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Trolley pole and wire

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Trolley pole and wire
Posted by cnw1995 on Friday, January 6, 2006 8:44 AM
As some of you know, I am converting my layout into something of a 'traction' railroad. I've got hundreds of 6 inch long dowels I'm preparing to spear into the ground - but I don't know enough about this 3-rail-roller equipped Western Hobbycraft trolley to see if it would also really work off its trolley poles. That said, I'm experimenting with attaching wire or thread to these poles and would like advice as to how to do it. I am planting the poles in pairs across the track from one another - to best support the 'wire'. Maybe just a drop of glue, or cut some sort of slit in the wood or ....?

Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.

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Posted by phillyreading on Friday, January 6, 2006 10:08 AM
I remember seeing an article in Classic Toy Trains about making your own catenary system with H.O. track rails and soldering the rails together. Also MTH makes an over head wire system to use with three rail track.
Lee F. in south FL
Interested in southest Pennsylvania railroads; Reading & Northern, Reading Company, Reading Lines, Philadelphia & Reading.
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Posted by wrmcclellan on Friday, January 6, 2006 10:10 AM
Doug,

I have no experience with this (except a very brief foray in HO many many years ago), but you have probably seen the numerous articles in CTT and OGR on catenary. Like trolley wire, it needs to be held down a bit from the cross members so the wheel or shoe on the trolley pole can track the wire.

Thread may not work well unless you can really tension it (weights) to keep it taught against the upward pressure.

Here are a couple of links that might prove interesting although they are slanted towards prototypical installation which is far more complicated than what you are contemplating.

http://www.trolleyville.com/tv/school/catenary_construction/index.shtml

http://users.adelphia.net/~bweisman/

The last photo on this page shows what a trolley wire hanger looks like.

http://www.rockhilltrolley.org/ext_wire.htm


Regards, Roy

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 6, 2006 10:17 AM
You could be in for some interesting experiences by most accounts - http://www.blackpool-in-the-box.freeserve.co.uk/ has information and advice on OO trams (smaller scale, but the techniques should scale up) which might be of use. Hope this helps!
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 6, 2006 11:34 AM
Hi doug I'm watching this post. This should be interesting to see what kind of advice you are going to get. I may throw my two cents in later. Good luck Felix
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Posted by spankybird on Friday, January 6, 2006 1:38 PM
Felixg - you and Doug should work well together on this.

Doug - many of the MTH trolleys and electric engines can be run from the overhead wires.

I am a person with a very active inner child. This is why my wife loves me so. Willoughby, Ohio - the home of the CP & E RR. OTTS Founder www.spankybird.shutterfly.com 

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Posted by cnw1995 on Friday, January 6, 2006 1:42 PM
Felix is a real pro - you should see what he did in HO.
I think I'll start with a small straight patch and see what happens.

Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 6, 2006 2:03 PM
I'm gonna watch this with interest- I'm really curious about the possibility of running my "PW" Lionel EP-5 "under wire" - Of the hundreds that were sold, is there anybody out there that actually put up a small catenary system???
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 6, 2006 2:39 PM
HI doug, tom, If you guy's have any of the pictures that I sent to you, see if you can post them on this site. I' m not set up to do it right now. I'm sure the guy's out there will get a kick out them when they see what I've made. When people see actual cantenary working they are so fascinated that they must touch the overhead wire to see if there is any electricity in it. They don't believe it actualy works. I have to pull down the pantagraph to show them. WE did not have dcs or tmcc back then but this type of operation worked great with out all this new technology that we have today. I will make some comments about this post when I see more responces . Felix
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Posted by spankybird on Friday, January 6, 2006 6:24 PM
This is Felix’s old HO layout. He is now building a new ‘O’ gauge layout.









click on the pics to enlarge them

tom

I am a person with a very active inner child. This is why my wife loves me so. Willoughby, Ohio - the home of the CP & E RR. OTTS Founder www.spankybird.shutterfly.com 

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Posted by csxt30 on Friday, January 6, 2006 6:47 PM
Felix: are you building the new o-gauge layout in addition to the HO one ?
That's a great HO layout ! Thanks, John
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Posted by cnw1995 on Friday, January 6, 2006 10:09 PM
John, I believe his HO layout is now gone - and he is building something in O.

Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 6, 2006 10:17 PM
Hi john No I had to tear down my Ho layout so that i would have room for my new O gauge layout which is un constuction now. I may put up cantenary on my upper level loop but I have to figure how I can run cantenary threw my mth bridge that I have up. That's providing that I can get an engine and a cantenary system for O gauge. I think it's going to be hard to try to scratch build it. I wish Doug all the luck in the world. Thanks Tom for showing my pictures to every one. I will be looking at this post often if some questions come up so that maybe I can be helpful to answer any questions Felix
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Posted by csxt30 on Friday, January 6, 2006 10:40 PM
Thanks Doug & Felix ! Sure was a nice one ! Keep us posted on the progress on the new one!
Thanks, John
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 7, 2006 7:19 AM
what spacing should be used between the each pole?
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Posted by cnw1995 on Saturday, January 7, 2006 9:44 AM
Richard, I'm going to experiment with that - it'll be a combination of the total track and the number of poles and how great the wire or thread or string 'sags' between poles. I'm also a follower of the modeling philosophy of 'good enough' - I don't believe I'm going to make a big effort at wiring the track at the back of the layout - 10 ft. away...

Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 7, 2006 10:12 AM
Love to hear how it works out!!, then maybe you can let me know the info, love to try it myself
Lots of luck[tup]
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 7, 2006 10:45 AM
Hi doug Ready for this. A few questions. 1. Can you give us an idea of how big you are planning this cantenary addition to your layout will be? 2. Are you going to electrify the overhead or make it just for looks? 3. Not sure but is going to be for a trolley or for or rapid transit system. The reason i'm asking is if your pantograph is going to be a shoe or a flat bar for your overhead messenger wire. I will respond to you later when I hear from you. Have a good week end. Felix
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 7, 2006 11:19 AM
There's a bit of a difference between tram/trolley O/H and heavy rail. Trolley wiring typically has a single wire attached under the support pole crossbars while the heavy rail type has a support wire attached to the pole crossbars with the "running" wire hung underneath by droppers. The HO layout above (which has some very nice models on it by the way - is the E10/Br.110 a Fleischmann one?) has the heavy rail type while the layouts on the link I posted have the tram/trolley type. Regarding the poles/pantographs question, there's a couple of photos here showing how one prototype system gets around this http://www.blackpool-in-the-box.freeserve.co.uk/questions.html I'd guess O is still large enough for these to work. Hope this is of use!
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 9:42 AM
Felix - your pics were great - was the system scratch-built or did you use/modify an available system. Since you did it iin HO originally, now that you are working in "O", have a found a supply, or will you be forced to scratchbuild this time. And will you be running any Lionel Post War, or Lionel currently produced items? thanks for keeping us up to date
-***
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Posted by cnw1995 on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 10:26 AM
Matt is right. This is definitely more of a rural, trolley feel. Wooden poles and thread - right now, my trolleys are running 3-rail. I'm not sure how they would run off real overhead. I don't have any documentation for them. So to answer Felix's questions again: 1. Can you give us an idea of how big you are planning this cantenary addition to your layout will be? The whole layout, essentially two big loops and three long yard tracks, somelike lik 264 sq. ft., will be under wire. - including a 10 ft. long tunnel.
2. Are you going to electrify the overhead or make it just for looks? Just for looks. I've got 240 6 inch poles all painted. Then I'll plant them following some of Felix's suggestions: two abreast, with a span wire holding the trolley wire. I'm going to be experimenting with thread and twine.

3. Not sure but is going to be for a trolley or for or rapid transit system. The reason i'm asking is if your pantograph is going to be a shoe or a flat bar for your overhead messenger wire. It is for trolleys, they seem to have trollers at the end of their poles...

By the way, the Blackpool in the Box is a great website. Not O gauge or its English equivalent far as I can make out.

Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.

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Posted by FJ and G on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 10:39 AM
The latest Garden RR mag has an outstanding traction indoor layout that was entirely handmade and is functional, powering a bunch of Swiss electric locomotives. It is worth reviewing.

I thought about putting poles up outside for my track but am worried that if BB the beagle chases a rabbit at night, she may get impaled on one!
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 10:44 AM
My old Lionel GG1 allowed me to rewire it to run from the pantograph. The pantograph had tiny rubber insulators at the corners to isolate it from the metal shell. It snapped into an insulated fitting on top. Since there are 2 pantographs and either can be up, the first suggestion is to run a wire from one fitting to the other. The EP5 and 520 don't have that problem. Then remove the wiring from the collector shoes and rerun it to one of the pantograph fittings. The other end of the collector wire is already attached to the E-unit.
At $50 to $100 /ft to use commercial overhead wiring, I never pursued this m.o. Plus, it makes 2 trains independent, but when you go to 3 it's back to blocking for old-timers.
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Posted by cnw1995 on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 10:50 AM
I saw that article, David. Impressive indeed. In some respects, it would be easier working in such a large scale. There's also a great article in the latest RMC on my old pal CSS&SB 1100 by William Middleton no less and with detailed drawings.

Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.

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Posted by FJ and G on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 11:23 AM
Good luck, Doug and looking forward to photos as you proceed with the project. Nothing as sad as seeing a trolley or GG-1 running around a layout minus catenary. Like seeing cake minus the frosting. [:(]
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 3:24 PM
Hi doug,texxn22 If you are going to put up cantenary just for look's use any thing that will hold up that streaches at least twice the size or longer than the trolley car. You got a lot of poles to put up for the distance that you hve to build. You could use ho rail or some thing like a hanger that you would use to hang you shirts on. I never did any scratch building and I used cantenary built by vollmer. Ho is much lighter than 0 gauge and I don't know how it would look. Using string , I don't know how long it will last and you might have a problem with how much it will sag. Just make sure your pole does not come into contact with with over head messenger wire because I don't know how you are going to connect your pole to it. I'll get back to you by email if we get into more involved details. Will send you some pictures of my mth hiawatha and I am looking for some 027 passenger cars milwaukee Road to go with the engine.
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Posted by FJ and G on Friday, January 27, 2006 6:50 AM
Doug,

Here's a pretty cool fabbed trolley overhead; check out the rest of his layout like his bridgework and roadbed and trestle; pretty heavy duty stuff...

http://home.comcast.net/~OhioRiverElectricRailway/overhead.htm
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Posted by cnw1995 on Friday, January 27, 2006 8:33 AM
This is a pretty neat idea, David - instead of using a spanning wire that would sag.
Using HO rail as Felix mentioned would be clever as well. I'd have to improve my soldering skills...

Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 27, 2006 9:47 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw1995



By the way, the Blackpool in the Box is a great website. Not O gauge or its English equivalent far as I can make out.




It's OO scale - 4mm=1ft on 16.5mm gauge track (same track gauge as HO but slightly larger scale, this dates back to when motors wouldn't fit in HO scale models of British locos but has hung on to this day). Most people don't bother about the underscale track as it means that you can mix HO and OO stock and also that you can use ready-made track - building to EM or P4 standards can be a very frustrating experience as you have to handlay everything.
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Posted by FJ and G on Friday, January 27, 2006 10:46 AM
Matt,

Very interesting info. Several thousand Brits also run 1:16 and 1:19 scale stuff on O gauge track (32mm). Some very very interesting ways of doing things over there.

Doug,

Just a thought that might be a bit sacrilage; if/when you get a live overhead, U can remove the 3rd rail if the pickups on the trolleys or electrics are functional (or make them so).

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