How is the new Lionel quality?

[phillyreading]

I have Lionel stuff from the 1960's and it needs servicing occassionally.  But when new products break down a few weeks to a couple months after use it really makes me angry as can be and that is why I am so biased against the new Lionel.  Also the Lionel O gauge switch # 6-23010 (1995 to 1999) series were real DUDS!  The problems that I had with these switches just kept getting worse and I even opened up one of the switches to see what made it work, no success in repairing it! Hobby shops in nearby area even refuse to take this Lionel switch on consignment.

The Lionel trains that I have that are pre-war may not be as good looking due to age or design but they still work even the ones with electric uncouplers.

As for Williams they use steal gears and can motors. The other thing that I like about Williams is that they answer emails sent about problems, can not say that about today's Lionel.

To some it may seem that I like to pick on Lionel but in my opion the truth about Lionel's quality needs to be brought out!  Even the lawsuits that Lionel has pending makes me think that they are more concerned about making money than making model trains.

Lee F.

[IronHoarse]

Hi,

 I own only Lionel so I can't compare with other brands.  I also only own newer products, 2004 and up, so I can't compare with PW stuff.  But I can say that I have spent several thousands of dollars on the Lionel products that I do have.  All of the items worked right out of the box with out any problem, and also still work.  I even have a CW 80 that works just fine, although it is only used for accessories now.    I run TMCC only at the present time.  I am really hooked on cruise control so I am staying away from conventional stuff.  As far as I am concerned the quality is just great on the items that I have bought.

[nblum]

I've had a few Lionel products fail over the years.  They've always replaced them or refunded my money, even years after purchase in the case of an MW transformer.  Perhaps it was because I made every effort to be extraordinarily civil and polite in my requests, but everyone's mileage differs.  My dealer has also been very good about returns or exchanges, but you may not have a splendid dealer to deal with.  I've had good results with Island Trains in this regard for some mail orders, but once again, being civil and polite, and sometimes, going up the chain of responsibility is needed whether dealing with Lionel or the dealer.

Some products just don't live up to customer's expectations, and some are poorly designed to begin with, whether they be Williams, Lionel or MTH, etc.  I've bought literally 100's of Lionel items over the last 15 or so years, and fewer than 1% of them have been unsatisfactory. 

I'd say you are making rather strong statements based upon a few products you are very unhappy with and, of course, based upon your personal perceptions.  I'd also say that your claim that Williams and MTH are superior in quality to Lionel is not borne out by either my experience or the collective experience one reads about in various forums.  But hey, it's your money, and as I said, everyone's mileage differs.

[phillyreading]

nblum,

There is NO USER lack of knowledge here!!

What is it that you don't seem to understand??    I have gone by the instruction manual provided by Lionel for each of those items. Even used a volt meter to make sure that I did not provide more than 14 volts to the Lionel switch # 6-23011, seemed like the more I used the switch the more problems that kept happening!  And that is one of the reasons I say LIONEL TURDS!!!!

Also Lionel never acknowledged a problem with this series of switches but they are not made any more, so what does that tell you?  It should indicate the switches in question were factory defects!! Williams Trains said that this switch was the most problem-matic switch they have ever seen!

 As for the locomotive a GP-7 I was using a ZW to power it, NO TMCC issue as the locomotive was low price.

If this is not enuff for you to chew on what about the CW80 transformers?  From reading other posts here I would throw this transformer in the trash and replace with a Z1000 by MTH.

I try not to be biased but as I see it Lionel has brought on the problems by not giving good customer service along with defective equipment that they(Lionel) will not repair ro acknowledge a problem.

Lee

[nblum]

"From what I have seen of the NEW Lionel it is basically LIONEL TURDS!!!"

Have you ruled out user error?

[phillyreading]

From what I have seen of the NEW Lionel it is basically LIONEL TURDS!!!  The Lionel 6-23011 switches were experiamentale at best!  The low end locomotives lack any pulling power, bought a GP7 that would only pull three quad hoppers, come on Lionel used to be good quality, not any quality today by Lionel!  Reminds me of Ford Motors, at one time Ford was the best American car on the road but that was like 1950, now Ford is nothing but break-down babies from day one!

My model train money is going to Williams or MTH.

Can't afford the break-down babies from Lionel!!

Lee F.

[RR Redneck]

I"ll tell you that as much as I strongly prefer Postwar Lionel, I just lus my new Lionels.

[Smoke Stack Lightnin']

Postwar Lionel was state of the art proto in the day- things have changed.  Not fair to compare apples with oranges, but I think there is an obvious demand for high techs and gingerbread.  With the high tech stuff, be it Lionel or the others, somebody for sure is making a lot of money because the $250 boards probably cost $25 or less to produce, and everybodies stuff probably comes from the same factory in China, just different corners of the building.  My wife bought me a 99 cent key chain.  Push the button on the loco and it plays a 30 second loop of about every byte from MTH's PSA including Clickity-Clack, again 99 cents and this thing is a little over an inch long.  If my old Ford falcon ran ratty I adjusted the points, today forget it, it's computer related and out of my league.  I can field strip a PW down to the last bushing, but on my new stuff, after warranty, may as well take it out back and shoot it, or buy a Williams converter board for $29, bypass the bullshirt and make it a conventional.  I've had TMCC and MTH arrive DOA and feel bad for those of you that have been turned off by a bad experience.  To me, it can be a real rush to hear the roar of acceleration on the new engines.  Scary thing is all it takes is the spike from a derailment to fry a board.  Wonder if the Williams converter boards are cheaper by the dozen!

My 2 cents, Rich F.

[nblum]

I have a bunch (dozens) of Lionel, Atlas, K-Line and even one 3rd Rail TMCC/Railsounds locos.  I don't run them very often but I've had essentially no out of the box failures and no subsequent problems to speak of.  Oh wait, one TMCC loco had to return to Lionel for a new Railsounds board under warranty.  So  a failure rate of under 5%.  I had a Powermaster die and Lionel replaced it at no cost.  So no complaints whatever.  I also have  a few Williams and MTH PS1 locos and have had no problems with them either. 

[okiechoochoo]

I don't have any of the modern Lionel engines, not one.  I have postwar and Williams and getting more Williams.  Very reliable and lifetime warranty.  Comes with metal gears too.  Just take them out of the box and run them.  My postwar does just about the same..  Williams is the best buy on the market if you can live wihout the frustrations of the high techie stuff.

[Buckeye Riveter]

I run only Lionel TMCC engines.  Only one has headed back to Lionel for repair and it was under warranty and now it works perfect.   My HOT BOX REEFER CAR's sound died and was sent back under warranty and I received a new car.  Both returns were done within two weeks. 

As many of you know, I also have a Garden RR.  I purchased a used LGB mogul and sent it to San Diego for refurbishing, and it runs perfect.   I have now gone through two Bachman engines and three Bachman trolleys.  Bachman can not even come close to the quality in LGB.  The Bachmans do not have any electronics.  They are plain Janes.

 

[Anonymous]

Lionel quality?  I have to put my 2 cents worth in. 

My TMCC control system: in command mode, move the throttle and engine would go to full speed, ignoring any more commands.  I only ran it in conventional.  Hit the red triangle button (power shutoff) and most times it would go to full throttle.  Occasionally trains would start up by themselves, at full throttle, with remote control just sitting there, me not touching it.  System replaced, in entirety, by Lionel (I did not use the replacement system, traded it for an old Lionel train set at my dealer).

My 1993 vintage CSX "dash-8" engine and my more recent CSX "dash-9" engine have the same problem.  In conventional mode they used to start in forward, the way they are supposed to.  But, for some reason, they both changed their startup mode.  The dash-9 now starts in neutral.  And, get this, the next direction is also a nuetral, before you work the throttle a third time and it moves in forward.   The horn works intermittantly, mostly not.   The older dash-8 likes to start up in nuetral, then go in reverse.  Sometimes, after nuetral it will go in forward. 

I have a Conrail SD-70.  It was a complete mess, brand new.  Did nothing right (conventional mode, the only way I can run trains).  The dealer put a new circuit board in it.  It still did not run right.  It would ignore the throttle, then take off fast.  Mostly, the sound did not come up (would make wierd "burp" noises or "click" noises).  The horn would sound when it wanted to, not when you hit the button.  And the couplers would open randomly.  It never made a lap on my layout.  Dealer did not want to replace board again, said I must have wrecked it.  I tore out the guts, made the engine into a dummy.

My NYC industrial engine with the snow blower:  It did nothing.  I took the body off, found the circuit board loose in the engine, not hooked up.  I hooked it up.  The belt drive for the snow blower was tangled into the circuit board, I re-threaded it onto its pulleys.  Now the engine runs okay.

I will never buy a command equipped Lionel engine again. (havent brought myself to buy any new Lionel engine in the last 2, almost 3 years now...)

[Fred Bear]

If I could just find a cow catcher now for one of my 1666's. Jake

[Anonymous]

Yea but.... how about Lionel versus an F-18?

Let's see.... the Lionel needs less maintenance, cheaper to fly, and doesn't break when it hits the ground!.....

[Anonymous]

My old-line Lionel repairman used to say that my Lionel F-3 AA Southern Diesels of the early '60s were like working on Sears lawnmowers, "you don't fix them, you work on 'em". But I still have the F-3s and they still run and still sound about as loud as the old International Corn Harvester we had at the farm. My Lionel Mikado would drop its rods occasionally but otherwise I had pretty good luck with postwar. I had a lot of "adjustment" problems with power pickup rollers/shoes and repeated coupler failure [and still do with the modern equipment].

The new Lionel stuff----I had "surge " problems with TMCC Mikados and Mountains, which Lionel fixed with new boards, and I had out-of-phase problems with early 180 watt PowerHouses [which I rewired internally myself].

The best quality Lionel product [or any O-gauge product] I have owned, with proven longterm trouble-free reliability, are three postwar 275 ZWs. I now have them on the test track and in standby status and I am just now getting around to installing new cords, some new binding posts and power pickup rollers and horn/whistle diodes on all three.
Good for another few decades of service [with appropriate fuse/breaker protection].

[andregg1]

Hi to all
I think the real paradigm is MADE IN USA...good MADEIN CHINA ..no good.
I agree I am anti-china stuff (if i can) Today every thing is china, and the real sentiment is why the pride of USA toy trains is made in china!!!!
I love the post-war stuff or made in usa product, btw I start retooling all my f3 for best running and I decrease the "old diesel motor noise" a lot.
Andre.

[Anonymous]

I disagree with Allan. Trains are not computers and are not purchased for the same reasons.Rather they are models bought as show pieces and collectables with $15 worth of electrical parts. They have a whole different history and tradition.The electronics are not reliable because of poor design and lack of quality control. Unfortunatly the customer has not held the manufacturers feet to the fire in this area.

As far as reliability it is normal with modern electronics. I have not experienced any problems with TVs,radios,microwave ovens or even computers in cars. I simply take them ou of the box and use them and they function for years giving trouble free service.

I cant say the same for train products. They are designed poorly and there are problems right out of he box. Compare for example the Lionel lighthouse with th Mr Christmas lighthouse. The Lionel has a noisy mechanism,poor sound quality and plagued with problems. The Mr Christmas works flawlessly,quiet with better sounds and works year after year. It also costs half the price.

The technology is not the problem it is simply poor implimintation of it that is the problem.Years from now if there is an interest, modern reliable replacement electronics will be available for modern engines at reasonable cost so there will be no reason to throw away anyting that is sound mechanically. In fact even now most anything can be converted to Railsounds.

Dale Hz

[Fred Bear]

What I take from all of this is the post war stuff, (which is what I really love anyway) is more stable, more reliable and just plain good ole' faishioned America. I think I'll stick with it. Jake

[Anonymous]

As I noted in another thread on another forum: Just consider the stuff you buy today as disposable, just as you would a TV set, radio, microwave, computer, or other appliance in your household. Nobody fixes that stuff these days; they just head to WalMart or BestBuy and purchase something else.

The toy trains made today are no different. Most of them will perform fine right out of the box, and some won't. Those can either be sent for repair or returned for a refund.

A few years from now, the number of those that don't work right or fail to work at all will undoubtedly increase. At that point, you'll have little choice but repair it yourself (assuming you have the know-how and can find parts); park it on a siding or in a display case; or just junk it and get something new--just as you would do with your five-year-old computer.

[3railguy]

Yes the old postwar locomotives are more reliable and simpler than the new imports. But they are not as smooth running and well detailed.

Postwar tooling was hand made from pencil drawings so the mechanical tolerances were sloppy compared to today. Today's tooling is made from digital cutters from electronic drawings alowing for much tighter mechanical tolerances and finer detail.

Where postwar rules is magnetraction. With all this new technology, they give us rubber band wheels for traction on these new $1,000 steam engines! JUNK!!!

[3railguy]

Yes the old postwar locomotives are more reliable and simpler than the new imports. But they are not as smooth running and well detailed.

Postwar tooling was semi-hand made from pencil drawings so the mechanical tolerances were sloppy compared to today. Today's tooling is made from digital cutters from electronic drawings alowing for much tighter mechanical tolerances and finer detail.

Where postwar rules is magnetraction. With all this new technology, they give us rubber band wheels for traction on these new $1,000 steam engines! JUNK!!!

[PaulEFudd]

I have experienced out of box problems with newer Lionel, MTH, and K-Line, somewhere around 25% over the past 7 years. I have little experience with Postwar stuff. Most recent problems are with speed control, both Odyssey and PS2.0. Both Lionel and MTH have fixed or replaced all defects.

Paul

[msacco]

Dale,
YOu have nailed it right on the head.
For sure the new stuff is technologically amazing, but QC is just not there yet.


Mike S.

[Anonymous]

I think there is some confusion between advances in technology and quality. The P 51 Mustang fighter for example was arguably the best fighter of WW2. It was easy to manufacture in quantity,cost effective, had quality material and workmanship and could out manuver its competition. In its day it was state of the art.

It is no match for an F16 fighter assuming the F16 fighter is manufactured properly. It is superior to an F16 fighter that cannot fly due to poor quality control. If Northrup and others had the poor quality control that modern train manufacturers had WW2 would have been lost.

I have had to fix about half of my new out of box Lionel accessories. Engines have had couplers that did not work , electronics wired backwards,loose and broken parts ect. My F-3 snapped a plastic gear after one loop around the track. In my opinion these are not state of the art nor are they made with the best material available. Technologically they are better but the execution of the technology is very poor. I have bought cheap toys for $10 or less for my grandkids that have had better quality than some expensive Lionel things I have purchased and they worked out of the box.

Dale Hz

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wrmcclellan

I have certainly had a few problems with my newer Lionel stuff with all the electronics.

But I can say this...

Every modern era Lionel engine I have (from 1988 to present) is still working in its original configuration (includes repairs done by Lionel and by me).

I cannot say the same for my (very expensive) JVC DV video camera (limps and can only be used to replay existing tapes - spent 18 months out of 24 in the shop), my Sony Hi8 analog video camera (dead), my Samsung Hi8 analog video camera (dead), my Samsung DVD player (just died), the first Sony PS2 (large version with space for HD), garage door opener electronics, my pile of various dead cell phones, several clock radios, several cassette tape players, two caller ID telephones, etc.

In many cases (except the clock radios, cell phones, and the PS2) the consumer electronics had less play/use time than the trains. All the consumer stuff was less than 2-5 years old when it died and most are not economically repairable, nor can I go to an aftermarket manufacturer and get replacement electronics much less improved feature replacement electronics.

Roy, You read my mind.....Tim

[Anonymous]

Great, I have been trying to decide if I should order the SOO LINE GP35 from Atlas O or wait for LIONEL to produce the SOO LINE GP30. If they are comparable, would it just be better to wait for the GP30 and consider the GP35 later?

Andrew Falconer

[dbaker48]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ogaugeoverlord

New products from any of the O gauge manufacturers are much better made than the postwar stuff. A higher level of engineering, better assembly, and outstanding decoration.

That having been noted, in spite of their wilder speeds, the postwar gear tends to be bullet-proof.

A P-51 Mustang might be a "better" fighter than an F-15, but like modern toy trains, the new gear (F-15) can do many things the old gear (P-51) can't.

Couldn't Agree more!!! I have a lot of postwar, some MPC, and now the newer stuff. DEFINETLY prefer the new items. Now it is a question of value among the various manufacturers. It really pays to have an "OPEN" mind regarding the suppliers. Just because it says the big L doesn't mean it is the best. And I don't think it would be where it is today if it wasn't for the competitive factors that exsist. Now is certainly a buyers market with all that is available! Try to compare similiar product lines from the vaious mfg's and you'll see what I mean. I believe we will be the ultimate winners. [2c]

[ChiefEagles]

Got LOTS of Lionel diesels with TMCC. All great. Sounds are great too. Just got a new UP GP30 with Railsounds 5.0. They are outstanding. I found the detail on this engine almost as great as Atlas O. Unbelievable detail.

[nblum]

The trains of 2006 and 1956 are fundamentally different creatures. As has been mentioned, the trains of 1956 are robust, simple, and once working well, very reliable. They had a pretty high mortality rate because manufacturing tolerances were much broader, everything was mostly manual and subject to human error, etc. The new models have much more that can go wrong, and because they are electronic, can be damaged by electrical transients and short circuits that would not faze a 1956 model. But they operate, sound and look better because the state of the art of manufacturing has improved dramatically. They are different beasts with different strengths and weaknesses. Some people like abstract expressionism and some like pre-Raphaelite art, and some like both. Same goes for 1956 and 2006 trains. I like both.