Why do toy train companies make non-prototype Loco's and rolling stock?

[tsgtbob]

See, I straddle that fence (ouch, watch the splinters) being both a toy train operator and a 2 rail scale O modeler.
Did the B&O ever have PA-1s? No. Did I buy a pair from Jerry Williams? You betcha! They look beautiful. Would I convert them to 2 rail so I could run them on my 2 rail layout? Again no. Why? Beacuse in 2 rail, I model Chessie in the 70s, and they would sure look out of place.
The toy train hobby is vastly different than the scale hobby. In 2 rail, I have to scratchbuild almost everything that I want for structures and scenery (although it has gotten easier recently as far as scale sized structures and trees go) where in the toy layout, I can get almost any kind of plasticville building that my heart desires. I can run Flyer with Lionel with Marx, with MTH, and the world is good. Plus, ever try to get an 86 foot HyCube boxcar to go around 031 curves?
(I have, it went, but looked so stupid it was actually funny)
I model for my own pleasure, I run Toy Trains for the pure joy of smelling the SP smoke, the clank of Milk Cans from a Milk Car, ot the THWACK of the Brakeman car guy doing a face plant on the top of a car.
Two different worlds.
Both are fun in their own way.

[Chris F]

Doctor,

Focusing my speculations on the examples you provided -

Williams N5C cabooses in almost every railroad name. I agree with those who suggest die amortization. Paint masks are cheap compared to the body molds. Mold as many bodies as possible and decorate them in all the road names that have a chance of selling.

Williams F7 in Daylight scheme. Ever since he started reproducing Lionel prewar pieces, Jerry Williams has been a student of Lionel's production. In the case of the F7, I suspect he was considering Lionel's extremely popular 8260/62 F3 A-A's from 1982-83. This set was relatively rare, and Williams may have figured there still was significant demand for a cab-unit set in the Daylight scheme. Did he also produce a B-unit? The Lionel SP Daylight F3 dummy B-unit is so rare it's valued at more than the A-A combination.

K-Line ALCo in SP Black Widow paint. Hard to guess on this one. Black Widow graphics less expensive than Daylight graphics? Even in it's early days. K-Line seemed to do pretty good with their decoration. BW scheme not done before?

I recently got a Lionel C&NW RS-3 with very nice graphics, especially considering RS-3's are Lionel's cheapest locos. The nit-pick is that the loco's number is 198, a number never used by the C&NW for any type of its locos. I've got a reference book showing a picture of a picture of C&NW RS-3 1503 that is a good match to the Lionel except for the number. Could four numbers cost that much more than three? Lionel has researchers to check on that stuff - why not use the right number? Ah, well, it's just a toy...

[brianel027]

Thank you very much Jack. I have said in other words much of what you elaborated on. But it is very nice to read the points being made from someone in the first person position of knowing.

It is hardly rocket science really. What does amaze me is that modelers who are otherwise intellligent, chances are with a college degree, and yet cannot understand the simple business point of not being able to financially justify making every odd ball piece and idea that comes along. And making it at such a detail level that the price point keeps it out of the hands of the masses.

It seems to be a tough pill for some to swallow but the numbers I see consistantly show that the majority of 3-rail modelers are traditionally sized non command operators with table top sized layouts.

Aside from the well known legal/integrity/theft problems K-Line brought upon themselves, go though the last several years of catalogs and count all the new pieces derived from new tooling. Then go through the magazines and count those same pieces being advertised as blowouts. The lesson is clear, and for K-Line, unfortunately profound.

[3railguy]

F&G is right. To save money on tooling. Plus they are made to be toys. If you want scale models that are near prototypically correct, buy Atlas O or imported brass and don't whine about the prices.

[Bucksco]

Here's something to think about.
There is a train called the Glacier Express that runs through the Swiss Alps. The passenger cars on this train are a wonderful blue. The Locomotives that pull the train have always been painted green. A while back LGB decided to take some license and paint one of these locos blue to match the coaches.
All of the "purists" out there complained that it was horrible because it wasn't prototypical. The model sold out - quickly I might add. The railroad liked it so much that they recently painted the actual locomotive blue and put LGB logos on it!
Go figure!

[Train Memories]

I fully agree with Dr. Fu-Manchue. These trains that we're dealing here with are not cheap (at lease not the ones I'm buying). That's why Lionel and MTH, etc go to to great lenths to make the Locos and cars very detail on every thing. So I want a perfect engine when I get one. Take a look at the N scale trains or HO gauge! It better come out perfect in every way including the pain schemes or thier customers WILL complain.
But then..it depends what certain people will settle for.
doggieday

[Jumijo]

Lionel Lines ran in every corner of this country, and a good deal of Canada as well.

Jim

[IRONROOSTER]

This happens all the time on the scale side too. Especially with steam locomotives. Every road seems to have a different version of each steam locomotive type - in fact most large roads had multiple versions, i.e the famous PRR K4 - there was a K1, K2, K3, and even a K5. Manufacturers can't afford to produce every variation. Only small runs of brass locomotives avoid this issue, but you pay for it in higher prices.
Enjoy
Paul

[DCmontana]

Simple reason, they are fun! Another simple reason, they sell and make money! Simplest reason of all, there are people that work or own companies that produce toy trains and they turn that stuff out because they know that somewhere there is a rivet counter that will go nuts when he/she sees it advertised or finds it in a train store! Good for lots of laughs at work!

[FJ and G]

Mark Twain once said something to the effect that working on a riverboat takes all the fun out of riverboating, meaning that instead of enjoying the passing scenery, it's all business, checking water depth, charts, etc etc.

I think one reason I've not been too fussy (although somewhat more than DCmontana[:D]) is b/c I don't really know that much about how the prototype is supposed to look. Well, I CAN tell a GG-1 apart from a Sharknose and I can even differentiate an F-3 from an FT, but there are just far too many variations of trains that I don't have the time nor the inclination to study each modification, revision, custom- or trick-job; and believe me, there are many.

Take a lowly GP38-2. There are so many different styles to those alone as to be bewildering.

I suppose that if I were the engineer on one, I'd want it to pretty much look the way I knew it.

But since I'm not, I can be satisfied with a fairly close representation. I try to avoid purchasing models that didn't exist in particular roadnames by searching online or asking questions.

The other thing you can always do is modify or kitba***he item you like.

Actually, the poster of this post writes: "Why do toy train companies make non-prototype Loco's and rolling stock?"

Sir,

I've seen fantasy schemes in HO too! Quite a number, actually.

And, among the rivet counters, there are the free lancers, whose entire fleet is a fantasy scheme.

Soooo, I don't think there's really a simple answer here.

[Anonymous]

Just curious here,but how many of us out there,including mwself,run GG1's & EP5's without overhead wires??? Easter

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by easter

Just curious here,but how many of us out there,including mwself,run GG1's & EP5's without overhead wires??? Easter

I run my American Models GG1 without the wire.
Enjoy
Paul

[brianel027]

Dave F&G, you'll enjoy this one.... true story...

Some years ago I heard a train horn blowing near-by and went to check it out. Glad I did because there before me was a Conrail U-Boat. Amazing I thought! I was excited as I thought these big boys had all been moth-balled. Just goes to show that even on the real prototype, odd things do happen that many modelers would think don't or can't. Ha ha.

One of the cab engineers saw the big smile on my face and started talking. As I was asking questions about the locomotive's history the engineer said "All I know is that it's big and blue, hauls train cars, eats diesel fuel and helps with my paycheck."

So there you have it... prototypical operation on the real prototype in words that an 8-year could understand... and that the 8-year old might have typically said himself. There's a prototypical idea for a conversation for Lionel's "Crew Talk."

There's one train engineer that I could imagine if he was a 3-railer is hardly concerned with chuff rates, headlight or marker light placement, whether the truck sides are accurate or whether the trout in the Gil Finn Aquarium Car really look like trout.

I'd have that guy over to my house to run trains long before others... I think he'd have fun just running the trains instead of counting the rivets!!! And when I run my Conrail painted K-Line Alco S-2 (which the Conrail didn't have), he'll know that's prototypically correct: it's big and blue and it hauls train cars!!!

[Anonymous]

Ironrooster You will never know how much you have missed of running those electric engines under live wire. Felix

[Anonymous]

One point you all seem to forget is that MTH makes models for everyone, scale, non scale, toy etc. They have all the bases covered with an outstanding line.[tup]

[tschmidt]

So does Lionel so what's the difference?

TomS

[Bucksco]

Let's not go down the Lionel/MTH dead end road- please?!?!
The point is that ANY manufacturer can produce ANY type of product. It's the individual's choice as to whether they want to purchase them or not (and not kvetch about why they don't like them).

[palallin]

I note two voices in this thread which, in chorus, seem to lament that so many of us are willing to "settle" for "improper" trains. I don't feel that I am settling" I made a deliberate choice some years ago to express my interest in railroading in this manner. I really don't know what "improper" means int his context aside from a vague feeling of being wrong. In the matter of personal preference on trains, I don't believe any moral judgments apply . I have noticed, though, that certain adherents of the hobby--usually those who strive hard to one-up others--too often make judgments on both the morality and intelligence of folks who do not see the hobby their way. Indeed, those adherents factored large in my decision to work in O 3-rail.

[Anonymous]

Thor - THERE'S A BUBBLE BLOWING THOMAS?!?!?

I want one!

Uh, what was the question?

Old 2037

[marxalot]

QUOTE: Originally posted by easter

Just curious here,but how many of us out there,including mwself,run GG1's & EP5's without overhead wires??? Easter

Hey, I'm just happy to have the outer loop on some cork roadbed at the moment! And the Williams GG1 looks great on it. I've become quite good at imagining catenary. It would be nice to have.... maybe someday....... yes.... a future project!

[JamesShannon]

The model train hobby is about fun, creativivity, imagination, escapism etc.... you must suspend disbalief and get those trains moving. If you are a diehard slave to scale perfection and prototype exactness then ignore the stuff that does not work for you. I personally enjoy all aspects of the hobby from exacting hi-rail detail to the more whimsical tinplate combined with Dept. 56.

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by felixg

Ironrooster You will never know how much you have missed of running those electric engines under live wire. Felix

True. But I just don't like the look of overhead wire.
Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by palallin

I have noticed, though, that certain adherents of the hobby--usually those who strive hard to one-up others--too often make judgments on both the morality and intelligence of folks who do not see the hobby their way. Indeed, those adherents factored large in my decision to work in O 3-rail.

I agree, the MTH/Lionel wars are a distraction to the hobby.

Bill

[Anonymous]

"You say Potatoe, I say Potawto. You say Tomatoe, I say Tomawto."

Good Comments Everyone. Count all the rivets you want, but at the end of the day it's still running on 3 rail track! So what's the point?

Greg
Long live the V&T, and ARMY C Rations.

[Anonymous]

How about this for a cost cutting way to put a Road Name on a nearly identical freight car.

Atlas O model of the ACF Coalveyor II Coal Gondolas.

Union Pacific Coal Gondolas originally in the UP 34000 and 35000 number series now renumbered to the UP 97000 and 98000 number series.

Union Pacific has a licencing agreement with Atlas O. The cars are very close, unless inserts can be made at a reasonable cost for the injection mold, those two types of coal gondolas are close enough.

The only way to make everything more accurate is to plan ahead and have many inserts for the injection molds.

The best example for this is the LIONEL PS-1 Box Cars which have several door options. Of course that is high end car.

Low end cars do not get the flexible tooling options like the high end cars, that is why the markings and the car types often do not match up as the road names get more modern.

Andrew F.

[Anonymous]

Some of the schemes appear to be a "What If This Happened" type of concept.

Consider the Soo Line Stock Car in the MTH RailKing Line. They could have made the markings prototypical to match the 19th Century Box Car, but they had a bit of fun with the Stock Car by applying 1974 colors and graphics. Reality is that the Soo Line Stock Cars were out of service by 1971.

Sometime reality is too drab and boring.

Andrew Falconer

[FJ and G]

Skim thru this thread and you will see why it is that toy train types have a fondness for the more charming and whimsical side of the hobby:

http://www.the-gauge.com/archive/index.php/t-2758.html[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Frank53]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

Skim thru this thread and you will see why it is that toy train types have a fondness for the more charming and whimsical side of the hobby:

http://www.the-gauge.com/archive/index.php/t-2758.html[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

LOL - now THAT was funny. [:D]

[FJ and G]

Frank,

I had to stop reading that thread and slap myself up the side of my head before I got too interested in the discussion. [8D]

[dougdagrump]

I couldn't get interested, I kept nodding off.