Why do toy train companies make non-prototype Loco's and rolling stock?

[Dr.Fu-Manchu]

The Doctor Is In !!! Why is it that the toy train companies make a loco or a type of freight car/caboose that a certain railroad never had ? For example: K-Line made Alco's In the SP Black Widow paint, when they were painted in the daylight scheme to replace the GS Steamers. Or Williams making the NC5 porthole caboose in almost every railroad name. I bought a set of Williams F7's painted in the SP Daylight scheme, They were never painted that way. They were Black Widow, then the Bloody nose/ Gray paint till the end of their service for the line. Now, don't get me wrong, I love my K-line Alco's and my Williams F7's(got them at a good price) I am just wondering why the makers are doing it? Is there a big demand for items in improper paint or style of rolling stock? Or how about steam engines in road names/types that never were? Is someone doing a poll asking what people want and not caring if it was ever used by the railroad that it is painted/lettered for? is it market driven?
Any thoughts or comments?
Till My Next Missive, I Remain The Humble Yet Strangly Evil Doctor !!![}:)]

[darianj]

1 - I'm sure it's market driven. N2
o company now-a-days will spend the money to produce a product that they don't think is going to sell.

2 - Many people impulse buy and don't really THINK about that stuff.

3 - There are a lot of people out there that impulse buy, buy it because it looks unique or cool (like me) and don't really care if it's ever been on the real rails or not.

Just my [2c] for the dollar.

[trigtrax]

Simply because there is a difference between Toy Trains and Model Railroading.. I've never seen a real boxcar with floating alien bodies in it, or giraffes and dinosaurs bobbing out of a hole in the roof. The trend toward scale and prototypical paint schemes is a recent development in O-Gauge..... Remember there is a third rail running down the center of our track [:D]

[Anonymous]

Because they're TOY trains, and a good many folks--myself included--couldn't care less if a prototype road ever operated a particular piece of equipment. If an item is offered in my favorite roadname, and if I would like to have that item, I'll buy it just because I like it and without any concern whatsoever about whether the prototype ever ran such a thing.

I'm not in this hobby to please anyone else, or to faithfully conform with prototype practices in any way. I'm just in it for my personal enjoyment and relaxation. When I start worrying about rivet-counting accuracy and the like, I'll know it's time to devote my leisure time to some other activity.

I could be wrong, but I assume that the vast majority of folks who are into three-rail O gauge feel exactly the same way about these things. In recent years, the trend toward more accurate scale items has resulted in a whole lot of angst for some folks, and you see that reflected from time to time on the various forums. I enjoy reading their concerns, gripes, and woes, but it just makes me all the more happy that I don't see the hobby in quite that same way.

[thor]

Because they are TOYS!

To be perfectly honest I havent a clue as to what ran where or even why it matters but I do remember Railway Modeller (I think) used to run a photo a month called 'There's a prototype for Everything' in which they printed every conceivable kind of railway weirdness!

I always bought my trains on the basis of I liked the color or shape and I still do. In fact the more colorful the better. I wi***he TOY train makers would loosen up a bit and make some more oddball and old time stuff ESPECIALLY four wheel wagons and coaches such as might run on branch lines. These great big things take up too much room, I'd die for some early late 19th century British outline or even German stuff like ETS makes but plastic or whatever it takes to bring the price down. I can see in the interim I'm gonna have to make my own from Lego.

Mind you, I think there have to be some standards, "You are NOT running that bubble blowing Thomas on MY railroad and that's final!"

[Anonymous]

Hi thor I agree with you 100%. I too am limited to space and I'm forced to keep my track to diameters of 42" in. or less. As far as colors go, I get whatever set or pieces that please me. I like the ETS stuff but they are very scarce to find. I don't like the idea of relying to go to 1 or 2 LHS to get my supplies or have it repaired. It's a shame Trainword doesn't ETS. BTW I live in Ridgewood many years ago. My LHS was Naragasket Hardware on Fresh Pond RD. Felix

[brianel027]

Our pals Allan and Thor have hit the old proverbial railroad spike right on the head!

Many so-called intelligent folks don't even stop to think that every time a totally new train car is introduced, there is a tremendous amount of money invested into the brand new tooling and new dies. It simply isn't possible for train companies to make every little detail correctly for every respective railroad and still stay in business.

Again, I was buying K-Line while many other modelers wouldn't give their catalog a first look. When K-Line went all out to please the prototypical end of the hobby, they went all out all right... right out of business! The $6-10M debt they reportedly had was not from the production of the more toyish MARX/Kusan origin trains they once made! Instead they tried to please the people who obviously can never be pleased.

Williams and RMT do have the right idea of making items in as many roadnames as possible. Most buyers of this product really don't care as much as some outspoken folks on these train forums or at YORK would have you believe.

And if you really want to get PROTOTYPICAL, the real railroads made do with what they had on-hand. Companies like the Lehigh Valley typically rebuilt engines, altered and rebuilt cars and took advantage of what was available inorder to be profitable. The real railroads have been recycling long before that word became the household term it has become.

The toy train companies like Williams and RMT are operating in just as PROTOTYPICAL a fashion by issing items like the "Beep" in a wide variety of roadnames... Jerry and Walter are making due with the tooling they have and trying to please as many of their customers as they can and stay in business. And that my friends is just about as PROTOTYPICAL to real railroad operation as it gets.

And all the guys over on the other forum who keep wishing that for example, a true scale Centercab 44-ton switcher would be made- well it already has been made. BUT in brass as a limited run and at a price that reflects this. Some of the scale guys want true scale trains BUT at non-scale toy train prices! And that just isn't possible because of the capital tied up into the development and new dies. And again, what happened to K-Line was not from making TOY trains. Sure, folks bought the newer K-Line scale stuff, but they waited until the stuff was at blowout pricing first, and then cry because K-Line went under. I'm not crying about it (K-Line brought the whole mess upon themselves) and I was supporting K-Line from the beginning.

The reality of every true real-to-life train car and loco being made in exact prototypical detail is as about as likely as seeing a Floating Aliens box car heading down the real rails!

Clyde Coil's dang rants about what is wrong with the chuff rates or how there's a severe lack of scale stuff (wake up Clyde!!!) and the lack of ozone makes about as much sense as the operating Sheriff and Outlaw car and would require the young family who'd like to introduce the hobby to their boy to have the budget of a Franklin Mint car or an aging hippy rock star!! Dang again!!

When I got back in the hobby, I sat down with my shareholders and investors and got the facts and budget constraints. I had X-amount of space equaling 027 curves. I had X-amount of dollars which meant more affordable smaller engines are cars. When I consulted with the board and told them we needed some Norfolk Southern locomotives, I was told we'd have to rebuild and repaint some exisiting equipment. And if that ain't true prototypical railroading, then I don't know what is.

[Anonymous]

Well said, Brian! Well said!

And I have a hunch that even firms like Atlas have realized that there's a whole lot to be said (and profit to be realized) by devoting some increased attention to the traditional O gauge market, hence their acquisition of Industrial Rail.

That doesn't mean they're going to turn attention away from the fine scale-type products they've been producing in O gauge/scale; it just means that someone there has come to the realization that there's a broader, and someone easier, market for items that can be manufactured on a more cost-effective basis and that will ultimatley end up in more hands of people who will not be providing negative feedback every time a headlight is in a slightly wrong location, a steam pipe missing, or a sand dome that's too high or not appropriate for the (insert name here) railroad's prototype.

If I was in the manufacturing end of the model railroading hobby, that mass-market segment is sure what I would be trying to appeal to. After all, who needs the grief associated with producing high-end models that will only appeal to a relative handful of increasingly finnicky consumers?

I've often said that those of us in the hobby in recent years are proving to be our own worst enemy. You see so many demands seeking more for less. At some point, every manufacturer will eventually reach the conclusion that it's an exercise in futility to try to cater to every whim.

[csxt30]

My thought is that there is a market for them, as many of us Babyboomers return to the hobby, we remember how we played with them as a child. We knew nothing of what the real RR practices were unless we knew someone that worked on the RR. We didn't care if the caboose matched the name on the engine, cause some stuff I got was handed down from other family members. It seemed to me that anything would work back then. I think it was all about imagination ! Today though, I do lean to more prototypical practices, but that was after I had been in it off & on. When I started, I was doing it the way I was as a child, then went to more scale stuff.
Thanks,

[douellet]

"Why do toy train companies make non-prototype Loco's and rolling stock?" Because they sell. It's that simple. I think the key words here are "toy train companies". I for one would perfer toy train companies to produce more generic steam engines instead of all the NYC style Hudsons and Berkshires, but the bottom line is they sell. By the way I really enjoy running my non-prototype Beeps and can't wait for the BAR Beeps to be released. [:)]

[jimhaleyscomet]

One other point about Toy (which these are) miniatures. Whenever you make a copy of something (be it a painting, a model, or a caricature) it is not necessary to get every nuance to get the "feeling" across. You just need to emphasize the major points. People then use their imagination to fill in the rest. Wooden toys are an excellent example of this. Kids have no problems using imagination to fill in the blanks (think of the stick that becomes a gun, the box that becomes a castle). Perhaps us adults should take a cue from them.

If you want to build an exact replica use two rails and repaint just like most railroads do. If you want to have more fun with less stress than run three rails and purchase whatever looks good and successfully imparts the "image" of the railroad.

In my case I have realistic trees, rocks, and cliffs on my railroad. However my buildings are plastic and my railroad names vary from NYC to the Santa Fe to Thomas. Using all eastern or all western railroads might be more prototypical. However, I choose to believe we might of seen all these railroads togther in Chicage (exept perhaps Thomas). Besides, I want to run both the Santa Fe and the Pennsylvania. I have yet to meet a youngster who would comment that "You do not run prototypical equipment" or "You would never see those lines together". Usually the opposite happens and we have every line (NYC, UP, Penn, Santa Fe, Army, Thomas, BN, BNSF, Lionel, K-line, MTH) and every scale (O27, semi scale, and scale) I own on the layout all at the same time!

I can appreciate prototypical models (often in N or HO scale) for a few minutes. My semi-scale Lionel T1 duplex is just sooooo cool. The pictures of detailed 3 rail in the magazines are impressive as well. I strive for realism as long as the effort is limited. However, non prototypical 3 rail can look every bit as nice just different. And for me toy 3 rail is just more fun to operate!

Jim H

[EIS2]

trigtrax,

You stated: "I've never seen a real boxcar with floating alien bodies in it, or giraffes and dinosaurs bobbing out of a hole in the roof."

Well I've seen one railroad that has hauled all of these cars. I think the name of the railroad was "LIONEL LINES".

Earl Staley

[trigtrax]

Exactly... and Lionel Lines is a brand of Toy Train

[mickey4479]

I appreciate all the comments on this thread. All valid opinions. But I also observe that threads like this are like fishing. Present an enticing bait, and you are sure to get a hit. I just wish my fishing luck went as well! [:)]

[FJ and G]

The reason is marketing and to save $ on the tooling. If you can run off a bunch of roadnames for the trainmaster (full-size), knowing full well there are Santa Fe fans out there, even tho they didn't have any except for the baby trainmasters, then they're gonna do it.

There are those who enjoy toy trains AND the historical aspect. While of course they all are just toys, one could also value both accuracy of the "toy" aspect, even if the toy is an artistic representation of the real thing.

Perhaps the most historically accurate freaks are the Pennsy fans. I'll cite a few examples. If extra pair of drivers were added to a K-4 labeled as such, there's be an uproar. Same if there are an extra wheel-set added or subtracted to the GG-1.

Also, there's a distinctly accuracy "freaks" segment of the hobby who purchase 3rd Rail and Atlas locos.

While most, say the vast majority, of toy train modelers don't care whether or not something is accurate, I think we should not denegrate the other segment of the hobby that values scale, premium, or whatever you like to call it.

For the scale freaks and for those who value historical accuracy that the toy represents artistically, they will just have to do the research and see if the roadname, paint job, detailing, etc etc, matches the prototype close enough for them.

While I'm not in the camp of the rivet counters, I do try to get a reasonable fascimile of the model; for example, I won't get a full-length trainmaster if the Santa Fe never owned one, but I compromise on other things such as boxcars without underside detailing (thinking perhaps that someday in my spare time I might detail it) [:D][:D][:D]

[trigtrax]

I just wish my fishing luck went as well!

Well Dang, mickey, there's no Ocean near Kansas City [:D]

[Anonymous]

"While most, say the vast majority, of toy train modelers don't care whether or not something is accurate, I think we should not denegrate the other segment of the hobby that values scale, premium, or whatever you like to call it."
----------------------

I agree with you 100% on that point, David! Hobbies are individual pursuits, and how one pursues his hobby is strictly his own business.

I do think that that an increased emphasis on scale realism in the three-rail O gauge market (never have quite understood how that third rail could equate with prototypical accuracy and/or scale) has made it very difficult for manufacturers to understand just where they should best place their resources, and I do imagine that hobbyists' incessant demands for even more, and at less cost, have contributed significantly to a leveling-off of the O gauge market and resulted in some industry consolidation, but that's for others to worry about. I know there are already more than enough trains out there to satisfy my interests and needs for the remainder of my lifetime, and it's kind of nice to be able to just sit back and watch how others react to the ups and downs of the industry and the hobby--not out of any feeling of smugness, but simply because it's really interesting to see how different people treat their own involvement in one of life's leisure time activities.

[tschmidt]

If I like it, I will buy it. I don't care if it is a train from a movie or is painted like a cany bar. It may be from a line where I like the colors. What ever makes this hobby fun for me is what I do.

TomS

[laz 57]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tschmidt

If I like it, I will buy it. I don't care if it is a train from a movie or is painted like a cany bar. It may be from a line where I like the colors. What ever makes this hobby fun for me is what I do.

TomS

Well said TOM,
I have made up a bunch of my own cars with decals of LYNYRD SKYNYRD, OLD MILWAUKEE and DA CHICAGO BEARS, there were no cars made of theses names ,why because they are TOYS and I like em.
laz57

[Anonymous]

........because not enough uninformed people like me know about this place and therefore aren't educated enough to care!

The study addiction doesn't hit until after the newness of the toy passes. I'm already laughing at myself about some of my first purchases. If I didn't read here, I wouldn't know any better! Ignorance is bliss!

[Dr.Fu-Manchu]

The Doctor Is In !!! I see I opened a "Large Kettle Of Fish" with this one. I may have not stated my point, which happens in the wee hours when I am on line. I guess it's me, I was brought up on Lionel and the road names were not the ones I saw in SoCal. Don't get me wrong, I love the cars that are "different" It's just that I want items in the paint scheme and types that I saw. I am leaning toward SP and some makers don't make what I want in diesels, ie; early black widow Geep's , F-units and such. I am willing to do repaints. In fact, I bought a repainted MPC Geep in SP black widow scheme. And as I said before, my F-units and alco's are not in proper paint but it's my pike so it's no biggie. I just want to be able to buy loco's that my home road used in the right paint because I don't feel I can do a good repaint/decal job. I am going to look for a person to do the job for me and solve that problem. Of course, If you look, everything has been done on the full size railroads.
Till My Next Missive, I Remain The Humble Yet Strangly Evil (somewhat befuddled in the wee hours) Doctor !!![|)][}:)]

[Anonymous]

I imagine that just about everyone wants items specific to their interests, but it's simply not possible for the various manufacturers to be all things to all people. There are or were a great many railroads in this country alone, and each of those railroads used equipment specific to their purposes (moving people and certain types of goods from point A to point B at the lowest possible cost). No one manufacturer, or even group of manufacturers, could posslby meet all the expectations of a hobbyist who is interested in one particular road, given that the prototype roads themselves were so diverse in terms of what they operated.

But most of all, the manufacturers have to focus on what sells for them. Some roadnames are more popular than others, and have a larger following in the hobby, so it stands to reason that the majority of products are going to be made to represent those roads.

[Anonymous]

Lots of other roadnames ,
of rail lines that dont even exsist.
Modelers make up thier own roadnames.
name a few,V&O,G&D.ES&D , Lakeside Lines and the most famous
Lionel Lines.
getting back to the question, It Sells.
market driven.

[brianel027]

BTW Dave, as I've said before and I hope you didn't misread me - the more the merrier!

I agree that NO segment of the hobby should be put down, be it a scale prototype scale modeler, a traditional tin modeler or a typical tabletop modeler.

The reason I stopped posting as much on the OGR forum was because of a number of putdowns that had been made on 027 modelers. Granted, these kinds of comments represent the foolishness of only a few people, but as with going to a bar after work - you go where you feel welcome. And whether Miller is better than Budweiser is really a matter of personal taste - as it is with the different aspects of this hobby if the truth were told.

I think there are several reasons the scale end of the hobby gets a bit more attention:

-It's a new thing that hasn't been done so much before. And as with many products, top line items tend to command the most public attention even if the actual sales are different.
-The train companies have been gunning for each other for years. The animosity and the competition have certainly played a role here in outdoing the others or the offering of more detailed products than the next guy.
-The train forums.... unfortunately the kid or adult who has just entered the hobby is not probably going to be voicing opinions on a train forum as much as seasoned modelers. Of course these unseasoned modelers are probably not going to be as demanding either.

While there is obviously a market for scale proportioned and detailed trains, there is also a market for inexpensive, traditionally sized or 027 sized trains. I don't think one makes the other right or wrong, and so it should be that way with the people who purchase the trains.

The modelers who can afford to spend thousands on trains and have "stadium" sized layouts should consider themselves blessed and fortunate and be thankful. The world is full of the less fortunate.

And while it may not be their cup of tea, the guys who have the simple table top layouts are doing their part too.... any newcomer who was to see both kinds of layouts would certainly ooogle at the large scale layout, but then realize the table top layout is probably more within reach.

I even consider myself blessed to have the trains I do.... and my life has been no cake walk either. For the second time in 3 years I'm going to be out of work as the company I'm with is closing up for good. Not fun! Like it or not, all these cheap goods from China are having an effect here in the states, and I'm now feeling it again.

But there are folks in this world who don't have enough food to eat this morning while I can sit here and vocalize about trains.

[trigtrax]

The reason I stopped posting as much on the OGR forum was because of a number of putdowns that had been made on 027 modelers.

Why let other people decide where you post? O-27 trains are a part of this hobby. I've looked at some of those Scale O-Gauge engines and wondered how may people really own their own Bowling Alley to run them in. Postwar Trains that needed it were shipped with replacement blades to run on both O and O-27.. There's as much historical significance to O-27 as O-gauge. Don't let these folks who have some internal issues get to you.

[Anonymous]

The world is not filled with rivet counters. toy trains forever!

[Bucksco]

One thing that I have learned while working in the marketing departments of a couple of model railroad manufacturers is that you can't possibly please all of the people all of the time!
Some model railroaders rant and rave about wanting more detail. When you provide more detail they complain that the model is too fragile!
Some model railroaders blast manufacturers for not producing "The most famous locomotive to ever grace the rails". When you put that locomotive in your upcoming catalog and get 5 orders for it nationwide they can't understand how you could possibly cancel such a popular piece!
Believe it or not a manufacturer must sell a certain amount of pieces from a tool to cover the cost of manufacturing it. If this means putting every popular roadname on it -well.......
In other words - In order to keep cutting new tools for new products you've got to keep selling the existing ones.
Isn't it limiting one's sales potential to produce a loco or piece of rolling stock that was specific to one railroad and expect it to keep selling year after year? I think not.
I could go on and on.

[Poppa_Zit]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dr.Fu-Manchu

Why is it that the toy train companies make a loco or a type of freight car/caboose that a certain railroad never had ?

I guess for the same reason people spend so much time and money in an attempt to make their layout look as realistic as possible, then run their trains on track with a non-prototypical middle rail.

As has been said, they're TOYS.

[bogaziddy]

How about making real trains look more like toy traims?

I remember when I was a locomotive engineer for Union Pacific Railroad and we got put away for hours on end in some siding between terminals for meets or because there was no room for us in the yard at our off duty terminal, ( Well, an idle mind is a mischievous mind ) So, to pass away the time, I would put on my gloves and get a moistened paper towel and go out on the locomotive walkway and draw Lionel logos on the locomotive's long hood. You could do this because the locomotives were always so dirty that you could write on the locomotive by rubbing away the dirt. This was a sort of non-destructive tagging of the locomotive that, if the company found offensive, could simply remove merely by washing the locomotive. Not only would I put Lionel logos on the engines but I would write "Lionel Lines" underneath "Union Pacific". Surprisingly, Lionel Corporation never did, to my knowledge at least, contact the U.P. with regards to the unauthorized use of their trade name ... Hmm!, go figure.

No, it doesn't really bother me if toy train manufacturers takes liberties with prorotypical accuracy. Whimsy plays a pretty important part in the minds of toy train collectors and operators. Many toy train enthusiasts want trains that remind them of the trains they had while growing up and those toy trains were far from accurate scaling.

There certainly is room for both scale and toy trains in this wonderful hobby of ours and luckily, there are manufacturers providing products to advocates both scale and toy trains. The bottom line is that one receives satisfaction from one's hobby regardless of the level of accuracy. I appreciate toy layouts and Hi - Rail set ups. I personally plan to purchase Lionel's Alien Suspension car due to be shipped later this year. I have a 1:48 th scale model of the flying saucer Bob Lazar purportedly did reverse engineering on while employed at Area 51. I'll park the saucer outside my Plasticville Airport hangar. You can't get much more whinsical than that ... but I'll get quite a few chuckles from friends who come over to see my set up. That, to me, is what this hobby is all about ... providing a little break from the Hum-Drum of daily life for myself and friends.

[tschmidt]

bogaziddy,

I would love to have seen that engine of yours. Now a days, I see more graffite on trains then ever before.

By the way, the alien train is one of my favorites. I've collected all the pieces so far so I might as well collect the rest.

TomS