DCS: Is it really THAT hard???

[Kooljock1]

I just read the DCS article in today's issue of CTT. Maybe I'm just a technophobe, but that thing gives me the willies! Just the photo of the wiring harnesses for the "simple" layout shown is beyond what I call "fun".

The reason I got into TMCC was because all it took was ONE wire and a plug in the wall. No matter what I do with the track plan, it works every time.

And what's this deal with the ipod? They call it a 21st Century Walkman. I thought the Walkman was 21st Century. But then, I still rely on my trusty transistor radio is full-spectrum monaural sound!

The last thing I want to hear is Brittney Spears howling from the tender of a K4. But maybe it's just me. Am I an old fogey at 41?

Jon [8D]

[bikerraypa]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kooljock1

....The last thing I want to hear is Brittney Spears howling from the tender of a K4.

Jon [8D]

Maybe the firebox? [:D]

Nope, if you're an old fogey at 41, I'm an old fogey at 31.

Ray out

[ChiefEagles]

I ran from it for days [bought it and stored it]. Then one day, I did it. Nothing at all. I do recommend the OGR video.

[Anonymous]

OGR passed on that article, and the appearance of requiring an electrical engineering degree may be why. DCS really isn't that complicated. My layout is wired to run conventional, and then I inserted the TIU, big deal. I've talked several people in to getting DCS when all they previously had was conventional. They too were able to insert the TIU in between the transformer and track and immediately reap the rewards of their PS2 engines. Only one had to go as far as to add a light bulb to his terminal strip to get an improved signal.

Jamie is really smart when it comes to wiring layouts, but perhaps that article did little good to persuade a newbie in this hobby to try out DCS.

[Anonymous]

I have not recieved my copy of the magazine yet, but am looking forward to reading Jamie's article.

I have been on both sides of the fence on the wiring issue. In most cases, all you have to do (as Rod M. stated) is to insert the TIU into the existing wiring and it works-Period. I was able to have DCS working on the Super O layout my Dad built for me in the 1960's in about five minutes.

Occasionally, on a large or more complex layout, one will have to install special wiring to get things to work properly. On the other hand, you only wire it once and, if you do it right, its done forever, so it is not a big deal.

I have read a lot of Jamie's posts on the OGR Forum, and find him to be very knowledgeable on the subject of DCS.

Again, I have not read the article yet, but I am sure that it is well written.

[jonadel]

Hey Kooljock,

Don't let the article scare you, IT IS VERY EASY TO OPERATE. I am electrically "challenged" from the get go and mine worked flawlessly from the very beginning. I think I'm a pretty good example of the typical person who is a bit aprehensive about trying something unfamiliar and once I started hooking it up I had it running in less than 5 minutes, it's that easy. I have added non MTH loco's and they run perfectly. I used block terminals and lock on's and I have yet to have one problem in 3+ years of operation. I did struggle one day with an engine and it turned out to be "operator error", my own fault.

The OGR video is an absolute must, I still look at it about once a year and learn something new each time.

Jon

[wrmcclellan]

The article is very accurate and lines up with many posts I have made about large layout wiring in the past with TMCC and DCS such as on our club layout. The wiring techniques shown for the power and signal distribution are exactly what I and Rick B did 3+ years ago. The point is you have to be careful with the signal runs as DCS is a very sophisticated RF signal being propagated down the wire pair, which act as a transmission line.

The analogy I have always used is most of you here remember the old twin lead wire you or your parents used to bring the TV signal from the roof mounted antenna to your set. If that wire degraded, your reception went bad. No difference with DCS. The wires to your layout act as a twin lead transmission line and they must be installed fairly cleanly to avoid signal distribution problems.

The article is an excellent article and serves as a guide for wiring a large layout regardless of whether one runs DCS or not.

Regards,
Roy

[Anonymous]

Although I've not yet seen the article, I have used DCS (on an admittedly small layout) and must say that I had no problem at all connecting and using it. There are a lot of features to experiment with and learn, but seeing a DCS-equipped locomotive do all that it can do is the reward for just a bit of patience. As I see it, it's a very versatile system, with nearly infinite expansion capabilities. The OGR video is a big help in learning about and understanding all that DCS can do.

I figure that if I can hook it up and make it work properly, anybody can do it.

[Anonymous]

Nothing complicated about it, especially if you consider what all you have to do when using TMCC.

DCS = 1 TIU + 1 AIU---- Period
(AIU is optional, but not needed unless you want your switches or accesories remote controlled)

TMCC = an endless list of sold seperately gizmos to achieve everything DCS can do.

The only thing you need to do with DCS is run extra feeder wires from a central terminal strip, to get a good signal thru the entire layout.

[FJ and G]

Jon,

Brittney can visit my basement layout any time she likes. :-)

Actually, DCS simplifies a large layout like Tony Lash's (wish he'd post more about his layout in this forum, btw).

Without DCS, say, if Tony were using conventional block controls with relays, the amount of wiring and stuff would be outrageous.

The article, admittedly, looks intimidating (I'm still reading the article), but as some have mentioned, it is not that hard.

Within hours, I was not only running DCS, but programming locomotives to do tricks like recordings and loops.

In fact, I brought my DCS setup to work today and will put on a demonstration for the folks at my work. Will eventually post some photos.

DCS rules!

[eZAK]

"TMCC = an endless list....."
Not really! All you need is a Cab-1, Com base, TPC, & SC-2.

"......... with DCS is run extra feeder wires........"
Plus the unnessary & added expense of the compoents and your time.

[Anonymous]

Have a large layout with DCS and TMCC. Layout is wired such that power feeds from Z400 through TIU and then distributed to the track in a star configuration utilizing 16AWG with the hub located near the TIU. 18V bulb is utilized at the hub. Ground is distributed to multiple layout points with 10AWG and then soldered to track with 16 AWG. Track is Gargraves with all center rails and grounds soldered. Power and ground feeds are soldered to track. Engines typically return 9's and 10's signal strength on the entire layout.

The problem is that the layout will run flawlessly for a period of time and then an engine will suddenly "not be found" or "out of range" errors occur. Sometimes cycling the power helps but not consistently. The layout employs Z4000s and 2 TIUs. The TIUs and hand helds have been swapped out with brand new units that were "tuned up at the factory" to address the problem.

About the only thing that differs from the recent CTT article is that the wire is not run as a power/ground pair to the track.

Any ideas out there?

[wrmcclellan]

wisnis - first - Welcome to the CTT forum [#welcome]

We have found on our club layout that large numbers of powered, but parked engines (DCS and TMCC) can foul things up. As we added switches to kill power to sidings, things improved significantly.

We have also found that some engines when parked, but powered, near where the TIU feeds the layout have caused some interference (we do not know why - we just happened to move them and the problem went away).

Even with the parked and powered engines, DCS signal levels are 9s and 10s. We can only assume they are providing a bit of interference in terms of signal reflections, but not signal loss.

Regards,
Roy

[Anonymous]

Roy,
That's unfortunate that you would have to install cut-off switches for the sidings as one of the big advantages of modern digital control is that you don't (or shouldn't) have to do all of the crazy block wiring and toggle installation that was necessary on a conventional layout.

[lionelsoni]

I attach Microswitches to my track switches to route power to sidings, so that wiring is very local.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Roy that the advantage of the modern system should be that you don't need to add all the extra control switches/wiring or place locomotives in specific locations. I'm going to continue my search for the optimal solution that provides the intended operation.

Another question we should be asking is: Where's MTH? Shouldn't they be providing the answers to these questions?

[wrmcclellan]

graz,

In addition to the above, there are several reasons to cut off sidings...

1. With many parked engines and passenger trains on our club layout, one starts to draw several amps which detract from the ability to run trains in the power district controlled by that TIU. Remember a TIU can only handle about 10 amps per port. If you eat up 4-5 amps with parked stuff, that double headed lighted passenger train may exceed the TIUs capability.

2. To preserve the lifetime of bulbs in the equipment. Remember they are all running at full votlage.

3. To prevent runaway equipment that sometimes happens when someone accidentally removes a critical control signal (like TMCC) and all engines launch at full speed. Yes this stuff happens on a club layout when some folks mess with things they should not.

4. To prevent an engine or train being moved accidentally due to a duplicate loco number (TMCC case) and the operator doesn't know he is moving two trains on different areas of the layout.

5. To prevent an operator that has a duplicate loco (DCS case), i.e. two different UP 0-6-0 Switchers on the layout, yet unique loco # in the DCS handheld, and he is controlling the wrong one, doesn't understand why the one he is looking at is not moving and the other one is taking off as he keeps increasing the speed!

Regards,
Roy

[FJ and G]

Roy,

6. at my home layout, I'm having power cutoffs on spurs to park conventional locomotives, which I operate separately from command control-equiped.

7. When I'm programming a locomotive, I shut off power to the other locomotives completely

[Anonymous]

Roy,
I'm not saying that conventional power cut-offs don't have merit. I'm just saying that their installation shouldn't be REQUIRED to make the digital control system perform without error. One of the original selling points for digital (before DCS) was that you can have many locos on the same layout and even the same tracks with no issue and no block wiring. I would not accept the idea of having to install toggles. I would want MTH to offer a reason and a solution.
I recall that one of the guys on the OGR forum whom is in the NJ highrailers club mentioned that DCS was giving them some fits on the large club layout. Not sure if they ever found a fix.

[Anonymous]

No matter how people try to slice it, TMCC is both easier and less expensive as a control system to run trains. Now DCS has some very nice advanced features, but i really dont need to hear the engineer sneeze or a couple having an argument in the sleeper car.[:D] I have enjoyed my TMCC ever since the day i bought it, and it has performed flawlessly over two years. If you want more bells and wistles, by all means, go for DCS. However if you want something that works, easy to install, and is easy to understand buy TMCC.
Bill

[wrmcclellan]

graz,

I certainly empathize with your viewpoint. Unfortunately limited marketplaces like toy and scale model trains, coupled with some venders reluctance to not share their technology to allow other manufacturers to drive improvements lead to these type of issues, where one has to depend almost exclusively on a forum to get answers.

TMCC, DCS, and DCC all have issues that can make operation challenging. I have worked extensively with all of these technologies. None of them is perfect.

If you want a comparison, I wish my PC and its peripherals worked as well and as reliably as TMCC, DCS, or DCC.

BTW - there is a solution to part of the problem you wi***o solve. You can install any of these technologies into all your equipment and turn off lights and what have you. TMCC and DCC will do this at less cost per car than DCS as DCS has no counterpart at this time to the various TMCC compatible products for in-car accessory control (e.g. the Mini-Commander from Electric RR) since MTH at this time is not allowing anyone else to license their technology as Lionel and the DCC manufacturers have.

Regards,
Roy

[Railrunnin]

IN A WORD: NO! DCS = Doesn't Come Simpler, read on.....

My friend Noel aka Lackamoney, has wanted to try DCS on his layout. Yesterday I brought over my TIU and Handheld. Noel has a reputation at the club for having a dark, technology impaired cloud over his head. Here is my report:

Well who would have thunk it would go so easy? Noel and I had a great time yesterday hooking up DCS to the two mainlines on his roughly 14x18 layout. It was tough going at first, took us at least 10 minutes to unhook the wires and rewire for DCS :)

We started cautiously. One engine, Lackawanna Northern I think, on the outside track. After some rudimentary instructions the handheld was turned over to Noel. Noel was soon engrossed in many of the features of DCS. He liked the fact his engine wasn't identified as Engine 1, or Engine 42... It was identified as Lackawanna Northern Roadnumber XXXX. So far so good, but Noel was still acting cautiously, the only remedy for that was to put another engine on the same track ;)

Let me cut to the chase: Soon we had THREE engines running on track one and TWO engines running on track two all being controlled by the master of Technology (NOT) aka Noel. There were Northerns and Camelbacks and Lackawannas Oh My. He went back and forth from controlling them independently to controlling them all together. He even allowed my NS GP38 to share the rails. A DIESAL ON NOELS LAYOUT!!!

There was smoke pouring and when the whistles were all sounded at once it was something to behold. Noel was on his toes keeping the engines spaced nicely apart and watching wide eyed as he controlled all five engines. Then Noel put the inner loops into action running some Postwar and other stuff and soon there he was, in control of 10 separate trains. We were engulfed in noise, smoke, fun,, smoke fluid refills on the fly, and general mayhem. I don't know who had more fun, but big smiles were the order of the day.

We did have some mishaps on the inner loops. I think we traced the derailments to a wayward boom catching the train on the next track in the tunnel. Why is it always in the tunnel?

Noel was surprised when I told him not to unhook DCS and enjoy it for a couple of weeks. I did suggest that maybe he should start off solo with less than 5 engines on the track. Four and a half hours flew by like 20" and I had to take my leave. As I'm walking out the door, Ginny presented me with a half of a loaf of fresh baked raisin nut bread. It was perfect after the gym.

DCS, Doesn't Come Simpler: Now endorsed by the Master of Technology - Our Own Noel Lackamoney. More days should be like that.

Paul J Licata

[Anonymous]

Can you really say that one plug into the wall, and one wire to the track is not the easiest to set up? One wire runs my entire multilevel layout. And yes, i cna run multiple trains at once also. So unless DCS has no wires and it runns off of air currents, then TMCC is indeed the easier to set up and run.
Bill

[spankybird]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wisnis

....
The problem is that the layout will run flawlessly for a period of time and then an engine will suddenly "not be found" or "out of range" errors occur. Sometimes cycling the power helps but not consistently. The layout employs Z4000s and 2 TIUs. The TIUs and hand helds have been swapped out with brand new units that were "tuned up at the factory" to address the problem.

Any ideas out there?

HI wisnis,

Welcome to the CTT forum


Here are a couple of things to check when you are having problems

1. How fresh are the batteries in your remote. I doubt if this is the problem, but it’s worth checking.
2. Is there a cell or cordless phone in the area being used. One friend of mine has this problem. If he is on his cell phone and hits the direction button, it cut off his cell phone.
3. Are your TIU in a vertical (upright) position [?]
4. If you are inclined to remover the cover off the TIU and remote, check the position of the antennas

tom [;)]

[snsntt]

TMCC is the better choice. I've used it for years with no problems.
It took MTH several years to release the TIU because of the signal problems and it seems the problem has not been fully solved....yet. I have an equal number of MTH and Lionel engines and love them all, but I am not going to rewire my layout (36X22) just for DCS.

Joe

[Anonymous]

Granted, with 1 plug & 1 set of wires & a Cab1, you'll have basic funtions with TMCC, but you won't have full controll of the entire layout, like DCS does with just 3 items: Remote / TIU / AIU.

This picture says it all:
http://ca.geocities.com/ambassador_martok/1dayfiles/DCS-TMCC.jpg

[waltrapp]

One more to add to Roy's list, and Dave's followup:

8. Since power is going to the PS2 engine, even if it is shut down the internal timer is ticking. I suppose this only matters if you plan on selling it some day. Me, I toggle switch my sidings just because I don't like power running thru the engines when not in use. Paranoid I guess.

- walt

[Anonymous]

No DCS isn't that hard, but it isn't as easy as that picture makes it seem. I notice the TMCC system shows connecting cables, yet the DCS system does not. And, if you want to compare apples to apples, the DCS picture should also include the famous light bulbs. 3 years later, and still not a better solution?

Both are fine systems, and have their good points and bad.

If you wan to run MTH engines in command , buy DCS. If you want to run Lionel, K-Line, Atlas, Weaver, 3rd Rail in command , buy TMCC.

If you want to run them all, buy both.

[cnw1995]

Yeesh, reading this gives me the willies. I know it must be easier than it looks in print but I'm going home to hug my R transformer...

[FJ and G]

Tom,

Didn't know TIU needs to be in vertical position. I lay mine flat.

Also, I think the batteries in my handheld need charging as the handheld turns off every couple of minutes, even when I'm continually using it.