Ugggggggggh the "new stuff"

[msacco]

This is why Postwar will always rule!!!!!!

After not running my Lionel Docksider for two months I put it on the track today. It sputtered a bit, never getting beyond a crawl, then just died and sat there with the headlight on.
C'mon I bought this engine in January! My second modern engine in the last year and I swear "as god is my witness" (GWTW) I won't buy another one. Heck I even thought buying a really base kind of engine like a Docksider would leave me without the problems that the others have with their thousand dollar engines......But No!!!!!!!!.
You know the frustrating part is I can't even do anything with it. Yeah, it's under warranty but that's a hassle. If it was a 2025 or the like I 'd open 'er up check the brushes, check for bad fingers, etc. I could get it going again using my parts surplus.
I seriously can't imagine going through this with an Acela or something of that price. Don't know how these tech train guys do it.

Mike S.

[johnandjulie13]

Hello Mike:

While I also love the bulletproof dependability of the postwar stuff, I am a sucker for all of the digital bells and whistles (pun intended [:D] ). DCS, along with all of the sounds and features built in to the engines make for a far more enjoyable experience for me. Fortunately, I have not run into any major issues yet with my gear.

Sorry to hear that your docksider isn't working. I am curious to see how the warranty work gets handled.

Good Luck,

John O

[Frank53]

QUOTE: Originally posted by msacco

Postwar will always rule!!!!!!

Mike S.

I completely agree with, and vigroously endorse this post.

[brianel027]

Mike, it wouldn't be good to do anything to void the warranty, but you might try "looking under the hood" so-to-speak, to see if there are any loose wires or something obvious of that nature.

I personally couldn't tell a good circuit board from a bad one just by looking at it. But I've read a number of threads concerning modern locos made overseas that have loose wires upon receiving the loco, or wires that come loose due to poor solder or thin wire at the point of the connection.

I can certainly go along with the sentiments above on the topic of postwar reliability and the manner by which the stuff can be serviced by someone with some basic mechanical / electrical ability. I'm not big on all the electronic digital extras of today's trains that so many seem to think are necessary to enjoy the hobby. For me, it's driven up the prices in general and it's also one more thing to go wrong, especially given the overseas manufacturing and the long, not-so-smooth journey to the US mainland.

But I also run a lot of the much cheaper types of locos (to which I make many improvements), many of which were made overseas (and most not made by Lionel because of Lionel's excessively high prices for these kinds of products). It should be noted Lionel has had the lower end trains and starter sets made overseas long before they openly acknowledged it. And maybe because the stuff I buy is simplier by nature, I haven't had trouble and can easily fix things myself.

Anyways, I'd like to hear the problem is nothing more than a loose connection. The new Lionel Docksider has gotten good reviews and straddles the divide between "027 traditional" and "scale" quite nicely. It is certainly one of the very few Lionel locos with some degree of quality (well, we hope) that is in the $100 price range... how many other Lionel locos are near that price? Not many. It seems the Docksider is selling well too and I've been hoping this would send a message to Lionel that this type of product is the direction they need to pay attention to. Not to mention the success Ready Made Toys has been having with the "Beep", "Buddy" and the soon to be released "Peep."

Either way Mike, it'd be a good idea to let Lionel know about the problem regardless of what you do service-wise. Quality control has been an issue for some time now, though it seems to be gradually getting better. Even the train magazines have reviewed products that have been sent to them by the companies themselves, that had loose wires or where something else didn't work soon after being out of the box... check your back issues and see.

The trains companies need to know about these sorts of problems and that they still exist. Hopefully they'll make the needed changes. Otherwise your vow not to buy anymore new products might be the only way they'll otherwise get the message.

[ChiefEagles]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Frank53

QUOTE: Originally posted by msacco

Postwar will always rule!!!!!!

Mike S.

I completely agree with, and vigroously endorse this post.

Some folks. [;)]

[eZAK]

Mike S.,

It sounds like you have a RF signal issue.
Check your wiring to the outside rails,
Check for interference, (ungrounded metal structures, other RF devices, etc.)
Check batteries in remote, Also try touching remote antennae to the hand rail of dock sider.
Look for loose or shorted connections between the board and the hand rails.

[Anonymous]

I like the new stuff just fine (including the three Lionel Docksides I currently have).

And everyone in the hobby today can thank their lucky stars that a lot of us do seem to like the new trains, despite probelms that pop up now and then, because it would be a VERY small hobby without us, and you likely wouldn't even have these forums to spout-off on, not to mention the magazines and the wealth of related products that are made and offered ONLY because there is a decent-size market for them--a market created largely by the newer-train buyers.

[darianj]

Sorry to hear you're having trouble; but I too have to like the new stuff better.

[3railguy]

I have lots of old trains and only a few new trains. The old stuff is cheerfully funky, well made, and cheap and easy to service. Plus I don't have to worry about those %^*#%$ rubber bands flying off the wheels.

[Kooljock1]

Pat,

It's hard to have an RF signal problem in a conventional engine, More likely loose wire, dirty pick-ups, or dirty track.

Jon [8D]

[msacco]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

I like the new stuff just fine (including the three Lionel Docksides I currently have).

And everyone in the hobby today can thank their lucky stars that a lot of us do seem to like the new trains, despite probelms that pop up now and then, because it would be a VERY small hobby without us, and you likely wouldn't even have these forums to spout-off on, not to mention the magazines and the wealth of related products that are made and offered ONLY because there is a decent-size market for them--a market created largely by the newer-train buyers.

You're absolutely right Allan, We postwar lovers have you guys to thank. If it wasn't for all you guys buying this expensive, overseas, low quality stuff, Postwar prices wouldn't have dropped at all. I'm stil waiting for it to drop even more so we can get really nice postwar pieces for quite a bit less. The more I can get, the more I can enjoy and pass down to my kids and their kjds. Cause you know this stuff will just keep running. Try passing this new stuff down......okay maybe they'll make nice paperweights.
and by the way I don't care if the hobby is big or small. I'm also am very happy with the "limited" postwar selection that's available and really don't care if every loco in the world is modeled. I love how Lionel made a handful of engine models and reused parts and design over and over. That's the secret to this stuff and why it works so well.

Mike S.

[3railguy]

POSTWAR RULES

[Anonymous]

"We postwar lovers have you guys to thank. If it wasn't for all you guys buying this expensive, overseas, low quality stuff."
------------------------

You're very welcome, I'm sure! But I'm not buying the expensive stuff--preferring the lower-end items instead--and I'm just luckier than some of you guys because quality control hasn't been a major problem for me. Overseas production doesn't bother me a bit. Some of the best trains I have are Marklin HO and #1 gauge, LGB, and others, including some very fine MTH Standard Gauge repros that are, in my opinion, superior to the originals in a number of ways.

Postwar or any other era is fine, if that's what you enjoy. But the range of trains available today far surpasses anything done in any prior era, and it's easy to understand why the tremendous growth the O gauge market experienced in the 90s is largely attributed to those more recent offerings.

[3railguy]

QUOTE: Postwar or any other era is fine, if that's what you enjoy. But the range of trains available today far surpasses anything done in any prior era, and it's easy to understand why the tremendous growth the O gauge market experienced in the 90s is largely attributed to those more recent offerings.

Mike......we don't seem to be getting through to Allan here. I'll say it once again:

POSTWAR RULES!!!!

[ChiefEagles]

Allan, I think they are just scared of modern electronics. Probably too complicated. [;)][:)] Personally, I like them both. Converted some of the 70's/80's stuff and love it.

[brianel027]

Without starting a war, there are certainly plusses and minuses to both sides of the modern versus postwar eras. As Mike S. pointed out, there was a real ingenuity from Lionel's engineers (and MARX included here too) in utilizing components and parts to create new products. Not only was this a cost-cutting measure for the companies, but was also a convenience for modelers too.

I heard it once said that postwar/prewar Lionel products were over-engineered. If that's the case, then the MARX products were under engineered. Either way, most are reliable products, that are easily fixed and tinkered with by someone with some basic knowledge. Most to this day, still have original or preproduction parts readily available - something that cannot be said for some of the newer current trains. When one reads about how the original Lionel's were manufactured, you realize that these really were the premiere toys of their day.

But for me, on the down side, the paint and graphics capabilities of years ago just cannot compare to what can be done today. Even the MPC-era Lionel trains had distinctly better paint jobs and graphics than their earlier counterparts. Despite the criticisms of the MPC-era, I find it is a nice compromise between the postwar and modern eras. I have MPC locos over 30 years old that are still running just fine. Considering that the MPC stuff was not quite up to the same par as most postwar stuff, that's quite a statement in itself.

One area of trains where I do think the newer stuff surpasses the older stuff is the basic more affordable stater trains. Even the Lionel dealers of years ago knew the Scout locomotives were a major headache to work on, and I've read where many wondered why Lionel took such a backwards step. Of course, it was cost-cutting, but as one older dealer said to me, it was more that Lionel cut their own throat inorder to cut costs.

Although many of the MPC and modern era cheaper trains really are cheaper, I have found many (like the pastic bodied DC can motored small steamers) are easily inproved on a performance and visual level. When I am done with these locos, they pull cars as well as any postwar loco I have.

There are times though I wish we could turn back the clock. While the modern control electronics appeal to many, the many lawsuits banging around the train business are mostly concerning this new technology. There aren't as many train dealers and requirements to sell trains are far tighter and more demanding than they were during the postwar or MPC eras (something that could be looked at today!). I recall buying trains at dealers who had shops in their basements and garages. That would't be approved today. Margins are slim and competition is fierce. So while the competition between Lionel, MTH and K-Line has pushed the hobby forward, in some respects it has also pushed it backward. Mike Wolf has admitted to spending more than $55 million dollars in tooling in the past decade... that's a lot of money for a niche business like 3-rail trains. Who knows how much K-Line spent? One thing for sure, it was TOO much. And notice when Lionel started spending big time on tooling... when they went to China. Their production costs are a fraction of what they have been for ages, which allows them to pump millions into new tooling, while continuing to raise prices on all trains: starter set cars $16.95 list 10 years ago made in USA / $29.95 today made overseas.

Jerry Calabrese says $29.95 is reasonable. I as one buying customer say it is completely unreasonable - especially for products made from tooling that was made decades ago. Here's where Mike S. makes another good point. Lionel and MTH are not only competiting with eachother, but are competiting with every train ever made. In all their most wishful thinking, there are too many trains and not enough buyers. Many of the current prices of both current MTH and Lionel products make Williams, RMT, used Lionel postwar, MPC and used K-Line items look very attractive.

Today's unforgiving demanding operators would never settle for some of the unprototypical "borrowed tooling" to develop new products, as Williams still does. With all this unique, expensive product development, some of the train companies are (in my opinion) actually setting themselves up for a big fall. Instead of spending money on unique limited appeal prototypical $1000 locomotives, the companies should be aggressively looking to expand their market base, and that will come with advertising and more practical affordable products where there are compromises are made with deail, realism and operating features.

I keep saying this, but RMT is really spot on in the right direction right now. Ironic how at one time, K-Line and MTH were both the new upstart compaies with the right ideas. Now K-Line is defunct, and MTH could sure use the capital from a lawsuit win. Meanwhile RMT surfaces as the best new train company with the kinds of trains this hobby has needed for years, and now finally has. They may not be postwar mechanically on the insides, but RMT products have a postwar charm and spirit about them... trains for the masses. And just in case Lionel and MTH are not listening (which I don't think they are), now Atlas is going to give them both another run for the money, besides the scale side, with the 027 toy side.

Yep, there are someways in which postwar products cannot be beaten. And as RMT and Atlas-Industrial Rail grows, we'll soon see how both current Lionel and MTH can be beaten, so far as at least new on the shelf products go.

[csxt30]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 3railguy

QUOTE: Postwar or any other era is fine, if that's what you enjoy. But the range of trains available today far surpasses anything done in any prior era, and it's easy to understand why the tremendous growth the O gauge market experienced in the 90s is largely attributed to those more recent offerings.

Mike......we don't seem to be getting through to Allan here. I'll say it once again:

POSTWAR RULES!!!!

I don't think so !! I see new people getting started & I don't hear of too many starting with POSTWAR. They may cross over to it later, but with all the Companies making the new stuff & millions of dollars being spent by customers & Manufacturers, how can Postwar be the # 1 trains out there ? Kids now days say soundless engines are boring. Then they can't wait to get back to their video games that have sound. I like both, but I like sound the best !!

[Frank53]

QUOTE: Originally posted by csxt30



how can Postwar be the # 1 trains out there ?

just depends on your personal perspective. For me, the hobby has always been post war trains. My personal enjoyment of the hobby ios equal parts train running, layout building and for lack of a better word, nostalgia.

I took the plunge and bought a modern train last year - a Polar Express Set with the two add-on cars.

The loco is nice, as is the tender. It has some heft to it, runs very smoothly, smokes pretty nicely and is generally an enjoyable loco. The passanger cars are sub par at best. When comparing these to my post war passanger sets, there pretty much is no comparison.

One negative on the loco. Stamped beneath it are the words "Made In China"

My post war trains say Made In The USA.

That carries a lot of weight for me.

[3railguy]

QUOTE: Allan, I think they are just scared of modern electronics. Probably too complicated.

Scared? No. Too complicated is right.....For nothing. With new stuff, you turn cab 1 round thing which sends a signal to command base which sends signal to decoder in engine which throttles current to motor. Engine goes.

With postwar, you turn transformer handle which directly throttles current to the motor through the track. Engine goes.

New stuff is like that Mouse trap game.

QUOTE: I don't think so !! I see new people getting started & I don't hear of too many starting with POSTWAR. They may cross over to it later, but with all the Companies making the new stuff & millions of dollars being spent by customers & Manufacturers, how can Postwar be the # 1 trains out there ?

The answer is simple. All this new stuff works on POSTWAR tubular track powered by POSTWAR AC transformers and mates with POSTWAR knuckle couplers. Many of today's new engines use POSTWAR style coil couplers.

When a child breaks the rubber bands off the wheels of his new Hudson on XMAS morning, where is he gonna get new ones? Walmart? LMAO!!!!

Have you ever seen a child's face light up when he gets a wiff of that hot grease smell and ionized air that only POSTWAR produces? Does he get that smell with new stuff? Not on your life. He only gets that raunchy burnt electronic smell when he fries the reverse board after plowing his hudson into Fido.

Say it with me frank:

POSTWAR RULES!!!!

[prewardude]

I have a feeling that somebody, sometime down the road, is going to have a very successful business converting our new locos over to conventional operation when the friggin' electronics in them get fried and parts are no longer available. I sort of like all the features in the new trains, but there is no way they are going to hold up for a half-century or more.

I have to side with the postwar guys on this one; bells and whistles are nice, but the new trains just aren't as durable as pre-or-postwar trains. There isn't any denying that fact. All of these new trains are just one blown resistor away from being dead on the rails.

Regards,
Clint

[Frank53]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 3railguy



Say it with me frank:

POSTWAR RULES!!!!

Post War Rocks has a nice ring to it.

When you're a Jet you're a Jet all the way . . .

[Charles Kegel]

Here is my take on the new stuff

I remember when I had a 1950 Harley riding home in the dark because the generator brushes had given out, oil leaking sometimes hard starting but easy to fix.

Now a wonderful new Harley (wow look at the price) with its electric start alternator and fuel ejection wow how nice it is, until something goes wrong, and we tow a few of them!

My 1970s Mercedes diesel had door hinges with grease fittings made to last and a mechanical injection pump that was reliable but it felt like the throttle linkage was a rubber band it smoked rattled and you needed a two mile stretch to pass!

My new Mercedes diesel is quiet no smoke well the only smoke is from the tires when you put your foot in it.

LED lights the trunk opens and closes with a button has GPS and more computer controls than some airplanes BUT when it breaks who is going to fix it when the warrantee runs out!

I’m in the 24hr towing business all my trucks are diesel powered and until recently non computer controlled what did that mean? Well it meant that they would run on even if you had no electrical power very reliable very simple, but not much in the comfort categories.

I remember when trucks stated using electronic injection pumps and computer controls it was good for me as we sure towed our share of them! Well they are now more reliable but when something goes wrong you are just out of luck it’s a dealer fix and that is that.

I must say I can’t buy a new truck now with out computer controls just bought a new unit with auto-trans and all the bells and whistles it sure is a nice ride and cost three times as much as the old one!

BUT when (not if) something goes wrong who will fix it?

As I see it it’s the same is true with our model railroads the old stuff sure was dependable but the new stuff is really high-tech with the sounds and computer controls looks like a lot of fun, but again down the road or should I say rails who is going to fix it?

It’s a high-tech world heck what would we all do with out our computers and the internet we wouldn’t be able to share our ideas here like we do now.

I look back when I was a kid and it sure looks simple in that day and age would I go back in time? I wonder…………

Well I have rambled on now and must sign off and in closing would like to say how I very much enjoy visiting the web site and talking with you folks.

Sincerely
Charles

[3railguy]

QUOTE: My 1970s Mercedes diesel had door hinges with grease fittings made to last and a mechanical injection pump that was reliable but it felt like the throttle linkage was a rubber band it smoked rattled and you needed a two mile stretch to pass!

Yea but the average life span of those cars was 300,000 miles and 500,000 miles if mostly freeway driving and you took good care of it.

[Anonymous]

Just be glad the trains don't run on Microsoft Windows, or we would be constantly re-booting and downloading fixes!

And who says technology isn't good? Sure, you have put in batteries and program and reset and so on, it just takes time and is sometimes a little frustrating with the typical problems that occur with modern electronics. But after awhile, you can get the stuff running just as good or better than postwar stuff, except for whatever units may need to be returned for repair, of course. It's no worse than trying to keep your computer maintained, you know, fixing the occasional software problem or lock-up, cleaning up and maintaining the hard drive, scanning for infected files, deleting old temp files and cookies, etc.... you know, the stuff you guys are already doing. It just takes time, and that's the price you pay for having high-speed modern miracles.

Besides, if everybody just wanted simple reliable locomotives, we would all be buying Williams or old Lionel stuff, right?

(I just love writing posts like this!)

[dbaker48]

I can accept improvement with no difficulty. The new products available to day bring a whole dimension to the hobby that was not there before. Plus some accessories that were not even dreamed of before. A turntable that works?

I find the world of electronics so interesting and feature rich, that that's where the future will be. Unfortunately the post war stuff will most probably end up as shelf queens, because the play value of all the newer stuff is so much greater.

Gee...... wonder why the conversion market is so big for converting to TMCC or DCS. Oh and you can now add sound, too.

I have plenty of postwar, definetly like the new stuff more. More action, can opperate moe at the same time with more complex operations. And even more sounds. Totally impressed.!!

[csxt30]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dbaker48

I can accept improvement with no difficulty. The new products available to day bring a whole dimension to the hobby that was not there before. Plus some accessories that were not even dreamed of before. A turntable that works?

I find the world of electronics so interesting and feature rich, that that's where the future will be. Unfortunately the post war stuff will most probably end up as shelf queens, because the play value of all the newer stuff is so much greater.

Gee...... wonder why the conversion market is so big for converting to TMCC or DCS. Oh and you can now add sound, too.

I have plenty of postwar, definetly like the new stuff more. More action, can opperate moe at the same time with more complex operations. And even more sounds. Totally impressed.!!

[#ditto] Thanks Don !! That's exactly how I see it too !! I thought I was the only one !! [:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

Do todays engines really cost that much more? When you consider the rising cost of everything including what people are paid. It doesn't seem that out of line.

[palallin]

There are some very interesting blinders in this thread. Everyone seems to assume that postwar Lionel corp had no QC problems and that all PW trains ran all the time right out of the box.

Piffle.

The nature of the problems may be different, but the effect is the same: a fair portion of classic, PW Lionel did NOT run when brand new and needed service. And many of their owners were NOT able to do it themselves. Why do you think that Lionel and every Service Station paid through the nose for extra help during the holiday season? They weren't just selling: they were servicing. And the complaints were the same: they not only had to service brand new stuff but also the stuff bought last year which, just out of storage for the next holiday season, no longer ran. Operating accessories didn't. Whistles screeched. Transformers overheated and died. Wheels fell off. Couplers broke.

If you don't believe me, get that collection of CTTs off the shelf and actually read them. They are filled with these stories, written by people who dearly loved their trains.


I do not wirte this to get modern stuff off the hook. The only Lionel motors I've ever burned out were modern can motors. But the rose-colored glasses through which some of you are viewing PW Lionel have to come off.

[msacco]

In regard to the above statement that postwar stuff will become shelf queens, I'm pretty dumbfounded. Model trains with sounds and command are still pretty new. Let's see if the play value of these gimmicky features will stand the test of time as conventional postwar equipment has. I seriously doubt it. I find that the sound is annoying after a while anyway.
And to the above statement that postwar lovers are blinded by nostalgia and can't see Lionel Corps QC problems, that's also pretty ridiculous. Nobody is perfect not even Lionel Corp but I will bet the house that the return rate is far higher today then it was yesterday, but of course there's no real way to find that out.
The important point really isn't out of the box failure, although that is troubling, it's the fact that you can't fix the things when they do have a problem and years from now all of these boards will be oblsolete, and you'll have either shelf queens or engines converted to conventional.
Then the circle will be complete grasshopper.

[3railguy]

Just because people choose new stuff over postwar doesn't change anything. If someone chooses a minvan over a Corvette, does that mean minivan's rule?

MTH and Williams copy postwar. Lionel re-issues postwar. They do it for a reason:

FEEL THE POWER

LIVE THE LEGEND

POSTWAR RULES!!!