Ugggggggggh the "new stuff"

[dbaker48]

Wouldn't it really be interesting if you could get an opinion of what Joshua (Lionel), AC Gilbert, would think if they could see the models available today. I'm sure they would be overwhelmed with the detail, features, and HOW prototypical the inventory is. In their day they pushed the technology while staying within cost constraints. Today, I think the industry is taking "advantage" of technology, and still maintaing cost constraints. Im so impressed with the quality of all the primary manufacturers, I can't understand why anybody wouldn't find this hobby intriguing.

And of course, that brings about one of the MAJOR facets of it all, there are so many variations within it, EVERYONE can do their thing, and still benefit from the overall growth. Personally, I will probably end up selling off all my PW and some MPC to upgrade the to the modern items. Because I WANT TO ENJOY THEM, let my descendants find their OWN toys of preference. [soapbox]

After reading a couple of the immediate previous posts. Just cant understand, if PW was so great why is it that their is more growth going on within the past two decades (since 1990), then in the previous 40 years?. And Lionel has evolved from the PW "golden years" to Fundamensions MPC, and barely staying alive., until the current generation of technology brought new life to the hobby. The PW was great in its time, but come on guys IT IS A NEW DAY, LET'S get on with life.

Most people that owned Edsel's praised them too!

[msacco]

Main Entry: Ludd·ite
Pronunciation: 'l&-"dIt
Function: noun
Etymology: perhaps from Ned Ludd, 18th century Leicestershire workman who destroyed machinery
: one of a group of early 19th century English workmen destroying laborsaving machinery as a protest; broadly : one who is opposed to especially technological change

Okay Postwar guys, I guess this is us.

[3railguy]

You guys are putting up a loosing argument here. Now this comes straight from the Gods of this forum. In their advertisement for "ALL STAR ELECTRIC TRAINS", a publication about POSTWAR, Read that? "ALL STAR".

This is what the forum Gods have to say about postwar in their ad:

QUOTE:
You’ll see 100 pages of amazing layouts and collections that feature the greatest toy trains in history. You’ll discover why those classic Lionel’s are still prized today. More All-Star Electric Trains features amazing collections, great feature stories, and page after page of color photos of history’s greatest toy trains.

To further get my point across, every year, CTT (the forum Gods) put on a sweepstake. The grand prize has always been a postwar set or postwar engine. You see the forum Gods know that a grand prize winner deserves only the finest.

POSTWAR RULES

[Anonymous]

Quote:
it's the fact that you can't fix the things when they do have a problem and years from now all of these boards will be oblsolete, and you'll have either shelf queens or engines converted to conventional.

30 years from now if my mth engine has a fried board in it I will surely not convert it to a conventional loco. That would be a step backwards. I'm sure that if there is a need for it there will be repair options for current locos. Just as there is today for postwar locos.(electronic up grades)


QUOTE:
You’ll see 100 pages of amazing layouts and collections that feature the greatest toy trains in history. You’ll discover why those classic Lionel’s are still prized today. More All-Star Electric Trains features amazing collections, great feature stories, and page after page of color photos of history’s greatest toy trains

CTT said it best postwar trains are just that, classics and they are history

[dbaker48]

No arguement here, post war is fine. And I am grateful that their are those that will give my post war some value when I sell it. I really do not plan on repairing very many of my trains 30 years from now. They will be well worn out by then, and not worthy of repair. I am more of an OPERATOR than a COLLECTOR. I havn't found any trains to be much of a investment benefit. I do find them of tremendous "play" value, and that is what I purchased them for. I don't think that TMCC or DCS has a lot of shelf benefit. And, most people that have seen any of mine run, are always asking for the newer stuff first. Usual comment about PW is, I had that as a kid.

And if others enjoy collecting, that's fine, it's whatever makes you happy. And that's the best place to spend your disposable income on.

[Frank53]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dbaker48


After reading a couple of the immediate previous posts. Just cant understand, if PW was so great why is it that their is more growth going on within the past two decades (since 1990), then in the previous 40 years?

simple economics - more people,

and more people with more disposable income.

If there are more people to buy trains in teh 1990's than there were in the 1950's, it seems obvious to me that the growth in the ninties would be greater.

I know this. I had trains when I was a kid in the 50's. In the 60's those trains went in a stiffling hot in teh summer, and freezing cold in the winter attic in my Dad's house and didn't come out until 2002.

I oiled them and cleaned them and put them on a track and they run like they did 40 years ago - flawlessly. The 40 year old smoke pellet residue startiong puffing out 40 year old smoke rings after a few laps around the track.

I just bought a small collection from a fellow which include a Santa Fe F3 - one of the most striking and oft copied designs ever. I oiled it and put it on teh track and it ran like a champion. It had been in teh guy's attic for 30 years.

Take any new engine and put in an attic somewhere until 2046 and let me know how it runs when you take it down. Then take it to the Jetson's Train Company and try to get a replacement board.

I can guarantee you that unless we move to something other than 110AC, my post war trains will still be running in 2046, and I hope I am around to see that (doubtful). Further, if these trains develop a problem, a screwdriver, a little oil and a soldering gun will still be able to fix all ills.

With equal certainty, I can guarantee you that the bulk of the modern trains won't be able to get out of the gate.

and this is why, postwar trains simply rock.

Further, while I have a head of steam here, post war trains have character. They have stories, they have history, and they were made in the USA. They are a product of the greatest generation of Americans who will ever live and many among us respect and appreciate their heritage.

When you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way . . .

[Frank53]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dbaker48

No arguement here, post war is fine. And I am grateful that their are those that will give my post war some value when I sell it.

When you decide to sell them, find me.

I should clarify, I too, am an operator, as opposed to a collector. I run every one of my post war trains. If I aquired a rare piece (there are two on my long term want list), it wouldn't hjold it's value because it would be tooling its way around my layout, as opposed to sitting in an unopened box.

[dbaker48]

I respect both of your opinions, and certainly would not try to "convert" you. My point is quite simple, I find the operating benefits significant. And that is what "I" enjoy. Maybe if I live long enough I may even be able to control my trains by thought process. Always looking ahead.

And I am sure, I won't have any trains in the attic in 2046, I don't even plan on taking them to the grave either which is probably where I will be, or running around as a 98 year old playing with trains. Wouldn't that be a sight.

Enjoyed --- has been a interesting conversation

[Frank53]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dbaker48


Enjoyed --- has been a interesting conversation

likewise

[3railguy]

QUOTE: I really do not plan on repairing very many of my trains 30 years from now. They will be well worn out by then, and not worthy of repair. I am more of an OPERATOR than a COLLECTOR. I havn't found any trains to be much of a investment benefit. I do find them of tremendous "play" value,

Whooooo said anything about collector when it comes to postwar? I run the p***s out of every postwar engine I own. My only shelf display pieces are a couple new engines I own with dead electronics.

30 years from now, I don't care either what state my trains are in cause I'll be dead. I can assure people that my postwar engines will still run after I'm dead.

[Bob Keller]

Okay guys, I've had some complaints about this thread from other forumites about this thread becoming a quagmire.

Why don't we pick up sides: the Postwar Rocks, New Stuff Stinks team versus the New Stuff Rocks, Old Stuff Stinks team.

One team will be shirts, the other skins, and we'll have a funnel cake eating contest at York to decide the issue once and for all time. [:o)]

[palallin]

Actually, I' m on both sides. For those who don't know or remember, I'm also into Standard Gauge. Some of the trains I run were antiques before the PW engines under discussion were designed. And I suspect they will be running after the last Santa Fe F3 has given up the ghost.

However, this myth about the perfection of PW stuff needs to be countered. It is seeing through a nostalgic glass, darkly. Can anyone say, "Scout"? How about the '46 Berks that were rotting themselves into pieces from their own smoke (not to mention ruining living room furniture and posing an explosion hazard)? What about the transformers that melted their cases or blew them out? The vibrotors that failed? How about the wondrous e-units that burn their fingers off? None of these (and any more examples exist) was rare (except the exploding transformers). How about the mis-packed outfit boxes that had three curved sections and nine straights?

Don't let nostalgia blind you. The ones running today are the survivors. Numerous of their fellows died untimely deaths long ago.

Further, we in the hobby CAN work on our engines, but most people then could not. Service stations were overwhelmed by thousands upon thousands of pieces needing repair. During the holidays, these places would run shifts well into the night fixing them. Anyhing mechanical can and WILL break down.

Does any of this mean the Lionel Corp was turning out shoddy goods? Not really, any more than the failures today say the same thing about modern Lionel (or Williams or Atlas or whomever). Man is imperfect; his creations are imperfect. A friend of mine builds trucks for Dodge. A few years back, he bought a brand new one for over $36,000. He got in it to drive it off the lot, and the transmission exploded before he got to the street.

Modern era trains seem to be worse performers because we are here--with adult expectations--while the short-time failures are happening. We didn't watch it happen (at least not to any more than our own trains) suring the PW era, but it did happen, and the examples are well documented.

[dbaker48]

Bob,
Why would anyone complain? Is everyone forced to read it? It's just a few guys bantering about opinons, which fortunately we all have .... I hope. I don't think anyone has been harmed. Kinda reminds me of a Chevy vs Ford argument, their are no winners, just folks venting. This wasn't even discussing 1 manufacturer vs another, huh, I don't get it.

Maybe I should keep my future comments to topics like; How to make trees, How to hook up a transformer. Well, we do live in a politically correct world today, so I guess it crosses here too, "don't express yourself unless its favorable, flow with the crowd, don't look for any variances, stay in a vanilla world, and praise everyone"

[soapbox] Done

(I wasn't offended, and I hope I didn't offend anyone. If so [*^_^*][*^_^*][*^_^*][*^_^*] Verry sorrrry Pleeeese forgive me

(It was fun though, I was actually thinking .[;)])

[Frank53]

Don:

I share your view. How uptight do you have to be to complain about a couple of folks very politely and respectfully discussing the pros and cons of post war versus modern trains?

Pretty uptight, I would think.

[Bob Keller]

Did I delete the thread?

Nope.

Just responding to queries about this thread from some forum members.

If the funnel cake option doesn't swing it, how about a crab cake eating duel to settle the issue?

[wallyworld]

I agree-postwar does rule. I am the disatisfied owner of several Proto 1 engines who are always poised on the verge of self destruction-expensive retrofits aka "upgrades" (ha-ha)-ugh. All those bells and whistles have lost their appeal. Simpler is better. The last thing I need in a stress reducing hobby is stress or an education in techno-fixes. One man's opinion.

[palallin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ogaugeoverlord

If the funnel cake option doesn't swing it, how about a crab cake eating duel to settle the issue?

I prefer the funnel cakes myself, and we cannot overlook the QC problems with crab cakes. And think of how many service stations it took to keep all those crabcakes in good working order! Have you tried to get parts for crabcakes? When Stout auctions ran the Mrs. Paul's liquidation and Red Lobster allowed crabcake production to finally go overseas, their appeal to me was lost. And those crabcake collectors grabbed up all the parts. Check out eBay aution number OICU812: Lookit how much people are paying just for crabcake boxes! And they don't even have the pictures on them!

Nope: funnel cakes for me, please. And none of those fancy-pants modern toppings, either: just plain powdered sugar sprinkled on them and a Pepsi (not a Coke, mind you!) on the side.

Oh, yeah: I drive an old, reliable ('69) Chevy truck, and I try not to let my friend drive Fords.

Less filling.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . .


[:D][8D][:o)][;)][:p]

[dbaker48]

Bob,
That's why you get paid the big bucks, you get to keep peace and harmony with everyone. I sure would like to go to York, I would even pay for the funnel cakes, but being stuck here on the west coast, couldn't afford the trip this year, maybe next year.

Frank, UH-Oh we both agree! [8D], I have actually argued your side of the arguement many times, and was enjoying having a dicussion taking the opposite position I previously held. I certainly agree with you that 30 years from now it would be extremely difficult getting replacement parts or even repairing the new stuff. Because we do live in a disposable society as well. So buy today, play hard, replace or discard tomorrow. But have fun in the interium. Could you imagine trying to take a calculator that might have had in college and trying to get it fixed? Or even finding an AC adapter for it? I know I paid over $200 for a engineering calculator then, and bought a programmable expanded engineering, accounting calculator for my son this past year for $69.

Regards
(Anyway funnel cakes and crab cakes? Which would we eat first? Has to be the funnel cakes. Cause crab cakes would have an after taste. Or would the funnel cakes remove the after- taste? I am a definite funnel cake first guy!!!! What do you think?) [:D][;)][(-D]

Oh yeah, I would probably have to have one of those new fangled topping on the funnel cakes, (don't like em, but have to be different, you know). I wonder which is more controversial cherry or berry? then of course there is peach oh heck to many choices maybe they sell a topping interface unit or controller?

[Anonymous]

This is a completely reasonable and good discussion.
My situation may be similar to others. When I first got back into 3 rail five years ago (after a 20 year hiatus) I dug out my brothers old Lionel set, and bought a PW reconditioned Scout. I bought some new track, and a used Transformer. For five years, I've set up a carpet layout a couple times a year, and have had a great time runnng with my kids. Not a lick of it is worth anything so I don't care how fast the kids run the thing. Now... last Christmas, I bought a brand spanking new MTH starter set. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT! It's not something I'm going to let the kids "play" with, but it's for ME, not them. I'm building an extremely small "permanent" layout... 3 x 5. I find the "Bells and Whistles", The Talking feature, the smoke, and the automatic uncoupling to be simply AWESOME, and truly a benefit on a layout as small as mine. The greatest feature is the fact that I can run the thing at such an insanely slow speed, that it helps distract from the fact that my layout is REALLY small. I don't have this luxory with my PW stuff.
Anyway... I don't disagree with the argument about future electronics issues on the new stuff... BUT... I'm not Mr. Mechanical anyway, so I'm dependent upon the local shop to assist me with maintenance on the OLD and the NEW. I just REALLY like the "show" I get from my new trains, and will for many years be buying only the New.
my 2 cents.
Greg

[Anonymous]

Mr Administrator;

You heard 'em! Funnel cakes at York. I expect to see a report in CTT: Will Postwar or Modern win this contest??

[jefelectric]

Bob, I vote for the crab cake idea, not much of a funnel cake fan

Don, I can use the calculator that I used in college and it doesn't need any power and it never needs repairs. Guess this really dates me, it is a K+E slide rule dated 1947. No I don't really still use it, just making a point.

Back to trains. I can appreciate a nice post war item but I don't buy them or run them. I like the new stuff with TMCC and DCS even if I am an old geezer. Actually I like any thing that runs on rails, full size or model.

But as Don said, to each his own.

[dougdagrump]

Funnel Cakes ??????
Why not a true test?????
White Castle Eating Contest !!!!!!!!
If anybody is left standing it will be a real miracle.....
[(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D]

[msacco]

QUOTE: Originally posted by palallin


Don't let nostalgia blind you. The ones running today are the survivors. Numerous of their fellows died untimely deaths long ago.

Wow, to think I started this thread. Okay I'll have at it one more time.
Please show me a lionel engine that has died or find me someone who has managed to kill one in the past
I know I've never seen a dead Postwar lionel engine.

Mike S.

[csxt30]

QUOTE: Originally posted by msacco

QUOTE: Originally posted by palallin


Don't let nostalgia blind you. The ones running today are the survivors. Numerous of their fellows died untimely deaths long ago.

Wow, to think I started this thread. Okay I'll have at it one more time.
Please show me a lionel engine that has died or find me someone who has managed to kill one in the past
I know I've never seen a dead Postwar lionel engine.
Mike S.

Well, might as well keep it going !! I want to stay in this race !! There's no new ones dead either, just those waiting for new boards or conversions, whatever ! Plus, the new ones or modern stuff are probably not going to be thrown in the garbage cans & hauled off to dumps like the postwar stuff was in the 60s & 70s !!!!
Thanks !

[palallin]

I have one, and it isn't even a Scout. Check under the tables at the next show you go to or the hallowed halls of eBay. But remember as well that most of the ones that died have been tossed, trashed, or recycled. In those many, many cases, I cannot show them to you.

[dbaker48]

[#offtopic] Can you believe the number of readers on this thread? Other than the "pot" this is the highest hitter. (discounting the sticky thread)

ALL MODEL TRAIN ENTHUSIASTS ARE FINE, JUST A MATTER OF PERSONAL DESIRE

That being said if it wasn't for the post war, I would have not been around for the new stuff. Now if I take all the electronics out of the newer engines, and was to reverse retrofit the drive train from a post war into the newer engines, Hmmmmm I would have an engine with better detail that I could store in my attic for 30 years and it would probably still run, if I could still find a trasnformer at that time.

The rolling stock? No the new stuff is uncontestably better, and even more price effective. Compare the detail, workmanship, design, and technology of materials used. Lighting is better, trucks, couplers, paint schemes everything. Even the boxes., and inserts. Styrofoam will last for decades.

Gosh ... I like this hobby.

[Anonymous]

"I know I've never seen a dead Postwar lionel engine."
------------------

Gee, I've seen lots and lots of them--first back in the 50s and 60s, and in virtually all the years thereafter. That's why Lionel has had authorized service stations over all these years.

Yes, they are often easier to repair than more contemporary models, especially those laden with electronic gizmos, but it's definitely true that postwar items had their share of problems. When I was selling Lionel trains in the toy department of a department store back in the late 50s and early 60s, we occasionally had items we sold come back due to one problem or another. Back then, we simply replaced the "defective" item, with a new one, and the customer went on his merry way. Can't do that very often these days!

As for anyone complaining about this thread: Well, I guess I just feel sorry for them. If they want to play on-line, they need to develop a tolerance for differing opinions. Besides, the last I checked, there was no requirement that every thread be mandatory reading. If a topic is of no interest, it's really pretty simple to not click the mouse button on that thread.

[3railguy]

QUOTE: One team will be shirts, the other skins, and we'll have a funnel cake eating contest at York to decide the issue once and for all time

Bob, you're on! I'll take funnel cake over scrapple any day!

QUOTE: ALL MODEL TRAIN ENTHUSIASTS ARE FINE, JUST A MATTER OF PERSONAL DESIRE

This thread isn't about model train enthusiasts. It's postwar trains verses new trains. Nothing personal here at all.

[1688torpedo]

Hello All! Glad that Bob (Overlord) Likes Funnel Cakes. His contest sounds like a fun idea![;)][:)][:P] However,If the 800lb Bruin of Millersburg is one of the Contestants.Then, That will be a definate Challange indeed.[;)][:)][8D][:o)]. Take Care all.

[marmelmm]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougdagrump

Funnel Cakes ??????
Why not a true test?????
White Castle Eating Contest !!!!!!!!
If anybody is left standing it will be a real miracle.....
[(-D] [(-D] [(-D] [(-D]

Mmmm, sliders. And we can grease the locos with the cardboard sleeves afterwards. ;9

Dunno about "shirts" vs "skins," though. I'm pretty horrifying sans shirt. 'Gorilla' Monsoon, anyone?

Speaking as a traction fan, if all that was available was the Lionelville Trolley, I'd still be mostly modeling HO. ;D

Very trolley yours,

-MMM-