More problems - Fastrack/CW-80/Remote Switches

[Anonymous]

I am having my own problems w/Fastrack, CW-80 and remote switches but all of the posts at the topic RE: CW-80 Accessory power problem with fastrack RC switches aren't making any sense to me and here's why.

I don't see how the remote switches can be powered by a seperate source. They snap right into the adjoining track sections and aren't powered from the accessory post (at least tha't how mine work).

Here is my problem, and I'm on my second CW-80. My command engines don't respond well and don't maintain even speed all around the track despite the fact that I have my main power runing to 3 sectons of track on a 5x8' layout. They short out over the switches and can't keep up enough power (or I guess technically signal in command mode) to back through the remote switches unless I send them recklessly speeding through. In another post I reported troubles getting my BB1 to operat in forward in command with the traction tires on. Now I have a second command engine and I think the problem is really the Fastrack/CW-80/FT Remote Switches (one or all together). At some points away from the switches my command engines won't power forward when I turn up power. The green light on the transformer starts to blink and the power to all the accessories starts to drain and the lights dim. If I change direction the train will go in reverse and then I again swithch to forward and then the train will usually run.
On my conventional engines when I press the neutral button on the CW-80 and then again to put the train in reverse it wont go in reverse but locks up, again unless I slam the power all the way up and blast the train off.
I know its not the engines because they work perfectly on my friends tubular layout.
Any suggestions would be appreciated, and please in plain english. I can't read a schematic and don't understand the technical stuff at all. Further I have no desire to understand the technical stuff, just want to play with TOY trains.

I have been doing a lot of whining on this forum but I really want to enjoy this hobby and so far its just full of frustration. I have built a nice layout and have some nice trains, now if I could just rund the trains enjoyably all would be well.

[lionelsoni]

"...the engines...work perfectly on my friends tubular layout." I wouldn't try to talk anyone out of TMCC, DCS, Fastrack, etc., who is happy with it. But those engines may be trying to send you a message.

[Anonymous]

Do the locomotives behave if you run them in conventional mode, aka do not power up the command base? If so, part of the problem is with propogation of the signal from the command base. If they behave badly even with the command base there is some basic wiring problem going on.

"I don't see how the remote switches can be powered by a seperate source. "

Please refer to age 8 of the switch owners manual. If you chose NOT to run the switch off of track power, you will need to remove the jumper. If you chose to remove the jumper and provide fixed voltage to the switch you MUST NOT USE the CW 80's auxiliary outputs. Internal connections of the CW will cause serious problems. You must use a seperate transformer that is in phase with the one you are using for track power. If you removed the jumper and forgot that you did this, find it and put it back in.

Because of the CW-80's internal wiring do not use the AUX outputs with any accessory that ties into track common. This will cause electrical problems and probably interfere with the command signal.

[Anonymous]

I already responded to the identical question on another forum, so won't repeat myself here other than to say I'll put my money on the CW80 being the primary source of problems. A nice looking transformer, but otherwise woefully inadequate.

[Anonymous]

Chuckn

The train runs ok in conventional mode, although, as noted one of my conventional engines won't move in reverse unless the power is pushe up into almost full power. Another conventional loco. will switch into reverse and move no problem and my command loco whe run in conventional switches into reverse and also runs no problem.

Hopefully my friend will be home tonight and I can borrow an old transformer from him.

Marc

[Anonymous]

I agree with Allan....get rid of the CW-80. I have one currently from the PE set and I am already working on getting a Z-4000 and when I do my CW-80 is getting the boot. The command engines run better from a 'pure-sine wave' transformer like the Z-4000 and the MRC Pure Dual; the CW-80 outputs a 'cropped sine-wave'.

I know from your original post you're not technically minded, but I can bet my money 100% that the CW is the problem. Get rid of it and get a better transformer; I am sure that should solve the issues you're having.

[Anonymous]

hobo79,

Nothing I have read so far convinces me that the CW-80 is at fault. Of course it's possible, but it's also possilbe the the CW-80 is performing as designed. For example, the blinking and dimming green light is trying to tell you that there is a current-overload or short-circuit somewhere on the layout..

What is needed is a systematic, logical diagnostic process. "Lionelsoni "and "chuckn" and a few others can doubtless help you if you will do this. You need to be systematic and patient, and to avoid changing more than one thing at a time.

First, get everything having to do with "Command Control" out of the circuit. Use only traditional locomotives, with no cars behind them. Take the switches out of the track. Make sure there is at least one small lamp wired across the outputs of the CW-80 as it "doesn't like" zero loads.

Wire a small fast-blow fuse between the transformer and the track. Then start adding items one at a time to see if all is well. (This is a bare-bones outline of the procedure.)

By all means substitute another transformer(s) as part of this process.

If you can get everything to work properly in strict "conventional" operation, then have a whack at some of the fancier stuff.

If, at the end of all this, if you will state that the CW-80 does not appear to be "blown" I will pay shipping charges should you want to get rid of it.

wolverine49

[Anonymous]

I am waiting for my buddy to get back from NY. I am going to borrow one of his ancient Lionel transformers, 90watt I think. I'll let you all know. Strangly I hope you are all right even though I don't reli***he idea of buying a new transformer.
I returned one CW-80 already. My local store owner said the 2005 models and there after work fine, problems resolved. However, when I returned it yesterday the owner wasn't there. His helper is a know it all and you can't tell him anythin. He went in the back and got me another 2004 model CW-80. When I told him what the boss said he didn't want to be bothered and basically said to take it and if that one didn't work we'll try another.

Marc

[Anonymous]

80-90 watts is pretty small unless you are only running basic set and very few accessories. Lionel used to (I mean back in the PW era) make a line of transformers with different power handling cabilities and features. We now have basic starter set units and BOOM, monster supplies in the 360 watt and beyond class (with prices to match).

Waveform output is unlikely to cause the problems you are seeing. The oddball arrangement of the "common" in the CW may be messing up the TMCC signal or worse, creating return current loops and back EMF which switching power supplies do not get along with. Try the setup with the PW unit, try to be careful or place some quick blow in line fuses. My only complaint with most PW supplies are the old style thermal breakers will smoke modern electronics before the thermal breaker trips.

[Anonymous]

To add just a little to chuckn's latest point, the PW transformers were rated on the basis of their power draw -- not output. Ostensibly, the modern ones are rated on output. If this is so, the PW Lionel 1033 would only put out about 60 watts pure sine wave to the track, whereas a CW-80 should put out at least 80 in a gawd-only-knows waveform.

In practice, running "conventionally," I find there to be little difference in output. In actual tests my CW-80 will out-pull my 1033, everything else being equal -- but not by all that much.

Both were included with "starter sets" and ought not be expected to handle heavy loads. What's the difference between them under load? Well, in my experience the CW-80 will start blinking it's green pilot light long before it conks out; whereas the 1033 just gets hotter and hotter, potentially cooking the internal insulation until (MAYBE) the old thermal circuit breaker finally opens. (As said previously, I fuse both types, at around 5 amps.)

Which transformer is likely to be running as designed (excluding the circuit breaker) after 50 years? Most likely the 1033.

I agree with chuckn's point that BOTH of these transformers are quite low-powered (read inadequate) for many modern layouts, and some, (certainly including the CW-80) are sensitive to misunderstood instructions and different kinds of equipment and hook-ups.

This is why any logical diagnostic process ought to begin with a back-to-basics approach, in my opinion.

Those of you who have followed my ramblings over the last couple of years might have noticed that I have never advised going out and buying a CW-80. Rather, I have tried to counsel a thorough understanding of the instructions and a little patience with the ones people already own.

wolverine49

[Anonymous]

wolverine49

Thanks. Sounds like you are saying I simply need a more powerful transformer. That may be the trick. The trains running on command do seem to work better with no consist. As far as my setup and the fuses etc., I have the power running into a TMCC lockon and then to the track. It was my understanding that I wouldn't need the fuses b/c the lockon acts as the circuit breaker. If my trains run well with no consist, do you think in fact I simply need a more powerul transformer?

Marc

[Anonymous]

One more follow up, and I feel kind of stupid now, but I just ran my Command engines w/out any consist and they almost ran perfect. I just never thought I would need more power on a 5x8' layout. I have about 9 powered accessories and 3 remote swithces. However, I had tried running the trains and consists w/the accessories dissconnected and it didn't make any difference. Like I said, no consist makes a huge difference. Can someone reccomend a transformer? Or should I simply add another CW-80? Can I run two CW-80's in line, i.e., can I splice the A and U cables from each together and then directly into the TMCC lockon? Will this give me 160 watts?

Thanks

Marc

[Anonymous]

hobo79,

I have ZERO experience with anything associated with TMCC, and I will not offer advice on anything with which I am unfamiliar.

What I have had considerable experience with is the CW-80 running conventionally: Post A to center rail; Post U-under-A to an outside rail; 5 amp inline fuse, and at least one 14 or 18 volt lamp connected somewhere such that is is effectively across the center and outside rails; that is, so that it operates as a constant small load on the CW-80. I use illuminated lockons on tubular track, but understand that LIonel makes a special section for FasTrack that contains just such a load. Some folks just use an illuminated caboose. An illuminated passenger car would do also, as long as it is working reliably. I'd put the last two on a siding so as not to interfere with operational testing.

The fast blow fuse is supposed to help protect the transformer and the locomotive from overcurrents. It may or may not do this, but I can substantiate that it's quite good at keeping tigers away. [;)]

The lamp keeps the CW-80 happy and, in some cases at least, makes the cycling of the reversing unit (the "E-unit") more reliable. Without reliable cycling of the reversing unit, manipulating the direction button and the throttle lever on the CW-80 become frustrating experiences.

One thing you probably have noticed is that even when they are working correctly, the throttle and directional control on the CW-80 ramp up slowly; that is, there is a noticible lag between when the direction button (or the throttle lever) is pushed and the appearance of power. This may be causing some confusion. It's a "feature," not a "bug," but some operators do not like it..

Many locos run better in one direction than the other; and certainly it takes more power to start a loco from a standstill than it does to keep it running straight and level. So, sometimes one needs to add a little power when shifting directions, or going up hills, or around curves, etc. Doubtless you know this. My point is, that with the "ramp-up" throttle on the CW-80 you need some experience with it under the best of circumstances. If the reverse unit on the loco is not cycling reliably, control of the train becomes a nightmare.

As far as I can tell from this distance, there are several things going on that are causing your frustration. Why are some cars "shorting" and/or derailing on the switches? Does this only happen when the train approaches the switch from the "V" end with the switch set against the direction of the train's motion. If so, this suggests that the anti-derailing feature (if any -- I don't have any experience with FasTrack either) is not wired correctly or is not getting enough voltage. (This last problem is why many people power their switches with a voltage other than track voltage; but with the CW-80 this opens a whole new can of worms.)

My initial reading of your problems on both forums suggested to me a number of separate and distinct problems, from shorting to derailing, and from possible overloading to e-units not cycling correctly. Combining all these possibilities with some kind of a mix of traditional (postwar) and modern (TMCC) equipment has overloaded my ability to diagnose.

Maybe the CW-80 is at the bottom of some of the problems, but I am not yet persuaded; and I think that people who don't analyze a problem but simply shout "junk the CW" are not doing much of a service to someone like me, for instance: a senior citizen on a broken income.

I am a little worried about the date of manufacture of your CW-80, as there were some problems (supposedly) with a batch produced in 2004, but I have earlier and later models, and -- after hooking them up as I have suggested -- have had zero problems.

Having said all that, let me say EVERYONE eventually wants bigger transformers and more of them, just as everyone who buys a boat sooner or later wants a bigger one. But your CW-80, if it is working correctly, should run a single or dual-motor locomotive and (say) four illuminated passenger cars on level track with no problems. (Ironically, it may do so at such low throttle settings that the switches (turnouts) do not function properly. But, one thing at a time.)

You have clearly shown the ability to consider what is going on and to make the beginnings of logical diagnoses of what is going on. I use the plural, because I think more than one thing is wrong. Clearly this diagnostic process, tedious as it may be, is enhanced by the ability to swap devices in and out, including transformers, and noting what changes occur.

That's what I think you need to do, and will try to help, but it's not easy at a distance. Furthermore, others, like the aforementioned "lionelsoni" and "chuckn" (and some others) are much better at it than I am.

Good luck. You can figure this out.

Feel free to keep asking, but be as specific as you can with what you are using , what you have tried, and what happened.

wolverine49

[Anonymous]

Indeed, the problem may not be with the transformer, but I still suspect that it is. That's why I suggest trying another transformer first, to see if that eliminates any trouble you may be having. If you can at least borrow one temporarily, that wil save a lot of other testing and fixes because it will narrow things down to the primary culprit.

I know that the CW80 I have did strange things with locomotives of various makes, and I just couldn't rely on consistent, reliable performance. Changed it out for an MTH Z1000, and all the problems disappeared. Ditto for when I tried an old Lionel 1033.

[Anonymous]

Do not try to "tie" two CW-80's together like that. If you need to break down the layout into "power districts", you can feed one district off of one transformer and the other off of the other transformer.

There are devices that work the way you described, like the TPC's that will accept two to three powerhouse bricks to drive them. Big difference is that the bricks are raw step down transformers with no controls. The TPC provides the control. Your CW-80's have the controls built in. You would have to exactly match the transformer outputs to prevent problems like current flowing in the "wrong" direction. e.g. one transformer is set at 14 volts, other at 12. There is a 2 volt difference and there will be back current flow from the higher voltage unit to the lower voltage unit. On a traditional step down transformer this would result in some heat build up. A switching power supply will behave very erraticaly under these circumstances.

[Anonymous]

Hobo79,

Listen to "chuckn" -- based on my reading of his posts over the last couple of years, he is an authority.

Toy railroading can be a lot of complexity and frustration. I tend to keep things simple and largely electro-mechanical (postwar) rather than electronic (modern) but I do make exceptions. Don't give up yet.

For a sample of how complex it can get (if you let it) check out the thread currently on this forum marked entitled "ZW rescue needed" by "rwest."

My CW-80's all appear to behave as designed. I have seen no safety issues nor have I had any problems of "unreliability." Others have and they doubtless have your best interests at heart. Even to me it sounds as if the CW-80 is too small for your layout. I would be inclined to use the CW80 to run the trains, and get an inexpensive postwar transformer for the accessories. Some would recommend the opposite. In any event, I would keep the accessories and the track electrically isolated from each other. With some accessories, such as those which use a "common ground" with the track, this is not possible.* That's when you have to be very careful how you hook up a CW-80.

Just for the record, let me state what I don't like about the CW-80:
1. The infamous "lack of a common ground" -- a design problem;
2. The "ramp-up throttle due to its poor "feedback," although some have said it is easier on rubber tires than the jackrabbit-start type;
3. The fact that it's not designed to be serviced, and that neither Lionel nor its authorized service stations will service it.
4. The warranty policy: although clearly stated in the owners manual, the policy stinks: no support after one year: no service, no refund, no replacement.. No transfer of the warranty, and other such "paper issues."
5. It has been a public relations disaster for Lionel, and a MAJOR TURNOFF forr new entrants into the model train hobby.
6. Quality control issues of the first magnitude.(Possibly corrected, finally.)
7. Inconsistencies within the owner's manual and between manuals;
8. Lionel's almost complete silence on the subject:

I do like:
a. Having the one-piece unit ,as opposed to controller-and-brick;
b. the physical appearance;
c. the programmable "fixed" voltage accessory output -- despite it's "common-ground" limitations, esp. with regard to turnouts;
d. the cooling fan;
e. the smooth continuous throttle operation all the way from 0 to 18 volts;
f. the built-in horn/whistle and bell controls;
g. the relatively small "footprint,"
h. the sockets for banana plug connectors;
i. the apparently safe operation of modern electronic horns and bells;
j. the pilot light/overload indicator;
k. the Underwriters Laboratories certification;
l. the fact that mine have always worked -- so far.

I hope this puts things in perspective. Any questions? Please fire away.

*I know, I know. You can reverse polarity to the track and use a "Dymo labeler" or the like to make new labels for the horn and bell buttons. I have a Dymo labeler but I refuse to cave-in to this solution. Others seem to find it satisfactory. It has the virtue of economy, certainly, and is supported in some of Lionel's literature.

wolverine49

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys very much. I am thinking it really has to be that the CW-80 is just overloeaded with what I have attached.
Thinking about buying LIONEL POWERSTATION 135 WATT POWER SUPPLY set 6-12938. Its a two piece set, the controller (station) and a 135 watt brick transformer.
Any known issues with the set?

[willpick]

Hobo, I have 2 of those, they served me well when I got back into O . With 5 amps of track power, and 2 amps from the fixed 14VAC accessory output, It ran all the engines I had (only 3 back then). What is nice is that it has the whistle and bell buttons, so I could activate my MTH PS1 engines sound bites. It also has a VERY fast acting overload feature(helps protect all those chinese electronics[:D]).
I stopped using them when I bought a Z4000, but i'm keeping them as backup power if my Z4000 ever dies.

[Anonymous]

Problem SOLVED. It is the transformer or lack of power in the CW-80.

Just hooked up my buddies old Lionel 125 Watt and everything ran perfect "like butter".

Now I have to figure out what I want to replace the CW-80 with.

Thanks to All


Marc

[Buckeye Riveter]

Although, I don't own a CW-80, and never have, this has been one great post to learn about the problems. [tup]

The one thing I did not see mentioned was that the Fastrack Switches are supposedly set up for TMCC operation that really hasn't been developed. There was a post about this sometime ago where someone opened up a switch and showed us the inside circuitry.

[2c] Buy the 180 Watt Brick for future expansion.

[Anonymous]

In the final analysis, what is important in the short run is for hobo79 and his little boy get to play with their new trains -- without further delay.

In the longer run, however, I continue to have "issues." If anyone is willing to do a little more thinking on the subject, please bear with me.....

It certainly appears that this particular CW-80 running the "full" layout is not putting out enough power , although it apparently will run a light load in conventional operation. So what is overloading the transformer to the point of inoperability? Is it something internal to the CW, or is there still an electrical "fault" somewhere on the track, in the connections, or in the accessory devices?

For example, the ongoing thread by "darianj" regarding a high failure rate he has experienced with FasTrack switches is disquieting -- and. hobo79 has several of them. Also, a consist of several illuminated passenger cars can produce both mechanical drag and electrical loads that are sometimes surprising, especially when combined with several accessories. So there's still plenty of room for gremlins....

As I understand it, the CW-80 has a self-protective circuit that automatically reduces power when it senses an overload. Perhaps it is malfunctioning, and cutting the output too soon, but perhaps it is just doing its job. Can anyone calculate just how much electrical load hobo79's layout is placing on the transformer. Is it an "overload situation " as set up?

Yesterday I was running an PW Lionel 681 single-motor steamer with tender, seven (7) illuminated 2400 series Lionel passenger cars, a few additional lamps, and an old-fashioned air-whistle. For the most part it ran great. Then, all of the sudden, it didn't run great -- it acted as if it wasn't getting enough power. No sparks, no excitment of any kind, but the green overcurrent light on the CW-80 began blinking rapidly. I found a one-wheel derailment on one of the passenger cars. The wheel was sliding smoothly along an outside rail, but not touching the center rail -- that is, dragging but not shorting. Subtle, but very real. It did not blow my 5-amp fuse, nor, I think, would it have tripped the circuit-breaker on a PW transformer, but the CW "caught" it. I re-railed it, and all was well again.

On hobo's layout, why did the borrowed postwar (?) 125 watt transformer do well where the CW-80 wouldn't? I'm not sure. The best guess is a bad CW-80 -- it is a 2004 model after all.* But another possibility is that the postwar transformer has a stuck circuit breaker. Heaven only knows how much power it is capable of shoving into a minor short circuit with no the power-reduction circuitry to cut it off. How hot could it get?

I don't know, but I would strongly suggest testing the circuit-breaker on the 125 watt device, or, if the owner doesn't want to risk it, at least putting a 5 to 7 amp fuse fast-blow fuse between it and the track., and to check the transformer often to see that it is not getting HOT. (Warm is OK., but one doesn't want to risk catastrophic overheating, expecially where kids are concerned. IF there is a problem external to the CW-80, (big if) it will still be there regardless of what transformer is employed next.)

If my math is correct, a postwar "125 watt" transformer should only deliver about 84 watts total to the track and accessories in normal operation. This is only 4 watts more than the CW-80 is SUPPOSED to produce. Clearly something is not right somewhere.

I realize that hobo79 wants to get on enjoying his trains, but I would hope he would take the 2004* model CW-80 back to his dealer, INSIST on a "2006 model" replacement, and let us know whether it works -- especially in conventional mode. (I have no idea what the TMCC stuff does to or with the output of the CW-80 and I realize that hobo wants to get on with running stuff, but I would appreciate more info on conventional operation.) "Inquiring minds want to know," and all that.

Also, I would ask the dealer to test-run run BOTH the 2004 and 2006 model CW-80's in conventional mode (at least) on a small layout, to try to determine what works and what doesn't. If it is an authorized Lionel dealer, and he repeats the inexcusable treatment hobo79 reported re his last visit, I would write a formal letter of complaint to Lionel.

Perhaps I have missed something, but I am not clear how hobo has been powering his accessories with the CW-80 (using the accessory terminals "B" and "U under B", or what?) and whether any of the accessories are "grounded" to the track, either deliberately or inadvertently.

*if a new 2006 model CW-80 STILL won't work (in conventional mode, at least) and doesn't "blow up[" in the process of testing, my offer to take it off hobo79's hands by paying standard shipping charges PLUS some amount (to be negotiated) for his time and trouble still stands.

Frankly, I'm much more interested in completing the "differential diagnosis" process than I am in obtaining yet another CW-80, but I'm also willing to put my (limited) funds where my mouth is. I will keep this offer open as long as possible, all within the constraints of my current precarious health, of course.

*Ostensibily, there was a "bad batch" dated 7/2004 or the like. Truth or urban myth? (I know, I know. They're ALL bad. [:)])

wolverine49

[palallin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wolverine49


As I understand it, the CW-80 has a self-protective circuit that automatically reduces power when it senses an overload. Perhaps it is malfunctioning, and cutting the output too soon, but perhaps it is just doing its job.

I have a BW-80 with the same feature, and it will not run my '93 vintage Frisco Mikado (CTT's test of the mechanically identical Southern version indicated about a 3-amp draw). Lionel service advisors suggested to me via email that the transformer is not up to such a heavy draw. A 1033, however, handles the engine just fine.

*sigh*

[Anonymous]

Wolverine

Thanks for all your help.

My buddies PW 125 can't have a stuck short. I hooked it to my track through a TMCC direct lockon which has a circuit breaker in it and it was also hooke to the lockon via cable that has a fuse in line. If there is a short the lockon trips.
My accessories are connected via the accessory posts (red and black) and are not grounded to the track. I have 3 MTH buildings and 5 Lionel accessories (the Hobo series stuff).
I am going over to the train shop on Saturday. The boss should be there. I will ask him to swap it out again for a 2005 or later model.

Thanks

Marc

[casconi]

Hobo,
Try hooking back up your CW-80 and bring it to full power for TMCC. On your TMCC remote press TR then 1 then turn the red knob like you would to start an engine. Some newer transformers like my new ZW need to have the power turned on manually because it is communicating with the command base. The 4 posts on my ZW are TR 1-4. A=1 B=2 C=3 D=4. Since you only have on throttle, I would assume it is assigned 1.
I'm not sure if the CW is anything like this, but it might be worth a try.

I was having the same sort of problems you are having. I discovered this trick and now my transformer works like a charm. I have a CW-80 also, but I do not have it hooked up to anything. I'll try it for you tomorrow, but in the mean time, I would try my suggestion.

Good luck and let me know.

Chris

[casconi]

On the note of the Fastrack Swithes working with TMCC, they work great on my layout. I have about 20 072 hooked up on their own power and they are controlled via TMCC SC-2 switch machines. They only problem is that you can only hook up 5 FT switches to an SC-2, not 6.
I am able to create routes for the engines and throw any switch I want from my remote.
I def. recommend FT and all it has to offer. I have experienced no problems whatsoever on my layout. I run the JLC GG-1 and a TMCC NH ALCO PA ABBA. Both work great and have '72 passenger cars. They never stall or lose signal over switches.

Chris

[Anonymous]

palallin,

Are you saying that a Lionel representative told you that the CW-80 couldn't handle a 3-amp locomotive all by itself, i.e, with no other load on the transformer? That would certainly explain a lot, although it seems a bit low in my experience....

Does anybody have the necessary equipment to actually do a measurement of what their CW-80 can actually put out; or a reference to an unbiased test from a journal? I seem to have lost my copy of a major review of the CW-80 that I saw in CTT (or maybe it was in the other major O-gauge magazine -- pardon the "senior moment") from about 3 years ago?

wolverine49

[Anonymous]

casconi,

Your posts look extremely interesting. I hope hobo79 will give your suggestions a try and report back.

wolverine49

[palallin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wolverine49

palallin,

Are you saying that a Lionel representative told you that the CW-80 couldn't handle a 3-amp locomotive all by itself, i.e, with no other load on the transformer? That would certainly explain a lot, although it seems a bit low in my experience....

wolverine49

Be careful: I typed "BW-80. That's the one that has a case like the CW-80 but a separate brick. I added the comment only because it acts just as the CW-80 in question here is acting. And, yes, that is precisely what the Lionel rep told me. I still have the email somewhere. To be frank, the low performance is disappointing: if a 1033 (postwar 027 set transfromer) can handle the load (and more), the modern 80 watt unit should be able to.

I, too, am looking for more power. If I can find a decent deal on an MRC unit, I'll probably go that way. Or a good KW for a price I can handle. But I have become leery of the modern Lionel units.

[Anonymous]

hobo79

I certainly hope things are going better for you trainwise, and thank you for listening. Please let us know what transformer you decide to use.

I guess I wasn't clear about the (admittedly unlikely) thought I had about the possibility of the "125 watt" postwar transformer that you borrowed having a stuck circuit breaker, and hence putting out amounts of power. above its rating. Also, because you are relatively new to this hobby, please consider a few thoughts that have stood me in good stead over the years, especially regarding "postwar" transformers.

1. The old thermal/mechanical circuit breakers were designed to protect the transformer -- not any equipment nor personnel down the line -- and they do fail. They are virtually worthless in protecting modern electronic equipment will all the circuit-boards and the like.

For example, the vaunted Lionel 1033, listed at 90 watts, was factory set to "...supply about 60 watts continuously with continuous current load of 5 amperes."* The circuit breaker was designed to open after "seven or eight seconds" --- an eternity where modern electronics are concerned.

Furthermore, the breakers often failed, either through someone's mischief or age and usage. Specifically, "...breakers which have become overheated by remaining under short circuit conditions for a long time will sometimes lose their calibration, and either take a longer time to break or fail to open altogether. "(Emphasis mine.)

Under these conditions, who knows how much power even a small PW transformer could put out? More than once I have literally welded wheels to track !

2. Hookups of transformer (to track or accessories) that use certain combinations of posts on certain postwar transformers bypass the circuit breaker completely. Some older transformers, still available today, contain no circuit breaker at all! Should you consider buying or borrowing one of these you would reallly need to get a manual and study it.

3. Many old transformers employ a "power "boost" circuit when the whistle button is pressed. They could conceivably fry modern electronics. Lionel long warned NEVER to attempt to blow the whistle during a short circuit -- advice that may also apply to modern transformers, but I don't have a reference fot it.

*Source: all of the above quotations were taken from the Complete Service Manual for Lionel Trains by K-LINE, 1982 edition, pages 627 ff.

Having said all that, in another thread, where I had somehow given the impression that I was overly fond of the CW-80, I noted that my actual recommendation was "to buy the biggest, baddest transformer that you can fit through the door." I have not changed that opinion.

I hope this proves useful as you decide what to hook up to what, so that you and yours can enjoy running trains for many years. It really can be fun and safe!.


wolverine49

[Anonymous]

palallin,

Thanks for the update. The fact is that even these old bifocals recognized that you were referring specifically to the BW-80, but. I generalized your comments to apply also to the similarly-rated CW-80.

I know better than to make such assumptions, but it seemed like a good idea at the time. [}:)]

I gotta do something else for a while!

wolverine49