Target is now selling Lionel Lines Train sets.

[daan]

There is one problem though, the train set is behind the playstation/ X-cube pages and most kids don't look behind that these days.. It's nice that they put a simple, but good quality set for sale and not some plastic throw away thingy (though a plastig trow away thingy doesn't cost 249 dollars..)

Why do we always have those darn Tyco and Mehano h0 plastic stuff in our toy book each year..

[tex702]

Its about time a local store start carrying trains or components of train sets.  Where I live hobby stores are far and few between.  I do however have a Target Store just down the street from here.  Good going Target.  It seems Target has the hobby stores beat in prices.  I really cant tell what train set it is though.

[traindaddy1]

My two cents: I've seen a number of stores selling train sets around the holidays but very little in the way of expansion sets or extras like more track or accessories for the trains in those sets.  (Come to think of it, the only stores in my area that had "extras", and mostly for HO, have gone out of business, namely: Lionel Kiddie City and KB Toys). I posed the question to a manger at the local "Toys-R-Us" store. He told me that trains are 'seasonal' items and, as such, 'seasonal' items usually do not sell well after the season is over. I guess it is all the way you look at it. Anyway, it is nice to see Target's effort.

[MartyE]

This has actually been discussed at great length on another forum.  It seems most feel this is a good move to expose Lionel and trains to moms and dads that would never enter a LHS to begin with.  Hopefully a precentage of them will seek out more items via the LHS that are not available at target such as expansion packs and track.  The way I look at this it is a win win for the hobby if it works. 

[phillyreading]

I have seen the set on line, looks nice and is a six unit set including the engine & tender, a 40" X 60" oval of Fastrac and a tractor trailer included for about $250.00.                                                          I think it is a good idea for Lionel and others to advertise or sell model trains at Target Stores, have not seen one in the store down here in southeast Florida as yet.

Also could Lionel or others advertise on TV or would this be too expensive?

If not on TV how about sending out flyers in the mail?

The model train industy needs to get a jump start somehow and maybe Lionel is on the right track.

Lee F.

[cnw1995]

Isn't this cool? I like the set - it has real play value - and the visibility at our local Target- it's a big box...

[Roger Bielen]

I checked the box out yesterday and couldn't find a Lionel part number, may be an uncatalogued set. Also, I couldn't find anything like it in the recent catalogues.  It has a Lionel Lines 4-4-2 with four cars, loop of track, transformer, tractor trailer, a floor mat (map), and other goodies.  In our store its in the toy department along with other items in the targeted age group.

[LL675]

Why doesn't Lionel get into the Targets, KMarts, WallMarts? Have TV commercials? Pay extra to be in the front of the store flyers? Most Dept stores barly have HO stuff. And store displays would attratct kids too. Some would be hooked just at the sights and sounds of a running train in the stores.

[Andrew Falconer]

In 2005 and 2004 the Portage, Michigan location of Menard's has sold the Wisconsin Central Train Sets. Both years the Wisconsin Central Train Set was up and running around a tree. The set is a starter set and easy to put together. All of the stores can have an employee or two set up a display.

Andrew

[dwiemer]

Last year, Dillard's had the Polar Express set set up around some village type pieces.  The transformer was on, but the train was not rolling.  When I snuck behind the fence and started her up and blew the whistle several times, a crowd started to gather.  Within minutes, they were sold out of Polar Express sets and subsequently placed another order.  They sold out of those as well.  I relayed this story to Lionel and they responded that is why they require authorized dealers to have a working layout.  I agree that they need to put the effort to have animation to the trains and that this will bring on the sales.  Trouble is, that these retail stores value the floor space and the idea needs to be proven to them.

Dennis

PS: I went back after Christmas and purchased the display for $125.00.  I figure it was my reward for helping them sell.

[Anonymous]

Couldn't agree with dweimer any more!  Saw a bunch of PE sets but nothing running!  Nothing running = no interest!  Run the thing, draw a crowd and sell the heck out of them! (simple idea works everytime!)  Most stores now days won't allow the floor space nor the labor to run a train display. (gotta sell that oxy-clean or any other not available in stores stuff that's available at all stores) Floor space really isn't a problem as I'm sure a 4 x 8 would fit somewhere in a "big box" store.  Labor is another problem when most store managers are regularly threatened with the bottom line....labor is busy restocking shelves not having fun demonstrating how to run a toy train.  My how I remember toy trains at Christmas in the Chicago area in the early 60's.  After that when Lionel went belly up, Christmas was never the same for me.

Funny story, I recently built a 4 x 8 show layout and now everyone in this small town is making plans to see the Christmas layout which is under construction now. It's not even built yet (it will be an L shaped deal using 2 4x8's)  I already have people coming out of the woods (like Cub fans in a winning season) begging to let them help! Not to mention plenty of offers to run the trains!

Yes Virginia, there need to be toy trains (running) at Christmas

 

[MartyE]

Who here would volunteer to setup and run a train at one of the hobby shops or big box retailer so the staff could go about their business.  I know I would.  Probaly some shop rule against it but heck I'll spread the hobby however I could.

[riverrailfan]

Looks uncatalogued to me. There is a magnifer on Targets web sight on the left of the screen to see it better. Menards is also selling the Wisconson central set again which is uncatalogued at $180. I've also seen Menards put it on sale dirt cheap. They also sell track and I thought last year I seen a expansion set for this set to.

[Jumijo]

I was at a train shop last weekend and saw an expansion pack that isn't in the catalog. It was called the Southwest Expansion Pack. Probably for Santa Fe starter sets?


Jim

[dwiemer]

Who here would volunteer to setup and run a train at one of the hobby shops or big box retailer so the staff could go about their business.  I know I would.  Probaly some shop rule against it but heck I'll spread the hobby however I could.

Marty, was a time when Lionel would pay some folks to set up and run trains.  Saw a program in which the Old Man himself would hire kids to run trains at certain toy stores.  In one story JLC had the son of one of his employees run a train at a toy store in NYC and afterwards, gave the kid some money and a train.  I am not suggesting that Lionel would pay some of us, but I would volunteer.  I think that Lionel or the other companies would have to "hire" us in that the stores would need some kind of "official" status for anyone operating these trains.  Perhaps the pay off is that you get to keep the display set when the season is done.

Dennis

[Andrew Falconer]

I was at a train shop last weekend and saw an expansion pack that isn't in the catalog. It was called the Southwest Expansion Pack. Probably for Santa Fe starter sets?


Jim

That Southwestern Expansion Set is in both of the 2006 Catalogs by LIONEL.

[Jumijo]

What page, Andrew? I only see NYC and PRR expansion packs in both catalogs.

[MartyE]

I think it would be a great way of getting more people involved if a set was up and running.  And hope you guys don't take offense to this but I'd much rather chat with folks in person about trains that here on a forum and that would pretty much be what you were doing while running!

[brianel027]

As I've said elsewhere, I think it's great Lionel sets are getting this additional exposure this year. Although this comes with the disclaimer that we all fully realize that operating layouts and displays go much further to the desired end result. Even knowledgable sales help can assist.

Years ago, when I re-entered the hobby, K-Mart was selling a NYC Flyer type starter steam set. I went down to the local K-Mart to get my set. Grabbed one, and a woman with a kid noticed and we started talking. The saleman came out in me, and next thing I knew there was a small crowd of people all listening and then asking me questions themselves.. Right then and there while I was in the store, they sold all their Lionel sets within the time span I was in the store. Granted it was a half dozen sets, and I took one, but still not bad. The store manager noticed what was happening, pulled me aside and thanked me. He thought it would take the course of several weeks to sell the sets... not the course of maybe 45 minutes.

Of course, I am passionate about this part of the hobby, love kids and want to see more trains end up in the hands of kids. I'd much rather spend time talking trains with real kids and their parents, rather than spoiled adults who act like children when it comes to this train hobby and what they demand be made for them. So I can speak honestly and convincingly.

I doubt minimum wage sales help could accomplish the same thing unless they themselves were already bonafide train guys with a desire to see kids back in the hobby.... not likely. Many adults I read comments from on the forums would be dumping on these train sets for not being command control or scale proportioned and would tell people there's no way there could ever have fun with just a simple transformer controled train set.

Kinda sad how many have actually forgotten how they got started in the hobby.

[Jumijo]

Brian,

Lionel is in New York now. Get down there and get a job! They could use someone like you!

Jim

[dwiemer]

Marty, I agree with you on talking to folks in person.  This is about as close as I can get to most as I know of no one within 3 hours drive who is into O gauge, and the HO guys are a bit on the quirky rivit counter side. 

Brian, that is kinda how my experience went.  I think the trains will sell themselves if given the chance.

Jim, the Southwest expansion set is available at our local Hobby Lobby.  With a retail price of $109, and a 40% coupon, it would be a good deal for someone modelling modern O.  Unfortuneately, Hobby Lobby sells the sets at about 150% of MSRP.  I think the only reason the SW expansion set is actual retail is that the price is printed on the box by Lionel.

dennis

[Anonymous]

Just to add something along the lines of what Marty and Brianel have stated about having an enthusiast present to answer questions and ensure that the trains are running. I recall Kenny from Toy Trains Unlimited (they did the Lionel NYC holiday layout) having a really cool "caboose" kiosk at one of the Dallas Malls a few years ago. It was open and featured a couple of starter set loops running around a Christmas tree in a classic Livingroom setting. Stacked all around the kiosk were Lionel and MTH starter sets, as well as add-ons, ready to go. And they were indeed going quickly. Naturally the guys from the shop were there to answer any questions.

[phillyreading]

Went to Target store yesterday in Lantana FL (Lantana Rd. & hwy. 441, West Palm Beach area) and the Lionel train set is in stock for $249.95.  The track is Fastrac & looks like a CW80 transformer or I may have been more tempted to buy the set.  There were three left on the shelf.

Lee F.

[brianel027]

Thanks for the compliment Jaabat. Yeah, I'd be darn (or should I say "dang") good at the task.

There is a liability (as mentioned by Jerry Calabrese himself) to having train guys themselves involved in the business, and that liability is the ability (or more correctly, the inability) to divorce their own wants and desires for the sake of the business. There are an awful lot of guys from the other forum that I wouldn't want at all having anything to do with running a display because they are too steeped in their own biases and would do far more harm than good.

Anyone who thinks command control is necessary to enjoying the hobby is totally unqualified to be promoting this hobby to newcomers with children. As is anyone who feels toy train and 027 products should be discontinued. As is anyone who doesn't have the patience to allow kids to touch their trains without worrying about the kids mucking up the supposed illusion of the "collectibility" of those trains. As is anyone who doesn't feel that new tooling and product development needs to be done on the toy side of the hobby, even if it means curtailing the development of new technology or new scale products.

I'd go as far as to say there are far more important products that should have been introduced before this new Legacy system. And the fact Lionel hasn't advertised in over two years, and has now bought an ad (or Neil Young bought it?) to clear up and defend Legacy could be as much an act of clarification as desparation. Lionel has a lot of money and prestige invested in Legacy, especially with the scale/command segement of the market that tends to be the most vocally critical.

I commend some of this new direction I see Calabrese taking Lionel. I hope he has the determination and courage to continue this direction and to put more into it once the "uncertainty" factor of the lawsuit is resolved, should Lionel be in the position to do this. Ready-Made-Toys has done more to "revolutionize" the hobby in the past couple yiears than the Legacy system is ever going to do, until the Legacy products and locos become the same price level as most other affordable products.

Train sets and affordable products are the real future of Lionel, not Legacy or high end products. If anything on the technological side, Lionel should be putting some effort into a compromised feature, basic beginner low-end type of command system.

[dwiemer]

Went to the Target in Albany, GA, they did not have any Lionel trains.  No one there seem to know what I was talking about.  One problem of living in the "sticks".

Dennis

[FJ and G]

Hey, great news,

BTW, I saw Lionel lamps with a smallish Hudson riding 3-rail track on a Lamp being sold at Lowe's

[Andrew Falconer]

What Target could offer next season is a Christmas Soo Line Steam Set based on the real Christmas Train that is pulled by a Soo Line 2-8-2.

Andrew

[Brutus]

Found this in the Brookstone catalog:

http://www.brookstone.com/store/product.asp?product_code=528638&search_type=search&search_words=lionel&prodtemp=t2&cm_re=Result*R1C1*T

[Andrew Falconer]

Lands' End is still selling a 2005 Lionel Christmas Train Set with Wisconsin Central graphics.

Andrew

[jimhaleyscomet]

I saw the Target set today.  It looks like a fairly decent value.  It has engine, tender, caboose and 3 (not the usual two) cars plus the stake side truck, a play mat and some other stuff.  One of the cars was a crane which I thought was fairly nice.  It was on sale for $225 (Retail $249) plus you get a $25 gift card. 

 

I would say it looked like a fairly decent value.

 

Jim H 

[pbjwilson]

This subject seems to be bouncing around with talk of its small output transformer, catalog boxcar, price, etc. I just think its an odd price point for something at Target. I shop there for bargain prices and $249 is a hefty sum. I would have thought they would have tried to get a set for under $200. Certainly not an impulse buy at $250. I just think anyone thinking of spending that kind of money would be shopping around for a lower price. And Lionel has other sets that are less expensive.

Other than a TV what else sells for over $250 at Target?

I can understand the sets being sold at Lands End or Brookstone, etc. They tie into the Grandparent, traditional holiday thing. But Target? So will we hear......

"Attention Target Shoppers. Todays special, $25 off our Lionel train sets, now just $224.95."

That will be bringing them it by the droves

[Anonymous]

My local Target has two of the sets on display, both in slightly damaged boxes.  I figure I'll keep checking back now and then, especially in the days just before and after Christmas, and see if those sets are still available for the inevitable clearance sale.  There's a good chance they will be, since most astute customers who are spending $200+ for something like this will want it to be perfect in every sense.  If they are available, I'll pick up one for my colleague at work, who has a three-year-old son.

I just ordered an Aristo-Craft starter set today to present to another colleague at work who is retiring at the end of the month.  She has often talked about building a garden railroad after she retires, so I'm going to get her started.  It's fun playing Santa Claus, but I'm not looking forward to the bills coming in during January, especially since I've bought several trains for myself this month and also bought an LGB locomotive for my brother-in-law, who is an LGB collector/operator. 

[Dr. John]

I stopped by the Target in Montgomery today. No Lionel sets there. I couldn't find anyone who knew if they were sold out or never had any.

[Dave Farquhar]

This subject seems to be bouncing around with talk of its small output transformer, catalog boxcar, price, etc. I just think its an odd price point for something at Target. I shop there for bargain prices and $249 is a hefty sum. I would have thought they would have tried to get a set for under $200. Certainly not an impulse buy at $250. I just think anyone thinking of spending that kind of money would be shopping around for a lower price. And Lionel has other sets that are less expensive.

Ah, but there's the thing: the $249 retail price makes it look like a bargain at $225 plus a $25 gift card. And $225 plus a gift card looks like $200 to the buyer, except they have to come back into the store to redeem it (and then they get a chance to sell more stuff, and even if they only spend the $25 on the card, that $25 merchandise didn't cost the company $25 so they still profit). Welcome to merchandising!

The true test is whether these sell, and if they do indeed sell well this year (they seem to be), do they continue to sell next year? I think it's going to be an interesting couple of years. The Polar Express set being the surprise hit a couple of years ago reminded people that the Lionel name is still around, and slowly but surely the company is making itself more visible to the public eye.

I like what I'm seeing. The products they're selling don't interest me, and I don't need another place to buy Lionel (I've got three good hobby shops all less than 15 minutes from my house), but I'm not the target here. Right now the company just needs a good infusion of cash and a few new customers, and if this works, they'll have some money to hopefully solve one or more of their problems.

[brianel027]

Dave, very good points and very well said.

We train guys are not the target audience with this product. We already know where to get our trains. We know about the train mags and the discount mail order places. This is the first time in well over a decade that Lionel has had a nationwide department store presence, and the Lionel set is being shown in the Target sales flyers that come in the Sunday paper... that's advertising Lionel hasn't had in ages. That alone is worth something.

The last time I am aware of that Lionel had product in a store with nationwide locations like Target was in the early 1990's at K-Mart with a version of the NYC flyer set, as I mentioned my experiences with that earlier. Coming on the heals of the success of the Polar Express set, I hope Lionel does well with this set, and hope Target does too.

It is worth noting too, that MTH advertised starter sets at Sears. Yet, not one Sears store I stopped in had the products. Nor had any of the sales help ever heard of MTH. I recall one conversation with a Sears Assistant Manager that is worth a good laugh:

Me: Do you sell MTH electric train sets?

Sears Assistant Mgr: I've never heard of MTH?

Me: They advertise that Sear's carries their train sets?

Sears Assistant Mgr: Are these like wooden Brio trains?

Me: No, they're like Lionel trains...

Sear Assistant Mgr: Oh Lionel! Why didn't you mention that in the first place. I know what Lionel trains are, but we don't have any Lionel trains, but we should. I even had a Lionel train set when I was a kid. Boy that was a great set. It had a steam engine that smoked and... (he continued for a little longer talking about how wonderful LIONEL trains were.)

Too bad I didn't have a video crew with me filming that exchange.

It would have made one heck of a commercial for MTH!!

[Anonymous]

dwiemer,
When I was younger (I'm 35 and still a kid at heart) you couldn't go into a department store without seeing a train layout.  Even if just a simple 4 x 8 with an oval of track and some buildings.  Places valued the train sets because they caught the children's attention and then the parents would stand and watch and remember their youth, walk through the door, not really knowing why, follow the sounds of blowing whistles and chugging engines and the smell of fluid smoke wafting in the air.  They would stand in awe as the trains took on a life of their own, pulling scale tonage up sharp inclines, through cavernous ravines, around sweeping bends and over tall trestle bridges.  They would bend down and pick up a box, set it on the counter, with the look of wild belwilderment still glazing their eyes.  They would pay for the box and take it home.  Take the lost treasure from it's still silent resting place and set it around the base of the tree.  Within moments the nostalgia would return, sounds of blowing whistles and chugging engines and the smell of fluid smoke wafting in the air, as their own toy train chugged unter the tower firs of home.

Today there just aren't enough places willing to devote the space to a simple layout.  It saddens me and makes my heart yearn for the sights and sounds of toy trains.  So I venture down to the local hobby shop and watch as a the sounds of blowing whistles and chugging engines and the smell of fluid smoke waft in the air.  I look around and find a nice little box.  Set it on the counter.  Pay for my treasure and clutch it tightly to my chest as I rush home to watch it whiz by being pulled by that monsterous cast iron 671 engine...

Dagnabit... I'm stuck at work and I yearn for the trains!!!!!

Ah the joys of christmas!

[Anonymous]

Dave,
I'm afraid that if Lionel doesn't soon fix their production and delivery problems they won't be around long enough to benefit from any of this.

By delaying production and delivery of some very in demand items so they can mass produce inexpensive sets to attract new customers, they are pushing long time collectors like me toward other more responsive opperations.

It is frustrating when you see something you really want, layout some $500 - $1,000 and are expecting the items to arrive around October and here it is December and you still haven't received your stuff, you check the shipping schedule at http://www.lionel.com and the items haven't even shipped yet... that is bad, real bad.

Then you get your stuff and the darned thing is broken.  I purchased one of the new NPCL General Engines and when it arrived it had a lose wirenut inside the cab, and didn't smoke, but it did drain the smoke fluid right onto the track!  How lovely!

So if this helps them fix their mess, then yes it will be worth it, but if the inexpensive sets suffer from the problems the more expensive items are suffering from, then this could just end up hurting them even more.

Only time will tell...

regards,
Brent

[anjdevil2]

 

It makes you wonder if Jerry Calabrese is looking at these messages and doing anything about it.  I grew up with Lionel and have only just started lookin at the MTH (I really like the CNJ Camelback). You just gotta wonder if there is anyone listening to the "little people" that drive this hobby.

[pbjwilson]

Brent, very eloquent discription. Where did you grow up that you saw trains in department stores? Heck I'm 47 and and I dont remember seeing trains in department stores as a kid.

Although I bet I saw some slot cars set up. They were all the rage when I was a kid. Trains had faded in popularity.

 

[brianel027]

The problems with delayed deliveries extend well beyond the doors at Lionel. K-Line had the same problem when they were around and MTH most definitely has a major problem with on-time delivery. I'm always reading threads on how excessively late MTH is with products and how they continually alter and extend their delivery dates. New products with the latest up-to-date features tned to be more prone to delays since they are also from new engineering and new tooling. If everyone remembers, there were many delays with the introduction of DCS, as there were delays with the Acela, and the list goes on.

The delays with the Polar Express on the other hand, weren't as much engineering/tolling delays as they were with Lionel under estimating the success they were going to have with this set and not being able to get the production quantities they needed fast enough from the short hop across the Pacific Ocean.

I don't know who is suppose to be the "little guy" in the hobby but to most folks I talk to, the little guy is the toy train, traditional operator. Lionel may make a bulk of their profits from the sales of starter sets and related items, but they are hardly putting much attention towards those customers.

The past decade has been nothing short of a boom to the scale modeler. The train companies have bent over backwards to make items for this segement of the market. Even though the numbers I have seen indicate this is NOT the majority of buyers in the industry... but they do raise their voices the loudest and most frequently. They're the ones who have the time and income to go to YORK two times a year and confront the manufacturer/importer reps.

Somone on this forum spoke with Mike Wolf who said that he understands his typical custumer is in his mid 50's. You can see from the MTH offerings, they have slowly drawn back from starter sets and the semi-scale line of RailKing items. Even Rugged Rails is only there so they can have something to market in that area... very little has been done with that line.

I've said it before and so have others... the adult scale hobbiests have become spoiled and very demanding. The companies cater to them and still it isn't enough. Other than the prior, MTH Railking offerings, not one single modern diesel locomotive has been tooled up in the past couple decades for the 027 modeler. The only new cars for this market are the Lionel Waffle Box Car and the Lionel 11-inch Spine TTUX Cars.... that's it. Two new cars in 25 years. How many new scale items have been tooled up? More than I can count, but from what I read on the forums, still not enough.

Yet, every time I read some statement from a Lionel executive, they always seem to say that starter sets and related products are the number one area of sales.

Little guy? Who is the little guy? I do know that whenever you make some comment wishing for non-scale toy train items on the other forum, you run the risk of being totally ignored or getting trounced on. So if you ask me, the little guy is the 027 toy train enthusiast. Many of whom have said they feel more at home on this forum than on the other one.

And a final thought... when the RMT BEEP first was announced (which is from old renovated tooling) many on the other forum dumped on it immediately. It was only when folks saw that it was a decent little loco for the money and had the capacity to be upgraded did opinions turn around. And notice that this previously unknown company had such a hit with this loco! No surprise to me. 027 guys have been pateintly waiting for a product like this. The BEEP along with the Lionel Dockside Steamer are nice compromises between pleasing both the 027 and the more scale operators and it would be nice to see more products like this in the future.

[Anonymous]

pbjwilson,
Thanks... that was my attempt at recreating the 'Build it... they will come' monologue by James Earl Jones in Field of Dreams... just tailored for Model RR.

I grew up in Florence and Muscleshoals Alabama and Pittsburgh, PA. not all stores had displays but some did and those were the ones I enjoyed going to... My father used to take me to hobby stores too, so maybe that is where alot of the memories come from.  I can still remember the display in the A.B. Charles & Sons Hobby Store in Dormont, PA. loved the cotton plumes of smoke from the burning buildings and the HO trains running on the layout.  Also going to visit friends of neighbors and watching the Lionel Trains under his tree and in his basement.  First guy I remember ever having a repair shop in his house!  Actually his kitchen!   My mother's cousin's Lionel Layout - first ever GG1 I saw in person, that would leave a lasting impression on any young boy!

Maybe I'll even get my father-in-law to head out to the B&O museum in Ellicott City tonight... then head over to the Volunteer Fire Department and take in some nice train gardens... I need to get home and build the command center for the layout and get the 'mountain' built so I can put the tree up, so I can get the village built and then the trains can run!!!!  And I can get pictures taken to share with you all.  Dilemmas dilemmas dilemmas...

[Anonymous]

Brianel wrote:

"The BEEP along with the Lionel Dockside Steamer are nice compromises between pleasing both the 027 and the more scale operators and it would be nice to see more products like this in the future."

I could not agree more! It's just a shame that Walter (RMT) wasn't able to get the new BEEFs and PEEPs out on the streets in this important selling period. It's not his fault, of course, but it is a shame to see those little buggers miss out on this holiday season.  But I expect they'll be available in a rainbow of liveries by this time next year, so there is something to look forward to.

I consider myself one of the "little people" in the hobby, even though the amount of train stuff in my home (let alone my size) wouldn't tend to support that contention.  Any true-to-scale stuff I have, and that's not much, operates on two-rail track because I just can't relate that third rail--no matter how well it is disguised--with scale model trains.  Just a carry-over from having been involved with multiple scales and gauges over the years, I suppose. 

[Jumijo]

I just saw the set being offered at Target. I like it. Has any one else noticed that the 4-4-2 locomotive has some extra detailing added to it? It has wire handrails. A nice touch! You can see this in the photo on the target web site.

 

Target Site 

 

Jim 

[Anonymous]

GRRRR... that isn't a crane car it is a derrick car!

Well at least it comes with a CW-80!  That is a nice feature.  I think this is going to bring a lot more people to the hobby... look for Postwar prices to rise in the coming years as people start sucking up the excess that is out there...

[Jumijo]

GRRRR... that isn't a crane car it is a derrick car!

Well at least it comes with a CW-80!  That is a nice feature.  I think this is going to bring a lot more people to the hobby... look for Postwar prices to rise in the coming years as people start sucking up the excess that is out there...

 

Derrick runs the crane car. He's pretty good at it, too.

 

Jim 

[laz 57]

Seems like it is over priced for a starter set.  I can get a starter set for around $140, at my local train shop in ELIZABETHTOWN, Pa.

laz57

[Jumijo]

Seems like it is over priced for a starter set.  I can get a starter set for around $140, at my local train shop in ELIZABETHTOWN, Pa.

laz57

 

Can't argue with that, Laz. 

[jimhaleyscomet]

Lucky you Laz!  Down in Houston (Lionel "Manufacture List Price" land) the set at Target is nicely priced (was $225 onsale with $25 gift card) and has alot of equipment inside.  I hope it pulls some folks into the hobby that then go to our hobby shops for accessories.   

 

50 target stores with 3 sets each would be 150 sets/families.   I wonder how many sets the Hobby shops sell each Christmas?  I would guess about 30 sets x 4 stores is about 120 sets maximum. 

 

Jim H 

[jimhaleyscomet]

I forgot to add 10 sets per 5 Hobby Lobby store.  That would be another 50 sets.

 

Jim H 

[Anonymous]

Lionel is actually on the ball with this! Nice set. Lots of "play value".

Actually a COMPLETE train set out of the box. (Great for Christmas!)

The transformer is actually a "scaled down" CW-80.  No accessory

posts.  Maybe you might want to upgrade the transformer when you

go buy that extra track and accessories next year.  Hope Lionel will

continue to offer sets like this to retail outlets in the future.  Sometimes

old is new again.  The price, whil a bit stiff, is still competitive especially

since they are selling a COMPLETE outfit.  Maybe Lionel would consider

offering expansion packs to retail stores as well (ala LEGO-type expansion

sets).  You know, track packs, structures kits, etc. 

[RR Redneck]

I'll tell you pardner, I couldn't agree with you more. If Lionel keeps this up, it will definately help get them out of the finacial hole they are in right now. Provided the sets sell.

[Anonymous]

Well, they'll do OK if they can sell a quality product. If it is full

of defects like some of their other things, then they will end up

suffering instead of prospering. Hopefully the new guy will do

a good quality assurance program.  Let's wait and see how it

works this season. 

[RR Redneck]

That is true with almost any American-designed product built over seas. Look at GMC, they are built in Mexico.

[Anonymous]

Wait another week or so, and if any of these sets are still on the shelves at your local Target, I'll bet they'll be offered at a very attractive price--probably around $150 or so, if not better than that.

[Jumijo]

 

What kind of train is it?

Target Train Ad 

[Anonymous]

If you go to the Lionel website you can read an article that Lionel CEO Jerry Calabrese did with O-Gauge Railroading in their June/July 2006 issue.  In the article Mr. Calabrese discusses how he would like to get Lionel sets into large chains like Target and Walmart for the 10 weeks leading up to Christmas so that a broader range of people can be exposed to the wonderful world of model railroading.  His thinking is that if people get hooked by these starter sets, they will search out their local train and hobby stores to further cultivate their interest in the hobby.  I for one think that he is on the right track, no pun intended.

SK

[LS1Heli]

 

I actually specifically drove to a Target to see the set and I was impressed. First thing I noticed is that they are smart and getting the "name" out there again. The tender was labeled Lionel Lines. The transformer on the box said was a Powermax. The box, art and design was attractive.

Considering the hundered of $$ for a video games and all those are high-end gifts out there $249.99 is a steal for all you get.

Using the CPI inflation calculator, this set for $249.99 would have cost around 29.99 in 1949 which would have been your middle of the Lionel 027 set. If its not the CW-80 they complain about it's the price. There is nothing wrong with the price.

[brianel027]

SK and LS1Heli.... you guys both make very good points that have to some small measure been mentioned before by a few.

We seasoned train guys here on this forum are knowledgable of the top 10 Lionel dealers, who are all mail order businesses, take the bulk of Lionel's product, and are able to sell it at substantial discounts. This is something the local smaller Lionel dealer is unable to do. Go to a local shop and chances are that the Lionel PRR Flyer set is being sold a near or at full retail, which he HAS TO DO inorder to make a profit.

We train guys too often take for granted that the prices at Train Express, TrainLand, TrainWorld, JusTrains, Grzyboski's, Island Trains, Charles Roe, Grand Central and the others ARE actual Lionel prices WHEN THEY ARE NOT. They get big discounts based on big volume. And even these places advertise sale prices are for mail order only, not in store prices.

Target is not a Lionel dealer, but obviously has a price point that they wish to sell the set at. They are promoting the set in nationwide advertising outside of the model train media - something that doesn't hardly ever happen. That fact alone should more than justify the price, nevermind that the set is actually pretty decent. Plus as others have mentioned, you could/or can get the set and save $50.

Consider these retail prices (the prices the local Lionel dealer charges... not the mail order joints) and you'll see the Target Lionel set is right on the mark with these others:

Lionel PRR Flyer Set $199.99

Lionel NYC Flyer Set with Trainsounds $274.99

Lionel Thomas the Tank Train Set $169.99

Lionel Cascade Range Logging Train Set $269.99

It's amazing how discussed the Jerry Calabrese interview has been and yet some still do not understand what he said. One guy on the OGR forum was moaning that Lionel would stop making the scale products he wanted inorder to focus on useless toy trains. Calabrese never said that. He said in so many words that Lionel would not be so foolish in the future to make high end products that would end up as blowouts and would more carefully consider what the market can bear. He defended the Acela Project and the Legacy Big Boy, and those are very high end premium products, which obviously Lionel feels/felt they could sell at normal prices, not blowouts.

Mark my words, although I've never talked with Mr. Calabrese personally, Lionel is going to do as much as they can to stop making newly tooled scale products that have to windup as blowouts in order to sell. They will continue to make nice scale products, but buyers will now pay fairly for these newly tooled products, as they should have all along.

This Target Lionel set is right in line with what Calabrese said. It is aimed NOT at folks like US, but folks who don't read the mailorder sale ads in Classic Toy Trains and OGR.... folks that may not even know Lionel trains are still made. In order to grow the market, you have to get OUTSIDE of where the market currently is. That's exactly what this Target set does.

Regardless of what any of us seasoned train guys think, this Target set (provided as mentioned above, that the quality/workmanship is good) is one of the best things Lionel has done in some years. More important than Legacy? YES, absolutely, at least for where the future of the hobby (and Lionel) lies - and that's with new young customers.

[Deputy]

http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=1-5/qid=1166563730/ref=sr_1_5/602-9914397-8977447?ie=UTF8&asin=B000HKP86O

Lionel Trains On Track for Nintendo. Guess Lionel wants to cover ALL bases.

Lionel Trains On Track lets you build your very own train empire in the palm of your hands. Grow virtual cities by creating a train network between towns, develop trade, create cargo chains and matching supply to demand.

The ability to research unlocks a variety of possibilities as you discover new trains, buildings and superstructures that will expand your railway empire and grow the size of your virtual towns and cities.

Features:

Superb simulation/tycoon gameplay that you can carry in your pocket and play whenever they like

Cargo chains allow you to maximise their profits. For example one town produces logs, the next changes logs into lumber and then the final city makes furniture which will fetch a higher price than the raw materials.

Variety of game options - Campaign, Freeplay and Sandbox - offer different challenges and possibilities for you to overcome

Research facility allows you to unlock new, more powerful trains and a variety of buildings and superstructures which will vastly improve their towns and cities

And the reviews so far:

Incomplete game which offers little in return for victory. Choo choo.

I'd expected a simple "train simulator" when I'd purchased this game. Trains starting, brakes screeching and ding ding. Little of those things existed in this "shipment simulator".

In Lionel Trains On Track, you purchase trains, connect cities, decide routes and try to turn a profit. This is done by choosing what supplies trains pick up in one city to fulfill the demands in the next.You can also develop cities, but think of it more as an upgraded depot than a city simulation.

Visuals really lack polish, as does a confusing interface where a lock symbol means "activated" and a dimmed button means "selected. Trains follow tracks inaccurately with what looks like a low budget animation staff. No 3D visuals where used save for the opening screen.

Unless you are absolutely obsessed with the very idea of trains (and shipping steel and wheat at the press of a button) this is a title to stay away from.

------------------------------------------------------

[edited for size]

Train enthusiasts might be impressed by the number of historically authentic engines in the game, and toy-train lovers will likely have a bit of fun building their own virtual rail line. Railroad Tycoon fans and econo-sim enthusiasts may also find some enjoyment in the game, as long as they keep their expectations low. The supply-and-demand system in On Track is a far cry from what I would call sophisticated, but it works.

It should be noted that Lionel Trains On Track shipped as a budget title, and it mostly lives up to what it promises. Although the graphics are shoddy at best and the audio is practically non-existent, there is a decent amount of gameplay here for gamers patient enough to endure the learning curve and hardcore enough to not care about production values. On Track is a nice way to spend an evening or two for twenty bucks, but the majority of gamers will be better off downloading the free version of the original Railroad Tycoon and ordering a pizza instead.

In the game's favor, if you absolutely have to have railroads on the go, this is pretty much your only
option.
----------------------------------------------
Sounds like something that will tear down Lionel's image rather than build it up.

Dep

[csxt30]

 

----------------------------------------------
Sounds like something that will tear down Lionel's image rather than build it up.

Dep

How in the world will that tear down Lionel's image ?

That's a good one ! Now you're taking on the whole Video gaming industry !!

I think Lionel thinks it's some subliminary thing that will get kids or gamers to look at trains. We have a ton of crossover hobbyists now days, that when they have a problem with people in one hobby, they simply quit & go to another hobby ! I know I have !! There are tons of guys out there unselfishly doing things to promote the model train hobby.

Oh well..........  ( 1st. time I ever used that little guy!)

John 

[Deputy]

John: Calm down!!

I didn't mean Lionel licensing a video game would tear down the image. I mean making a BAD game would, though. From the sound of thngs so far this one is a loser. Trust me...the word gets around FAST among video gamers which ones are no fun and which ones are good. I've had computer sims of trains (both Microsoft Train Simulator and TRAINZ...both are good in their own ways) and it's pretty hard to make a good train game for any type of electronic media. There is a computer sim, I think it's called Dispatcher, that simulates switching trains to make them run efficiently, but that's a pretty hard core sim mainly for adults. The Nintendo crowd wouldn't be too keen on that. If Lionel is gonna allow the use of their name, they are gonna have to make sure it's on a QUALITY product that kids will enjoy. That's what I meant.

dep

[csxt30]

Somehow, I know you won't except it, but there are still thousands of people who think LIONEL is GONE !! They don't know it exists yet !!  Lionel knows this !!  Follow me so far ? !! Ha !! 

Ok, you're followimg me, right ? Ok, When people see the name LIONEL, they're going to wonder, like it stays in the back of their minds, bingo, now they see that name again somewhere else, they mention it to some one, bingo again, someone needs a new, different toy or just has some idea where it could come in handy for maybe some little one, or some adult that tells someone they used to have a Lionel train at some time. Kids go through games like water, but the name Lionel will stick to some, no matter how bad the game was.  That's it !!  Let's see how you can tear this one up !! oH, ONE MORE THING !! Companies will use other companies to promote their product if they think it will work. Maybe they're trying something like Jerry C. said !! GET THE NAME LIONEL OUT THERE !! It will benefit other model RR manufacturers too !!  I quit !! 

[Deputy]

John: Contrary to what some might think on this forum...I am NOT anti-Lionel. I would LOVE to see them return to the glory days of the postwar era. I don't think that will ever happen...but I'm not gonna knock anyone's right to dream about it.

My concern, and that's what it is is a concern, is that Lionel isn't being careful about licensing their name. Just SEEING the name isn't gonna be enough, if the people start associating the name with JUNK. Do we REALLY want a crappy video game that nobody likes or will buy to be carrying a banner with Lionel on it? I think not. I don't agree with the theory that ANY public exposure is better than NONE. I think BAD public exposure would give Lionel recognition all right...BAD recognition.

Okay...what should Lionel make to get their name out to the public? Easy...notice how many people wear baseball caps nowadays...EVERYONE...even women. How about Lionel t-shirts in Target and Walmart and other big chains? The only ones I've seen for sale are in specialty stores online. There's about a gazillion things Lionel can put their name on that WOULDN'T tarnish it like a crappy video game would.

Follow me? 

Dep

[MartyE]

I agree the video game is a bad idea but there was a PC version w/ Lionel that was sort of fun but for a game console it would never compete.  I like the idea of Lionel T Shirts and Caps in Target.  They could of had a display with the starter set an Lionel "gear".

[Anonymous]

I think another problem with the video game would be that most kids that play Nintendo, Xbox, or whatever, usually tend to play more action based games with intense graphics. A sim type game that requires more thought targets a more mature, or perhaps "older" gamer. I have both Railroad Tycoon 3 and Sid Meiers Railroads and while fun, they can take some time to learn. My daughter does have fun sitting on my lap watching the trains go all over the place on my monitor, but thats about it.

I do agree that apparel in the department stores would be a good idea; espeically in kids sections. I dont have a son, but when I walk through the childrens clothing sections, the boys dept. is filled with t-shirts and sweatshirts with pictures of cars, trucks, rockets, etc. Why not some shirts with trains on them, along with a Lionel logo? Throw an informational tag on there trying to sell lionel.com for more merchandise and you might have a winning combination.

I think Marty's idea of a running display with the starter set and gear would have been a good one. I'll bet a lot of people purchasing a set, might also be inclined to get their child a conductor hat with a Lionel logo on it, if it was readily available. I know if I were standing there in line buying a train and my kid was nagging me that he/she wanted the conductor hat to wear when playing with it, I would probably buy it just to quiet them down!

[Deputy]

I agree with Marty's idea. But I'd take it one step further. Have a display of the t-shirts and caps. And if you buy the train and a hat or t-shirt, you get a coupon that gives you a rebate on the hat or t-shirt. So if you buy the train, you get the hat or t-shirt for FREE. Well...not really for free. Lionel can add $10 to the price of the trainset and easily recoup the shirt or hat cost. And it will give Lionel the ADDRESSES of potential future buyers so they could send them advertising of future releases and addons. Cripes...why do WE have to come up with these ideas. Doesn't Lionel have any merchandising people on it's staff????

Dep

P.S. I would LOVE to have an orange Lionel t-shirt with the emblem on front. Here's some examples of Lionel t-shirt designs

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/schradersrailroad_1927_29231011

 

 

[Anonymous]

Dep,

Maybe we should all apply for sales/merchandising jobs at Lionel! I've seen many good ideas thrown around in this forum. The only thing I can think of is maybe some of the ideas we've tossed around here are for some reason not cost effective, or perhaps too much legal red tape to go through. Advertising can get expensive. Maybe Lionel and MTH should start focusing more dollars on advertising than lawyer fee's and lawsuits.

Think of the possibilities for MTH for a minute, with their line of NFL products. I am new to the hobby, and until a month or two ago, had no idea these even existed. I am also a Pittsburgh Steelers fan so when I saw the MTH Steelers train set, it intrigued me. Granted, I didnt buy it, but the NFL is a huge entity and there are thousands of fans who are rabid about their teams, and will throw lucrative amounts of money at anything with their favorite teams logo on it.

Last year when the Steelers won the Superbowl, it took about 5 minutes after the game for Sports Illustrated commercials to appear with their books, shirts, etc. Maybe a television commercial is too expensive, but imagine how many orders they might have gotten if all the people across the country watching saw a commercial for a Steelers train, especially in the heated moments right after winning a Superbowl. But how about advertising in the sports magazines? I have a bunch of magazines and newspapers from the playoffs last year, and unless I am missing it, I never saw one ad for any train. Just my opinion but I think they could stand to make a lot of money from sports fans if more were aware of their products. Then there is always the possibility that some of these sports fans would develop more of an interest in the hobby and potentially buy more products as time went on.

Just to add, I'm not trying to start any type of sports debate over whose favorite team is better than whose or whose would sell more, anything like that. I just used the Steelers as an example. I really think MTH has a lot of opportunity there, and a train set with any team from the NFL would probably be a good seller.

[Deputy]

Excellent idea Skullie!!! Here's another one...

Lionel came out with the NASCAR trainsets. NASCAR is one of the biggest if not THE biggest spectator sport in the country. Even Presidents go to Daytona to say "gentleman, start your engines". The merchandise for NASCAR is unbelieveable. There is actually a show on Dish/cable (For Race Fans Only) where all they do is sell NASCAR diecasts and merchandise. The stuff sells out so fast you literally have to have your phone in your hand to get anything. This is especially true of the Dale Earnhardt Sr and Jr items. When they are selling a diecast they spend 15-30 minutes just describing it and they have them on little rotating displays. I swear it's better than a new car showroom!!!

I don't know if Lionel NASCAR stuff has been featured on there or not. But it seems to me to be an IDEAL place to display/sell it as well as the Lionel name and logo. I bought the Tony Stewart addon for my wife for Christmas and she couldn't care LESS about trains. Although that might change with "Smoke's" cars being pulled behind a Mikado

Dep

[Jumijo]

 

Riddle me this, Batman:

Do the Lionel NASCAR sets only run counterclockwise on simple ovals of track?  YEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAA!

[RR Redneck]

I agree the video game is a bad idea but there was a PC version w/ Lionel that was sort of fun but for a game console it would never compete.  I like the idea of Lionel T Shirts and Caps in Target.  They could of had a display with the starter set an Lionel "gear".

You guys are not alone.

[Deputy]

 

Riddle me this, Batman:

Do the Lionel NASCAR sets only run counterclockwise on simple ovals of track?  YEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAA!

I'll let you know when my wife's TS addon arrives.

I think they do add speed to any train they're hopoked up to. More aerodynamic you know
I may have to install a spoiler on my Mikado!!!

Dep

[Anonymous]

 

Riddle me this, Batman:

Do the Lionel NASCAR sets only run counterclockwise on simple ovals of track?  YEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAA!

LOL!!!!!!!! That is one of the best posts I have seen in a long time!!!!

[Anonymous]

Deputy,
One of the best simulation games of all time was Railroad Tycoon, I was hoping Lionel would come out with something related to Railroad Tycoon, but they didn't.

Lionel does not market or develop the game, and that is who the gamers will punish for publishing a poor game, not Lionel.  What this will do, hopefully, is as John said, plant that seed into peoples' minds that Lionel is not dead and you should check them out again.

I was at Lowes buying wood and paint for my command center.  While waiting for the paint to shake the guy behind the counter asked what I was building.  I told him a command center for my Lionel Train Layout.  His response:

'Lionel?  They are still around?'

'Yes, and MTH, one of their main competitors, is Head Quartered right here in Baltimore.'

'No kidding?'

'Yep... and both are producing some really nice stuff... you should check them out... there are LHSs around that could use some more business.'

'Where are they?'

'Downtown - MB Klein, Skyseville, Mt Airy, Ellicott City, Columbia, Rockville, lots of them.'

'WOW!  I think I'm going to go to my parents place and pull out all the old Lionel stuff my brother and I have stored in their basement.  Would be nice to put a small track up under the tree for the kids.'

See that is all it takes.  Whenever and where ever I am I try and bring the hobby up with people in conversation.  When I mention that I am going to be building a train room in the new house with a large layout, most people are very intrigued.  I have friends that can't wait for the train room to get started... forget the rest of the house and the 70" HD DLP TV I am buying... its all about the trains, the trains nothing but the trains!

[Deputy]

lionroar: You are partially right. The hardcore gamers will punish the designers. But the ordinary folks who Lionel is trying to reach and remind that they are still in existence, won't even KNOW about the publisher. They will recognize the old Lionel neame and buy it for that reason. That's what Lionel wants...right? And it's THOSE folks who are probably gonna be peed at Lionel for being stuck with a loser. 

I really liked Microsoft Train Simulator. It really gave the feeling of running a REAL train. The addons made for it are awesome. Too bad Microsoft yanked the rug out on any future development. TRAINZ was a foreign effort from Australia. It was more like a "toy train" layout. It was more user-friendly than MSTS, but it was also less realistic. I never had Railroad Tycoon. I was more interested in running trains than making them into successful business ventures.

Dep

[Jumijo]

 

Riddle me this, Batman:

Do the Lionel NASCAR sets only run counterclockwise on simple ovals of track?  YEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAA!

LOL!!!!!!!! That is one of the best posts I have seen in a long time!!!!

 

Turn left!!! Turn left!!!

 

 

[Anonymous]

Riddle me this, Batman:

Do the Lionel NASCAR sets only run counterclockwise on simple ovals of track?  YEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAA!

LOL!!!!!!!! That is one of the best posts I have seen in a long time!!!!

Turn left!!! Turn left!!!

Oh boy!

'Rubbin's racin'! If you don't like it stay off the track!'

Kinda reminds you of O-27 and Super O track, you could only make curves go one way, if you want to turn the other way you had to take the track apart and switch pins around!

[Anonymous]

Dep,
The thing is you don't see THE Lionel logo anywhere on the packaging... so people may just think Lionel has died out and the publisher is just 'using' the Lionel name... that is what I think most people will 'think'.

Now when they go to their LHS and SEE Lionel stuff, then they may make the 'poor game' association with Lionel, hopefully not.

Hey, maybe this game was published by MTH....

[Deputy]

We shall see I guess. I just think ANYTHING negative about the logo OR the name is NOT needed right now. Lionel is trying to become recognized again and they don't need folks saying things like "geez that LIONEL train game is sure a piece of crap". It puts a negative connotation on the name they don't need.
Then again...maybe if the word gets out to enough potential buyers that the game is junk, it will just disappear from the shelves.

Anyone have any REAL info on how well the Target-Lionel sets are selling? Any of them at bargain basement prices yet?

Dep

[Anonymous]

 Dep - Did you go scanning the web ? Some sites have addons for free downloding . And I got all the updates I could . It is cool and I'm an old man . Use MTS or the full name and throw in addons . Downloaded a bunch of stuff !  

[Deputy]

 Dep - Did you go scanning the web ? Some sites have addons for free downloding . And I got all the updates I could . It is cool and I'm an old man . Use MTS or the full name and throw in addons . Downloaded a bunch of stuff !  

Hobo: I had MSTS a while back. Had just about every download and addon you could get. The downside is it takes up HUGE amounts of your hard drive. I liked the sim and was pretty peed off (along with a lot of other users) when Microsoft cancellel MSTS II. Have you tried uncoupling and coupling with the FRONT coupler? It's a real skill that takes a ton of practice. Other problem was some consists automatically uncoupled in the middle at random times. There's a workaround for it posted on some of the download sites.

Dep

[Anonymous]

This seems like a good idea to me. While I respect Mike Wolf's observation that his average customer is 50 years old, what will MTH do 30 years from now if younger people are not brought into the hobby? Or ten years from now, when there are no persons under 50 who grew up with postwar Lionel, but rather the MPC era only?

Lionel in the past has always used big-store trains to draw customers. My first set, way back in 1973, was one of the MPC Sears sets, engine 8310, which I still have in its original box. One of the few things from that time I have kept, actually. I also remember the sets sold at JC Penney's North Hills store here in Raleigh during the seventies and early eighties. That said, I can tell you that I am pretty much the only under-40 person I know personally who is an O-gauge enthusiast. I don't imagine others my age have a different experience.

These trains seem to be of good quality. I think this does both Lionel and the hobby nothing but good.

My two cents.

[pbjwilson]

This seems like a good idea to me. While I respect Mike Wolf's observation that his average customer is 50 years old, what will MTH do 30 years from now if younger people are not brought into the hobby? Or ten years from now, when there are no persons under 50 who grew up with postwar Lionel, but rather the MPC era only?

Lionel in the past has always used big-store trains to draw customers. My first set, way back in 1973, was one of the MPC Sears sets, engine 8310, which I still have in its original box. One of the few things from that time I have kept, actually. I also remember the sets sold at JC Penney's North Hills store here in Raleigh during the seventies and early eighties. That said, I can tell you that I am pretty much the only under-40 person I know personally who is an O-gauge enthusiast. I don't imagine others my age have a different experience.

These trains seem to be of good quality. I think this does both Lionel and the hobby nothing but good.

My two cents.

MTH sets were being sold at Sears a few years ago. Dont know what happened with that relationship, but I remember quite a few sets on the shelves at my local Sears. I think Sears also tried selling G scale trains about the same time. I think they were Aristo-Craft starter sets, not sure on that though.

[Anonymous]

Dep - I couldnt agree with you more about the Nascar sets, how could they have slipped my mind when I posted. Those fans are just as passionate as NFL fans. In fact my father in law is one of those die hard Dale Earnhardt fans. The man doesnt own anything without a "3" on it. You could put the Earnhardt name on a rock from your yard and he would probably pay $100 for it. I could almost guarantee that he would buy an Earnheardt expansion set now that I have a train set, and say it was "for his granddaughter". Yeah, right . I should show them to him and see his reaction.

But those are just the type of people who would be good advertising targets and will buy things. He also has a Lionel train set from when he was a kid packed away at his parents house that he hasnt touched in years. After coming over to our house and seeing mine, he starting talking about it, saying he should look for it and get it out. So right there, you got your link between Lionel and Nascar, which may bring up childhood memories, and an interest in a hobby long forgotten.

There is also a channel dedicated just to racing, I think it is called Speed Vision, or maybe just Speed Channel, just as the NFL has its own network now. Those networks may command a hefty price for advertising, but what about other televison advertising opportunities? How about the people that are addicted to QVC,HSN and any other home shopping channels? I know some women that will actually set a VCR to record those channels so they dont miss something if they arent home or asleep. Throw a Lionel or MTH special on there, let the hosts do their 15-30 minute sales pitch, and you probably sell a bunch of sets. Just like the sports memorabilia, people pay ludicrous amounts of money for trinkets on these channels. Why not throw some nice quality train sets up there that would make great gifts for someone as opposed to $200 worth of knick knacks that will be boxed up, broken or forgotten in no time.

Lionroar - There are 3 Railroad Tycoon games out there now, the 3rd one is a few years old and supposedly the best. I find it fun. Its too bad Lionel didnt jump on these when they were released, as these were great sellers. The first one can be downloaded for free now. The newest one, Sid Meiers Railroads, has gotten praise for its graphical enhancement, but criticism for toning down parts of game play. Supposedly its just an updted version of the original Railroad Tycoon game. Personally I just play the modes where anything goes and you can build whatever you want. My kid loves seeing 300 trains running all over the place across the screen. And just like the simulators there are hundreds of add on's that people make. More trains, more maps, etc. Obvisouly with a 3 year old the Thomas and Friends add-ons are the most watched.

[Anonymous]

"MTH sets were being sold at Sears a few years ago. Dont know what happened with that relationship, but I remember quite a few sets on the shelves at my local Sears. I think Sears also tried selling G scale trains about the same time. I think they were Aristo-Craft starter sets, not sure on that though."

That is very interesting; I did not know that. Thank you.

 Again, and not to go on and on about this, I think that for the long term health of both companies they have to spend some time on the big end of the funnel. Some of the kids who are distracted from the game boys long enough to develop an interest in the hobby will purchase the high dollar engines of the next half-century.

Most folks in their 50s or older in the hobby now had the benefit of living as kids when Lionel was a true household name in the way PS2 or XBox is today. That is no longer the case, and has not been for quite a few years now IMHO (I could as I often am be wrong).  

[Deputy]

I will probablty get heat for this thought...but I'm pretty used to that

I think Mike Wolf's strategy may be more realistic than most think. What will happen to the train hobby when us old geezers (I'm 57) are dead and buried? Good question. But I think an even BETTER question is what is going to happen to trains in general in the future? They've been bought out and consolidated so fast it makes your head spin. And the actual USEABLE trackage that exists is getting smaller and smaller. Amtrak is constantly being considered for elimination by the Congress. It's very possible that in 30 years there will BE no trains to model. They've been on a constant decline ever since the airplane was invented. With the interstate roadway, trucks haul most of the freight being moved across country. And airplanes take care of the lighter stuff. Trains could easily go the way of the dinosaur. They are well on the way right now.

Dep

 

[Anonymous]

Dep -

I guess I understand your concern, but I do disagree. I dont want to hijack teh thread, as this might be a different subject matter, but while its true maybe trains arent as useful in todays day and age as they used to be, I think they will be around in some capacity, perhaps on a smaller scale, for years to come. A lot of cities still depend on trains for passenger travel. Here in my town I still see a lot of oil tankers for a company nearby. I still think there will be a freight use for trains. Who knows, maybe with the ridiculous cost of oil and gas, maybe steam in some form will make a comeback.

As for the toys, or models, I think they will be around for a very long time. Even if there were no more new trains to model, companies could still make old engines in different varieties. Old car, plane and ship models still sell all the time, yet the actual thing may not be in use any more.

Lets not forget one last thing, getting back to the discussion of advertising. One of the most powerful tools: word of mouth. I dont consider my self a "geezer" as I am only 37, but the "older generation", as well as mine, are the ones who will own these toys/models, and cultivate the interest in our children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, etc.

Lets not forget these children will grow and have friends. Someday I hope to have a wonderful layout, like I have seen from so many of you here in the forums. I can easily see my daughter once she is old enough for school telling some of her little friends "My dad has the coolest train set, want to come and see it?". Hopefully that interest will stay with them. It may not for all, but for some it will. Then in time, our children will become the "old geezers" and pass it on to the next generation, etc.

So I think the hobby is safe for a long time. Heck, no human alive for the past few million years ever saw a live dinosaur, yet annually thousands of dollars are made on dinosaur type toys. Why not trains too?

[brianel027]

Interesting point Deputy. 30 years ago the northeast US railroads were in utter breakdown. Conrail was created to solve the problem. Conrail did what their name implies and consolodated and got in the black decades before they were expected to be out of the red. Today's major railroads are profitable and successful for the most part. There is no better way to ship bulk commodities, raw materials and containers, which the railroads now haul and do well for the most part. 30 years from now, who knows? But I can't see trucks and airplanes hauling bulk materials as well or as safely as the railroads. As you've pointed out in your own train buying Dep, the northeast US is a whole different game from where you are at. Train shows are common and I very often see real deals on postwar trains at yard sales... a couple years ago I was offered a New Haven F3 in what appeared to be darn nice condition for $150 with boxes from someone who was laid off and had emergency medical expenses. That was a deal but I didn't have the $150 as I was laid off too. The economy always affects things. But as the northeast has a long strong history of Lionel trains, it is also so with real trains. And the smaller lines are also finding their niche too. The former Reading Railroad under the current banner of the Reading and Northern now owns nearly as much rail as the original Reading did and is also thriving. Short lines are all over the place here and many have found purpose and profits. The Finger Lakes Railway is another that comes to mind with their NYC lightning striped copied paint scheme. As you sort of say, anything can happen. Outside of the northeast corridor, Amtrak has always had problems. The metro Boston-New York-Washington route has always been Amtrak's bread and butter and still is. The real railroads have had to figure out where their market is and then focus vigorously on that market. Same will happen with the toy train makers. I agree also that MTH appears to be changing their focus. Mike has said he knows his typical customer is older and by looking at their catalogs, we can now see much less emphasis being placed on semi-scale and starter sets. Rugged Rails is there so they can have something on the low non-scale end, but they've done little to expand or grow that line. If Lionel has a "name awareness" problem and Lionel is the much better known name to the general public, one can understand MTH's approach. Just as I understand Lionel's current approach with sets like the Target one. If there is to be change and success, then companies like Lionel have to make the effort first. An effort that has been ignored by Lionel for the past decade. - - - PS I tried to get the paragraphs to break here several times and it won't work. For some reason, everthing runs together despite making edits several times.

[Anonymous]

 Dep to try to answer 2 things in the same thread ... I'm still struggling to get descent with the program . And some statistics I hope will follow through . I have 4 sons and one out of the four loves trains and scratchbuilding . The other three have no interest at all no matter what I do or say. I'm hoping the 25 % factor relates to the hobby in the future . I know it won't but wishful thinking . I hear alot of people not liking stores like target selling lionel and others but think guys many people get into the hobby by first buying a minimal under the tree set. Then they either get hooked or not . I'd like to see a basic  set in every store to get the idea in their minds . You know the old saying "out of sight out of mind " put them at the register with the batteries !  LOL  

[Deputy]

The film clip of people FIGHTING over that new video game system just disgusts me. But unless and until Lionel gets a similar response, they will continue to struggle. Since Lionel is the one putting out the stats on who is buying what of their stuff, we really don't know what the facts are. MTH has already admitted that their main sales are to geezers. And Lionel continues to put out high end locos and high cost advanced items. Some guys insist they do it just to show they can and others say to compete for the same segment as MTH. But if their main sales are the inexpensive toy train sets, it's sure a very seasonal market. Those sets aren't even IN the stores most of the year. So how does Lionel generate money the rest of the season?

Dep

 

[Anonymous]

 I hear alot of people not liking stores like target selling lionel and others but think guys many people get into the hobby by first buying a minimal under the tree set. Then they either get hooked or not . 

Thats exactly what happened to me. I always had somewhat of a fascination when growing up, just never moved forward with the idea. I got my Christmas set, and already bought expansions. I already want more!

[palallin]

For years now, rail capacity has been over-stretched.  The RRs can't keep up with the demand for them, especially in unit-train service, though their adding cars, locos,and even track..  Trucks and highways simply cannot handle what the railroads do.  There aren't enough trucks or roads.  The RRs are hiring frantically.  the trends in fuel prices are only going to support growth for the RRs. 

 They aren't disappearing:  they're growing.

[Deputy]

For years now, rail capacity has been over-stretched.  The RRs can't keep up with the demand for them, especially in unit-train service, though their adding cars, locos,and even track..  Trucks and highways simply cannot handle what the railroads do.  There aren't enough trucks or roads.  The RRs are hiring frantically.  the trends in fuel prices are only going to support growth for the RRs. 

 They aren't disappearing:  they're growing.

Can you sell me a pair of those rose-tinted glasses?

I lived in Chicago for 56 years. I WATCHED the disappearance of not only the major railroads of the East (into Conrail and then Conrail disappeared), but also watched the consolidation of the western and southern railroads. There simply wasn't enough business to support all of them. I watched railroads go out of business left and right. Amtrak is well on the way to going under unless the government (meaning us taxpayers...the government doesn't HAVE any money...it's OUR money) pumps BILLIONS into it. Trackage all across the country has either been ripped up or is lieing dormant. I don't know what area of the planet you are describing...perhaps Europe?...but railroads in the US have been in a steady decline since the 80s. BTW...last time I went to fill up my tank...Diesel cost MORE than any gasoline for sale, INCLUDING Premium. Think about it...what's the FIRST thing a railroad does when it takes over a railroad...it eliminates the trackage that isn't making $$$. Anyone SEEN any NEW railroad track being laid in their area? And I don't mean worn out old track being replaced. Didn't think so.

Dep

[palallin]

Can you sell me a pair of those rose-tinted glasses?

I lived in Chicago for 56 years. I WATCHED the disappearance of not only the major railroads of the East (into Conrail and then Conrail disappeared), but also watched the consolidation of the western and southern railroads. There simply wasn't enough business to support all of them. I watched railroads go out of business left and right. Amtrak is well on the way to going under unless the government (meaning us taxpayers...the government doesn't HAVE any money...it's OUR money) pumps BILLIONS into it. Trackage all across the country has either been ripped up or is lieing dormant. I don't know what area of the planet you are describing...perhaps Europe?...but railroads in the US have been in a steady decline since the 80s. BTW...last time I went to fill up my tank...Diesel cost MORE than any gasoline for sale, INCLUDING Premium. Think about it...what's the FIRST thing a railroad does when it takes over a railroad...it eliminates the trackage that isn't making $$$. Anyone SEEN any NEW railroad track being laid in their area? And I don't mean worn out old track being replaced. Didn't think so.

Dep

 

You persist in universalizing your narrow perspective.  As a matter of fact, I can think of a couple new lines built in the last decade or so, so Chicago and the East aren't the whole world.  I just read a couple of articles the other day on the surge in hiring and the growth in business.  Interestingly, the mail today brought into our campus office a postcard from the UP calling for applications for employment.  They are hurting for labor.  From what I've read elsewhere, they (and the BNSF along with other roads) are planning on hiring tens of thousands of new employees in the next decade, partly to replace retirees, partly to increase capacity. 

Sure diesel fuel is expensive:  that's why trains are so attractive economically.  They use far less than trucks.  Think, yourself!

The over extended capacity of US roads is a fact here on planet Earth:  I can't speak for planet Dep.  You can read about it in the news, in the journals, on the 'net.  Don't expect me to do your research for you.

[Jumijo]

Same story, different day.

Maybe it's time for this thread to get a lockdown too?

[palallin]

Same story, different day.

Maybe it's time for this thread to get a lockdown too?

 

Naw, I'm bowing out.  I don't see any point in getting the thread locked. 

[Jumijo]

Smart man, Palallin. Join the club.

[Deputy]

Drat!!! I took the dang bait again.

I still haven't learned that when certain people speak...NOBODY can disagree.

Dep

[Anonymous]

Drat!!! I took the dang bait again.

I still haven't learned that when certain people speak...NOBODY can disagree.

Dep

Dep, just do a bit of research before posting something like that... The reason train traffic East of the Alleghenies has dwindled is because all of the tunnels through the Appalachians are too short for double-stack intermodal trains.  Congress has just passed legislation to help the railways raise the roof on many, if not all, rail tunnels so they can accomodate double-stack intermodal trains.  The only one that I can remember that is not slated for raising is the CSX Tunnel under Baltimore - that would be nearly impossible to raise, lower maybe.  The first to be raised is on the Norfolk-Southern Line somewhere in West Virginia.

Any how, there have been numerous articles about this all over the web.

It is still cheaper, and faster to haul freight across the US in trains than it is via truck or ocean liner.  Ocean liners have to route through the Panama Canal (which it too narrow for modern intermodal ships), or they have to go all the way around South America... a trip that still takes over a month.

You are free to disagree with people, just do some research to back up what you are saying... especially when it is so easily refuted!

[palallin]

We shall see I guess. I just think ANYTHING negative about the logo OR the name is NOT needed right now. Lionel is trying to become recognized again and they don't need folks saying things like "geez that LIONEL train game is sure a piece of crap". It puts a negative connotation on the name they don't need.

 

FWIW (watch out for falling temperatures), I agree with Dep here.  The gaming crowd will associate the problems they perceive in the game with the Lionel name.  Trains are already seen by too many as being boring.  A low-rent game like this will reinforce that unfortunate image.

[Deputy]

lion:Point taken. My apologies to Palallin. It's just that where I lived (which USED to be known as the rail hub of the USA), the tracks are quickly disappearing (along with all the rail names).

Palallin: Understand my opinion (and that's what it was) was based on my limited experience from my area of the USA. Sorry if I had a distorted viewpoint. I gotta learn to get control of these two fingers. They get me in trouble too easily.

Dep 

[RR Redneck]

Hey dep, things have really picked up at western. Over 175 posts.

[palallin]

Understood; that sort of thing has been known to happen .  Your graciousness is much appreciated.

[Anonymous]

 GEEZER !  Who's a Geezer ? Did you say geezer or gooser DEP ? Yea I look almost exactly like that lil pic to the left --- even wear that type hat . I look good to myself in the mirror without my glasses though ! My hearin's failin --- I've goosed a few women in my time hummmm come to think of it quite a few ----  LOL  

[Buckeye Riveter]

Drat!!! I took the dang bait again.

I still haven't learned that when certain people speak...NOBODY can disagree.

Dep

Dep, just do a bit of research before posting something like that... The reason train traffic East of the Alleghenies has dwindled is because all of the tunnels through the Appalachians are too short for double-stack intermodal trains.  Congress has just passed legislation to help the railways raise the roof on many, if not all, rail tunnels so they can accomodate double-stack intermodal trains.  The only one that I can remember that is not slated for raising is the CSX Tunnel under Baltimore - that would be nearly impossible to raise, lower maybe.  The first to be raised is on the Norfolk-Southern Line somewhere in West Virginia.

Any how, there have been numerous articles about this all over the web.

It is still cheaper, and faster to haul freight across the US in trains than it is via truck or ocean liner.  Ocean liners have to route through the Panama Canal (which it too narrow for modern intermodal ships), or they have to go all the way around South America... a trip that still takes over a month.

You are free to disagree with people, just do some research to back up what you are saying... especially when it is so easily refuted!

Lionroar88, has said some things that I am intimately familiar with since this last summer I was out working in the field on five bridge projects in Ohio that are directly related to the NS Heartland Project.  (Photos for your viewing pleasure are below.) The ORDC has put a little money into the $90,000,000 pot to increase clearances for the Ohio bridges.  

The tunnel clearance problem is in West Virginia. Needless to say, just lowering the floor of a tunnel to increase clearances can cause many other problems including the lowering of adjacent railroad bridge decks that then can affect the hydraulics of a stream.  Track lowering can also require the reconstruction of the rock protection fence, track signal interface. (Some rock fences are designed such that a rock slide that contacts the fence can send the track signals to red.) 

I was told, and you can take this as second hand knowledge, that the longshoreman's strike at Long Beach several years ago diverted many ships to the Port of Norfolk.  For some reason they found that this was a desirable alternative to Long Beach for the Asian market.  The shortest rail route from Norfolk to Chicago is through Columbus, Ohio, but the tunnels and bridges prevented the safe passage of the double stacks.  The line has significant miles of single track and with long coal trains and with containers cars not double stacked, it gets very crowded.  The states, I think led by Virginia went to Congress to get the money to increase the capacity of the NS Heartland Corridor and low and behold I found myself walking the rails across some very big bridges this last summer.

CSX is also in on the action with the containers in Ohio.  The last I heard they are in the preliminary stages of the tunnel study through the eastern mountains.  I might be walking some of their bridges in 2007.  Who knows!?

Of course, a much more interesting project to me is the Midwest High Speed Rail Plan where Ohio is a participant along with Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and New York.  I would say we are 20 years away from seeing high speed in the Midwest.  Remember it is not an engineering problem, but a political-economics problem.  You can download a 13 page executive summary about high speed rail in Ohio at the ORDC website. 

As to research for information about the real thing, AREMA , FRA and the AAR are about as good as you are going to get on the web for free. 

New engine technology, GPS and computers are all changing the future of the railroads.  You ain't seen nothing yet!

(How did I do on my research Lionroar?) Was it too much )

BTW, if you click on the highlighted refernces it should link to the documenation.

 

[Deputy]

Good stuff Buckeye. I LIKE being wrong about this

Dep

[csxt30]

That was really a good post Buckeye !! Also, remote control of locos, eliminating the job of engineer, have been banned in some towns. There were several deaths caused by that when they first started it up. They were also hot on the idea of a 1man crew & no crew at all running trains through the west. Also, that 1st. picture of the bridge looks a lot like my Atlas bridge !! Thanks, John

[Jumijo]

. . . Also, that 1st. picture of the bridge looks a lot like my Atlas bridge !! Thanks, John

 

[Buckeye Riveter]

. . . Also, that 1st. picture of the bridge looks a lot like my Atlas bridge !! Thanks, John

I didn't find that a bit funny... Cute, but not funny.

[fwright]

Living out on the Left Coast, I have seen the main lines struggling to keep up with the growth in traffic. In the meantime, the more rural areas are having rail service disappear. But that's always been the nature of railroading in the U.S. (or most basic businesses for that matter). The nature, locations, and infrastructure of the business change to meet the changing conditions. Those that don't change eventually go bankrupt.

Most of our infrastructure is not planned to last more than 50 years because things will have changed too much by then. Areas where the infrastructure is not replaced in the 50 year time span have the most trouble with change. The old infrastructure won't support the new demands, and the cost to replace has grown too high.

In Oakland and Richmond, the railroad yards are being modified (new track laid, old track removed) on an almost daily basis to meet the changing needs of the port. With the DOD facilities along the waterfront closed down, the port of Oakland has significantly expanded and needed the railroads to expand, too. LA/LB is in crisis operation with I-110 being a gridlock of trucks from ship unloading. If there were a way to expand rail operations to the port, it would be done because of the costs of those trucks sitting in gridlock.

I recently drove to Cheyenne from San Francisco on I-80 which parallels the UP for much of the way. Donner Pass and the other mountain grades in Nevada must be quite an operations bottleneck. East of Ogden, UT the trains were twice as long as in Nevada and California. But the whole route was trains in each direction at what seemed like 40 minute intervals. That's some heavy railroading!

Railroading is definitely changing, but certainly not dying.

Fred W

[Blueberryhill RR]

. . . Also, that 1st. picture of the bridge looks a lot like my Atlas bridge !! Thanks, John

I didn't find that a bit funny... Cute, but not funny.

John,  Take good care of MY ATLAS BRIDGE............I will enjoy it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[csxt30]

. . . Also, that 1st. picture of the bridge looks a lot like my Atlas bridge !! Thanks, John

I didn't find that a bit funny... Cute, but not funny.

John,  Take good care of MY ATLAS BRIDGE............I will enjoy it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You better believe I will !! Got yours all covered up in garbage bags & stored in the garage !! You will have plenty of work when I finally get it to you !! Not everyday you run across a pair of these babies for 25 bucks !! Thanks Mr. Segull !! LOL !! Thanks, John

[Anonymous]

Drat!!! I took the dang bait again.

I still haven't learned that when certain people speak...NOBODY can disagree.

Dep

Dep, just do a bit of research before posting something like that... The reason train traffic East of the Alleghenies has dwindled is because all of the tunnels through the Appalachians are too short for double-stack intermodal trains.  Congress has just passed legislation to help the railways raise the roof on many, if not all, rail tunnels so they can accomodate double-stack intermodal trains.  The only one that I can remember that is not slated for raising is the CSX Tunnel under Baltimore - that would be nearly impossible to raise, lower maybe.  The first to be raised is on the Norfolk-Southern Line somewhere in West Virginia.

Any how, there have been numerous articles about this all over the web.

It is still cheaper, and faster to haul freight across the US in trains than it is via truck or ocean liner.  Ocean liners have to route through the Panama Canal (which it too narrow for modern intermodal ships), or they have to go all the way around South America... a trip that still takes over a month.

You are free to disagree with people, just do some research to back up what you are saying... especially when it is so easily refuted!

Lionroar88, has said some things that I am intimately familiar with since this last summer I was out working in the field on five bridge projects in Ohio that are directly related to the NS Heartland Project.  (Photos for your viewing pleasure are below.) The ORDC has put a little money into the $90,000,000 pot to increase clearances for the Ohio bridges.  

The tunnel clearance problem is in West Virginia. Needless to say, just lowering the floor of a tunnel to increase clearances can cause many other problems including the lowering of adjacent railroad bridge decks that then can affect the hydraulics of a stream.  Track lowering can also require the reconstruction of the rock protection fence, track signal interface. (Some rock fences are designed such that a rock slide that contacts the fence can send the track signals to red.) 

I was told, and you can take this as second hand knowledge, that the longshoreman's strike at Long Beach several years ago diverted many ships to the Port of Norfolk.  For some reason they found that this was a desirable alternative to Long Beach for the Asian market.  The shortest rail route from Norfolk to Chicago is through Columbus, Ohio, but the tunnels and bridges prevented the safe passage of the double stacks.  The line has significant miles of single track and with long coal trains and with containers cars not double stacked, it gets very crowded.  The states, I think led by Virginia went to Congress to get the money to increase the capacity of the NS Heartland Corridor and low and behold I found myself walking the rails across some very big bridges this last summer.

CSX is also in on the action with the containers in Ohio.  The last I heard they are in the preliminary stages of the tunnel study through the eastern mountains.  I might be walking some of their bridges in 2007.  Who knows!?

Of course, a much more interesting project to me is the Midwest High Speed Rail Plan where Ohio is a participant along with Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and New York.  I would say we are 20 years away from seeing high speed in the Midwest.  Remember it is not an engineering problem, but a political-economics problem.  You can download a 13 page executive summary about high speed rail in Ohio at the ORDC website. 

As to research for information about the real thing, AREMA , FRA and the AAR are about as good as you are going to get on the web for free. 

New engine technology, GPS and computers are all changing the future of the railroads.  You ain't seen nothing yet!

(How did I do on my research Lionroar?) Was it too much )

BTW, if you click on the highlighted refernces it should link to the documenation.

 

Thanks Buckeye!  See the Big Ten (eleven) can get a long! :)

What I found really interesting when I heard about the NS Heartland Project was how up in arms people are about this.  They are viewing it as a $90,000,000 subsidy to the RR industry, but they have no proble with $1,000,000,000.00+ subsidies to Big Oil and Coaling Industries.  By upgrading the bridges and tunnels the Fed will be reducing the shipping costs for just about every product.  The truckers don't like it because their services will not be as much demand.  But in the long run, the general populous will be much safer because of reductions in diesel exhaust and trucking accidents.  Diesel RR Engines are cleaner and are more fuel efficient than trucks, even trucks being run with bio-diesel.

[laz 57]

Target has some pretty good Corgi diecast stuff too.

laz57

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure how this topic strayed from Lionel trains at Target to prototype railroad bridges and engineering, but in an effort to steer things back on course, I wonder how many folks have seen those Lionel sets still on Target shelves in these closing days before Christmas.

I haven't had a chance to visit my local Target in the past week or so, but I imagine others here have visited these stores in the frenetic final selling/buying period, so perhaps they can provide some insight. 

[pbjwilson]

The three Target stores near me didnt have them at all. Maybe because there are alot of hobby shops nearby. I asked at one store and the reply was, " We dont have anything like that".

But switching the topic again, the Target stores in my 'hood have toy soldiers made by "Forces of Valor". Really nice toy soldier sets with lots of extras. They also have really nice tanks and halftracks that go along with the sets. They are 1/32 scale.

[sessal]

A few weeks ago my local Target had two sets, stacked on top of one another, on the bottom shelf at the end of the toy aisle. They were turned that you could not see that the box contaioned a train set. (I don't know how many sets the store initially had.)

When I returned to Target this past Wednesday night, I could not find the sets. I was curious to know if they were sold or moved to a different location. Sure enough, they were stacked on the very top shelf, out of the normal line of sight, not in the toy aisle, but the aisle with some DVD players and other electronic gizmos. You would not see the sets if you were not looking for them.

My shopping is done, and I have no intention of returning to Target just to check on the status of the sets, at least until after Christmas.

Lou 

[Deputy]

I'm not sure how this topic strayed from Lionel trains at Target to prototype railroad bridges and engineering, but in an effort to steer things back on course, I wonder how many folks have seen those Lionel sets still on Target shelves in these closing days before Christmas.

I haven't had a chance to visit my local Target in the past week or so, but I imagine others here have visited these stores in the frenetic final selling/buying period, so perhaps they can provide some insight. 

I was wondering the same thing. I have NO Target stores in my small town...just Wallyworld. And no Lionel or any other trains for sale there. I wonder if the stores themselves actually made any effort to put the trains out front were prospective buyers might see them, or concentrated on the latest Nintendo/Playstation displays at the expense of everything else?

Dep

[jimhaleyscomet]

My target store has them on the bottom isle in the toy department.  They are still on the shelves (unless they have been purchased and re stocked).  Too bad they do not have room for a layout.  They would sell more that way.

 

Jim H 

[MartyE]

I have seen them at the store we visit.  There were 4 yesterday with one of them heading out the door.  The same Target has had 2 to none out before so they must be restocking at least at this location.

[Anonymous]

Theres 4 Target stores  near me and Ive been to 2. But I havent seen any train sets. Of course from the sounds of it I might have not looked in the right spot.  I havent asked any of the employees either.

[anjdevil2]

I've been to 2 Target here and have seen nothing!  I might be brave tomorrow, maybe on the 26th....

[ChooChooMan2]

I was in Target last night and saw two sets.  Every time I have gone in there I have seen sets in stock.  Hopefully they are selling well.  When they were on sale a week or two ago they had a display of them on an end cap.

 

Jeff

[brianel027]

Sounds to me if the Lionel sets don't move, it might be as much due to store placement as anything else. Retailers have long known that placement of items is as much a key to selling them as is price.

Something I have seen other companies do with products and that Lionel might consider next time around - in light of a lack of a display layout - is some kind of promotional video/DVD showing the specific product and others in layout settings a beginning buyer might hope to reasonably attain. I know I have been in stores and seen small TV's playing videos promoting some kind of new product.

Since most of us older guys do remember those days of display layouts and know the effect they can have, seems to me some kind of promotional product video might be something of a modern answer to the display layout. Of course, nothing can replace the desire of the retailer. If they don't promote or place the products well, there's probably little that can be done. In the case of Target, at least they did promote the train set in their circular advertising.... something that hasn't happened for Lionel (or anyother major train maker) in many many years. Save for Jeff Cohen's (of K-Line) appearances on the Home Shopping Network promoting K-Line train sets.

[Deputy]

 In the case of Target, at least they did promote the train set in their circular advertising.... something that hasn't happened for Lionel (or anyother major train maker) in many many years. Save for Jeff Cohen's (of K-Line) appearances on the Home Shopping Network promoting K-Line train sets.

We discussed this previously. We all had/have tons of common sense merchandising ideas for Lionel that are obvious to everyone interested in trains BUT Lionel. Things like putting the NASCAR sets and addons on the QVC program that does NASCAR diecasts. I don't know what idjit at Lionel is in charge of advertising, but I would sure put a lump of coal in his sock this year. If Lionel WANTS to sell their stuff, they have to AGGRESSIVELY merchandise it with a PLANNED merchandising program. How many times have we seen that new Wii ad and the ads for all those cartridge games on TV? HUNDREDS of TIMES is the answer. I dunno about everyone else, but anything I didn't send or ask for that I get in the mail, automatically goes in the "junk mail" catagory and heads straight for the garbage. Especially at this time of year. So an ad in the Target flyer would never be seen by me or anyone else that is sick of junk mail.

I think the simple fact is, Target and any other store is gonna advertise and display stuff based on how well it sold LAST YEAR or how big the demand is THIS year. Their bottom line is $$$, not trying to get toy trains into every household in the country. It's up to LIONEL to create the demand among the kids for their product. A few ads in a Target flyer just before Christmas or a quickly forgotten blurb/TV newspot are NOT going to cause any major boost in Lionel sales. Like anything else in the business world, you have to SPEND money to MAKE money.

Dep

 

[Anonymous]

I had seen the sets at Target but wasn't really ready to put out the $249.99 for one. My son is only three right now and I thought it might be a bit too early for him to play with. My daughter is six and would enjoy running the train but both kids together tend to fight over everything.

On a return trip to the store after Christmas they still had 3 sets on the shelf and they were marked down to $174.99. I figured this price was be about as good as I might ever see so I bought a set. I opened it up when I got home just to look it over and was very pleased with the set overall. I've boxed it up for now and stored it away out of sight so it'll be a surprise later. (I really wanted to run it and bring back those memories of the Lionel set I had as a kid but my better judgement took over and I packed it up. I wish I knew what happened to my old set, I can still smell the smoke. Maybe we'll wait just a few months instead of the whole year...)

In the meantime, I can start putting together some additional track and switches for a bigger layout when we set it up for the first time.

Bob

[csxt30]

to the forum Bob !! Congratulations on your purchase & I believe you got a great deal & a nice starter set !! Hope you can locate your old set too, someday !!  Let us know how you like it when you do get it going !!

Thanks, John

[underworld]

Good to see electric trains back in department stores!!!

 

underworld

[mgmlodi]

Will Target repair Lionel trains, or sell StandardO items? When that happens Hobby shop owners may well be in Chapter 11

[Anonymous]

Will Target repair Lionel trains, or sell StandardO items? When that happens Hobby shop owners may well be in Chapter 11

No, of course they won't repair Lionel trains. They don't repair anything. Buy any product at a big box store and one of the things you'll find in the box is a slip of paper that says "Thank you for selecting this _____ product. Please do not return this product to the store.  Call us toll free at _______ or visit our website if service is needed."

And you'll never see Target or any other mass merchandiser sell train items other than starter sets, and perhaps an accessory or two.  They are not geared-up to do that.

The thing that is killing hobby shops is US--the consumer whose primary source of shopping is eBay and "blowouts" or clearances and who, in the next breath, laments the passing of the local hobby shop.  We have met the enemy, and he is us! 

[jimhaleyscomet]

My local hobby shop blows out Lionel sets at 10% off after Christmas.  Sometimes more.  Target is no different.  They are not making the brand cheap for two reasons.  First, their prices points ($250, $200 on sale, and $175 on clearance) are still more than you pay for the basic set at the hobby shop and Hobby Lobby.  It is just that their set is a good value with a few extra goodies but a little less power. 

 I believe the next stop after Target will be locating the closest hobby shop for accessories.

Jim H 

[dwiemer]

Theres 4 Target stores  near me and Ive been to 2. But I havent seen any train sets. Of course from the sounds of it I might have not looked in the right spot.  I havent asked any of the employees either.

I went to a local Target and did not see any sets and I asked an employee, and she had no clue.  I went to another Target and found the last set they had on  a lower shelf in the toy section.  It was not in a easy to spot section at all.  I snatched it up before checking with the bride as I didn't want to lose it.  The price was about $174.  You may have to ask or search hard for the remaining sets.

Dennis

[Anonymous]

last week, in our Target stores, the Lionel set was on 30% clearance for $175.  I had seen posts from others that elsewhere in the country they were down to 50% at $125.  so i decided to wait.  Today, there were still 6 or more on the shelves, but now at the regular price of $250 again.  the worker in the toy section told me that they had gotten a mssg from the "vendor" (Lionel?), to mark them all back up to $250.  not sure if they will ever get back to $175, or lower.  does anyone know more info about this? 

p.s.  It's SABAN Time!

[Deputy]

last week, in our Target stores, the Lionel set was on 30% clearance for $175.  I had seen posts from others that elsewhere in the country they were down to 50% at $125.  so i decided to wait.  Today, there were still 6 or more on the shelves, but now at the regular price of $250 again.  the worker in the toy section told me that they had gotten a mssg from the "vendor" (Lionel?), to mark them all back up to $250.  not sure if they will ever get back to $175, or lower.  does anyone know more info about this? 

p.s.  It's SABAN Time!

Yikes...not sure if Lionel would be the vendor or not. But that doesn't sound like a good idea. Target is NOT going to want to keep them on the shelves now at that price when the season is over and they are trying to clear the shelves of seasonal items. And even if Lionel isn't the vendor, Target isn't going to like getting dictated to like that. They aren't going to be crazy about handling that stuff next year with that kind of attitude.

Dep

[njalb1]

My three local targets indicated that Thier home office raised the price (Target not Lionel) as they decided to sell trains all year long.

[pbjwilson]

There are several on e-bay right now. Most listings include something about a "50 piece set", so if you search on "50" you are bound to find a few.

Heres one;

http://cgi.ebay.com/Electric-Lionel-lines-Train-NIB-50-PC-Die-Cast-Engine-O_W0QQitemZ250070685760QQihZ015QQcategoryZ4148QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[dwiemer]

My three local targets indicated that Thier home office raised the price (Target not Lionel) as they decided to sell trains all year long.

Have to agree with you.  It would be a good thing if they sold year round.  I hope they have a larger selection.  Perhaps they can have some nice K-Line offerings.

Dennis

[Deputy]

I would think, if Target is going to be a regular year-round retailer of Lionel products, that Lionel or Target would have made some kind of announcement to that effect. Haven't heard a peep from either one about it. One or both of these companies is missing the boat if that is true 
I also find it odd that if Target wasn't able to sell the Lionel trainsets during the holiday season when they were advertised and in any kind of demand, that they would decide to keep them as a regular item all year round. Not a very sound business decision. Target as a "hobbyshop" for Lionel products is also a stretch to believe.

Dep

[njalb1]

QUOTE "  Target as a "hobbyshop" for Lionel products is also a stretch to believe "

No one ever said that    I was told that they will continiue to sell trains in thier toy department (store or online) all year long as other TOYS are. Why would an announcement  be needed  ?? Target web continues to sell the 3 sets. Under the Special set it does indicate that it is now available only on line and not in the stores. Maybe some stores will send back thier extras.

 IMO I can't understand why there is always this negative energy. That is one of the reasons that I  stopped posting here before Christmas

After buying the Target set the small flyer inside indicates where (LHS) to buy other items. Target is not trying to be a hobbyshop ? Here is what the outer booklet looks there are items shown inside available at LHS!

[Deputy]

njalb1: Read Dennis' post above. "It would be a good thing if they sold year round.  I hope they have a larger selection.  Perhaps they can have some nice K-Line offerings."

That would indicate Target getting into toy trains pretty heavily. I think, if that were the case, there would be more fanfare than what has existed so far. It's a nice optimistic outlook, but I question whether it will be a reality. Why would an announcement be needed? Because Lionel needs all the publicity they can get if they really want to sell trains as a year-round quantity. The holiday trainsets, from all reports we have heard, were not exactly "flying off the shelves". We didn't hear anything about shortages of Lionel/Target sets or Target desperately trying to resupply the shelves with Lionel products. On the contrary, the Target sets are now being discounted heavily due to lack of sales. I'm sorry if I don't buy into the optimism that others so readily grasp at. Those handouts that were included in the Target trainsets would be more encouraging if TARGET was mentioned somewhere in them.

Dep   
 

[Anonymous]

njalb1: Read Dennis' post above. "It would be a good thing if they sold year round.  I hope they have a larger selection.  Perhaps they can have some nice K-Line offerings."

That would indicate Target getting into toy trains pretty heavily. I think, if that were the case, there would be more fanfare than what has existed so far. It's a nice optimistic outlook, but I question whether it will be a reality. Why would an announcement be needed? Because Lionel needs all the publicity they can get if they really want to sell trains as a year-round quantity. The holiday trainsets, from all reports we have heard, were not exactly "flying off the shelves". We didn't hear anything about shortages of Lionel/Target sets or Target desperately trying to resupply the shelves with Lionel products. On the contrary, the Target sets are now being discounted heavily due to lack of sales. I'm sorry if I don't buy into the optimism that others so readily grasp at. Those handouts that were included in the Target trainsets would be more encouraging if TARGET was mentioned somewhere in them.

Dep   
 

[Deputy]

Sorry lion....but them's the facts

Dep

[njalb1]

Quote" 

 On the contrary, the Target sets are now being discounted heavily due to lack of sales. "

 Not any more ????  They are full retail...........

.

 "Those handouts that were included in the Target trainsets would be more encouraging if TARGET was mentioned somewhere in them"

Why ? Lionel is directing the purchasers after thier inital purchase to thier LHS !! Now that makes sense to me, as Target is not a Hobbystore ???????????

[Deputy]

njalb1: Just because they are forced to advertise them at full retail, doesn't mean they will be SELLING them. They didn't sell during Christmas season, which is prime time for Lionel, so why would people buy them now???? And if they aren't selling them at all, then all those handouts won't be getting into anyone's hands anyway.

Dep

 

 

[njalb1]

njalb1: Just because they are forced to advertise them at full retail, doesn't mean they will be SELLING them. They didn't sell during Christmas season, which is prime time for Lionel, so why would people buy them now???? And if they aren't selling them at all, then all those handouts won't be getting into anyone's hands anyway.

Dep

IMO I can't understand why there is always this negative energy ???

[Anonymous]

njalb1: Just because they are forced to advertise them at full retail, doesn't mean they will be SELLING them. They didn't sell during Christmas season, which is prime time for Lionel, so why would people buy them now???? And if they aren't selling them at all, then all those handouts won't be getting into anyone's hands anyway.

Dep

They did sell well in some markets.

ALL retailers discount items after the holidays.

Target is NOT, thank God!, a HobbyStore, and I don't want them to become one either!  Could you imagine going to Target and asking some 16yo how an engine works?  Or taking an engine into Target to have it fixed?  It would most likely end up lost in their inventory.

[dbaker48]

My neighbor just bought the Lionel set at Target for $124.95, this past weekend.  Went back on Tuesday and they were all marked up to $174.95.   Interesting.....

[Dr. John]

Wow! $124.95 would be a steal for this set! I've heard the $174.95 price in several market areas. I'll make a run to Target this Friday to see if they have the set in stock and if so, for how much. Last time I went they had none in stock.

 

I would be greatly tempted if the price is around the $175.00 mark.  

[Deputy]

Wow! $124.95 would be a steal for this set! I've heard the $174.95 price in several market areas. I'll make a run to Target this Friday to see if they have the set in stock and if so, for how much. Last time I went they had none in stock.

I would be greatly tempted if the price is around the $175.00 mark.  

Exactly right John!!!! Target SHOULD be discounting them right now. Isn't it better to get the trains out into the hands of consumers, rather than trying to get max price for them, which at this time would be pretty hard, if not impossible to do?

Dep

[jonadel]

Dep--

You SHOULD forward your advice onto Target, I'm sure they would appreciate your insightful knowledge on marketing.  Actually, maybe not, I think they are doing OK.

 

Jon 

[Deputy]

Dep--

You SHOULD forward your advice onto Target, I'm sure they would appreciate your insightful knowledge on marketing.  Actually, maybe not, I think they are doing OK.

 

Jon 

Jon: Sarcasm is lost on me Besides, having a bunch of Lionel trains left over on the shelves this far after Christmas is hardly "doing okay".

SOMEONE should get with it at BOTH Lionel and Target if they actually want to get trains in the hands of consumers. We have already posted on other threads about better ways Lionel can advertise. If the common folk can think of this stuff, why can't the geniuses at Lionel's marketing department come up with it???

Dep 

[njalb1]

Dep--

You SHOULD forward your advice onto Target, I'm sure they would appreciate your insightful knowledge on marketing.  Actually, maybe not, I think they are doing OK.

 

Jon 

 

LOL !

 

[mcattardo]

Last week I saw 9 sets @ $174. Yesterday, there were 6 sets @ $249.

[rthomps]

njalb1: Just because they are forced to advertise them at full retail, doesn't mean they will be SELLING them. They didn't sell during Christmas season, which is prime time for Lionel, so why would people buy them now???? And if they aren't selling them at all, then all those handouts won't be getting into anyone's hands anyway.

Dep

 

What I don't understand is how SOME people (DEP, maybe?) are sooooooo knowledgeable about Target's proprietary information.  How is that?

By MANY accounts, the Lionel Target sets did quite well throughout the good ol' USA.  Since the trainsets will be in Target year 'round, I 'spose that's why the prices rose quickly after Christmas.

Once again, I would like to know how the hackers on this board were able to get into Corporate Target's sales information.... 

 

[Bob Keller]

Guys, keep in mind that a handful of train guys have seen a handful of sets at a chain with thousands of locations, and which probably ordered 50,000 or 100,000 sets from Lionel. Finding a fraction of the original buy still on the shelves isn't a negative.

I know that there are some folks who can always be counted on to see the dark lining of that silver cloud, but unless Lionel shipped 75% of their sets with defective locomotives or transformers, this is probably a big win for the hobby and all O gauge manufacturers.

[GregM]

probably ordered 50,000 or 100,000 sets

 

WOW!  No wonder the 1000 sets ordered by Disney haven't sold out.  I would never have dreamed that the order was over 5000 sets myself. 

[Deputy]

RT: No idea what you are talking about as far as Target's proprietary information that I know. But it SOUNDs nice.

I am simply basing my opinions (which is pretty much ALL that you are reading in this thread from EVERYONE) on what is being presented here. "By MANY accounts"...could you be just a BIT more specific on that. Many accounts from WHOM???

What we are hearing on the forum from those that have been keeping an eye on their local Target stores is the sets were NOT selling well at all. Now we see Target attempting to unload them to clear their shelves of Winter stock, and getting opposition from someone (Lionel?) to them selling them at discount. The fact that Target tried to sell them at discount makes it pretty clear that they did not fly off the shelves as the optimists would have one believe.

IF, and that's a pretty big IF, Target did order the number of sets that Bob says they did, that is a considerable investment in Lionel merchandise. One can certainly understand Target trying to get some kind of return on their investment, even if it means selling them for less than full retail. The alternative is storing them until next year and then selling them again. I doubt Target had that as their master plan when they agreed to sell them. Stores like Target, Wallyworld, and K-Mart make their $$$ selling in volume. Note how the Christmas merchandise is ALWAYS on sale at heavy discount after Dec 25th, so they DON'T have to store it all year. Target probably just lumped Lionel with the rest of the Christmas merchandise, and that's why they want to sell it at discount. Is Target selling Lionel trains a silver cloud? Time will tell. It depends on whether Target decides that they made a decent profit. If Target sells Lionel next year, then you can figure the big Target experiment was a success. If not...welll

Dep
 

[Bob Keller]

And since none of us have inside info from the Target Corp., I'll lock this topic down until next year.