Need Help from the experts!!! Please?

[Anonymous]

Hi guys & gals!
I am karl! I am 42 from baltimore, and have been collecting as far as I can remember. My father was a collector before me and he passed on the passion.
I have taken a 5-6 year break in collecting due to the fact that I started to collect skateboards and skateboard art. I have sold most of my skateboard collection and I am beginning to clean out my closet(s) of some of the trains i have. Nothing too major as they are still my favorite things to own(collecting wise).

I am more of a Standard Gauge collector, then I would say prewar tinplate, and finally 60's stuff(since that is what i grew up with)

I wanted to introduce myself first to be as respectful as possible because i have a question to ask the experts here. I always hated when people would come to the skate forums and ask questions without a proper intro or even a friendly hello, so I didn't want to do the same here!

I hope to hang around and learn some things!!!!

Okay, I am seriously thinking about ebaying this and I want to say that upfront!
I purchased it about 10 years ago at a Greenberg Auction(they were held right near baltimore so it was great)
I have done some research to the best of my ablility, but was hoping someone else could tell me more.

The set number is 1113 BUT it is not the 50's set. It is a Canadian version of the 1960 1107(I think) Texas Special set. Obviously it is uncatalouged. The set box is display style with green rather than the orange!

I guess i will post some pics to make it easier.

My question is how rare is this thing as i may just hang onto it(although I do need $$$$'s unfortunately) I had never seen another, nor have any of the guys I used to talk to this stuff with.

Any help is most appreciated!!!

Happy Thanksgiving!

i_r_taz

[Roger Bielen]

Welcome to the forum Karl, I don't have an answer for you but hang in here and I'm sure someone will have some info. With it being a holiday weekend I don't know how much action the post will see, if it starts falling off the page move it to the top by adding a comment.

I spent 15 years living in Pasadena, MD and our daughter still lives in Elkridge, sure miss friend in the area but not the congestion.

Good Luck.

[choochin3]

Hello Karl,
I am also a Carl from Baltimore!
I have seen a set like yours before, but I couldn't give you a value for it.
You might want to check the Greenbergs price guide to postwar sets.

Carl T.

[Dr. John]

Hi Karl and welcome to the forum!

Sounds like you have already done some good initial research. You obviously have a nice set in excellent+ condition. The box is a little banged up but everything seems to be there. Has it ever been run to your knowledge?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roger Bielen

Welcome to the forum Karl

I spent 15 years living in Pasadena, MD and our daughter still lives in Elkridge, sure miss friend in the area but not the congestion.

Good Luck.

Thank you for the Welcome!
I am in the Pikesville area and work in Catonsville. I used to live
down in Annapolis. Hit all the train shows in Odenton & Annapolis so i venture
to say we were probably at the same places at some time...ha ha ha!

karl

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by choochin3

Hello Karl,
I am also a Carl from Baltimore!
I have seen a set like yours before, but I couldn't give you a value for it.
You might want to check the Greenbergs price guide to postwar sets.

Carl T.

Hello Carl from Baltimore too!!!

The only book i have right now is the Volume III, Sets book!
I am sure it is an older version but that is pretty much where i
learned that it doesn't exist(at least at the time of the publiching of the book)

Of course that's when greenberg Publishing was doing the
books in Sykesville...LOL I am a tad bit out of the collecting
loop! ha ha ha!

karl(with a K) [:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dr. John

Hi Karl and welcome to the forum!

Sounds like you have already done some good initial research. You obviously have a nice set in excellent+ condition. The box is a little banged up but everything seems to be there. Has it ever been run to your knowledge?

Thank you for the welcome as well!!!!

I just took a good look at the set. Looks like there are run marks on the wheels but i don't think it saw a lot of time. Maybe a holiday runner that was kept in nice shape by it's owner. I have always been a little scared of the grading thing but there is also some wear to the yellow stripes on the 227. maybe just rub from the carton but excellent+ would be nice but me being a little more conservate would say excellent- ...LOL

I just sold a few things on ebay so it might be spared for now [:)]

I have a few more up if anyone is interested!

i_r_taz <--- on ebay too!

Or is it "evil bay" here too????

Oh, I was looking below in one of the threads and think i am inspired to
set up a platfrom under the tree this year. Now I don't know where it
should be Standard or O gauge...LOL

Karl

[Anonymous]

Hi Karl and welcome to the forums!

It's always great to have someone new join!

I'm also a collector of vintage trains. I'm a Canadian and so can help you out somewhat. Your set was sold by Eaton's in 1960. For many years, Eaton's was Canada's largest mail order retailer-the Canadian equivalent of Sears or Montgomery Ward. It is missing a grey 6045 two-dome tank car. Even here in Canada, it is hard to find (and extremely hard to find in the box!), although they obviously show up here far more often than in they do The States. It is a very popular set with collectors here, being the patriotic people that we are. I'll admit that I have never seen one of these sets in this box. I've seen a boxed example on ebay before with red like the Texas Special box instead of green. It didn't say Canadian National on it, but from what I remember, it didn't say Texas Special either.

Ultimately, the decision is yours. If you put it on ebay, it would stir up a lot of interest and sell for a very good price. However, while you may run across another Lionel 227 in your collecting adventures, you would almost certainly never find another set nearly as good as this one. To have one mint in the box with the instructions, billboards, etc. in perfect shape is an astounding find! If you do sell it on ebay, I would recommend picking up a 6045 tank car to go with it, even if it wasn't originally sold in that particular set (even if you don't sell it, it's something I'd definitely do anyway, just so that it's complete).

[Anonymous]

WoW! Now I am faced with a hard decision...LOL
Thank you as well for the welcome!

Are you 100% positive on the 6045???
I only ask because it is dead on the picture in the Greenberg Volume III, Set book
I have. That is the set 1107 of course with a different engine and box color, but
everything else is exactly the same! In 1960 it says the 2 dome car was taken out.
In 1959 though in set 1105 the 6045 was included. My wife just read this in the capion under the picture of the 1107 60' set in the Volume II Greenberg book.

What is also interesting is the back page of the instructions has 1105-10 printed on it, so i am guessing the paper work is generic from the 1105 set!

I probably have a 6045 in one of the closets!

Thank you for all the info. I knew someone here would have the answer!

Was there ever any catalog documenting this?
Do you remember if the set you saw on ebay had a set number on it???

Karl

[Dr.Fu-Manchu]

The Doctor is in!!! Karl, I found your set listed in the Greenburg Guide To Lionel Trains,1945-1969 Uncatalogued Sets: It came out in 1960, was most likely aimed at the Canadian market as others have said. The book says the same thing. It came with the #6045 Lionel Lines Tank Car, and it seems to be rare in the states. Also, I noticed your boxcar and gondola look lighter than the ones pictured in the book, Strange ? Here is the set consist from the book: 227P Canadian National Alco A unit; 6044 Airex boxcar; 6045 gray Lionel Lines tank car; 6042 blue gondola with canisters; 6047 SP-type caboose; 8 curved ,2 straight tracks & 1026 Transformer. The price in 1992(copyright date) is $275 in VG and $575 in LN condition. It also says the CN loco is worth more than the Texas Special and the tank car is both scarce and undervalued(this was in1992) Get the latest book and see if the info has changed. Also, the set #
was used for a catalouged set in 1949. The book is Vol.IV Uncatalouged sets. Hope this info helps you, And welcome aboard !
Till My Next Missive I Remain The Humble Yet Strangly Evil Doctor !!![}:)]

" I Have A ZW Tranformer And I Know How To Use It !!! "

[philo426]

You may be wise to hold on to this set.as it is in great,nearly unused condition and you may never find one like it again for a reasonable price.Just as an aside,how much did you pay for it when you bought it?

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the help and welcomes!!!

I have thought long and hard(so far) and I am still leaning toward a sale! I will
try to explain. First of all, I could use the money...LOL(who couldn't, right?)
Second, to be perfectly honest, I have alsolutely no attachment to this set, even after
hearing that it is one of the rarer ones out there. I asked both of my teens (16 & 18) and
niether of them seemed to be interested much in it either(or impressed by it's rarity.
The wife is saying sell so all things are pointing towards a sale.

I looked all over for the tank car, even in other sets, but I was suprised
to find I don't have one!

I also feel like this truely belongs in the hands of a Canadian collector, if it works
out that way. I am kind of hoping that what will happen if I put it up on ebay. It may
just make someones Holiday Season. [:)]

I will sleep on it tonight but I really think I am going to sell!

I just want to thank you all for your help and I will stick around
and try to be a productive new member of the forum!

karl

[M1Tanker]

I would keep it - things that came from my father and my grandfather mean a great deal to me. We all tick differently.

[Anonymous]

I bought this at a Greenberg Auction. I still have all of the family stuff I was given and I went out a few years ago and bought complete mint sets of each of the ones I had as a kids, just to have them as they were when I got them.

This I just bought at an auction and it wasn't for that much. It just seems that
there is someone out there who this would mean more to than myself. maybe someone
who had one as a kid in Canada and is looking to do what I did, pick up the sets they had as kids!

I know it's rare but still that really isn't why I collect. It's cool to have rare stuff
but I have plenty of rare stuff that actually has meaning.

karl

[Anonymous]

I want to thank you all for the info!!!!

I have listed it on ebay and made sure you all got thanked before anything!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6016965088

regards,

Karl

[Anonymous]

What else can i say but, THANK YOU!!!!!!

I knew I had come to the right place to find out about this
set! The auction just ended and I couldn't be happier.
Unfortunately, I needed the money more than the set and it
really worked out two fold. The set was worth much more than
I ever expected so I think I can go ahead and get the Lionel
Holiday set and maybe even the expansion set now and pay the
bills I needed to pay!

Thank you all so much!
I am so glad i am back into trains again and so
glad I found a cool community like this!
I hope I can contribute to the forum as well!

regards,

Karl / i_r_taz

[4kitties]

Wow, Karl, congratulations! Apparently your set has some strong collector interest.

Welcome to the forum!

Joel

[Anonymous]

$1034.09! Not bad! Glad to see that it sold for a good price. I would have loved to buy it myself, but that's a bit out of my price range. I guess I'll have to be content with my onboxed example of the set for now.

[jschmid]

Karl,

I'm writing a book on Lionel's promotional outfits in the 1960's based on actual Lionel documentation. Sorry..I didn't catch your post earlier...but it appears everything worked out just fine.

Based on Lionel documents, the set you sold is 100% correct, so don't worry about trying to find anything else.

Lionel issued 6 similar low end outfits in 1960, all with just a few changes. Some had the tank car, others didn't. This one didn't.

Even though the quantity made was high, it is not the easiest set to come across as these were starter sets that made there way into many a child's hands. I've only seen one in my travels and another (not as nice) sold on eBay earlier this year for $899.

Congrats on the price received, I'm sure both buyer and seller are happy.

John Schmid
www.projectroar.com

[Anonymous]

Thank you for the info John!
I have to say I was happy it met the reserve, and shocked when I refreshed
with only about 20 seconds left to go! I took the set out a few times just to open the
box and look at it but i was never really excited about the set. Maybe because it wasn't
one of the higher end or more publicized sets from that era.

I think the day I bought the Canadian National I also bought a Boston & Maine set(with the darker purplish boxcar) and the Santa Fe passenger set(or is it texas Special??) It is from the mid 60's whichever it is....ha ha ha! All were boxed in extremely nice condition so I have to admit I was more excited about the other two.

i was one of those kids that these sets made into the hands of!!!
Plastic was wonderful because it burnned...HA HA HA HA HA!!!!
The pre-war kids shot up the tin plate stuff with BB Guns and the 60's
kids I guess burned and just like to destroy things [:D]

I remember taking cars and racing them down the straights so they would
fly off the curve and hit the wall and explode into pieces. I myself helped make many cars very rare...LOL
I hope this doesn't speak to my generation [:)]

Anyway, I think it's great you are writing a book on these sets and I look forward to
picking it once available. My email is taz123(at)gmail.com please add me to your mailing/announcement list if you would.

And thanks again guys!!!
I did pick up the 2005 Holiday's Set. This is the first Lionel set made after 1969 that I have intentionally gone out and bought. I based alot of the decision on what you guys here had to say and i am actually very excited awaiting its arrival!!!

Merry Christmas & a Happy Holidays to all!

regards,

Karl / i_r_taz

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jschmid

Karl,

I'm writing a book on Lionel's promotional outfits in the 1960's based on actual Lionel documentation. Sorry..I didn't catch your post earlier...but it appears everything worked out just fine.

Lionel issued 6 similar low-end outfits in 1960, all with just a few changes. Some had the tank car, others didn't. This one didn't.

John Schmid
www.projectroar.com

John, I have a Lionel low end set from 1960-1965. It is the Rio Grande set sold at Western Auto Stores with a yellow engine, a satellite car, LV hopper car and a yellow work caboose. No automatic couplers.

I found out in the 1990's that my red satellite car was somewhat rare. Most of them were green.

Does any of this story make sense?

[Anonymous]

Hey Buckeye!
i think I actually pieced together that set for my son!
No set box but it was fun to hunt down the pieces. We used to hit the shows
when he was younger, buy an engine and then look in the
set book for the other pieces that came in the set. It was a fun way to
get him excited about going to the shows and he was always excited to
find the cars. I guess it was self serving too...ha ha ha!!!!

Karl

[jschmid]

Buckeye,

It sounds like you have Advance Catalog outfit no. 11011 from 1962. This included :

222P Denver & Rio Grande Alco
3510 Satellite Launching Car
6076 Hopper Car - Red
6120 Work Caboose

The "red" satellite car is a 3510 which Greenberg lists at $40 for Good and $140 for Excellent. The 3510 also came in at least 8 other promotional outfits. Yes, it is more difficult to find than its "green" 3509 sibling. It was a "cheaper" version of this car with non-operating trucks and couplers.

As for the value of the entire outfit. These have sold from $250 to $500 on eBay with the box, trains and all peripherals. The low end would be a C7 and the higher end about C8.

Advance Catalog outfits were sold through numerous retailers, so it is likely that Western Auto also carried them. Although, this set does not show up in a 1962 WA catalog. If it was specifically for WA, it would also have an "ECxxx" number stamped on it, as that was WA's catalog numbering scheme.

Good luck,

John
www.projectroar.com

[Buckeye Riveter]

John,
Thanks for the information. The Rio Grande Alco does not have a reverse feature or the automatic couplers. My satellite car has all the pieces and it still works fine after 40 years.

I know as a kid I was somewhat dissappointed when I found out that a kid in school had a new Lionel with automatic couplers and I did not.

Again, thanks for the interesting facts and figures.