Hey guys, It's hard for me to sit by and watch everyone go off on half-wrong tangents.
1) About MTH unwilling to settle: Lionel offered to settle with MTH back when Bill Bracy was running Lionel, before the original trial got started in 2004. MTH said the offer was tiny and MTH said no. But MTH said it really would have settled if Lionel had come back with what sounded to me at the time like a reasonable offer (I truely don't recall the amount any longer, but it turned out to be a fraction of the $40 million jury award.) So to say MTH has too much of an ego ever to settle is wrong.
2) About MTH and prewar reproductions: MTH did make a good profit on reproductions, which is what Mike Wolf was doing for Richard Kughn many years ago before MTH became a manufacturer. The two had a falling out in which MTH (then Mike's Train House, a retail outlet) was stripped of its Lionel dealer status. That lead to an out-of-court settlement which, among many things, allowed MTH to make certain tinplate reproductions that it had already been making. MTH didn't just go ahead and make reproductions, Lionel be damned.
3) About MTH's press release on Thursday: Yea, it's not the best, but re-read the Lionel press release called "what a difference a day makes" on the Lionel website (under pressroom). It's a response to all of the forum bashing Lionel received last winter when Sun Models was blowing out the K-Line steamers that never made it to K-Line's warehouse. The tone of it isn't a whole lot different. I'm just as guilty at times, there have been some CTT editorials that I would have liked to have taken back (and the readers have let me know about it).
4) About Lionel being vindicated: The appeals court said MTH's expert witness was no good, the jury was wrongly piling on the financial penalty against Lionel, and the appeals court told the lower court to accept Lionel's previously denied motion for a new trial based on legal, not win-lose, issues. Great news for Lionel, which now can get itself out of bankruptcy and continue to do well selling train sets. The appellate court action says nothing about which party was right and which party was wrong. So for the time being no one is right and no one is wrong.
Now I'm not trying to pick a fight or take sides -- I have trains of both colors at my house, and as editor of Classic Toy Trains for nearly 10 years I have traveled to Michigan and Maryland more times than I can recall. But for years I have watched hobbyists bash Mike Wolf using half-truths or falsehoods and that's just wrong.
I cringe when I think about new hobbyists running across threads like this. It hardly makes anyone want to become part of the O gauge hobby. I know none of us wants that to happen.
Anyway, we don't plan to pull the plug on this thread, but please focus your thoughts on the issues, not Jerry Calabrese, Mike Wolf, or each other. Thanks, and I'll get off my soap box now.
Neil Besougloff editor
Neil Besougloff
editor, Model Railroader magazine
Frank53 wrote: Deputy wrote: BTW...Dewey, Cheatum and Howe predate MTH by a long stretch. If memory serves me, the 3 stooges used those same monikers in one of their short subjects.Depthat's pretty much common knowledge, doesn't surprise me that it was ripped off from the intellectual property of others.
Deputy wrote: BTW...Dewey, Cheatum and Howe predate MTH by a long stretch. If memory serves me, the 3 stooges used those same monikers in one of their short subjects.Dep
BTW...Dewey, Cheatum and Howe predate MTH by a long stretch. If memory serves me, the 3 stooges used those same monikers in one of their short subjects.
Dep
that's pretty much common knowledge, doesn't surprise me that it was ripped off from the intellectual property of others.
Uh-oh...sounds like someone is looking for those black helicopters. DON'T LOOK UNDER YOUR BED...THE BOOGEYMAN WILL GET YOU!!! And MTH is a powerful organization with spies and thieves-in-the night that will take the eye teeth out of your children before the tooth fairy can give them their quarters. Sheesh...some folks will believe ANTHING!!!!
I bet all of this is just because MTH is coming out with the Coors Silver Bullet train. Lionel is just plain jealous of it. It's the SOOOOOUUUULLLLL TRAIN!!!!
Virginian Railroad
Frank53 wrote: I would rather see the money that is being spent on this issue be spent on product development, quality control and improved delivery and service myself. The only folks who have benefited from this (besides Allan Miller's funnybone) are the Lionel Attornies, as it is believed the MTH attornies took the case on contingency, with MTH only paying legal expenses. In any event, the time, money and diversion of management attention that has been poured into this has been at the expense of the three rail o-gauge hobbyist. I'd rather see the companies put their financial resources to good use and go forward, rather than expend thier funds on attornies just so one guy could get a chuckle. If I wanted laughs, I could rent a copy of "Blazing Saddles"
I would rather see the money that is being spent on this issue be spent on product development, quality control and improved delivery and service myself. The only folks who have benefited from this (besides Allan Miller's funnybone) are the Lionel Attornies, as it is believed the MTH attornies took the case on contingency, with MTH only paying legal expenses. In any event, the time, money and diversion of management attention that has been poured into this has been at the expense of the three rail o-gauge hobbyist.
I'd rather see the companies put their financial resources to good use and go forward, rather than expend thier funds on attornies just so one guy could get a chuckle. If I wanted laughs, I could rent a copy of "Blazing Saddles"
Frank, I agree with your above statement except for two small items.
First, the attorneys that I have been associated with, will take the initial case on a contingency, but if there is an appeal, as there was in this case, the appeal is performed on an hourly basis. Either way you are 100% correct saying that the three rail o gauger is paying.
Second, for laughs and bowing to the pressures of keeping our postings tilted towards trains, I might be renting, "Silver Streak" instead of "Blazing Saddles".
Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum.
Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..
Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR
TCA 09-64284
Hmmm...
Getting rid of Wolf's "Pop Goes the Weasel" cd or feeding him some cheese first might result in a more amicable meeting......
WOOOWOOOWOOOOWOOOOWOOO!!!!!! Soitnely!!!!!!
Unfortunately I can't see any reasonable end to this insanity. The best thing for the hobby would be for Lionel and MTH to seriously sit down and grind out a settlement. However, the Wolf has a huge chip on his shoulder re: Lionel (and a massive ego to match) and likely won't settle for any amount less than that which would drive nails in Lionel's coffin - he wants it all, period (afterall, he's got another Lionel lawsuit waiting in the wings). Lionel probably won't offer more than a token amount and likely won't admit to any semblance of guilt (gotta protect that "pure as the wind driven snow" image), or at least any guilt beyond individual unsactioned actions by personnel long gone from the company. The two sides are worlds apart from any reasonable negotiated settlement - this will go on until one or the other finally goes belly-up. And that will not benefit the hobby in any way, shape, or form.
I sure hope I'm wrong, but I've never been much of an optimist...
Deputy wrote: Frank53 wrote: Someone jogged my memory on these items put out by MTH in the wake of the original verdict:Dewey Cheatum & Howe Bankruptcy Attorneys building by MTHand of course the US Distirct Courthouse Building - specifically the eastern district of Michigan variety:There's nothing wrong with being a gracious winner, something MTH never understood. This stuff ALWAYS comes back to haunt you. HA!!! Those are definite additions to my future layout. BTW...Dewey, Cheatum and Howe predate MTH by a long stretch. If memory serves me, the 3 stooges used those same monikers in one of their short subjects. I give MTH a big for having a sense of humor about the whole thing. Too bad it whooshes over some folks heads Dep
Frank53 wrote: Someone jogged my memory on these items put out by MTH in the wake of the original verdict:Dewey Cheatum & Howe Bankruptcy Attorneys building by MTHand of course the US Distirct Courthouse Building - specifically the eastern district of Michigan variety:There's nothing wrong with being a gracious winner, something MTH never understood. This stuff ALWAYS comes back to haunt you.
Someone jogged my memory on these items put out by MTH in the wake of the original verdict:
Dewey Cheatum & Howe Bankruptcy Attorneys building by MTH
and of course the US Distirct Courthouse Building - specifically the eastern district of Michigan variety:
There's nothing wrong with being a gracious winner, something MTH never understood. This stuff ALWAYS comes back to haunt you.
HA!!! Those are definite additions to my future layout. BTW...Dewey, Cheatum and Howe predate MTH by a long stretch. If memory serves me, the 3 stooges used those same monikers in one of their short subjects. I give MTH a big for having a sense of humor about the whole thing. Too bad it whooshes over some folks heads
or under some folks feet.
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
Bob Keller
"What we have here, is a failure ...to communicate"
Oh GEEZ Paul...you are KILLING me!!!!
LIONEL
Stan.
THE SOUTHERN SERVES THE SOUTH.
Hmmmm...the poop is getting deep now. Gotta get those hipboots on. History is being rewritten before our very eyes. And the banner of inexpensive trainsets is again being flown from the 027 rooftops. I LOVE IT!!!!
Frank, thanks for the Mike Wolf statement. It sound's like a statement he might make.
He just fails to forget that his company made some hefty profits from the copying of many, many Lionel products. Regardless of patent regulations or time limits, the fact remains that a good many MTH Railking items and accessories were lifted from Lionel designs. Reminds me of the old saying, what goes around, comes around.
Also Lionel did not drive K-Line out of business. Lionel's first settlement with K-Line allowed them to continue operations. It wasn't until K-Line issued their somewhat out of left field "Shared Technology Agreement with Lionel" that a reversal was made. And again, though he has never said so publically, I strongly get the feeling MTH would like to see Lionel out of business or under MTH control.... maybe there's a little bit of envy coming though.
The implications against Grubba when he was with K-Line are a little more convincing. K-Line was a small company and it is unlikely anythinhg was done with out the direct consent and authorization from Maury Klein. Lionel is a larger company (and was certainly larger when Grubba was employed there). Though it might seem harder to believe, there exists the possibility that not everyone at Lionel at that time was aware of what was going on between Grubba, the Korean designers and anyone else involved with the product/engineering development process.
Funny to me how the focus of the hobby for the past decade and more has been on pleasing the MINORITY of consumers, though that minority has more spending power. But still not enough spending power to actively support the products they want - and STILL are asking for more of, and all involving brand new tooling. And now we have all this legal brew-ha-ha over trying to please a few people which diverts money and attention from everything associated with running a product company.
I know we can argue this following point until we're blue in the face, but all these high end products HAVE NOT made the hobby better. They give the perception to the general public this is an expensive adult only hobby and divert money from much needed advertising and public relations. And in another 20 years or so all these high end electronic trains are gonna mean as much diddly-do as the so-called postwar collectible trains of the current moment.
Between the lawsuits, legal costs and trying to please the unpleasable adult market, there's barely any money left over to do the REAL job that needs to be done and has been overlooked for the past couple of decades. Jerry Calabrese knows this, and I hope he has the courage to stand up to his critics and nay-sayers and devote more attention and product development money to making Lionel the train company it once was. There are good signs that this is alreay starting to happen. They need to focus more on the real kids and not the adults who simply act like children with their insatiable need for more and more expensive trains (see the lengthy usually impractical "wish lists" that frequent OGR) that they themselves cannot support.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Dep...hands a fresh box of popcorn to Allan and searches out some front row seats.
MTH has issued a statement regarding the verdict - this came from another site, and I don't guarantee it's accuracy. I edited out the "about MTH" fluff at the bottom of the MTH release.
Looks like Allan Miller will get his wish and the hobby will continue to languish in litigation, rather than moving forward for the benefit of the hobbyist:
"Obviously, we are very disappointed with the Court of Appeals' decision to remand this case for a new trial, but the decision in no way vindicates Lionel for its actions" said M.T.H. founder and President Mike Wolf. "This has already been a long ordeal for everyone here at M.T.H., but the decision to remand the case for a new trial will not deter us from our relentless pursuit of justice. We have faith in the U.S. jury system. The jury got it right the first time, and we have no reason to believe it will not get it right a second time."Wolf added, "We are particularly disappointed the appeals court did not seem to consider the trial evidence concerning Lionel's destruction of key documents, which led the trial judge to instruct the jury that it could infer from the failure of any party to produce a document that the document would be unfavorable to that party. We believe the jury verdict was influenced more by evidence of document destruction than by M.T.H.'s expert witness testimony."According to Wolf, the issue of document destruction will not go away during a retrial. He said the retrial could get "very interesting" because during Lionel's bankruptcy case, Lionel sued its former chief engineer, Bob Grubba - one of Lionel's star witnesses in the first trial - for working with a then current Lionel employee to obtain and use Lionel's trade secrets for the benefit of another company, K-Line, for whom Grubba was working at the time. Lionel also accused Grubba of trying to cover his tracks by destroying key evidence of the scheme. MTH presented evidence of the same pattern of misappropriation and destruction of documents in its case against Lionel. "It is ironic that in the seven years since M.T.H. first filed its lawsuit against Lionel, M.T.H. has not received any compensation for its damages, while during that same period of time Lionel has taken control of and put out of business a 30-year old North Carolina competitor, without a trial, based on the very same claims of conduct by Lionel against Grubba and K-Line as M.T.H. claimed and proved against Lionel during a jury trial," said Wolf.Wolf did not rule out an out-of-court settlement of this long-running dispute, stating M.T.H. has always been willing to negotiate in good faith to resolve legal disputes, pointing to M.T.H.'s recent settlement of the lawsuit filed against it by Union Pacific, which benefited the entire model railroading industry. "Unfortunately, Lionel has refused thus far to acknowledge responsibility for any of its actions, leaving us no choice but to vigorously pursue our claim through the legal system. Maybe that mindset will change under Lionel's current management."The Sixth Circuit's decision does not have any impact on the trial court's judgment entered against Lionel's co-defendants Korea Brass Co., Ltd. and Yoo Chan Yang, collection of which M.T.H. is pursuing on several fronts.
Wolf added, "We are particularly disappointed the appeals court did not seem to consider the trial evidence concerning Lionel's destruction of key documents, which led the trial judge to instruct the jury that it could infer from the failure of any party to produce a document that the document would be unfavorable to that party. We believe the jury verdict was influenced more by evidence of document destruction than by M.T.H.'s expert witness testimony."
According to Wolf, the issue of document destruction will not go away during a retrial. He said the retrial could get "very interesting" because during Lionel's bankruptcy case, Lionel sued its former chief engineer, Bob Grubba - one of Lionel's star witnesses in the first trial - for working with a then current Lionel employee to obtain and use Lionel's trade secrets for the benefit of another company, K-Line, for whom Grubba was working at the time. Lionel also accused Grubba of trying to cover his tracks by destroying key evidence of the scheme. MTH presented evidence of the same pattern of misappropriation and destruction of documents in its case against Lionel. "It is ironic that in the seven years since M.T.H. first filed its lawsuit against Lionel, M.T.H. has not received any compensation for its damages, while during that same period of time Lionel has taken control of and put out of business a 30-year old North Carolina competitor, without a trial, based on the very same claims of conduct by Lionel against Grubba and K-Line as M.T.H. claimed and proved against Lionel during a jury trial," said Wolf.
Wolf did not rule out an out-of-court settlement of this long-running dispute, stating M.T.H. has always been willing to negotiate in good faith to resolve legal disputes, pointing to M.T.H.'s recent settlement of the lawsuit filed against it by Union Pacific, which benefited the entire model railroading industry. "Unfortunately, Lionel has refused thus far to acknowledge responsibility for any of its actions, leaving us no choice but to vigorously pursue our claim through the legal system. Maybe that mindset will change under Lionel's current management."
The Sixth Circuit's decision does not have any impact on the trial court's judgment entered against Lionel's co-defendants Korea Brass Co., Ltd. and Yoo Chan Yang, collection of which M.T.H. is pursuing on several fronts.
nblum wrote: " "It ain't over till it's over"" "In the long run, we're all dead." John Maynard Keynes Which is why MTH should give up making lawsuits and legal threats and get back to devoting all their attention to doing something socially and economically useful, like designing and producing great trains. They're not going to beat Lionel with lawsuits alone :).
" "It ain't over till it's over""
"In the long run, we're all dead." John Maynard Keynes
Which is why MTH should give up making lawsuits and legal threats and get back to devoting all their attention to doing something socially and economically useful, like designing and producing great trains. They're not going to beat Lionel with lawsuits alone :).
Hmmm...how about "it takes TWO to tango"? I thought they ALREADY beat Lionel
Mickey,
Thanks for the educated comments.
Jim H
Allan Miller wrote:I'm hoping for a new trial. It's fun reading the impassioned posts of fervent banner-carriers.
phillyreading wrote: Regardless of who wins in court the price for O gauge trains will continue to climb to pay for the court costs of both parties involved. I would like to see this case resolved so we can all get on with model trains.Lee F.
Regardless of who wins in court the price for O gauge trains will continue to climb to pay for the court costs of both parties involved. I would like to see this case resolved so we can all get on with model trains.
Lee F.
ROFL!!!! Good one Allan. Laughed so hard I nearly peed my pants. You're right, it's better than watching the crowds cheering for their favorite sports team!!!
dwiemer wrote: Mickey, thanks for sifting through the "legaleze" for us. BTW, what is the difference between a lawyer and a catfish? One is a bottom feeding scumsucker, the other is a fish.Dennis
Mickey, thanks for sifting through the "legaleze" for us. BTW, what is the difference between a lawyer and a catfish? One is a bottom feeding scumsucker, the other is a fish.
Dennis
HA! Love it!!!!
TCA#09-63805
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