RaleighTrainFan wrote:^ Thank you! Like you, I have considered joining TCA but in my case would have no idea how to find two people to "recommend" my membership. I would feel very weird about just "walking up" to someone.
I know you!!!!!! Yes we did meet. Enjoyed that conversation. Check out the progress on my layout ["Stop the Chief..." thread]. On membership, Miss Edna has forms and she, Jerry [guy with beard], Terry [tall guy with YANKEE accent], Steve [repair guy] and I will sign for you. If I'm not there, tell Miss Edna I sent you to get form. Glad you started posting [even though you are a lawyer ].
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
Deputy wrote:[ Nope...I ain't gonna go for the bait this time. Even a largemouth bass learns after being hooked too many times by an obvious lure Dep
Nope...I ain't gonna go for the bait this time. Even a largemouth bass learns after being hooked too many times by an obvious lure
Dep
Not really!!
$850.00 for a 682 in that condition I consider to be a steal. The problem (that many have already pointed out) is that about 1/2 of the people in this hobby are ignorant to the collector and out of all the hobbies I do, people involved in the O gauge hobby are by far the cheapest complainers. There is no doubt about that. I think it might be the only hobby where I'm dealing with a different older generation.
I was bidding on collector quality 681 YES a 681 not a 682 on Ebay about 6 weeks ago and the winning bid was WELL OVER $600.00. Why? Because its not junk like most of the people operate. COLLECTOR QUALITY CONDITION. C8 and above. Boxes, inserts, instructions, packing slip, smoke pellets, wooden tamper, tube of grease, etc. When a collector talks about a box he is not talking about some beat molded up thing that looks like it was chewed by a sewer rat.
WHENEVER, you are dealing with collector quality pre/postwar Lionel Trains ANY advanced collector will tell you that Greenbergs, TM, Dave Doyle or whatever that guys name is, guides are absolutley useless. There is no set price including the MINT 700E on Ebay that went for $101,000.
The Greenberg's price in EX for a 313 bascule bridge is $675.00. I just purchased a TCA C9 condtion 313 from 1948 for $1,900 on Ebay.
Like I stated in posts before, the gap is getting wider by the second between JUNK and collector quality. Several examples from the late 1980's and early 90's
A local shows you would see a 2343 F-3. Maybe VG to EX- condition w/o boxes and the price would be $425-$450. A couple of tables down and the same engine in a little better condtion with the boxes, inserts, etc. would be $550.
Today, the first engine you would be lucky to get $325. The second engine: $1000 and rising fast.
anjdevil2 wrote: Just for spite, I'm throwing out my Pennsy Flyer and Expansion pack boxes. Just for spite, you understand...Any takers?? Any one...?
Just for spite, I'm throwing out my Pennsy Flyer and Expansion pack boxes. Just for spite, you understand...
Any takers?? Any one...?
WAIT!!! DON'T THROW THOSE BOXES AWAY!!!! I have a fireplace and could use them for kindling. I'll give you $120 for them. But you have to sign a notarized form stating they are ORIGINAL boxes and not repros.
Virginian Railroad
I am the monster in your head...And I thought you'd learn by now, It seems you haven't yet.I am the venom in your skin --- Breaking Benjamin
3railguy wrote: ben10ben wrote: Yes, that was out of line, and for that I appologize. However, that still doesn't change what I've been trying to say. Ben, you owe nobody an apology. These self proclaimed experts have done nothing but humiliate the winning bidder. But, since he may not be a member of this forum, I guess they think it doesn't count. I find it amazing that some people, who only see half the picture, have nothing better to do than go off on a flaming rant about someone else's buisiness.
ben10ben wrote: Yes, that was out of line, and for that I appologize. However, that still doesn't change what I've been trying to say.
Ben,
you owe nobody an apology. These self proclaimed experts have done nothing but humiliate the winning bidder. But, since he may not be a member of this forum, I guess they think it doesn't count. I find it amazing that some people, who only see half the picture, have nothing better to do than go off on a flaming rant about someone else's buisiness.
Dep, some people just don't understand you
This thread is a testament that human beings are really hoarders. We'll collect anything. Personally, I think it's pretty cool that people can find value and collectibility in almost anything. I'm a hoarder. I've collected beer cans, bottle caps, comic books, baseball cards...what else? When I buy a train, it's a bonus to me if there is an original box, but not a requirement. Mainly, I like to be able to store it in something that was made to hold it. I remember as a kid throwing away the set box, the 2332 GG-1 box, my 115 station's box, and others. All these boxes lasted for years under my grandfather's care. As soon as I inheirited the trains as a 10 year old, I chuck all the oily used boxes out!!! I kept the trains thank goodness, and still have 'em. Now I wish I'd kept the boxes too. I would definitely part with the boxes and buy some more trains!!
The only collection I seem to have left tho are my trains. I think that says something about this hobby.
My ,
Jake (Dwayne)
John: To be honest (and I ALWAYS AM ), I thought about joining TCA. I saw the ad in Classic Toy Trains. One of the things that stopped me... "Applicants for membership must file a membership application and must be recommended by two regular members." I doubt if there are ANY members in my town, and I certainly wouldn't presume to ask people who didn't know me to recommend me. I went to a "train club" informal show in my town last month and what they had was pretty disappointing. It was mainly G-gauge or Marx or American Flyer. NO LIONEL OR MTH!!!!!
I did join the Lionel Railroader's Club and the MTH club as a Premiere member. There is also the problem with no train events anywhere close to where I live. Closest ones would be in Albuquerque and that's an all day drive for me. That's also where the closest train shops are located. I guess I will have to keep muddling through and making mistakes until I learn the ropes
beefmalone: No way hoesay! That's way to risky a method for me. That's why I adjust what I am willing to pay on E-Bay with the price it sells for.
Ben: No sweat. Just don't want you to get any of the reprimand letters from mods that I received recently
Ole Timer: Maybe I should just speak through you! You always say it better than me and I can avoid all the hassles with accidental stepping on toes.
RaleighTrainFan: Welcome! A hint...learn form the mistakes of others on the forum...like mine
Thank you John/csxt30; I appreciate the welcome. I had heard this forum was most friendly and you have confirmed that. Thanks again.
"Since you are from Raleigh, I guess you know about Todd's Train Depot and "Miss Edna" [she made the meet as it was on Sunday]. Several of us gather there each Saturday [if I am in town]. Give me an email at feagles1@nc.rr.com. Come over to the "Coffee Pot" thread and visit."
ChiefEagles, I believe I met you at that very place (Todd's) some time back (I am the lawyer who works in state personnel law) and you told me about this forum (for which I thank you!), where I have been reading ever since. I will take you up on the Coffee Pot invite and additionally hope to run into you again at Miss Edna's soon (I said hello to her at the show). I have not been back to Miss Edna's for a while due to all my time being spent constructing my new layout after years of mulling the notion. In the next few weeks I hope to take the 627 in for a checkup by the fine gentlemen in the back. I've taken too much of a shine to that little engine and don't want it to blow up for lack of maintenance.
Yes, that was out of line, and for that I appologize.
However, that still doesn't change what I've been trying to say.
All boxes are not created equal. The more difficult a piece is to find, the harder to find the box is.
682s aren't as common as, oh say, 1011 Scouts. I wouldn't call them rare, but they certainly are hard to find.
Turbines are all very desirable engines(hence the price). The 682 is the most desirable, as well as the rarest, of the turbines. This is why it's more expensive.
The one in the auction was in top shape with a top box. That's why it was expensive.
As others have said, the seller in question is very well respected. That goes a long way toward authenticating a box. I doubt that the same engine being sold by John Smith with 0 feedback to his name would have brought as much.
Dep: I will tell you what I think might help you. I would seriously think about joining the TCA . That organization can give you so much more info. The guys in there are really serious & adopted the code for pricing & well I can't think of it right now ! But I was a member years ago & you can learn so much it isn't funny. You'll learn how mistakes Lionel made on certain cars, are worth a fortune. They used to set the price guides & still do for The real big auctions. Please check them out & you just may find a member near you. They give you a directory after you join of all it's members in every region. I believe they can be a big help to you.
http://www.traincollectors.org/
Thanks, John
RaleighTrainFan wrote: Interesting thread, enough to draw me out of lurkdom.While obviously people can and should charge what they want to charge and pay what they want to pay, it is interesting how much folks are willing to pay for the "right thing."I am also amazed at the disparity of pricing you see for PW Lionel and other. This weekend at the Raleigh TCA sale I picked up the humble/homely (but to me very neat) Lehigh Valley 44-tonner for the right-at-Greenberg price of $65. It was in better than "good" condition too - looks pretty much perfect (a little stiff, but probably had not been run in years, a little oil and it zoomed around like a champ).At the next aisle there was a clown trying to peddle common-variety 2465 Sunoco Tank Cars for $100 per, and his other stock was at a similarly stratospheric markup. Not much traffic around that table, though I did observe a couple people sort of snorting in disbelief. There is clearly no substitute for being a well-informed and controlled buyer. That way you make an informed decision.
Interesting thread, enough to draw me out of lurkdom.
While obviously people can and should charge what they want to charge and pay what they want to pay, it is interesting how much folks are willing to pay for the "right thing."
I am also amazed at the disparity of pricing you see for PW Lionel and other. This weekend at the Raleigh TCA sale I picked up the humble/homely (but to me very neat) Lehigh Valley 44-tonner for the right-at-Greenberg price of $65. It was in better than "good" condition too - looks pretty much perfect (a little stiff, but probably had not been run in years, a little oil and it zoomed around like a champ).
At the next aisle there was a clown trying to peddle common-variety 2465 Sunoco Tank Cars for $100 per, and his other stock was at a similarly stratospheric markup. Not much traffic around that table, though I did observe a couple people sort of snorting in disbelief.
There is clearly no substitute for being a well-informed and controlled buyer. That way you make an informed decision.
I was there. Some good and some bad. Some junk. I picked up this lowly 2055.
Since you are from Raleigh, I guess you know about Todd's Train Depot and "Miss Edna" [she made the meet as it was on Sunday]. Several of us gather there each Saturday [if I am in town]. Give me an email at feagles1@nc.rr.com. Come over to the "Coffee Pot" thread and visit.
palallin wrote: I was only pointing out that anyone who pays for "original boxes" or "rare boxes" had better practice caveat emptor. If there is an EASY way to make money on the public, SOMEONE will take that way, even if it's illegal. So fake Lionel boxes ARE available out there. I doubt very much the experts could tell the difference. Considering it's nowhere near as difficult as counterfeit money to make. Secondly, REAL boxes are available for pretty cheap too. So paying a premium just because an item comes with a box just doesn't make a lot of sense...especially on E-bay. As is not unusual, you're only half right. The experts *can* tell the difference. This misguided assumption illustrates your problem: your perception of the hobby extends no further than your own narrow interests. You aren't a collector: fine. There is no reason that you should be. But you have no idea what the collector is or does or what his interests are, yet you yourself persist in treating them in an off-hand manner which reeks of personal insults. You declaim your conclusions as if they were gospel when they stem from ignorance.Boxes for these things have become the subject of a science. Box experts can spot fakes with great accuracy (repops are a red herring, as the collectors have no use for them if they can find originals). They track manufacturer, date, types of and composition of cardboard, inks, types styles, and a slew of other variables which make successful faking of these boxes not that much easier than making counterfeit money. Further, the number of surviving boxes, espially in superb condition, is but a fraction of the number of surviving trains. In fact, values of the boxes are very hard to figure because folks with more-or-less complete postwar collections are grabbign boxes right and left to upgrade. That end of the market is active and volatile. Certainly, some types of boxes, and with some types of trains, are more common than others, but great boxes are even more rare than the trains because of the fact that so many folks tore them up and used them for kindling. Common, ordinary, mid-grade trains are going relatively cheaply. Torn up boxes don't boost their value much. but primo trains in primo boxes will attract the interest of folks who have the knowledge and the bucks. You may not find their purchases wise, but your yardstick is not the one they're using. They apply tests of value that you don't acknowledge, but that lack of acknowledgement doesn't invalidate them. Stop proclaiming the True Answer when you don't even understand the question.
I was only pointing out that anyone who pays for "original boxes" or "rare boxes" had better practice caveat emptor. If there is an EASY way to make money on the public, SOMEONE will take that way, even if it's illegal. So fake Lionel boxes ARE available out there. I doubt very much the experts could tell the difference. Considering it's nowhere near as difficult as counterfeit money to make. Secondly, REAL boxes are available for pretty cheap too. So paying a premium just because an item comes with a box just doesn't make a lot of sense...especially on E-bay.
As is not unusual, you're only half right. The experts *can* tell the difference. This misguided assumption illustrates your problem: your perception of the hobby extends no further than your own narrow interests. You aren't a collector: fine. There is no reason that you should be. But you have no idea what the collector is or does or what his interests are, yet you yourself persist in treating them in an off-hand manner which reeks of personal insults. You declaim your conclusions as if they were gospel when they stem from ignorance.
Boxes for these things have become the subject of a science. Box experts can spot fakes with great accuracy (repops are a red herring, as the collectors have no use for them if they can find originals). They track manufacturer, date, types of and composition of cardboard, inks, types styles, and a slew of other variables which make successful faking of these boxes not that much easier than making counterfeit money.
Further, the number of surviving boxes, espially in superb condition, is but a fraction of the number of surviving trains. In fact, values of the boxes are very hard to figure because folks with more-or-less complete postwar collections are grabbign boxes right and left to upgrade. That end of the market is active and volatile. Certainly, some types of boxes, and with some types of trains, are more common than others, but great boxes are even more rare than the trains because of the fact that so many folks tore them up and used them for kindling.
Common, ordinary, mid-grade trains are going relatively cheaply. Torn up boxes don't boost their value much. but primo trains in primo boxes will attract the interest of folks who have the knowledge and the bucks. You may not find their purchases wise, but your yardstick is not the one they're using. They apply tests of value that you don't acknowledge, but that lack of acknowledgement doesn't invalidate them. Stop proclaiming the True Answer when you don't even understand the question.
I'd rather be 1/2 right, than ALL WRONG...hehehe. I am curious...just HOW is a collector (or anyone else for that matter) supposed to know, from the limited number of pictures presented on E-Bay, if the box is a fake or not? And I suspect the number of collectors who are at the level of being able to tell fake from real boxes is not very large. Considering well-done counterfeit money is more and more difficult to spot, even by the experts. Especially with the advent of computerization and scanners. I suppose an expert at a train show, where he can actually handle and inspect the boxes, might be able to tell a fake. But E-Bay offers no such luxury. Seems to me you would be taking a pretty big leap of faith to believe that ANY box on E-Bay is "authentic".
Raleigh Trainfan !! I think one of our members was there at that show too !! Chief !!
Glad you came out of Lurkdom !!
okiechoochoo wrote:This one compared to the one that sold for over $800 is a piece of junk. This one has no tender, is well used, you can see several chips and scratches in the pictures, it is filthy and read the description, it is missing parts. Oh, I almost forgot to mention, no boxes. Even at $153.00, from the eye of the serious LN to Mint with boxes collector, I can certainly see the price difference.
This is typical of Antique mall dealers near me with overpriced junk. They see postwar in top condition go for top dollar and get the idea their junk is worth at least half that. Well, it's only worth 10 cents on the dollar and it sits in their cases for years until one day, they decide they'll have to take a loss in order to move it.
ben10ben wrote: Good gosh, is his head made out of iridium? He's dense enough that I'm beginning to think that. Rare boxes in good conditions=high prices. Ever seen a premium 726 box with inserts come up for sale? A couple of years ago, one came up for sale on Ebay(in the middle of summer, incidentally) and brough around $2500. A 682 box with an engine in it for $850 sounds like a pretty good bargain considering.
Good gosh, is his head made out of iridium? He's dense enough that I'm beginning to think that.
Rare boxes in good conditions=high prices. Ever seen a premium 726 box with inserts come up for sale? A couple of years ago, one came up for sale on Ebay(in the middle of summer, incidentally) and brough around $2500.
A 682 box with an engine in it for $850 sounds like a pretty good bargain considering.
Ben Ben Ben...first off please avoid anything that appears to be a personal insult. The mods will lock this thread down in a heartbeat. I really don't want that. Secondly, I was only pointing out that anyone who pays for "original boxes" or "rare boxes" had better practice caveat emptor. If there is an EASY way to make money on the public, SOMEONE will take that way, even if it's illegal. So fake Lionel boxes ARE available out there. I doubt very much the experts could tell the difference. Considering it's nowhere near as difficult as counterfeit money to make. Secondly, REAL boxes are available for pretty cheap too. So paying a premium just because an item comes with a box just doesn't make a lot of sense...especially on E-bay.
Dep...aka ol' iridum head
EXACTLY!!! And great observations! Add to that NO PAY PAL. I e-mailed the seller and asked why he had Pay Pal listed but also that he didn't take it. He said it was a problem with E-Bay. Probably a guy that is new to E-Bay and not aware that you can do Buy It Now without the Pay Pal thing. I don't think I'd go so far as to say a piece of junk. It certainly needs a good deal of TLC. Tenders can be had pretty cheap. Any wear can be handled with replacement parts. Chips and scratches can be fixed. So it does need some work. I have seen some examples sold for considerably MORE that were missing ALL the oiler linkage on BOTH sides and had tons of rust on the underneath.
Boxes...this keeps coming up. So I did a little poking around. There are a LOT of Lionel boxes for sale both on E-Bay and elsewhere. They are even selling the bg cardboard boxes that sets come in. Many of them are in great condition. So boxes really SHOULDN'T be a big price factor...unless someone is too lazy to actually search for them. Don't be surprised if many of these "minty" boxes are repros too. There seems to be a cottage industry in making stuff that Lionel collectors will shell out big $$$ for
All Lionel all the time.
Okiechoochoo
Again...I agree with Jake 100%. My strategy remains to keep an eye on the 682s, and after Christmas, jump on the "buyer's remorse" bandwagon. I have NO doubt that E-Bay and the train stores will be flush with people looking for ways to get some cash to pay off their charge card bills. I will swoop down like a vulture and seize the opportunity to get a 682 at GREENBERG'S recommended/reasonable price
BTW...check this one out. Oops...no sale for this guy!!! No tender. No boxes. Just the loco for $200 Buy it now and reserve was NOT met at $153...which is probably MORE than what this thing is worth. Helooooo Barret Jackson
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=006&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=160062079129&rd=1&rd=1
I apologize in advance for this long rant...
Sellers usually want the highest price they can get for their merchandise, and usually buyers want to pay the lowest price they can. I'm all for it. I don't have any qualms with the seller of the 682, I don't think anyone is questioning his integrity or anything like that (although I can personally question some sellers based on my experience). I think the point people are making here is that some prices are out of line with their personal experience/expectations or what they consider reasonable.
This one particular sale shouldn't be used as a barometer for the whole market either. There are always outliers either way. No one has posted yet getting a mint never run 2332 GG1 for say $100 bucks. That one sale (if it even exists - hey I can dream) wouldn't be a gauge for the direction of the market either.
As I said in my earlier posts, and it's cliche but true: something is only worth what someone is willing to pay. That goes for trains, cars houses, etc. People have their own motivations for wanting to purchase. That motivation partially drives what they'll pay. If I covet GG-1's (I do...), I may pay more for one I consider in top condition. In the end the buyer of that 682 believed they were paying a fair price for the advertised condition of the train. For them it was a fair deal. I'm in.
You know the stock market works the same way. In order for you to make money in the market someone has to be willing and able to pay more for the stock than you paid for it. The beauty of capitalistic economics
PS If anyone has that minty 2332 GG-1 for 100bucks lemme know!!
Oh, one more thing, if the price is too high - don't buy.
VERY WELL SAID JAKE!!!! You put it into words much better than I can. Thank you!
Eric: E-Bay is a tricky place to deal with and you CAN get some great buys there. You can also get burned very badly. There are certain procedures you need to do (as Jake described) and ways to safeguard making payments. Personally, I don't buy from anyone who only takes checks or money orders. Once they are cashed, POOF....that money is gone and there is no way to recoup it. E-Bay only covers up to $200 for those kinds of deals. If you use a Credit Card, it gets safer because if the seller doesn't ship, or what he ships doesn't match what he described, you can get hold of your credit card company and get the charge removed. Of course, if you buy something and get it and it's not what was described and you ask for a credit from the charge card company, you have to return the item too.
Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
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