Jim, you pretty much sum up what I have felt and have said. But I also have little hope that it will happen, though I'd like for time to prove me wrong on this one. I think Lionel is too entrenched in their thinking that by putting the copyrighted orange/blue scheme on a box with the words "Lionel" that the sky is the limit as far as pricing. Every Lionel CEO of the past 20 years has spoken of the collectibility factor. No dbout this has a lot to do with the high pricing levels of the PWC series: to not drive down prices on older items by offering the reissues at more reasonable prices.
Even Neil Young's rantings aka Clyde Coil carry forward the thought that somehow Lionel views the high technology products such as Legacy as making Lionel products a family related hobby. I wonder what families he is talking about? The same familes he sings for on Farm Aid? The same kind typical of Greendale? Sorry Charlie, but the "real" families I talk to don't seem to feel that high end digital control train products are in their price range.
Obviously there is a market for the high end. The average age chart on the OGR forums shows the lopsided nature of the ages of hobby participants, which offers no surprises from what any of us already know: the landside majority of modelers in this hobby are in the 50-60 year old age group. Jerry Calabrese has said the new Lionel Legacy Big Boy has already exceeded Lionel's sales expectations by almost double. This probably has something to do with the Legacy System being included with the locomotive. But it's still a $1,700 price tag and I'd gander not many 8-year old boys are getting this item gift wrapped with their name on it.
In his interview, Calabrese speaks of Lionel's established brand recognition and quality and how this equates to full list price. Which flies in the face of the ironic fact that Lionel's largest top dealers (Grand Central, Grzyboski, Train Express, Train Land, Island Trains, Charlie Ro, etc) are ALL dicount mail order venues and NOT full list price sellers. They sell the most product because they offer substantial discount pricing and blowouts, simple as that.
Lionel's distribution and wholesale regulations need to be addressed as much as any new products that could be offered. Lionel also needs to put a small effort into tooling for the low end with at least one new modern non-scale starter diesel (along the lines of what the Alco FA was years ago) to capture the feel of today's modern locomotives.
I would go one step further and suggest Lionel go back to two separate edition catalogs: one geared entirely to the newcomer and beginning modelers with more introductory priced items and a normal second catalog as what they currently do. The lopsided nature of Lionel's offerings towards the expensive higher end does little to encourage (and actually deters) newcomers and young families with the obvious impression that this is an expensive rich man's hobby.
In my thinking, there's even more irony that although Lionel has always been THE NAME, a generation ago many kids got their start in the hobby with the more affordable, more readily available MARX trains. And once those kids got that MARX set, more than likely they added Lionel items to that set.
Now today Lionel has rights to the K-Line tooling via the marketing agreement with Sanda Kan. And much of the tooling that got K-Line started and established is that same MARX tooling. As much as their is a place for scale detailed expensive trains in today's market, there is also a place for more affordable, traditionally sized trains. The success of RMT and products like the BEEP and the BUDDY confirm what I have been saying for years: there IS a desire and a need for affordale non-scale trains and if someone will make them, make them right and in a variety of roads, they WILL sell and sell in droves.
I've been reading these comments on the OGR forum for years, that the reason K-Line stopped making the 027 MARX origin Budd car and the MARX origin Alco S-2 is because they didn't sell, and that they aren't scale proportioned. Well, then why is the BUDDY selling now?
I dare say if Walter Matuch could offer the K-Line S-2, that he would have a big hit with that too!! Especially if he offered it in the same variety of roads and not the same few that Lionel always offers.
MDK K-Line more or less forgot about their original buyers that allowed them to become established in the beginning and eventually went under. Let's hope Lionel will not make the same mistake. With easy access to these lesser expensive, basic train items, Lionel has an opportunity without the additonal expensive of related new toolings costs. Not to mention a couple of the newer items like the redesigned improved 027 switch and the SuperStreets line.
It's unlikely that under the current closed minded thinking of Lionel, that they would offer the former K-Line products at the attractive pricing that allowed K-Line to gain a foothold in the marketplace (see the list prices already in place for the initial K-Lionel offerings) - though maybe they should. If nothing more, they could at least offer the products.
In the words of Jerry Calabrese, how many more expensive locomotives can this current market absorb without dramatic blowout pricing? He seems to understand the problems and the need for growth (via his "funnel" philosophy), so we will see if Lionel is as determined to address the problem with more affordable, basic products - OR if they will continue to placate the middle aged Neil Young's of this hobby with more high end products that the down-to-earth family farmer of Greendale will never be able to purchase.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Bob Nelson
I would like to see Lionel produce the K-Line suburban tank engine. I think this was their last engine produced. It's nicley sized for 031. I'm just afraid of how much it will cost!! Most likely I would not be able to justify that kind of money for the quality of the "new stuff"
Mike S.
In 1995 Lionel ran their plastic ACF Center Flow 2-Bay Covered Hopper in a Denver & Rio Grande Western scheme that was close, but not quite right.
The K-Line Aluminum Body ACF Center Flow 2-Bay Covered Hopper should be run in the 1977-1978 paint schemes for Denver & Rio Grande Western, Southern Pacific, and Missouri Pacific. Now that there is a licencing agreement with UP, the colors and graphics will be accurate. These cars used to be set out on a siding at the Harborlite Silica Processing plant between Vicksburg and Schoolcraft on the GTW mainline. They were used to haul silica from western states.
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Well Jwse30, this whole thread is somewhat speculation and the entire picture could dramatically change in several months when the final ruling comes down on the Lionel/MTH lawsuit. Will Wellspring swallow a $40M judgement against a company that is already operating in bankruptcy? Time will tell.
Provided Lionel survives that hurdle and can gain ownership of the K-Line tooling (and not just exclusive rights to market the items), things could change quite a bit. I could envision Lionel producing many more K-Line based products under that scenario. But that's my speculation.
Remember though that K-Line started off as a retail business selling Lionel products of all things. Later when K-Line began manufacturing, what was the first line of products offered by the new company? Yep, 027 track!!
This would not be the first time when circumstances looked like Lionel might drop 027 track. First there T-rail, then there was Super '0" and then there was the MPC TruTrack. Now we have Lionel's FasTrack with some real success to the line. But I think there will continue to be a market for 027 track. Should Lionel be foolish enough to drop their line, I'm certain someone else will seize the opportunity and start producing it. Under that picture, I think Williams could be more inclined to expand their current selection.
Remember, there is a price element involved in this hobby. A decade ago, who could have guessed that the former Williams Mighty Mite switcher would have new life. Yet RMT has had quite a bit of success with this little affordably priced, decent value loco. K-Line also got their foot in the marketplace by offering more competitely priced items over Lionel's.
So I wouldn't write off 027 track just quite yet.
Lionel would undoubtebly contribute the sustaining lifes blood to the toy train industry by continuing productionn of all essential 0-027 products at entry level pricing.
Let the hobbiest decide to what degree she or he wants to take the adventure too,sometimes if it ain't truly broke don't fix it........
I admire the entire spectrum of toy trains and memories sustain themselves practically on a daily basis.
You just can't top the little kids visiting full of questions and visions of excitement watching all the various animated scenic additions.
After seeing the joy in their faces don't forget the most important ingrediant,cookies cause they are crucial to the bonding nature of boys and girls of all ages.....Today's youngsters have incredible access and knowledge regarding many facets of the electronic age,best part they can teach us a bunch.
The excitement of basic operation and scenery building presents opportunities not found in most video software,most important freedom of individual expression a term we grew upon but some kids have never experienced
Long after the neighborhood children leave the smiles and tears of happiness make their journey down my craggy face with hope they will wander up a bit sooner next time.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
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