALL 682s are going for BIG $$$ on E-Bay...collector condition or not. I have no idea why. Maybe people are enthralled with that tiny little lubricating linkage gizmo...I dunno. But as far as I'm concerned, the price IN GREENBERG is what they should be selling for.Dep
Good grief. There are 14 bids in the auction which drove the price up to over $800. What was the seller supposed to do? End the auction when the bids reached Greenburgs? LMAO. What was the reserve"? What was the opening bid? Where is this $200 tender? Is $200 the opening bid by the seller? Or is $200 what the bidders drove the price up to.
You seem to think Greenburg should dictate what dealers want. That isn't the case. Greenburg is a report of what people are paying for the stuff.
And so what if bidders drive prices through the stratoshere during the holiday season? It's their money and like you, they can spend it however they danged well please. I know if someone ridiculed your values you would be blowing your ego all over this forum as you are now with this poor chap.
As I said in my earlier post, people willingly pay $800 for a Lionel or MTH scale steam engine and that's OK because it has lots of detail, sounds, command control, etc. A collector sees little value in that. He see's $20 worth of digital chips. He sees value in a 60 year old piece preserved in great condition. You don't seem to want to understand that.
Well now the buyer has changed like a chameleon. First he was a "collector" and now he is a mere "bidder". Nice sidestep
And I like the way you artfully switch sides to our way of thinking. I was not complaining that the seller got hosed. That's HIS problem. My original comment was "So much for Greenberg's Price Guide". Meaning either the price guide is way off, or people have lost their minds and are paying WAY OVER the value of the item. I prefer to believe the latter.The whole point of E-Bay is to get the maximum amount you can for your item. We all know that. I was simply stating that the prices are WHACKO right now...which they certainly ARE. As for the tender, you'll have to talk to lionroar88. I'm sure he didn't pull that amount out of thin air. Oh geez...now your last paragraph and you are back at assuming everyone buying on E-Bay are COLLECTORS. They AREN'T. You have NO WAY of knowing if the guy that got hosed with this 682 was Mickey the Mope buying for his spoiled kid, or Neil Young padding his collection.
Dep P.S. The title of my thread was aimed at comments that were posteed on the forum that postwar Lionel was generally going for dirt cheap. I suppose to some folks $800 IS dirt cheap.
What amazes me is people ASSUMING that this 682 was bought by a COLLECTOR!!! We DON'T KNOW if this loco/tender actually WENT to a collector. At this time of year, it could have just as easily gone to some rich SOB with money to burn. Oops...that almost describes me . But even I am not FOOLISH with my spending. If it DID go to a rich SOB, I doubt very much he gave two squirts if it came in the original Lionel box, a reproduction Lionel box, or a dang shoebox. Let's not just ASSUME that because the 682 is relatively uncommon (no way I would classify it "rare"), that it was bought by a collector.I'm with Eric, only thing the boxes are to me is handy if I want to pack stuff up. What many DON'T seem to realize is that ALL 682s are going for BIG $$$ on E-Bay...collector condition or not. I have no idea why. Maybe people are enthralled with that tiny little lubricating linkage gizmo...I dunno. But as far as I'm concerned, the price IN GREENBERG is what they should be selling for.
lionroar88: Doesn't surprise me about this guys tender price. It's pretty obvious he is a savvy seller that realizes he can hose people down this time of year. Pristine condition or not, this stuff simply ISN'T worth these premium prices.
As far as what the 681 is made out of, no it isn't cast iron (although it sure FEELS like it!). But these prices seem to indicate thay are made out of GOLD....and that just ain't so.
If it pisses you off people are selling this stuff for this kind of money and people are paying it, you should seek anger management counseling.
To say postwar steamers are cast iron proves you are the one without a clue. They are diecast zinc.
Dep I was looking at these last night, did you see this idiots price for the tender? $200!!!!I know the tenders are worth more than the engines in some cases because they are plastic and break easier than a cast iron engine, but these people are really pissing me off... pardon my french. I have a very deep suspision that the people buying these items are NOT true collectors because they would KNOW the real value of these items. To see a 682 going for $840 is just plain infrigginsane, no matter how you try to justify it... it can't be done in my opinion.
Guess I should try and unload my 2020 that I bought to rebuild and turn into a PSU engine. Heck it only fell 4 feet onto a concrete floor, only has a dented cowprod and a gouge on the cab roof, but heck it still could out pull a HUMMER I!
okiechoochoo wrote:I know the seller of this particular 682. He sells only the most pristine of postwar and gets very high prices. I have bought from him with great satisfiaction.
If that's the case, $840 is definately not throwing money in the wind for what he describes.
All Lionel all the time.
Okiechoochoo
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