I saw the Target set today. It looks like a fairly decent value. It has engine, tender, caboose and 3 (not the usual two) cars plus the stake side truck, a play mat and some other stuff. One of the cars was a crane which I thought was fairly nice. It was on sale for $225 (Retail $249) plus you get a $25 gift card.
I would say it looked like a fairly decent value.
Jim H
This subject seems to be bouncing around with talk of its small output transformer, catalog boxcar, price, etc. I just think its an odd price point for something at Target. I shop there for bargain prices and $249 is a hefty sum. I would have thought they would have tried to get a set for under $200. Certainly not an impulse buy at $250. I just think anyone thinking of spending that kind of money would be shopping around for a lower price. And Lionel has other sets that are less expensive.
Other than a TV what else sells for over $250 at Target?
I can understand the sets being sold at Lands End or Brookstone, etc. They tie into the Grandparent, traditional holiday thing. But Target? So will we hear......
"Attention Target Shoppers. Todays special, $25 off our Lionel train sets, now just $224.95."
That will be bringing them it by the droves
My local Target has two of the sets on display, both in slightly damaged boxes. I figure I'll keep checking back now and then, especially in the days just before and after Christmas, and see if those sets are still available for the inevitable clearance sale. There's a good chance they will be, since most astute customers who are spending $200+ for something like this will want it to be perfect in every sense. If they are available, I'll pick up one for my colleague at work, who has a three-year-old son.
I just ordered an Aristo-Craft starter set today to present to another colleague at work who is retiring at the end of the month. She has often talked about building a garden railroad after she retires, so I'm going to get her started. It's fun playing Santa Claus, but I'm not looking forward to the bills coming in during January, especially since I've bought several trains for myself this month and also bought an LGB locomotive for my brother-in-law, who is an LGB collector/operator.
pbjwilson wrote:This subject seems to be bouncing around with talk of its small output transformer, catalog boxcar, price, etc. I just think its an odd price point for something at Target. I shop there for bargain prices and $249 is a hefty sum. I would have thought they would have tried to get a set for under $200. Certainly not an impulse buy at $250. I just think anyone thinking of spending that kind of money would be shopping around for a lower price. And Lionel has other sets that are less expensive.
Ah, but there's the thing: the $249 retail price makes it look like a bargain at $225 plus a $25 gift card. And $225 plus a gift card looks like $200 to the buyer, except they have to come back into the store to redeem it (and then they get a chance to sell more stuff, and even if they only spend the $25 on the card, that $25 merchandise didn't cost the company $25 so they still profit). Welcome to merchandising!
The true test is whether these sell, and if they do indeed sell well this year (they seem to be), do they continue to sell next year? I think it's going to be an interesting couple of years. The Polar Express set being the surprise hit a couple of years ago reminded people that the Lionel name is still around, and slowly but surely the company is making itself more visible to the public eye.
I like what I'm seeing. The products they're selling don't interest me, and I don't need another place to buy Lionel (I've got three good hobby shops all less than 15 minutes from my house), but I'm not the target here. Right now the company just needs a good infusion of cash and a few new customers, and if this works, they'll have some money to hopefully solve one or more of their problems.
Dave, very good points and very well said.
We train guys are not the target audience with this product. We already know where to get our trains. We know about the train mags and the discount mail order places. This is the first time in well over a decade that Lionel has had a nationwide department store presence, and the Lionel set is being shown in the Target sales flyers that come in the Sunday paper... that's advertising Lionel hasn't had in ages. That alone is worth something.
The last time I am aware of that Lionel had product in a store with nationwide locations like Target was in the early 1990's at K-Mart with a version of the NYC flyer set, as I mentioned my experiences with that earlier. Coming on the heals of the success of the Polar Express set, I hope Lionel does well with this set, and hope Target does too.
It is worth noting too, that MTH advertised starter sets at Sears. Yet, not one Sears store I stopped in had the products. Nor had any of the sales help ever heard of MTH. I recall one conversation with a Sears Assistant Manager that is worth a good laugh:
Me: Do you sell MTH electric train sets?
Sears Assistant Mgr: I've never heard of MTH?
Me: They advertise that Sear's carries their train sets?
Sears Assistant Mgr: Are these like wooden Brio trains?
Me: No, they're like Lionel trains...
Sear Assistant Mgr: Oh Lionel! Why didn't you mention that in the first place. I know what Lionel trains are, but we don't have any Lionel trains, but we should. I even had a Lionel train set when I was a kid. Boy that was a great set. It had a steam engine that smoked and... (he continued for a little longer talking about how wonderful LIONEL trains were.)
Too bad I didn't have a video crew with me filming that exchange.
It would have made one heck of a commercial for MTH!!
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
dwiemer,When I was younger (I'm 35 and still a kid at heart) you couldn't go into a department store without seeing a train layout. Even if just a simple 4 x 8 with an oval of track and some buildings. Places valued the train sets because they caught the children's attention and then the parents would stand and watch and remember their youth, walk through the door, not really knowing why, follow the sounds of blowing whistles and chugging engines and the smell of fluid smoke wafting in the air. They would stand in awe as the trains took on a life of their own, pulling scale tonage up sharp inclines, through cavernous ravines, around sweeping bends and over tall trestle bridges. They would bend down and pick up a box, set it on the counter, with the look of wild belwilderment still glazing their eyes. They would pay for the box and take it home. Take the lost treasure from it's still silent resting place and set it around the base of the tree. Within moments the nostalgia would return, sounds of blowing whistles and chugging engines and the smell of fluid smoke wafting in the air, as their own toy train chugged unter the tower firs of home.
Today there just aren't enough places willing to devote the space to a simple layout. It saddens me and makes my heart yearn for the sights and sounds of toy trains. So I venture down to the local hobby shop and watch as a the sounds of blowing whistles and chugging engines and the smell of fluid smoke waft in the air. I look around and find a nice little box. Set it on the counter. Pay for my treasure and clutch it tightly to my chest as I rush home to watch it whiz by being pulled by that monsterous cast iron 671 engine...
Dagnabit... I'm stuck at work and I yearn for the trains!!!!!Ah the joys of christmas!
Dave,I'm afraid that if Lionel doesn't soon fix their production and delivery problems they won't be around long enough to benefit from any of this.By delaying production and delivery of some very in demand items so they can mass produce inexpensive sets to attract new customers, they are pushing long time collectors like me toward other more responsive opperations.It is frustrating when you see something you really want, layout some $500 - $1,000 and are expecting the items to arrive around October and here it is December and you still haven't received your stuff, you check the shipping schedule at http://www.lionel.com and the items haven't even shipped yet... that is bad, real bad.Then you get your stuff and the darned thing is broken. I purchased one of the new NPCL General Engines and when it arrived it had a lose wirenut inside the cab, and didn't smoke, but it did drain the smoke fluid right onto the track! How lovely!So if this helps them fix their mess, then yes it will be worth it, but if the inexpensive sets suffer from the problems the more expensive items are suffering from, then this could just end up hurting them even more.
Only time will tell...regards,Brent
It makes you wonder if Jerry Calabrese is looking at these messages and doing anything about it. I grew up with Lionel and have only just started lookin at the MTH (I really like the CNJ Camelback). You just gotta wonder if there is anyone listening to the "little people" that drive this hobby.
I am the monster in your head...And I thought you'd learn by now, It seems you haven't yet.I am the venom in your skin --- Breaking Benjamin
Brent, very eloquent discription. Where did you grow up that you saw trains in department stores? Heck I'm 47 and and I dont remember seeing trains in department stores as a kid.
Although I bet I saw some slot cars set up. They were all the rage when I was a kid. Trains had faded in popularity.
The problems with delayed deliveries extend well beyond the doors at Lionel. K-Line had the same problem when they were around and MTH most definitely has a major problem with on-time delivery. I'm always reading threads on how excessively late MTH is with products and how they continually alter and extend their delivery dates. New products with the latest up-to-date features tned to be more prone to delays since they are also from new engineering and new tooling. If everyone remembers, there were many delays with the introduction of DCS, as there were delays with the Acela, and the list goes on.
The delays with the Polar Express on the other hand, weren't as much engineering/tolling delays as they were with Lionel under estimating the success they were going to have with this set and not being able to get the production quantities they needed fast enough from the short hop across the Pacific Ocean.
I don't know who is suppose to be the "little guy" in the hobby but to most folks I talk to, the little guy is the toy train, traditional operator. Lionel may make a bulk of their profits from the sales of starter sets and related items, but they are hardly putting much attention towards those customers.
The past decade has been nothing short of a boom to the scale modeler. The train companies have bent over backwards to make items for this segement of the market. Even though the numbers I have seen indicate this is NOT the majority of buyers in the industry... but they do raise their voices the loudest and most frequently. They're the ones who have the time and income to go to YORK two times a year and confront the manufacturer/importer reps.
Somone on this forum spoke with Mike Wolf who said that he understands his typical custumer is in his mid 50's. You can see from the MTH offerings, they have slowly drawn back from starter sets and the semi-scale line of RailKing items. Even Rugged Rails is only there so they can have something to market in that area... very little has been done with that line.
I've said it before and so have others... the adult scale hobbiests have become spoiled and very demanding. The companies cater to them and still it isn't enough. Other than the prior, MTH Railking offerings, not one single modern diesel locomotive has been tooled up in the past couple decades for the 027 modeler. The only new cars for this market are the Lionel Waffle Box Car and the Lionel 11-inch Spine TTUX Cars.... that's it. Two new cars in 25 years. How many new scale items have been tooled up? More than I can count, but from what I read on the forums, still not enough.
Yet, every time I read some statement from a Lionel executive, they always seem to say that starter sets and related products are the number one area of sales.
Little guy? Who is the little guy? I do know that whenever you make some comment wishing for non-scale toy train items on the other forum, you run the risk of being totally ignored or getting trounced on. So if you ask me, the little guy is the 027 toy train enthusiast. Many of whom have said they feel more at home on this forum than on the other one.
And a final thought... when the RMT BEEP first was announced (which is from old renovated tooling) many on the other forum dumped on it immediately. It was only when folks saw that it was a decent little loco for the money and had the capacity to be upgraded did opinions turn around. And notice that this previously unknown company had such a hit with this loco! No surprise to me. 027 guys have been pateintly waiting for a product like this. The BEEP along with the Lionel Dockside Steamer are nice compromises between pleasing both the 027 and the more scale operators and it would be nice to see more products like this in the future.
pbjwilson,Thanks... that was my attempt at recreating the 'Build it... they will come' monologue by James Earl Jones in Field of Dreams... just tailored for Model RR. I grew up in Florence and Muscleshoals Alabama and Pittsburgh, PA. not all stores had displays but some did and those were the ones I enjoyed going to... My father used to take me to hobby stores too, so maybe that is where alot of the memories come from. I can still remember the display in the A.B. Charles & Sons Hobby Store in Dormont, PA. loved the cotton plumes of smoke from the burning buildings and the HO trains running on the layout. Also going to visit friends of neighbors and watching the Lionel Trains under his tree and in his basement. First guy I remember ever having a repair shop in his house! Actually his kitchen! My mother's cousin's Lionel Layout - first ever GG1 I saw in person, that would leave a lasting impression on any young boy!Maybe I'll even get my father-in-law to head out to the B&O museum in Ellicott City tonight... then head over to the Volunteer Fire Department and take in some nice train gardens... I need to get home and build the command center for the layout and get the 'mountain' built so I can put the tree up, so I can get the village built and then the trains can run!!!! And I can get pictures taken to share with you all. Dilemmas dilemmas dilemmas...
Brianel wrote:
"The BEEP along with the Lionel Dockside Steamer are nice compromises between pleasing both the 027 and the more scale operators and it would be nice to see more products like this in the future."
I could not agree more! It's just a shame that Walter (RMT) wasn't able to get the new BEEFs and PEEPs out on the streets in this important selling period. It's not his fault, of course, but it is a shame to see those little buggers miss out on this holiday season. But I expect they'll be available in a rainbow of liveries by this time next year, so there is something to look forward to.
I consider myself one of the "little people" in the hobby, even though the amount of train stuff in my home (let alone my size) wouldn't tend to support that contention. Any true-to-scale stuff I have, and that's not much, operates on two-rail track because I just can't relate that third rail--no matter how well it is disguised--with scale model trains. Just a carry-over from having been involved with multiple scales and gauges over the years, I suppose.
I just saw the set being offered at Target. I like it. Has any one else noticed that the 4-4-2 locomotive has some extra detailing added to it? It has wire handrails. A nice touch! You can see this in the photo on the target web site.
Target Site
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
GRRRR... that isn't a crane car it is a derrick car!
Well at least it comes with a CW-80! That is a nice feature. I think this is going to bring a lot more people to the hobby... look for Postwar prices to rise in the coming years as people start sucking up the excess that is out there...
lionroar88 wrote:GRRRR... that isn't a crane car it is a derrick car! Well at least it comes with a CW-80! That is a nice feature. I think this is going to bring a lot more people to the hobby... look for Postwar prices to rise in the coming years as people start sucking up the excess that is out there...
Derrick runs the crane car. He's pretty good at it, too.
Seems like it is over priced for a starter set. I can get a starter set for around $140, at my local train shop in ELIZABETHTOWN, Pa.
laz57
laz 57 wrote:Seems like it is over priced for a starter set. I can get a starter set for around $140, at my local train shop in ELIZABETHTOWN, Pa.laz57
Can't argue with that, Laz.
Lucky you Laz! Down in Houston (Lionel "Manufacture List Price" land) the set at Target is nicely priced (was $225 onsale with $25 gift card) and has alot of equipment inside. I hope it pulls some folks into the hobby that then go to our hobby shops for accessories.
50 target stores with 3 sets each would be 150 sets/families. I wonder how many sets the Hobby shops sell each Christmas? I would guess about 30 sets x 4 stores is about 120 sets maximum.
I forgot to add 10 sets per 5 Hobby Lobby store. That would be another 50 sets.
Lionel is actually on the ball with this! Nice set. Lots of "play value".
Actually a COMPLETE train set out of the box. (Great for Christmas!)
The transformer is actually a "scaled down" CW-80. No accessory
posts. Maybe you might want to upgrade the transformer when you
go buy that extra track and accessories next year. Hope Lionel will
continue to offer sets like this to retail outlets in the future. Sometimes
old is new again. The price, whil a bit stiff, is still competitive especially
since they are selling a COMPLETE outfit. Maybe Lionel would consider
offering expansion packs to retail stores as well (ala LEGO-type expansion
sets). You know, track packs, structures kits, etc.
Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
Well, they'll do OK if they can sell a quality product. If it is full
of defects like some of their other things, then they will end up
suffering instead of prospering. Hopefully the new guy will do
a good quality assurance program. Let's wait and see how it
works this season.
What kind of train is it?
Target Train Ad
If you go to the Lionel website you can read an article that Lionel CEO Jerry Calabrese did with O-Gauge Railroading in their June/July 2006 issue. In the article Mr. Calabrese discusses how he would like to get Lionel sets into large chains like Target and Walmart for the 10 weeks leading up to Christmas so that a broader range of people can be exposed to the wonderful world of model railroading. His thinking is that if people get hooked by these starter sets, they will search out their local train and hobby stores to further cultivate their interest in the hobby. I for one think that he is on the right track, no pun intended.
SK
I actually specifically drove to a Target to see the set and I was impressed. First thing I noticed is that they are smart and getting the "name" out there again. The tender was labeled Lionel Lines. The transformer on the box said was a Powermax. The box, art and design was attractive.
Considering the hundered of $$ for a video games and all those are high-end gifts out there $249.99 is a steal for all you get.
Using the CPI inflation calculator, this set for $249.99 would have cost around 29.99 in 1949 which would have been your middle of the Lionel 027 set. If its not the CW-80 they complain about it's the price. There is nothing wrong with the price.
SK and LS1Heli.... you guys both make very good points that have to some small measure been mentioned before by a few.
We seasoned train guys here on this forum are knowledgable of the top 10 Lionel dealers, who are all mail order businesses, take the bulk of Lionel's product, and are able to sell it at substantial discounts. This is something the local smaller Lionel dealer is unable to do. Go to a local shop and chances are that the Lionel PRR Flyer set is being sold a near or at full retail, which he HAS TO DO inorder to make a profit.
We train guys too often take for granted that the prices at Train Express, TrainLand, TrainWorld, JusTrains, Grzyboski's, Island Trains, Charles Roe, Grand Central and the others ARE actual Lionel prices WHEN THEY ARE NOT. They get big discounts based on big volume. And even these places advertise sale prices are for mail order only, not in store prices.
Target is not a Lionel dealer, but obviously has a price point that they wish to sell the set at. They are promoting the set in nationwide advertising outside of the model train media - something that doesn't hardly ever happen. That fact alone should more than justify the price, nevermind that the set is actually pretty decent. Plus as others have mentioned, you could/or can get the set and save $50.
Consider these retail prices (the prices the local Lionel dealer charges... not the mail order joints) and you'll see the Target Lionel set is right on the mark with these others:
Lionel PRR Flyer Set $199.99
Lionel NYC Flyer Set with Trainsounds $274.99
Lionel Thomas the Tank Train Set $169.99
Lionel Cascade Range Logging Train Set $269.99
It's amazing how discussed the Jerry Calabrese interview has been and yet some still do not understand what he said. One guy on the OGR forum was moaning that Lionel would stop making the scale products he wanted inorder to focus on useless toy trains. Calabrese never said that. He said in so many words that Lionel would not be so foolish in the future to make high end products that would end up as blowouts and would more carefully consider what the market can bear. He defended the Acela Project and the Legacy Big Boy, and those are very high end premium products, which obviously Lionel feels/felt they could sell at normal prices, not blowouts.
Mark my words, although I've never talked with Mr. Calabrese personally, Lionel is going to do as much as they can to stop making newly tooled scale products that have to windup as blowouts in order to sell. They will continue to make nice scale products, but buyers will now pay fairly for these newly tooled products, as they should have all along.
This Target Lionel set is right in line with what Calabrese said. It is aimed NOT at folks like US, but folks who don't read the mailorder sale ads in Classic Toy Trains and OGR.... folks that may not even know Lionel trains are still made. In order to grow the market, you have to get OUTSIDE of where the market currently is. That's exactly what this Target set does.
Regardless of what any of us seasoned train guys think, this Target set (provided as mentioned above, that the quality/workmanship is good) is one of the best things Lionel has done in some years. More important than Legacy? YES, absolutely, at least for where the future of the hobby (and Lionel) lies - and that's with new young customers.
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/sr=1-5/qid=1166563730/ref=sr_1_5/602-9914397-8977447?ie=UTF8&asin=B000HKP86O
Lionel Trains On Track for Nintendo. Guess Lionel wants to cover ALL bases.
Lionel Trains On Track lets you build your very own train empire in the palm of your hands. Grow virtual cities by creating a train network between towns, develop trade, create cargo chains and matching supply to demand. The ability to research unlocks a variety of possibilities as you discover new trains, buildings and superstructures that will expand your railway empire and grow the size of your virtual towns and cities.Features:
And the reviews so far:
Incomplete game which offers little in return for victory. Choo choo.I'd expected a simple "train simulator" when I'd purchased this game. Trains starting, brakes screeching and ding ding. Little of those things existed in this "shipment simulator".In Lionel Trains On Track, you purchase trains, connect cities, decide routes and try to turn a profit. This is done by choosing what supplies trains pick up in one city to fulfill the demands in the next.You can also develop cities, but think of it more as an upgraded depot than a city simulation.Visuals really lack polish, as does a confusing interface where a lock symbol means "activated" and a dimmed button means "selected. Trains follow tracks inaccurately with what looks like a low budget animation staff. No 3D visuals where used save for the opening screen.Unless you are absolutely obsessed with the very idea of trains (and shipping steel and wheat at the press of a button) this is a title to stay away from.
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[edited for size]
Train enthusiasts might be impressed by the number of historically authentic engines in the game, and toy-train lovers will likely have a bit of fun building their own virtual rail line. Railroad Tycoon fans and econo-sim enthusiasts may also find some enjoyment in the game, as long as they keep their expectations low. The supply-and-demand system in On Track is a far cry from what I would call sophisticated, but it works.It should be noted that Lionel Trains On Track shipped as a budget title, and it mostly lives up to what it promises. Although the graphics are shoddy at best and the audio is practically non-existent, there is a decent amount of gameplay here for gamers patient enough to endure the learning curve and hardcore enough to not care about production values. On Track is a nice way to spend an evening or two for twenty bucks, but the majority of gamers will be better off downloading the free version of the original Railroad Tycoon and ordering a pizza instead.In the game's favor, if you absolutely have to have railroads on the go, this is pretty much your only option. ----------------------------------------------Sounds like something that will tear down Lionel's image rather than build it up.
Dep
Virginian Railroad
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