Trolley pole and wire

[Anonymous]

I do know they use the zig-zag trick over here - the idea is that wear will be equalised over the pantograph head. This is done even on high speed lines (although as may be expected the zig-zag isn't as marked). I've seen some footage from an overhead test car with a camera pointing at the pantograph which clearly shows the wire "moving" from side to side.

[trolleyboy]

Doug, The poles are looking good,you seem to have the knack, they spacing looks pretty realistic as well [tup] Should look good once you are finished.

Rob

[cnw1995]

Thanks, Rob. Pretty good results so far, Felix. Look under Sunday Photo Fun thread to see the zillions of poles planted.

[trolleyboy]

Hi guys figured that I would pop back in again.Most pantograph system in Ontario I'm thinking specifically of the L&PS didn't zig zag their messanger wires. They only topped speeds of 70mph though all with heavy Jewett cars.They did do regular maintenamce on the overhead to keep it tight.loose power wire and pans = bent and broken ears on the pans themselves and usually a pulled done section of wire as well. The ears ( outer ends of the pans ) would be replaceregularly likley a couple or three times a year so ware is an issue,I;m not sure that the zig zagging would help or hinder in that situation.

Doug if you order overhead supplies from Bowser you may have a wait as they tend to manufacture their trolley stuff cars and pole's as the need re orders come in. I've had good luck prdering product right from them though, they are good to deal with.

Rob

[Anonymous]

At speeds of at over 125mph I don't think zig zaging messenger wires are used. I have been on european trains and I have never noticed the lines like that. This is a question I would like to post in the classic train section of ctt. The important factor is the tension of the springs that are making contact with the messenger wire. I don't think doug is going to run his trolley cars that fast. Hey doug how is the project coming along. Felix

[RRCharlie]

Just a thought. Years ago I rode behind a GG-1 on the way to Hartford, Connecticut just after Amtrak took over. I was in the front doorway of the lead passenger car and took some pictures of the top of the "motor". I noticed that the catenary wire did not stay directly above the middle of the locomotive but went back and forth. I read somewhere much later that if you do hang catenary wire, you must do a "zig zag" bag and forth, even along staight sections of track to keep the wire from wearing a groove in the pantograph.

Mel Hazen
Jacksonville, FL

[cnw1995]

Thanks for the links, Rob. There's a ship modelling store in a suburb I pass on my rail commute. I'll have to check them out. I didnt know Bowser made catenary too.

[trolleyboy]

Hi i'll drop in if you guys don't mind. i am an *** so i don't normally venture over here but Felix mnetione dit to me so her I am. Doug if you aren't going to power it another possible out for you is a ship modellers thread.( for rigging ) It's usually a very elastic product so it should hold out to the stretches and bends from poles or pans rubbing against it. I'm not powerin g the over head on my HO layout either, but like David said traction equipment without the wires does look kind of naked. Bowser may be of help to you as well, they make O and HO trolley's and an overhead system ( wires and poles )if you are interested.Another resorce for you as well.

http://www.eastpenn.org/links.html

Good luck on your endevours anyway,I may check in from time to time.

Rob

[cnw1995]

Thanks, Felix. Tell us how it went

[Anonymous]

Hi Doug This sunday I will be going to a train meet in Babylon LI and I think they may be a club there that usually puts up a table that shows their handy work with trolley cars. I will get the name of the club and I will see if they have a web site. They may be more helpful in obtaining information that you need. I will let you know when I get back. Felix

[cnw1995]

Lalalalalala (hands over the ears) Not listening, David!
But seriously, I've not quite figured out how to do this or whether the poles on Walt's trolleys (Western Hobbycraft) are functional or not. I'll have to ask him ;)

[FJ and G]

Matt,

Very interesting info. Several thousand Brits also run 1:16 and 1:19 scale stuff on O gauge track (32mm). Some very very interesting ways of doing things over there.

Doug,

Just a thought that might be a bit sacrilage; if/when you get a live overhead, U can remove the 3rd rail if the pickups on the trolleys or electrics are functional (or make them so).

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cnw1995



By the way, the Blackpool in the Box is a great website. Not O gauge or its English equivalent far as I can make out.

It's OO scale - 4mm=1ft on 16.5mm gauge track (same track gauge as HO but slightly larger scale, this dates back to when motors wouldn't fit in HO scale models of British locos but has hung on to this day). Most people don't bother about the underscale track as it means that you can mix HO and OO stock and also that you can use ready-made track - building to EM or P4 standards can be a very frustrating experience as you have to handlay everything.

[cnw1995]

This is a pretty neat idea, David - instead of using a spanning wire that would sag.
Using HO rail as Felix mentioned would be clever as well. I'd have to improve my soldering skills...

[FJ and G]

Doug,

Here's a pretty cool fabbed trolley overhead; check out the rest of his layout like his bridgework and roadbed and trestle; pretty heavy duty stuff...

http://home.comcast.net/~OhioRiverElectricRailway/overhead.htm

[Anonymous]

Hi doug,texxn22 If you are going to put up cantenary just for look's use any thing that will hold up that streaches at least twice the size or longer than the trolley car. You got a lot of poles to put up for the distance that you hve to build. You could use ho rail or some thing like a hanger that you would use to hang you shirts on. I never did any scratch building and I used cantenary built by vollmer. Ho is much lighter than 0 gauge and I don't know how it would look. Using string , I don't know how long it will last and you might have a problem with how much it will sag. Just make sure your pole does not come into contact with with over head messenger wire because I don't know how you are going to connect your pole to it. I'll get back to you by email if we get into more involved details. Will send you some pictures of my mth hiawatha and I am looking for some 027 passenger cars milwaukee Road to go with the engine.

[FJ and G]

Good luck, Doug and looking forward to photos as you proceed with the project. Nothing as sad as seeing a trolley or GG-1 running around a layout minus catenary. Like seeing cake minus the frosting. [:(]

[cnw1995]

I saw that article, David. Impressive indeed. In some respects, it would be easier working in such a large scale. There's also a great article in the latest RMC on my old pal CSS&SB 1100 by William Middleton no less and with detailed drawings.

[Anonymous]

My old Lionel GG1 allowed me to rewire it to run from the pantograph. The pantograph had tiny rubber insulators at the corners to isolate it from the metal shell. It snapped into an insulated fitting on top. Since there are 2 pantographs and either can be up, the first suggestion is to run a wire from one fitting to the other. The EP5 and 520 don't have that problem. Then remove the wiring from the collector shoes and rerun it to one of the pantograph fittings. The other end of the collector wire is already attached to the E-unit.
At $50 to $100 /ft to use commercial overhead wiring, I never pursued this m.o. Plus, it makes 2 trains independent, but when you go to 3 it's back to blocking for old-timers.

[FJ and G]

The latest Garden RR mag has an outstanding traction indoor layout that was entirely handmade and is functional, powering a bunch of Swiss electric locomotives. It is worth reviewing.

I thought about putting poles up outside for my track but am worried that if BB the beagle chases a rabbit at night, she may get impaled on one!

[cnw1995]

Matt is right. This is definitely more of a rural, trolley feel. Wooden poles and thread - right now, my trolleys are running 3-rail. I'm not sure how they would run off real overhead. I don't have any documentation for them. So to answer Felix's questions again: 1. Can you give us an idea of how big you are planning this cantenary addition to your layout will be? The whole layout, essentially two big loops and three long yard tracks, somelike lik 264 sq. ft., will be under wire. - including a 10 ft. long tunnel.
2. Are you going to electrify the overhead or make it just for looks? Just for looks. I've got 240 6 inch poles all painted. Then I'll plant them following some of Felix's suggestions: two abreast, with a span wire holding the trolley wire. I'm going to be experimenting with thread and twine.

3. Not sure but is going to be for a trolley or for or rapid transit system. The reason i'm asking is if your pantograph is going to be a shoe or a flat bar for your overhead messenger wire. It is for trolleys, they seem to have trollers at the end of their poles...

By the way, the Blackpool in the Box is a great website. Not O gauge or its English equivalent far as I can make out.

[Anonymous]

Felix - your pics were great - was the system scratch-built or did you use/modify an available system. Since you did it iin HO originally, now that you are working in "O", have a found a supply, or will you be forced to scratchbuild this time. And will you be running any Lionel Post War, or Lionel currently produced items? thanks for keeping us up to date
-***

[Anonymous]

There's a bit of a difference between tram/trolley O/H and heavy rail. Trolley wiring typically has a single wire attached under the support pole crossbars while the heavy rail type has a support wire attached to the pole crossbars with the "running" wire hung underneath by droppers. The HO layout above (which has some very nice models on it by the way - is the E10/Br.110 a Fleischmann one?) has the heavy rail type while the layouts on the link I posted have the tram/trolley type. Regarding the poles/pantographs question, there's a couple of photos here showing how one prototype system gets around this http://www.blackpool-in-the-box.freeserve.co.uk/questions.html I'd guess O is still large enough for these to work. Hope this is of use!

[Anonymous]

Hi doug Ready for this. A few questions. 1. Can you give us an idea of how big you are planning this cantenary addition to your layout will be? 2. Are you going to electrify the overhead or make it just for looks? 3. Not sure but is going to be for a trolley or for or rapid transit system. The reason i'm asking is if your pantograph is going to be a shoe or a flat bar for your overhead messenger wire. I will respond to you later when I hear from you. Have a good week end. Felix

[Anonymous]

Love to hear how it works out!!, then maybe you can let me know the info, love to try it myself
Lots of luck[tup]

[cnw1995]

Richard, I'm going to experiment with that - it'll be a combination of the total track and the number of poles and how great the wire or thread or string 'sags' between poles. I'm also a follower of the modeling philosophy of 'good enough' - I don't believe I'm going to make a big effort at wiring the track at the back of the layout - 10 ft. away...

[Anonymous]

what spacing should be used between the each pole?

[csxt30]

Thanks Doug & Felix ! Sure was a nice one ! Keep us posted on the progress on the new one!
Thanks, John

[Anonymous]

Hi john No I had to tear down my Ho layout so that i would have room for my new O gauge layout which is un constuction now. I may put up cantenary on my upper level loop but I have to figure how I can run cantenary threw my mth bridge that I have up. That's providing that I can get an engine and a cantenary system for O gauge. I think it's going to be hard to try to scratch build it. I wish Doug all the luck in the world. Thanks Tom for showing my pictures to every one. I will be looking at this post often if some questions come up so that maybe I can be helpful to answer any questions Felix