Lionel Smoking Caboose review

[csxt30]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Buckeye Riveter

Tom, from now on I don't believe you should waste your time calling the Lionel Fire Department. They have not been very effective on containing the fire on the Baltimore, Ohio and Wabash at Roger's Corners. [:D]

Tom, I agree with Buckeye, but I'm confident they just may be able to save the basement ![:D][:D]

[Buckeye Riveter]

Tom, from now on I don't believe you should waste your time calling the Lionel Fire Department. They have not been very effective on containing the fire on the Baltimore, Ohio and Wabash at Roger's Corners. [:D]

[dwiemer]

Tom,
Thanks. I actually have noted a number of your posts to understand you are a serious member of the hobby at least when it comes to such issues. I guess I have been on the edge of watching our two crumbsnatchers trying to put some grey hair on my head. I know that you will be doing the right thing, I just hope that Lionel will too. I usually have fun with the humor on this site, it just looked like some folks were getting a bit out in left field. Anyway, look forward to seeing how this is resolved. If y'all ever find your way to southwest GA, I buy the dinner, including grits[:D]

[spankybird]

Dennis, Buckeye knows me all to well. My email to Lionel was just the facts. As you have pointed out, this could have been much worse if a yougnest was using this under his tree layout and not noticed what was happening.

I should have made a share file from shutterfly and attached the URL in the email to Lionel. I didn't think of that until after I sent it. If they respond I will forward some pic of it to them.

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dwiemer

I would not follow the advice of those who would exagerate the results of your experience, it has enough potential for disaster.

Dennis, obviously humor is not your forte. [:D] If you knew Tom, you would know that he would present the facts and just the facts and not listen one bit to me or my obvious apparent exageration outlined in the purely tongue in cheek letter. In fact, next week when I most likely will go to supper with Tom (Tom, I'll buy.) , I'll ask him if he used any of my exagerations in his correspondance to Lionel to make sure he is still on the straight and narrow as he has been for as long as I have known him.

[dwiemer]

Tom,
I believe that Lionel, to be a responsible company should post warnings about this possiblity. I know that in the past with firearms companies, if there is a possiblity of a problem, even though the product has not been made for 15 years, they advertise a recall or at least a warning against using that product. I know we are talking apples and oranges, but there is a possiblity of tragic events. I know that the consumer product safety counce would have something to say about this. Regardless of the outcome on Tom's issue of replacement / refund, they should alert the public and take the high road.
Dennis

[ChiefEagles]

Mine are Pullmor motors [one to each engine]. Yes, and if your ZW was off, the voltages at the top end would be off [lower too]. HUMMM I'm like you, I just leave my ZW plugged into the Fixed port on TIU and use the transformer handle to control voltage.

[spankybird]

Chief – both diesels have dual motors which I believe is why they need high voltage to run. Believe me they are not flying at 10 volts, they aren’t even moving.

And my point is still the same. The voltage that these need to run are higher than the caboose burned up at.

BTW – I am running these thru Channel one and controlling the transformer, not thru DCS.

[ChiefEagles]

Tom, I do not want to argue with you [you are my friend and I believe you] but, all my conventional stuff starts at 6 to 8 volts. Without an extra load, my engines fly at 12 to 14 volts. I pull 15 hopper cars full of real coal and my conventionals run good at 12 to 16 volts [makes them smoke better]. My Polar Express can't pull them without a starting assistance. I'm powering with a postwar ZW. [?]

Another thought: I run my conventionals with the ZW handles running through fixed voltage on TIU. If I use the DCS remote on variable through the TIU [which I personally do not like], there is some voltage difference.

[spankybird]

Neil - I have double check the voltage marking on the handles of my ZW with my VOM and the are very close. How much could it be off, not much.

The point here isn’t that my engine requires 12 or 14 volts to run but that I am at a higher voltage to run these engines than the caboose burn up at.

First running this in command didn't cause it to burn up. If I would have used any one of these three engines it would have burned up.

The Dealer is from Eire Pa, so I will see him at the next show. I know he had more than one of these. I am hoping he will do the right thing a replace it.

[nblum]

I'd be curious how you are measuring voltage. It's very unusual to have locomotives that are just moving at 14 volts. Are you sure your VOM is accurate? Not critical, as obviously whatever voltage it is, it was too much for this caboose.

No doubt that Lionel will (should) replace your caboose if they can. It is still under warranty and you just bought it. Doesn't matter how long it's been on the shelf at the dealer. It's the purchase date that counts. That having been said, they may or may not have replacement parts available at this point in time, and a refund of your purchase price may be all you can hope for. Have you considered asking your dealer for a refund?

[spankybird]

Dennis and all,

I did email Lionel about this. We can only wait and see what they say. I concern is that with it being 14 years old, even thou I bought it new in the box from a dealer, they may not have replacement parts or honor their warranty.

As far a puting more of my money into this, at $39.00 cost its hard to justife. I could just by another one and turn off the smoke.

[spankybird]

Chief – Even my 8142 sound of steam engine from 1971 with pulling only 3 cars needs 16 volts. 14 volts just to get it started. Again you guys are saying that this caboose should not have been operating at 16 volts. And here is an engine made 20 years before the caboose and it would have burned up behind it also.

[dwiemer]

Tom,
A few issues here. First, is safety. If a young railroader was running this and, say for worst case, it was a Christmas layout with all that white felt/buffalo snow etc, and the thing caught fire, well, who knows, could be a disaster. Secondly, I see no problem with your operating. If it had happened after a 5 hour session on the tracks, I would have a lot more of an inquirey. Given that it was within minutes, it is certainly a product malfunction. Not telling you what to do, but what I would do. I would contact Lionel with a email followed up with a certified letter telling them the problem and asking for a replacement. Also, stated in the letter and really do this, send a copy to the governments safety counsel. Lionel I am sure knows of this problem and they should make every attempt to alert the public, ie: warnings in railroad magazines and product warnings sent to train shops. This is more than just getting your caboose fixed. I would not follow the advice of those who would exagerate the results of your experience, it has enough potential for disaster.
Regards,
Dennis

[ChiefEagles]

Tom, now you know most train sets [only have a few cars and a narrow radius curve, probably 027 back then] can not be run over 14 to 16 volts or they will fly off the track. Sure you can load it down with cars and it will not as the "load" slows the engine down. We are talking about 10 years ago. Probably did not have a can motor with fly wheel [which pulls more] back then for that Lionel set.

[spankybird]

OK Guys, We can put the voltage thing to rest. I did a test to see if Neil was correct that at 14 volts my trains would be flying off the track.

So I took my old 6250 switcher from the mid 1950 and put it on the same train and track.



At 14 volts it didn’t even move. At 16 volts it was moving and at 17 to 18 volts is was running at about 15smph. Certainly not flying off the track. In fact this is higher voltage than I was using when I first run this caboose.



Next I took one of my Lionel engines from the mid 80’s and put it on the same train. It again did not move at 12 volts. At about 15 to 16 volts it was running about 20 smph. This is about the same voltage I was at before.



Summary: If I would have used either of these engines, the caboose would have still burned up!!!


I have to agree with Buckeye. Lionel has made an operating caboose that does not operate with the normal operating voltages of there transformers. As I stated before, the ZW has been out for over 50 years.

tom

[Buckeye Riveter]

In this day and age of product litigation (since the mid 1970s), it is imperative that a product is tested thoroughly for all possible scenarios of use. After testing, big warning stickers on the product and big bold letters with the warning in an instruction book are often required..

For example, you wouldn't think of using your Toro Lawnmower as a hedge trimmer by picking the thing up and trying to spruce up your hedge, but somebody did back in the 70's. They sued and of course won because the instruction book failed to warn them not to use the mower as a hedge trimmer. DAH![xx(]

Lionel, or for that matter any maker of electrical powered model trains, should test their product to know the limits of safety. Here in Central Ohio, we have an independent lab that does just that. I have visited the lab and seen them test some very weird items including candles. The candles were being tested for a retailer who was concerned about the amount of soot produced by the various products from different manufacturers. .

A scenario for testing a model trains car or engine is to put it on the track and turn on the power and record your observations as what happens. You would test multiple units to see if you obtained similar results. You would vary voltages. You would go past the max voltage to see what would happen. Testing such as this is not rocket science. In fact it is about one notch above a middle schooler's science project. (Someday I'll tell you about judging the state science fair. What a hoot!)

As to the future, all the model train companies that now use 18v instead of the old 14v of power knew that some of their items would fail if they did any simple testing. They choose to develop future systems with 18v. The choice of that system also bestowed on them the responsibilities and risks along with the rewards. .

And this is the reason why manufacturers of anything and everything are trying to convince state legislatures to rewrite tort reform laws. It is indeed a very slippery slope and we sure don't need more litigation, but the demand for absolute risk free products seem to be increasing every year. [:)][:(][%-)]

[Kooljock1]

In the TMCC manual(it came with your TMCC Command Set) it gives a fairly long list of layout changes that may be required when operating in the Command Environment.

I buddy of mine has the READING version of this same caboose, and he uses it only at train shows because it pumps soooo much smoke! Of course the hole in the roof just keeps getting bigger and bigger....

Meanwhile I pulled my NYC version of the same caboose from service to protect it until I can install a resistor.

Jon [8D]

[nblum]

"Didn't they make the future? "

Do you know where you'll be in five years? Sure? :).

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nblum

How could they know what the future held?

Didn't they make the future?

[MartyE]

QUOTE: Marty, do you realize this caboose was made several years prior to the command environment existing?

No I didn't...if that's the case I would tend to agree with you. Sorry for the soapboxien out burst. I thought it was current or at least semi current. Of course I should be mad at myself because I hate when somone comments without reading the entire post and I just did.[xx(] Sorry for the post . I would have to agree with Neil.

[nblum]

Marty, do you realize this caboose was made several years (as in 5; 1991) prior to the command environment existing? How could they know what the future held? There are millions of products out there that are incompatible with the 18V command environment made by Lionel from 1902-1996 (and K-Line , Williams, Weaver, and MTH from xxx to 2000). Including every O27 switch made by Lionel one might add, for the unwary. It's one of the things one needs to understand when buying lighted equipment not designed to operated above 8-10V or so for extended periods of time. Indeed, the instructions make that clear, although not clear enough in this instance.

[MartyE]

QUOTE: Just chalk this one up to experience and hope you can get a replacement caboose body. If so, put an 18 or 24 volt smoke unit and bulb in there (available from www.towncountryhobbies.com, amongst others). If you buy any lighted passenger car or locomotive, make sure the bulbs are 18 Volt or greater voltage before operating in a command environment.

You're kidding right? Chalk it up to experience and buy another smoke unit? Why should he. Lionel knows or should know that some of these units will be run in a command enviroment. This should not happen. Poor design. Call it like it is not the way you wish it would be.

[nblum]

Before TMCC was introduced, no user would have a constant 15 or 18V on the track, the locomotive would be off the table. The only possible problem was leaving the caboose on a siding with voltage applied as mentioned in the warning.

Just chalk this one up to experience and hope you can get a replacement caboose body. If so, put an 18 or 24 volt smoke unit and bulb in there (available from www.towncountryhobbies.com, amongst others). If you buy any lighted passenger car or locomotive, make sure the bulbs are 18 Volt or greater voltage before operating in a command environment. Another thing I've done with older passenger cars is put reflective aluminum tape or foil between the bulb and the plastic roof, which seems to keep things cooler for the plastic. Finally, if you have switches run from track power, make sure the bulbs are higher voltage than 14V (preferrably 18V or 24V) or the switch lanterns will melt. Been there and done that, my sympathies.

[spankybird]

They died from the fumes from the melting plastic !

[csxt30]

According to that picture, 2 guys are laying dead on the ground from it ! [:D][:D]

[1688torpedo]

Hi Tom! My e-mail address is the same as always. Roger.B- That was not good advice to give Tom. All Lionel has to do is Look at this forum for any reports of overheating Cabooses. Hope you meant it in jest. Take Care.

[spankybird]

Keith - that great news. You will have to send me your new e-mail address.

here is after the last 150 foot run. Look how much larger the hole has gotten



and this was at 14 volts only

[1688torpedo]

Tom- Your best bet may be Fred at Stewart's in Willoughby. He may have a shell and smoke generator for your caboose,Plus he could probably wire in a switch or rectifier circuit to lower the Track Voltage so that it does not overheat again. Take Care[:)]