brianel027 wrote: Duputy, you can believe whatever you want, but your take on this tells me not to take too much of what you say at face value. You left out a key paragraph from the wikipedia article (bold text emphasized by me): "Over the next few months, K-Line's operations slowed and there were numerous layoffs and rumors of potential purchasers, which were highly publicized among hobbyists. On February 16, 2006, Lionel announced it had purchased K-Line. Since Lionel was also in bankruptcy, the deal, which actually involved the purchase of K-Line by Sanda Kan, its Chinese subcontractor, followed by Sanda Kan's licensing of the trademarks and intellectual property to Lionel, took several weeks to become final. The deal was finalized on April 18, 2006, and Lionel made the announcement the following day." Regardless of what you have read or incorrectily believe, Lionel does not as of yet OWN K-Line. Lionel entered a marketing agreement with Sanda Kan, so that Sanda Kan could recoup some of their losses to MDK. I'm sure Lionel is not mourning the loss of K-Line as an independ company for it is less competition, however large or small the amount of MDK sales. Lionel has had or currently has licensing agreements with Warner Brothers, Disney and NACAR, yet Lionel does not OWN Warner Brothers, Disney or NASCAR. Using your logic Dep, one would say Lionel does own those companies, and we all know that is hardly the case. Matter of fact if Lionel owned Warner Brothers (which by your logic Dep, they do) they'd still be producing Warner Brothers items, which they are not because they did not renew their marketing agreement with WB. According to your logic, Lionel also owns KODAK. Yet when Lionel produced KODAK items without permission, KODAK threatened legal action and the items were discontinued. Same goes for K-Line and KODAK. A licensing agreement is a totally different arrangement than ownership. Sorry, but sounds to me like you do not understand the very words you quote Deputy. Lionel does not own K-Line. They might one day, but not now.
Duputy, you can believe whatever you want, but your take on this tells me not to take too much of what you say at face value. You left out a key paragraph from the wikipedia article (bold text emphasized by me):
"Over the next few months, K-Line's operations slowed and there were numerous layoffs and rumors of potential purchasers, which were highly publicized among hobbyists. On February 16, 2006, Lionel announced it had purchased K-Line. Since Lionel was also in bankruptcy, the deal, which actually involved the purchase of K-Line by Sanda Kan, its Chinese subcontractor, followed by Sanda Kan's licensing of the trademarks and intellectual property to Lionel, took several weeks to become final. The deal was finalized on April 18, 2006, and Lionel made the announcement the following day."
Regardless of what you have read or incorrectily believe, Lionel does not as of yet OWN K-Line. Lionel entered a marketing agreement with Sanda Kan, so that Sanda Kan could recoup some of their losses to MDK. I'm sure Lionel is not mourning the loss of K-Line as an independ company for it is less competition, however large or small the amount of MDK sales.
Lionel has had or currently has licensing agreements with Warner Brothers, Disney and NACAR, yet Lionel does not OWN Warner Brothers, Disney or NASCAR. Using your logic Dep, one would say Lionel does own those companies, and we all know that is hardly the case. Matter of fact if Lionel owned Warner Brothers (which by your logic Dep, they do) they'd still be producing Warner Brothers items, which they are not because they did not renew their marketing agreement with WB. According to your logic, Lionel also owns KODAK. Yet when Lionel produced KODAK items without permission, KODAK threatened legal action and the items were discontinued. Same goes for K-Line and KODAK.
A licensing agreement is a totally different arrangement than ownership. Sorry, but sounds to me like you do not understand the very words you quote Deputy. Lionel does not own K-Line. They might one day, but not now.
First off it's NOT what I say, It's what LIONEL says. Yes, I left that part off that you quoted. And let's take a CLOSER look at that part. Hmmm...let me QUOTE directly from what you posted
"On February 16, 2006, Lionel announced it had purchased K-Line."
Now that comes STRAIGHT from Lionel's mouth. So does everything else I posted with the excpetion of the statement from that train dealer. If you want to row up the river DeNile, that's your choice. But don't hand me double talk and legalese that is based solely on your interpretations or heresay "proof" from "people in the know". Find someone else's hairs to split. I can't spare any. Who is selling the K-Line stuff...is it MTH...nope. Is it Atlas...nope. Where is it advertised? In the MTH catalog? Nope. In the Atlas or Williams catalog? Nope. Is Lionel just doing K-Line a favor by advertising their stuff in their catalog? I don't think so. Can it get any PLAINER than that???? If a thing looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and craps like a duck, I think we can pretty much accept it IS a duck.
Dep
Virginian Railroad
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
THE SOUTHERN SERVES THE SOUTH.
And from Lionel themsleves:
http://www.lionel.com/CentralStation/newsStand/viewrelease.cfm?newsID=124
K-LINE – ... Lionel will take control of the K-Line brand, its tooling, its inventory of unsold products, and everything else that lawyers and accountants call, “assets.” As soon as we can straighten things out and get organized, Lionel will make new products under the K-Line brand, and market and sell those products as part of the Lionel line."
"It's no secret that Save the Rails is in a class by itself. We are dedicated to providing you with the finest model trains and railroads from industry leaders such as K-LINE Electric Trains™ which is now own(ed) by Lionel."
http://www.savethetrains.com/index.html
K-Line and Lionel were known to criticize one another's offerings in print advertisements, and the two companies challenged one another in court as well. On July 27, 2005, Lionel sued K-Line, alleging that K-Line, its president, and its engineer Robert Grubba (a former Lionel employee) had paid Lionel engineer Marty Pierson for proprietary information about Lionel's speed control and sound systems, in addition to information about the electrical transformer Lionel bundles in its train sets. The two companies settled the suit on August 10, with K-Line agreeing to withdraw the infringing products by January 31, 2006 and paying a royalty to Lionel in the interim. K-Line also licensed some of its technology to Lionel, and reimbursed $700,000 of legal costs. Shortly thereafter the settlement fell apart and on August 23, 2005, MDK filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. On October 27, K-Line and Lionel reached a new settlement, including a permanent injunction against manufacturing products containing the disputed technology, a $2 million damage claim in its bankruptcy case, and royalty-free access to several K-Line patents.
K-Line's 2005 bankruptcy petition stated that its annual sales were between $7 and $8 million.
Over the next few months, K-Line's operations slowed and there were numerous layoffs and rumors of potential purchasers, which were highly publicized among hobbyists.
On February 16, 2006, Lionel announced it had purchased K-Line.
Since Lionel was also in bankruptcy, the deal, which actually involved the purchase of K-Line by Sanda Kan, its Chinese subcontractor, followed by Sanda Kan's licensing of the trademarks and intellectual property to Lionel, took several weeks to become final. The deal was finalized on April 18, 2006, and Lionel made the announcement the following day.
Prior to the 2005 legal action, the relationship between Lionel and K-Line had generally been more amicable than Lionel's relationship with MTH. Lionel has licensed TMCC to K-Line, and K-Line produces a number of repair manuals for postwar-era Lionel. K-Line has also produced commemorative cars celebrating some of Lionel's significant anniversaries, which has sometimes caused confusion among collectors.
Because K-Line's budget offerings remain almost unchanged from the old Marx designs, Marx collectors sometimes source spare parts from K-Line.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-Line
Sure sound slike Lionel OWNS K-Line to me
It is an easier to read version of all the previous Williams Trains mailers.
One surprise is the Dummy Units for all the GP38 Loco roadnames.
They are slow, or, careful in adding Canadian National and Grand Trunk Western items.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Dep, don't know what you read, but the short version is K-Line thought they could take a short cut by taking advantage of a Lionel employee and borrow Lionel technology and engineering. I'm sure K-Line thought they weren't stealing, but rather analyzing and then improving on. But K-Line was caught with email correspondence that implicated Bob Grubba and Maury Klein himself. Grubba had also been at Lionel at one time. Lionel obtained a cease and desist on the sales of the K-Line products using the Lionel technology. K-LIne was allowed to be in business. But then K-Line published their take on the agreement as a vicotry for them in a "shared technology agreement." And that's when Lionel retailiated.
K-Line put millions into tooling and engineering on high end products that weren't selling at K-Line's already attractive list, and ended blowing out many at up to half off. I could see the writing on the wall 3 years ago and accurately predicted K-Line would go under because of their excessive development of high end products.
And what you have read on line about Lionel and K-Line is also wrong. Lionel has a marketing agreement with the Asian vendor Sanda Kan (who makes everyone's trains except MTH now, who had their own facility built for at least some of their production). Lionel does not OWN K-Line, but simply has permission to have K-Line products made and then marketed under the Lionel banner.... quite different from ownership.
As I have said countless times before, the high end products in and of themselves are not bad - and many do like them. BUT it is also obviously a minority of buyers. Yet the train companies have gone out on a limb to cater to every whim of these customers.
Williams may not please everyone, but they have a good plan... make a limited range of products in a wide variety of roadnames and sell them affordably, or at a competive value price as compared to the others. The Williams catalog may be heavy on previously issued products, but I doubt Willilams is in the money troubles that both Lionel and MTH are in. Don't kid yourself... MTH is a privately owned company so internal info is less forthcoming, but I'm certain money is tight and that MW has borrowed heavily to keep himself going. MTH may have the most catalog introductions, but they also have the most cancellations if anything fails even remotely to garnish enough preorders... even on products that normally do not sell from preorders.
The new catalog must be helping business at Williams. I've been trying to call to renew my Platinum membership and I continue to receive an "All our operators are helping other customers" recording. Guess I'll try again later.
Buckeye Riveter wrote: I want to thank my good OTTS buddy, Blueberry Hill, aka Chuck of I found my thrills on Blueberry Hill, for my first Williams Catalog. Due to the catalog, Williams is in my future.
I want to thank my good OTTS buddy, Blueberry Hill, aka Chuck of I found my thrills on Blueberry Hill, for my first Williams Catalog. Due to the catalog, Williams is in my future.
You are welcome Buckeye of Roger's Corners. I have found a lot of thrills from Williams and am not sorry for any. Those E's are really nice. I have a F-7 AA that looks and runs great. Also a Seaboard NW-2 switcher.
jaabat wrote:What did you see that caught your Buck-eye?
F and E units with passenger cars
Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum.
Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..
Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR
TCA 09-64284
Jim: I understand your situation and I agree with it. I suppose I should say "comparitively speaking" they are cheap. I bought a Williams (which is pretty inexpensive compared to Lionel-MTH) NW-2 Switcher that cost $149.95. That's pretty "cheap" as far as I'm concenred. Only loco I have lower than that is a NYC Docksider for $104.95. Don't mistake "cheap" with poorly constructed. That's not what I meant. And I'm glad you are able to get in the 0-Gauge fraternity by buying those inexpensive (there...is that more PC?) trainsets. Perhaps at a later date your kids will ask (demand?) that you invest in higher grade rolling stock. Or maybe they'll get a job and buy their own higher level trains (one can only hope). I'm not sure I agree with the "expensive stuff breaks as much as the inexpensive stuff". I think expensive stuff has more that can go wrong with it, and if the operator is treating expensive stuff like the cheap stuff...well...yes it will break quickly. For example...I don't foresee EVER "maxing out" the speed control on any of my trains. #1 I like them moving slow...they look better and I didn't pay $1000+ to see a blur going down the tracks. #2 Slower generally means SAFER. Less chance of a Gomez Addams collision than if they are flying down the track at full speed.
As to K-Line...from what I read online, Lionel took a pretty active part in attacking it. Makes financial business sense...drive them close to bankruptcy and then buy them out dirt cheap. Hello hostile takeover.
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
brianel027 wrote: "Just dont have the level of detail we all love." You have to speak for yourself pigseyes... their detail level is absolutely perfect just as is. And according to Lionel's own published statements, the bulk of their sales are in the starter set area and traditional starter rolling stock/items areas. And given that Lionel has the bulk figure (approx $60M) of the $100M 3-rail market, it is actually quite easy to conclude that there are a good many folks out there who do not like or cannot afford items of higher detail. And one has to also consider that out of that $100M, in addition to companies offering the higher detail level trains, there is (was) also K-Line, Williams, and now RMT. Even the kings of high detail, Atlas O, have seen the economic light of re-introducing the Industrial Rail line. High end stuff gets all the attention, but I have a strong sense it is the low end stuff that pays the bills. Truth be told, Lionel would go out of business immediately we it not for the majority of buyers like me who likes non-scale, less detailed trains. And again, in accordance with Lionel's own statements of command control usage being at around 25%, and since it is the higher end, more detail locos that come with command control, it would be pretty safe to assume that interest in the more detailed trains hovers at a little more than that figure, taking into account MTH and their recent emphasis towards scale higher end trains. Not to mention that I have heard it directly spoken from those in charge of two train companies that the low end products make the most profit. The high end products make the least amount of profit due to all the excessive engineering and tooling costs, combined with the low production runs due to lack of sales. Recall all those nice scale K-Line locos being blown out at 50% off retail. Any first year economics college student knows that's not a good formula for staying in business, but K-Line had to learn the hard way. So the "level of detail we all love" should more accurately be stated as "the detail level the minority of train buyers love."
"Just dont have the level of detail we all love."
You have to speak for yourself pigseyes... their detail level is absolutely perfect just as is.
And according to Lionel's own published statements, the bulk of their sales are in the starter set area and traditional starter rolling stock/items areas. And given that Lionel has the bulk figure (approx $60M) of the $100M 3-rail market, it is actually quite easy to conclude that there are a good many folks out there who do not like or cannot afford items of higher detail. And one has to also consider that out of that $100M, in addition to companies offering the higher detail level trains, there is (was) also K-Line, Williams, and now RMT. Even the kings of high detail, Atlas O, have seen the economic light of re-introducing the Industrial Rail line. High end stuff gets all the attention, but I have a strong sense it is the low end stuff that pays the bills. Truth be told, Lionel would go out of business immediately we it not for the majority of buyers like me who likes non-scale, less detailed trains.
And again, in accordance with Lionel's own statements of command control usage being at around 25%, and since it is the higher end, more detail locos that come with command control, it would be pretty safe to assume that interest in the more detailed trains hovers at a little more than that figure, taking into account MTH and their recent emphasis towards scale higher end trains.
Not to mention that I have heard it directly spoken from those in charge of two train companies that the low end products make the most profit. The high end products make the least amount of profit due to all the excessive engineering and tooling costs, combined with the low production runs due to lack of sales. Recall all those nice scale K-Line locos being blown out at 50% off retail. Any first year economics college student knows that's not a good formula for staying in business, but K-Line had to learn the hard way.
So the "level of detail we all love" should more accurately be stated as "the detail level the minority of train buyers love."
Lionel's published statements can be interpreted in different ways...
Hmmmm....using the above train of thought (pardon the pun), it would seem most folks would be happy to see a black brick on wheels with some train emblems painted on it rather than a nice detailed Hudson or Berkshire. I'm glad I'm in the minority that craves details Actually, I don't see much "cheap stuff" being produced by MTH. Even their Rail King line is some pretty nice stuff at not really cheap prices. I wonder how many of those folks that initially buy cheap sets and then move up to nicer locos are out there? Lionel's strategy is fairly transparent. Sell inexpensive sets for people (and their kids) who aren't sure they want to get deeply into trains and for those that can't afford or are too impatient to SAVE UP for higher quality trains, and sell the higher end stuff for those (like me) that are into the trains that are high end, or wish to have something better than a cheapy trainset running around their Christmas tree. Makes sense to me. Guess it's all in HOW you interpret the available "published statements".
As to K-Line...seems like Lionel took an active part in their undermining. I wonder why Lionel felt so threatened? And then, when they had no choice but to sell or go under, Lionel scarfed up the remains. Now K-Line is making nothing but cheap crap for Lionel. A shame.
Dr. John, I think they send the catalog to everyone who sends in a warranty card. I have only bought one item direct from them and that was several years ago. I buy most from dealers as they will give you a better price than you can get buying direct.
I think that was a smart marketing move on their part as the LHS has been selling quite a bit of Williams since the catalog came out. I'm told that the bulk of the customers are running conventional.
My Williams catalog arrived today. I'm somewhat surprised as my club membership expired about a month ago. Since they were nice enough to send me their catalog, I guess I'll re-subscribe and order the GM&O boxcar.
Got mine last week. Different from the usual foldouts. I have tons of Williams and have converted several using Digital Dynamics setup. They run forever and pull fantastic. Just dont have the level of detail we all love.
Tim
Thanks Doug,
cordially,
Dino
I got my Williams catalog today........Nice.
mpzpw3- On page two I'm reading, lifetime limited warranty and 30 day money back guarantee.
Stan.
No catalog yet, but then again, it takes on average an extra week for me to get the CTT. Guess the USPS needs another hike in stamp rates. I did get a two page flyer from Williams with some S2s on it.
Dennis
TCA#09-63805
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