I'm just a 9-5 guy

[DennisB-1]

Check out Dave Jacob's layout in the December CTT for a small layout with outstanding detail. His  layout is only 10' x 6'.

[voodoothom]

Just a thought. I recently watched tracks ahead on PBS. and lo an behold there she was my Alco PA. in Sanat FE warbonnet colors for American Flyer. Anybody out there had one or has one running?

[hopper]

I'm glad to see that I'm in such good company here,& seeing what you guys can do in a small space. I get a lot of action with my layout also.I have a staging area,some smal switching facilities & can run trains all day on a loop. Thanks to all. Hopper

[paulcap]

Hopper, My layout is a little different. Two 30inch wide X 6ft. banquet tables end to end. O27 fits perfectly. good luck. paulcap

[daan]

Count me in to the smaller layout operators. About 10x6 feet.. What I think is a shame is that a few years ago, MTH was offering full sound and full operatable protosound 1 locomotives. Everything works flawless. Now they have protosound 2 and couplers and special effects can only be used with a special controller, which you have to buy extra. Why not keep the simple, but also good working protosound 1 next to the proto 2 engines? Would they sell any proto 2 engines?

I enjoy watching the big layouts in CTT, but I doubt that I would have the patience to complete such a layout.. Just a layout which is big enough to drive and switch a little but small enough to complete in a normal period of time is good enough for me..

[voodoothom]

I'm  also a small layout operator. Just the standard 1950's 4x8 on trestle tables. It's really for the kids toexplore their imaginations and develop visual and fine motor skills building ever changeing scenery. I want to pass on what we kids of the fifties had to work with. With kids rangeing from 8 to 27 I  passed along  a passel of appreciation and interest to the next couple of generations.

[Deputy]

Back in the 80's (yes, I can still remember back that far) I had a 5X9 on a ping-pong table. Worked great. I now have a large room at my disposal and plan on a larger (not gigantic) layout. I'd sure like to run the bigger locos that require the 072 curves, and that is what I'm planning on. But even with that, I don't see it as a gigantic layout. Actually, this Christmas (I refuse to call it "this Holiday Season") I will have a 4X8 with a Christmas tree right smack in the middle of it. That's the way I had it as a kid. After Christmas I'll use that 4X8 along with maybe 3-4 more sheets that size to build the bigger layout. Heck, I'm 57 and probably don't have many more years on this planet. So I can't really start something that takes 20 years to complete

Dep

[Birds]

I am in the process of downsizing my layout a bit.  It will be 6 1/2 feet  x 12 feet (the size of four hollow core doors).  It is close to the original envisioned size, but I am eliminating the leg of an "L".  I am moving to a simplified track design with less track and fewer switches than originally envisioned.  The resized layout will still allow for multi train operation, and it will have a small switch yard.

I run conventional, and with this size I can get by with a KW for the trains and a small starter set transformer for the switches.

I found that I liked running shorter trains and trains in the O-27 and Traditional O sizes.

Enjoy,
Chris

[jwse30]

I currently only have a starter set loop (from the Thomas set) of Fastrack on the carpeting. My last layout was 2 sheets of plywood in an L shape. I later added a 1' x 12' elevated shelf to run a trolley back and forth on. I saved the 2 tabletops, and hopefully by Thanksgiving I'll have them set up in my new basement with a 3 x 4 section connecting them to make a U shaped layout. 

This layout may be the one that I buy a Cab-1 remote for,so I can walk around the layout. I'm leaving a minimum of 30" (if I remember right) from the edge of the benchwork to the wall all the way around the layout, so the remote control(s) might make it more fun to let 'em run and watch from from different places. Since I only have one command controlled engine (most of my engines are postwar era), I'll be using the conventional modules (don't recall their name)

When this layout gets built, it will be my largest one to date. By memory, I've had a 5 x 9 (I think,  it seemed huge when I was 5 to 10 years old), a 4 x 8, another 4 x 8, a 3 by 6, and the 8x12 L.  One of the 4 x 8s and the 3 x 6 didn't even have paint on the plywood. They were very temporary to say the least.

Regarding Brianel's opinion that too much is being spent by the mftr's on the high end stuff,  I'll tend to agree.  Look how successful Lionel's Docksider is (and K-Line's Plymouth, and RMT's Beep et al), and don't get me started about the K-Line O-27 switches. However, this stuff just doesn't generate the hype needed to make your name stand out. I don't watch much TV, so this remark may blow up in my face, but when was the last time you saw a commercial for a Ford Focus? When was the last time you saw an ad for a Ford 500 or Explorer?  I'd guess (purely a guess, I'll add), that the Focus outsells the other two by quite a bit. But they spend money advertising the higher end products. I'm no marketing genius,  but if I was thinking of buying an economical car, and saw an ad for a Ford 500, and then saw an ad for a Chevy Aveo, I'd likely go to  the  Ford dealer  first.  (I'm  a Dodge guy,  so all  this it hypothetical  :)  )  So, back to trains; I think the mftrs need to have a few ace engines in their lineup every year, and possibly a few "me too" ace engines as well,  but not thirty pages of their catalogs filled with $1k or better offerings.

Just my 2 cents,

J White

[spankybird]

Even thou we have two layouts, one is 5' x 8' circus layout

be sure to click on the pics to enlarge them

 

[Anonymous]

I was a 9 to 5 guy until I retired. I had an addition built to house my dream layout,L shaped sized modestly about 10X35. I needed this much room to house all the train items I acquired over the years. I started building this 2 years ago and am still not finished. I see nothing wrong with layouts big or small,both promote the hobby and inspire inguinity. In fact smaller layouts inspire creative ideas of using space efficiently,and it is great getting ideas from what others have built. I hope to have the trains running by next April as trains are a good winter project.

I run conventional,not because I am afraid of technology,electronics is a hobby of mine. I run conventional because unlike TMCC or DCS it is easily automated with relays and timers. I will have 7 loops of trains and 2 trolley lines. My goal was to make them come and go,appear and disappear,stop at stations ect just like real trains at infrequent intervals. Each loop will have 2 or 3 trains. This involves using over 100 relays and timers. I will also have a loop which is not automated run off the transformer throttle to unilize the various trackside accessories.

I have nothing against technology in trains. I think the drawback has been poor quality and failure of the companies to impliment the technology where it is reliable to the same degree as other electronic products such as TVs and microwave ovens.
I have spent countless hours fixing engines and accessories new out of the box that were not assembled correctly or had defects mostly electronic in nature.

I like sound systems in engines. I prefer Railsounds to PS2 hands down. First the sound itself has better fidelity. Second the Railsounds PC board are component systems which are easier to repair and troubleshoot. PS2 boards are not practicle to fix and if something goes wrong you have to replace the whole board at a cost of around $200. Again,there is nothing wrong with the technology itself,it is the way it is implimented.

Dale Hz

[Brutus]

Okay - my current layout under construction is about 44 inches by 96 inches and has a dogbone inside a simple loop.  I'll post a pic Sunday of the track so far.  This is plenty big for our living room right now.  Last year I had a simple loop and then a loop inside a loop.  Once I can make a more permanent layout in the basement (hopefully this time next year) I'd like to upgrade to a low-end TMCC locomotive, maybe the recent Lionel Lines Berk with personlized logo since I'm dreaming.  I really am looking forward to being able to run TMCC, but it's not on the radar this year and maybe not next year.  I hope to have about 3 ft by 16 ft and maybe a bump out at one end of 6  by 4???  Have to see how I can work it in.

Thanks for all the intersting posts above guys - I've only been back into trains for about 2.5 years and the first year I was playing with some HO until I realized that I really liked O best.  Anyway, I'm still catching on to a lot of this stuff and really appreciate all the insight of you guys who have been around this stuff longer.

[cmrj]

Hi guy's , TMCC  is so simple that my 5 year old run's train's with it . As far as not selling ,some of the guy's are unaware of  how  it work's , 2 guy's I know after they got a chance to play with it. Went out and bought a comand set. At first it can be a little over whelming to some ,but once they push a few button's and find out how easy it is to operate. Then it's  I get me one these.
 I just run trains on the floor in the basement at this time.
         Mike

[csxt30]

Jon : the second one should be, [/img] like that . 

Thanks, John

[Kooljock1]

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6dd24b3127cce97d90d3bc62d00000016100Qct2Tho0Yse" border="0" />

Okay, now on the above link there's a [, then img, then ], then the copied address from Shutterfly, followed by a [, then img, a /, then another ]. This used to work, but no more!

Jon

[Kooljock1]

Thanks Jim! For some reason my links to Shutterfly worked great for months, and then just stopped working! Probably an up-date to my OS changed something, but when I type in the [ ] with the img in the middle, it doesn't create a bracket, but rather those little pointy things.

I am SUCH a computer wizard!

Jon

[Brutus]

See if this works based on Kooljock1's links:

 

Looks like a great layout!

[Anonymous]

Brianel,
So, in your opinion, what needs to happen (besides Neil stepping down of course)? No more development of high end product? Just re-use existing tooling for low end product to cut costs? Do you really think that Lionel, or any other mfg, is going to pass that savings onto the consumer? Maybe I'm just ADD but in all of that reading I don't know if I see any real suggestions for whatever it is that's concerning you.
If you're happy with the 1033 that's great. Nobody is forcing a remote into your hand. If you want conventional motive power, Lionel still offers quite a bit and Williams is still pumping it out as usual. However, I don't think their pricing is much better than the entry level Lionel stuff and yet they've never had to absorb high development costs of a command control system or detailed tooling.

[Dr. John]

All of my recent layouts have been on the small size: a 5x9 O-27 layout that lasted two years and a 6x6 Christmas layout last year. Current plans are for a small Christmas layout on a 3x7 hollow core door, then work to begin on a new incarnation of the 5x9 O-27 layout.

[hopper]

brianel,agent 027,I don't know where you come up with all that info,but that's great stuff! about the 1033's. Ive got 2 of those,and I am able to run those starter set engines at a crawl. No jackrabit starts there.

[mitchelr]

I've had 3 or 4 layouts.  The first were no bigger than 4' by 6'.  Now I have a huge room that is about 5 feet by 9 feet.  More real estate means more space to have to clean when it inevitably gets dirty.  No Big Boys or Challengers on my layout but I still have fun.

Mitch

[brianel027]

Mikegraz, yes my personal feelings are strong. Putting those aside, I not the least little bit off base. My conclusions are based on what I have heard personally from various train company people and from what the various CEO's have stated in the pages of the train magazines in which we all can read. The last statement regarding usage of TMCC was made under Brady's tenure at Lionel, where the statement was made that usage of TMCC had not made the inroads Lionel had hoped for and was only at around 25% of the market. Granted, that number could be higher today, but it is very unlikely that number has doubled in the course of only a few years, given the steady price increases.

I won't argue that the new scale realism and new technology has made the hobby more fun for some, and even has helped bring people into the hobby. But again, based on Lionel's own statements, the strongest area of new sales has been with starter sets and related items. And since none of the new affordable lower priced stater sets include TMCC, it's not unreasonable to conclude that many new modelers are not running their trains by digital control.

Going to the original topic for a moment, even Nick Ladd at K-Line told me he knew the majority of modelers were just as I stated earlier. Ladd, along with some of the prior Lionel CEO's seemed to understand that while the new technology and high end trains were creating excitement, there was also a big liability to them. Mike Wolf has said the profit margins on these items are slim, and so haven't others. Even Calabrese has conceeded to the shortsightedness of that thinking. Yet, this is what the majority of new product offerings are. Sorry but that seems foolish to me.

What is driving the high end of the market is two pronged: a minority of potential buyers spending the majority of dollars, and the fierce unrelenting unforgiving competition between Lionel and MTH (and K-Line before they folded). While the competition has been good and has driven the hobby forward, there have also been liabilities. The train companies have (one could almost be tempted to say foolishly again) put vast sums of investement dollars into development and new tooling of products that do not attract the majority of buyers. I think they individually feel the need to do this for fear of being one-upped by the competition. How many times have we heard folks say "well, I like that, but I'll wait for the other company to make one." Then folks wonder why there is so much duplication of the same product types from the differing companies.

K-Line mostly went under from doing too much tooling on the high end and accumulating too much debt. Ironically, the sad thing about K-Line going under was at the end they had started making some products that had much more appeal: the redesigned 027 switches, the small switcher and steamer, the neat new accessories and last but not least SuperStreets. These last items should have been done first at the expense of the Mikados, Hudsons and some of the other high end engines that ended up as blowouts because they weren't selling in sufficient quantities.

Again, while the competition has been good, it has also unwittingly created a deep divide of brand loyalists in the hobby. But that just follows the bitterness that is within the companies themselves. MTH has no love for the current Lionel company, and reading Clyde Coil's public comments, there's obviously little love for MTH at Lionel either. the resulting lawsuits illustate the point even more so, and have hurt the companies and as a result have and will continue to hurt the buyer.

Three rail trains have always been about rugged action and play value. Three rail trains are what introduced youngsters into the hobby. Now things have changed and there are more options with our trains. But as I have said before, it is obvious that the product offerings are lopsided towards the high end. And as my grandmother used to say "when you have too much of a good thing, it can easily become a bad thing."

And in my opinion, I am not so confident that both big companies will be left standing depending on which way the final verdict goes this coming winter. They both have debt and they both have been stretched thin. MTH is very quick now to cancell anything that doesn't generate enough preorders (advance cash) to help pay for the production. And MTH doesn't have the annual sales figures that Lionel has. Does anyone think that Lionel's parent company Wellspring wants to swallow a $40M judgement. Or even half of that? Remember, many high level Lionel employees were fired when the first verdict came down.... employees that probably had little to do with it. So we shall see.

And one more thought: the 1033 transformer is rugged by the testing of time. We shall see if TMCC can withstand the same testing as the 1033. Used, the 1033 is very affordable by comparison and by using the B-U voltage setting, kids won't be running the trains off the track either.

[jefelectric]

hopper,

By now I guess you have figured out that most of us either have a small layout or started with one.

Be sure to check out Mikes (mikegraz)  web site slide show, it really shows what can be done in a small space.  Wish mine looked half that good.

I started out with a 6'-8' X 10' layout, thats 4 - 30" holllow core doors covered with homosote.  Later added a 12" shelf along one wall and a tunnel into the unfinished portion of the basement to a 5' X 13' new layout.  I ended up with a larger dogbone layout that gives me a nice long run where I can keep two & sometimes 3 trains going with TMCC & DCS.  Yes I love the new systems.  Gradually selling or converting everything that will not run on one or the other.

My advice, start small and take your time & enjoy.

[dbaker48]

Jon,
I think you are using the wrong prefixes.  Try [?img]then the address from shutterfly, and end with [/img?]
Without the question marks

[Kooljock1]

Hi There! We're a little tight for space here ourselves...a family of five squeezed into a two bedroom condo...

And yet....I've built an empire on a 5'X7' and 5'X12' table stuck together into an "L" shape that's roughly 12'X12'.

I was granted trackage rights over the family storage area, which I placed into large plastic bins that I cabn easily slide in and out for under-table wiring operations. This gives me not only a great layout space, but also hides boxes of Christmas decorations, holloween stuff, and my wife's sewing machine!

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6dc09b3127cce9722da34458200000016100Qct2Tho0Yse
" border="0" />

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6da08b3127cce88ed2116a50b00000016100Qct2Tho0Yse
" border="0" />

Jon

FREAKIN' Shutterfly doesn't work anymore!

[Anonymous]

Jim (jaabat), your post of 10/12/06 at 9:21 is subtle but amusing. (In case you think nobody actually reads these things....)

[Frank53]

In regard to the original topic: I have a smaller layout and don't really have any desire to upsize. I enjoy the challenge of creating convincing scenes within a smaller space. http://home.comcast.net/~graz6/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html Mike

 

one of the neatest layotus around in my opinion, regardless of size. Clearly the most finely detailed  small space layout. Outstanding work.

[Anonymous]

Brainel,
I think you're way off base with many of your statements.
I think that TMCC has made strong inroads into the 3-rail market.
I think that kids enjoy running trains with a CAB-1 remote as much, if not more, than a traditional transformer.
Using a CAB-1 is easy and it's rugged. Kids are unlikely to break it.
Using TMCC, you can limit the top speed of any loco so kids can't run them off the track.
I've seen many a Show layout where operators hand out extra CAB-1's to the kids to get them involved in running the trains.
Yes, trains are expensive and yes, there are train folks that don't want you to touch stuff and may not be "kid minded". However, neither of these facts are really a result of Command control being in the hobby.
In regard to the original topic: I have a smaller layout and don't really have any desire to upsize. I enjoy the challenge of creating convincing scenes within a smaller space.

http://home.comcast.net/~graz6/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

Mike

[Buckeye Riveter]

Very good points, Thor.   I would like to suggest that if you desire realism, buy an actual railroad.  Your problems will change from "How do I make that rock outcropping look realistic?", to "How do I keep those rocks from falling on the track, derailing the train and destroying millions of dollars of new automobiles?"